19000 From: James Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > =============================== > It's not that the Buddha didn't know "how it all began," but rather > that he made no assumption of a beginning and, in fact, stated that no > beginning is known or evident. In fact, it seems to me that the assertion > that all (worldly) dhammas arise due to conditions already logically implies > no "first cause". > Now, the Patthana is an attempt at describing the varieties of > relationships holding among conditioned dhammas. It serves as a parallel > system, I believe, to the scheme of dependent origination. Now, whether it is > due to the Buddha or not, and whether *any* of the Abhidhamma is due to the > Buddha or not, I don't think that there is any contradiction between an > attempt to lay bare all possible interconnections among conditioned dhammas > and the fact/assumption of no first cause. > > With metta, > Howard Howard, I found the post by Sarah and she had written, "You asked in one post (not in front of me, so apologies for any misparaphrasing) what causes or brings about these dhammas. The answer is the combination of the 24 conditions as enumerated in detail in the last book of the Abhidhamma, the Pattana (AKA the Great Book). We read that when it came to contemplating the Great Book, multi-coloured rays issued from the Buddha's body." Actually, Sarah had misparaphrased me and I had misparaphrased her in my post. So never mind. But I do find it interesting that anyone might believe the Buddha actually contemplated `The Great Book' since writing wasn't invented in India until several hundred years after his death…and then it was writing on palm leaves. A 6,000 page book would probably equate to 600,000 palm leaves, or more. And it would be quite impossible for the Buddha to verbally teach 6,000 pages of information and for monks to memorize that. And would he even want to? What if it was actually 6,001 pages and someone forgot a page? Dang! There goes the whole thing! Metta, James 19001 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 5:32pm Subject: Thus have I heard (was Re: accumulations and Abhidhamma) Hi Swee Boon, A rupa is something one can experience. An atom is something one cannot experience. Brain chemistry is to me a valid inference based on what happens to perception and thinking when different type of pharmacologically active substances are ingested. I do not care for your assessments of my intelligence or lack thereof. You would do me a favour by omitting that sort of judgment. There is not one single word in any language which is not conceptual in nature. Raw experience is the only non-conceptual reality. Discussion of experience is always conceptual. Discussion of chemistry is conceptual. Discussion of Dhamma is conceptual. Rupas are part of direct experience. I have previously asserted that Western science tends to view matter as existing outside of experience. Buddhism does not say that. You can keep asking the same questions, you will keep getting the same answers, or none at all. All I want to say beyond this is that the culture within which one is raised tends to be a predictor for the type of beliefs clung to by those given to unquestioning faith. A fervent and zealous person raised in India may be a Hindu, and strongly express Hindu beliefs. A fervent and zealous person born in the Middle East may strongly express Muslim beliefs. A person raised in Ireland may strongly express Roman Catholics views. Of course this is not a hard and fast rule. For example, many people on this list have critically analysed and rejected, either in part or wholly, their "birth religion". And many critically analyse and digest all manner of Buddhist fare that is placed before them. Unquestioning faith is a vital ingredient if the social cohesion of large masses of people is considered important. This is why unquestioning faith is highly praised in many cultures by the ruling elites of those cultures. Expressions of faith, then, say nothing about reality, they speak only of group membership. For me expressions of undigested, unanalysed faith are just a long winded way of saying "I was born here". All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > That you consider rupas equivalent to atoms and molecules is up > > to you. For me, an atom or a molecule is at best an ideal > > representation, a concept, a thought. What does that make it? > > I am amazed by your reasoning. Not because it is intelligent. > > If atoms and molecules are merely concepts, why bother to talk about > brain chemical reactions? Why bother to believe that there are > chemical reactions taking place in the brain? What bother to talk > about Chemistry? > > Amazing is your reasoning. > > > > I cannot enlighten. It normaly requires the shedding of views > dearly > > clung to. Only you can do that. > > > But the Abhidhamma is not a handbook of physical science. > > The Abhidhamma is the study of experience. > > > Much Western science goes out of its way to avoid the role > consciousness > > plays in all knowing. Western science posits that it's knowledge > and > > principles exist consciousness notwithstanding. This is contrary > to > > Buddhism alltogether. > > If rupas are not "matter", what are they? Please enlighten (which > really means explain; we all know it is impossible for anyone to > nlighten anyone). > > > > > That's where you are wrong. The Abhidhamma is a very thorough > > > analysis of both "mind" and "matter". > > > Yes, I did, no you didn't. Yes you are, no you are not. This is > > futile. Yes it is. > > If you think you are right, please address directly the issue as to > why rupas are not "matter". Such a clever but evasive counter > response is not conducive to Dhamma talk. > > > > If you have criteria as to what answers you will accept before you > > have heard them, then that could indicate a closed mind. > > If you really *know* that "Brain Chemical Reaction A corresponds to > Thought X", you would be able to explain the process by which you > know without using analogies. > > Once again, you have chosen to give a clever though evasive counter > response. > > > > Knowing requires experience, as opposed to faith which appeals > when > > the void is too close to home. Knowing requires no faith, untested > > faith is clinging. > > Knowing requires experience, you are correct. If that is the case, > why can't you describe the experience by which you *know* > that "Brain Chemical Reaction A corresponds to Thought X"? > > > > I concur with James, though I cannot publicly advocate you taking > > drugs. This would contravene laws in any number of countries, and > > could upset some people. > > Nobody is stopping you from doing so. > > > > Why don't you tell me about the thoughts of immaterial beings? > > I don't have abhinna powers, so I can't read the contents of the > minds of immaterial beings. But through insight that discriminates > the distinction between rupas and namas, I am able to infer that > immaterial beings do not possess rupas like us humans. Immaterial > beings are merely namas. > > > > > By the way, your statement "There is no mind without the body. > There is no body > > > without the mind." is in direct contradiction with what the > Buddha taught. > > > Neither you or I know, in any sense of the word, what the Buddha > taught. > > Neither you nor I know, in any sense of the word, whether the Buddha > existed or not. Does that invalidate the Dhamma? > > > Still, I'm sure he wouldn't mind me discussing from a position > that > > doesn't require the blind acceptance of things not understood. > > "And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with > merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is > offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & > bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & > father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & > contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim > this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for > themselves.' This is the right view that has fermentations, sides > with merit, & results in acquisitions. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > > Since it is impossible for us to know if there are indeed > spontaneously reborn beings, does that mean that it is impossible to > possess right view that has fermentations? > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19002 From: bodhi2500 Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 7:40pm Subject: The All Hi Folks My understanding is that in relation to "The All" Sutta (S.N. 35:23) that according to the commentaries Nibbana is to be included in "The All" under Dhammaa. In the next Sutta, Pahaanasutta.m (S.N.35:24) it says that "The all" is to be abandoned. Is the commentaries take on this that All Dhamma's including Nibbana are abandoned at Parinibbana? (which I think I saw in a post on DSG somewhere??) Also in the next few Suttas of the same section of the Samyutta it seems to say this same "All" (dhammaa) is "burning", "weighed down" and subject to birth,aging and is anicca etc. Can someone please explain the Commentaries take on these Sutta's. Thank you. Steve. 19003 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:50pm Subject: Re: Patthana Hi Swee Boon, But the Buddhist scheme of things does allow for an end point , or a "final cause" if you will, to a forward recursion, does it not? Or is unbinding a condition for further conditions? All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Howard, > > > In fact, it seems to me that the assertion that all (worldly) > > dhammas arise due to conditions already logically implies > > no "first cause". > > I had once pondered on this issue. My conclusion is the same as > yours. > > If the present moment depends on a previous moment to arise, then > all previous moments that had arisen must also require another > previous moment to arise as well. > > If we apply the above recursive definition indefinitely, a "start > point" simply cannot be discerned. It recurses forever. There is no > base case where we can stop the recursion. > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19004 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: All in a days work Hi Christine, --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: > The problem (and the great benefit) with having Good Friends in the > Dhamma is your rather merciless reminders of the Teachings. It's > comforting in an exasperating sort of way though, along the lines > of 'Well isn't that typical, I just KNEW they'd say that! ... :-) .... Like a stuck record..... so now you KNOW what we're all going to say, maybe you can ask the questions AND give the various replies;-) Glad to see you smiling, Metta, Sarah ====== 19005 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical Basis [was: All in a days work] Hi Victor, --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Now that I know that Raja Sutta is what you were referring to, maybe > we can continue the discussion we had before. .... That would be fine - no discussion is ever closed as far as I'm concerned(unless the moderators say it's off-topic;-)) ..... > We did understand/interpret this discourse differently: I think the > significance of Raja Sutta is that the Buddha's utterance points out > the rationale/basis of ethics in his teaching: ..... Why don't you start by summarising the different interpretations we both gave before and the rationale for these and perhaps we can look to see if we can find any middle ground. I agree with your comment above. ..... Metta, Sarah ===== > Searching all directions > with one's awareness, > one finds no one dearer > than oneself. > In the same way, others > are fiercely dear to themselves. > So one should not hurt others > if one loves oneself. 19006 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Dear Htoo Naing, Welcome to DSG and I hope you find it useful and enjoyable here! It is clear that you have extensively studied the Dhamma (inc. Abhidhamma) and it’s great to have your ‘expertise’ here. I agree that we need to always keep in mind the distinction between book knowledge and practical knowledge and I like the way you are considering so carefully. I also agree with all your comments on another thread about rupas and science, but others may not give you such an easy time;-) Is your name Burmese, I wonder and when you mention your childhood and Dhamma study, was this in Burma? Where do you live now (if you don’t mind sharing a little about yourself)? I look forward to more of your contributions and enthusiasm for the Abhidhamma. Metta, Sarah ===== --- "htootintnaing " wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > As a newcomer I would like to say to you all ''Hello''.I am fond of > Dhamma.Talking anything related to Dhamma never makes me tired.I talk > sincerely and I show all my feelings and belief in exchange for > other's.More sensible thing is to talk on practical matters.But any > topics or issues are welcome to discuss. > > I still remember my childhood. 19007 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha as Medicine? Hi Dharam, I’m particularly glad that you’ve joined us because Sukin had mentioned you to me and particularly your keen interest in studying life and Dhamma. Like you suggest, some aspects we read about are common to other religions too and the words and labels are not important. I think your current discussions on Dukkha with TG and others are very interesting. I’m a bit behind with my reading, so I won’t make many comments for now. You may have already been checking out the ‘Useful Posts’, a few of the very many helpful posts on specific topics from the archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts In particular, if you look under ‘Dukkha’, I think you’ll find some posts discussing details about the 3 kinds of dukkha. I think you are mostly discussing the first kind - ‘dukkha dukkha’ referring to unpleasant bodily and mental experiences. The second kind refers to the nature of change and the third is the ultimate meaning of dukkha (as taught in the 4 Noble Truths) and referring to the impermanent nature of conditioned realities. That which is conditioned and impermanent is unsatisfactory and not-self. I believe it is this last meaning of dukkha that is only taught by the Buddha and applicable to all phenomena (except nibbana). So may I ask if you live in India and whether you have always been interested in considering these questions? I’m glad you feel so at home on DSG and happy to shout out if you need any clarification or wish to discuss any points. Your posts are very eloquent and you don’t need any assistance in expressing your well-considered points for sure. Sukin is a good friend and if you are able to encourage him to share more of his good understanding of Dhamma with us all, we’ll all (or mostly all;-)) be very grateful. I like to quote the follow reminder to him about how we’re ‘on fire’ most the time. It may be appropriate for you as well.(If anyone looks in the photo album for Sukin, it will be apparent why): ..... "Just as a man whose clothes or turban are on fire would apply his utmost zeal and energy, effort and exertion, as well as mindfulness and clear comprehension, so that he may extinguish the fire; even so, the monk should apply his utmost zeal and energy...for the abandoning of those evil, unwholesome qualities.” (‘Self Examination’, AN, Bk of Tens,51, B.Bodhi transl) ..... Look forward to more of your good topics and posts and discussion with TG, Chris and others. Metta, Sarah ===== 19008 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Control Hi James, Ray & All (Footnote for Jim & Suan). I appreciated all the sutta quotes you both gave on the ‘Control’ theme very much. Some are quite interesting. I have the Udana and detailed commentary out, so let me just follow up on one: --- "James " wrote: ************ > Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that > occasion exclaimed: > Little thoughts, subtle thoughts, > when followed, stir up the heart. > Not comprehending the thoughts of the heart, > one runs here & there, > the mind out of control. > But comprehending the thoughts of the heart, > one who is ardent, mindful, > restrains them. > When, followed, they stir up the heart, > one who is awakened > lets them go without trace. > Udana IV.1; Meghiya Sutta > ******************************************************** This links nicely to the ‘Day’s Work’ thread and is an example of a verse that can fit into any theory;-) I need to give Masefield’s translation not because it is necessarily better but just so that the following Commentary notes make sense: ***** “Petty (khuddaa) thoughts, subtle thoughts, when gone along with are the mind’s elation (uppilaavaa). The one who fathoms not these thoughts of mind, onto this and that his careering consciousness (bhantacitto) darts, whilst the one who fathoms these thoughts of mind to be the mind’s elation (uppilaave), being ardent, being one possessing mindfulness, restrains them. Those not come up (anuggate), these the one enlightened has abandoned without remnant.” Commentary notes for the lines starting with “ Not comprehending...” in the first translation and “The one who fathoms not...” in the second: “........... ‘The one who fathoms not these thoughts of mind ‘(ete avidvaa manaso vitakke): the one not knowing as they really are, these thoughts (that have arisen) in the mind (manovitakke), such as thought connected with sense-desires and so on, through full understanding by way of knowing, by way of judging and by way of abandoning , as to their sweet taste, peril and the exiting (from same). ’Onto this and that* his careering cosciousness darts’(huraahura,m dhaavati bhantacitto): on account of the fact of wrong thought not having been abandoned, his unsettled consciousness darts to and fro, zigzags, by way of their sweet taste and so on, onto this object and that by way of “sometimes onto a sight, sometimes onto a sound”(kadaacit ruupe, kadaaci sadde) and so forth. Or alternatively, ‘from there to there his careering consciousnes darts (huraa hura,m dhaavati bhantacitto): on account of the fact of (such) thought not having been fully understood, his mental activity that is of a zigzaging nature through being under the sway of ignorance and craving that are attributable thereto(tannimittaana.m; to the fact of (such) thoughts not having been fully understood), darts to and fro, meaning runs on, from this world to the next world (idhalokato paraloka.m) by way of taking up and laying down (of bodies). ‘Whilst the one who fathoms these thoughts of mind (ete ca vidvaa manuso vitakke): whereas (pana) the one knowing as they really are these thoughts (that have arisen) in the mind, such as thought connected with sense-desires and so on that admit of the aforementioned divisions, as to their sweet taste and so forth. ‘Being ardent’ (aataapiyo): being one possessing energy. ‘Restrains them (sa.mvarati): holds them in check < croos ref to Ud-a 191 re ‘restraint by way of knowledge’, referring to vipassana and then knowledge of nibbana>. “Being one possessing mindfulness (satimaa): being one possessed of mindfulness (satissampanno)............” ***** I’ll leave the Commentary here on this point of developing mindfulness and understanding. Without being able to give the italics and adding the Pali notes in places makes it quite confusing to read, I know. Anyone who follows these notes can draw their own conclusions. When I read it, I read a description of the importance of the development of satipatthana - no self, no ultimate control in the consciousness or mental states involved. Like the suttas I mentioned yesterday from MN (19 and 20), by developing mindfulness and understanding, the distinction between wholesome and unwholesome consciousness and thinking on account of what is seen, heard and so on becomes more and more apparent and the urgency to get out of the ‘cess-pool’ more and more urgent. What do you both think? Metta, Sarah *Jim, Suan - long detailed footnote on ‘ so plavati (huraahura.m)’, ‘upplavati’ and so on with reference to Norman’s article. Above my head for now;-) (Suan, talking about all on fire as I just was, I'm thinking of you and Ven Yanatharo when seeing the fires in Canberra - hope all's well with you). =========================-== 19009 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 0:07am Subject: Re: Ekagatta Cetasika & Concentration [Re: [dsg] Re: unconditioned state] Hi Howard, As usual, a little late but not forgotten;-) --- upasaka@a... wrote: H:> If ekagatta cetasika means concentration as the term is usually > understood, then I have difficulty in understanding it as being a > characteristic of each citta. I do not see ekaggata cetasika as > concentration > in the usual sense, but rather as a tendency *towards* concentration. > Let me > explain. > Any citta has a single object, and, in that sense, there is > always > maximal concentration. So, surely, that is not meant, because there are, > > after all, degrees of concentration. .... As you say, there are degrees of concentration (‘right’ and ‘wrong’) and also conditions for concentration to sometimes be repeated on the same object (also ‘rightly’ and ‘wrongly’). In a post to Victor some time ago, Jon summarised different uses of developed wholesome concentration in different contexts in the texts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10879 I think it’s a helpful summary. ..... H:>It seems to me that concentration > in the > sense that the Buddha uses it in the suttas, and as most people use the > word, > is a feature of trains of thought, of sequences of cittas, and what it > refers > to is the degree of maintenance of "the same" object from mindstate to > mindstate during the course of a sequence of cittas. If one's mental > processes are lengthy - whether the commentarial maximum length of 17 > is the > true maximum or not is unimportant - and if long mental processes with > "the > same object" repeatedly occur with only brief interrupting processes > involving other objects interspersed, then one's mind is strongly > concentrated. ..... The distinction between how it is used in the suttas, referring to concentration in jhana or vipassana (as discussed by Jon) is I think quite different from what we mean conventionally. For a start, what we refer to conventionally, such as the concentration during Tai chi, whilst driving, playing tennis and so forth is seldom accompanied by any understanding at the level of vipassana or samatha and is seldom concerned with generosity or abstention from wrong speech or action. In other words, whether the mind is obviously ‘zig-zagging’ here and there (see the post from the Udana) or clearly focussed on a set of movements or ton he road in front, mostly it is accompanied by ignorance and not related to any kind of bhavana (mental development). ..... H:>But if the mind sticks with an object from citta to citta > only > sporadically and briefly, then the mind is very unconcentrated. That's > how I > see it. Now, it may be that there is an "ekagatta cetasika" which is the > tendency/inclination/predisposition to stick with the current object, > and the > stronger that tendency is, the more concentrated the mindstream will > tend to > be. So, from this perspective, 'ekagatta cetasika' and 'concentration' > do not > carry the same meaning, but they are related terms, and ekagatta > cetasika is > the primary condition for concentration, with concentration being a > trans-citta event. Any thoughts on this? ..... I think this is a conventional understanding of concentration. Whether the mind is concentrated or not conventionally, whether there are wholesome or unwholesome states arising, there is always ekaggata cetasika arising momentarily with each citta. It’ll just depend on conditions what the object is and whether the same object is repeated. I certainly agree that concentration as we know it is quite different from the meaning of ekaggata, but this is true with all conventional terms. When we say we are concentrating on the road ahead, we know there must be many processes, each consisting of many cittas - realities and concepts. The ekaggata cetasika takes the same object as the citta, focussing on the object, even when it seems we’e distracted and not focussing anymore. If it is right concentration of vipassana, the object has to be the same reality that is the object of sati and panna. When it is the object in samatha, it has to be one of the 40 objects (mostly concepts) of samatha and again has to be accompanied by right understanding of this level. When reading about the 24 paccaya (conditions), I like to read about jhana paccaya. The cetasikas (including ekaggata) which are jhana factors can also be unwholesome. In other words, there can be conditions for very highly developed wrong concentration too and this can be taken for right concentration. I’d like to quote again from another more recent post of Jon’s: Jon: "One thing is for sure. If we have the idea that awareness can *only* arise when preceded by 'conscious, deliberate or determined practice', and not at other times, this would be an almost insurmountable obstacle to the arising of awareness at moments when no such practice was being undertaken. It is likewise, but perhaps less obviously so, an obstacle to have the idea that awareness is *much more likely* to arise when the circumstance are those we perceive as being more conducive (e.g., our 'practice' time), and not at other ‘ordinary’ times. It is a sobering thought (to me, anyway) that it is not the defilements that are so easily noticeable to us (and which we would very much like to be rid of) that are the real obstacles to the development of insight. It is our wrong view and ignorance -- aspects of our kilesa about which we have relatively very little idea -- that are the major hindrances. The development of the path might be a lot easier if it was a matter of somehow dealing with more obvious kilesa." ***** Howard, I’ve forgotten what started this discussion and so I may be just repeating the obvious and missing your point completely. Pls let me know if so and if there’s anything we still disagree on. I think we settled everything on the ‘accumulations’ thread easily;-) As for being stubborn as in "I can be very stubborn!;-))", James tells us we can blame it on our dates of birth. I prefer to use "consistent’;-) Metta, Sarah p.s James - you’re in very good Taurus company here - Howard, me, John to name a few ‘regulars’. No wonder there is a locking or horns from time to time. As for blaming the Taurean Rooster birth-times, you can swap notes with Jon on that too;-) =============== 19010 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:17am Subject: Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Dear Htoo Naing, Happy to see that you have joined this group. Welcome. I would like to point out to you at the very outset that many of us here do not engage in any kind of formal meditation practice. For me the path is about the relationship between pariyatti-patipatti-pativedha. Pariyatti here does not mean book-knowledge, but understanding the meaning of what is read or heard. And I believe, this is accompanied by a level, though very small, of sati and panna; and this is anatta. So we may read as much as we want, but if there is no understanding, this would not be considered pariyatti. Likewise patipatti, is not about the intention to apply what has been heard or read, anatta as everything else, it (ie. the appropriate level of sati and panna, of satipatthana) will arise when the conditions are just right. These two mutually support each other and when panna has been accumulated enough, then pativedha can occur. Formal meditation practice can be done with wrong view and attachment. If it is not in the nature of someone to find time to sit alone and look inwards, then it is most likely that it is done with both wrong view and attachment. In this case it cannot lead to the goal, I believe that if one does not have sati in daily life, then surely one will mistake what is not sati to be sati during formal sittings. One only has to ask oneself, "why one wants to do it?" And the answer cannot be anything other than ditthi and/or tanha. If there is understanding at this moment, does one feel propelled to *do* anything (with regard to developing sati and panna)? Even if there is confusion and restlessness, it is just that, even this knowledge is good enough for the moment. Certainly we should not be pushed to seek a quiet surrounding with the idea that sati will arise if we could just sit down and watch the breath or something. When one understands, even in theory, about the complexity of conditions and the not-self nature of it, then one does not presume that any particular thing can be done to cause sati to arise. Htoo Naing, I know that you do apply the teachings in daily life and not particularly attach to formal practice. But I believe that even the subtle idea of having to *do* something, or *be* pratical can lead one away from understanding the moment, I think. I realize that lobha is insidious and it is one thing to talk about dhamma and what is and what is not the correct view, but in practice we all do get attached to what we believe in. I know that I easily make conclusions and stick to it as if that was the experience itself. A long way to go before doubt is totally eradicated and views are seen as such. Meantime it is good to be reminded over and over again about the pitfalls. Thanks for your reminder and welcome again. Much metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing " wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > As a newcomer I would like to say to you all ''Hello''.I am fond of > Dhamma.Talking anything related to Dhamma never makes me tired.I talk > sincerely and I show all my feelings and belief in exchange for > other's.More sensible thing is to talk on practical matters.But any > topics or issues are welcome to discuss. > > I still remember my childhood.Since my childhood,I have been thinking > senses and my surroundings.I examine myself internally and I check > the out-side world with my own thought.As time passes on,maturity is > built up and thoughts become more and more complicated.As there are > many countless matters around me,I consider what is worthy to note in > terms of rightness. > > I learned a lot literature related to Dhamma.But I feel it like this > what I have read is just for knowledge and it doesn't mean anything > without any achievement.So I orientate to practical matters.I always > try to put my mind on a checked tract so that I can avoid unnecessary > reactions and responses within my mind,which I believe is the causes > of everything happening at the moment. > > Trying to be on the right path deserves to do so because it has > numerous effects on myself and others.I do like to talk Dhamma > matters whenever possible.So,Dhamma friends,let's have a talk on > Dhamma.Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind.What we need to do is > actively search for it even though there is a lot of hinderance.I do > look forward to hearing from Dhamma friends talking Dhamma- related > matters. > > May you all be on the right path. > > Htoo Naing 19011 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhammavicaya leads to nihilism? Hi Tal, --- "Tal " wrote: > First, I`m sorry for the long gap between my posts. I was away for > few days. My name is Tal. I live in Israel and practice vipassana in > the S. N. Goenka tradition for the last few years. I've been a > lurker on this list in the past and now came back to resolve this > matter. .... Many thanks for filling us in on these details. I don’t think anyone else on DSG has mentioned living in Israel. Whereabouts in Israel do you live. I spent two wonderful summer stints working on kibbutzim when I was young(er). Actually, in one, some of the ‘volunteers’ used to sit around in the evenings discussing religions and I believe I was given my first book on Buddhism in your country and first inspired to travel to India at that time. I rather hope we don’t resolve your ‘matter’ too easily if that’s going to send you back to lurker land;-) You’ll also find other Goenka students here (Shakti - I just remembered we never heard about your discussion with G. before you went to Asia....??) ..... > Larry gave excerpts from the Visudhimagga: > > >>VIII 39: Life, person, pleasure pain--just these alone join in one > >> consciousness moment that flicks by. > > Does this mean that one citta experiences few objects?! ..... One consciousness moment has one object only. Seeing only sees visible object, hearing only hears sound etc. All that we consider important in life - life itself, people, happy and unhappy feelings and the long long stories are in reality just a moment of cnsciousness and then gone. The pain of a moment ago has gone, never to return. We long for the past or the future or are lost in concepts and forget life is such avery brief moment, just depending on that momentary breath (see WAY post ). ..... >If so, it > seems like a special case of an inherent inability of ours to > distinct phenomena from each other. Is such consciousness mentioned > in the Abhidhamma? ..... Citta = consciousness - Along with cetasikas (the mental factors that accompany citta), it experiences a reality or concept at each moment. Awareness (sati) can be aware of a reality - such as seeing consciousness and be a condition for panna (wisdom) to develop. ..... > Sarah wrote: > > >When beings or any other concepts are the object through the mind > >door (as Howard pointed out), it can be with wholesome or > >unwholesome cittas. These can be followed by right or wrong view. > Tal:> Can an imaginary object such as the concept "suffering being" be > kusala rooted in right view? ..... Yes, but if concept is the object it cannot be the right view (panna) associated with moments of satipatthana which always have realities as object. It can, however, be right view that accompanies moments of samatha (tranquil meditation) such as accompanying metta or karuna (compassion). Even for the arahants, there must be beings and concepts as object in this way. No illusion of “suffering beings” as existing in an ultimate sense however. Please ask anything else or let me know if any of it isn’t as you understand. These are very good points (and not easy to clarify, so hopefully they’ll keep you around for a while;-)). Metta, Sarah ===== 19012 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 2:05am Subject: Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Dear Htoo Niang, Welcome aboard, and thank you already for your contribution!! I think you will find that many people on this forum do engage in some kind of formal meditation practice. And they are very tolerant of those that don't :-) Be well Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula " wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > Happy to see that you have joined this group. Welcome. > > I would like to point out to you at the very outset that many of us here > do not engage in any kind of formal meditation practice. 19013 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 2:07am Subject: Re: The All Hi Steve, "The Connected Discourses of the Buddha" by Bhikkhu Bodhi (From the notes to the Salayatanasamyutta) In SN 35.23 (1) The All note 6 p.1399 Spk: The all (sabba) is fourfold: (i) the all- inclusive all (sabbasabba), i.e. everything knowable, all of which comes into range of the Buddha's knowledge of omniscience; (ii) the all of the sense bases (ayatanasabba), i.e. the phenomena of the four planes; (iii) the all of personal identity (sakkayasabba), i.e. the phenomena of the three planes; and (iv) the partial all (padesabba), i.e. the five physical sense objects. Each of these, from (i) to (iv), has a successively narrower range than its predecessor. In this sutta the all of the sense bases is intended. The four planes are the three mundane planes (see n.4 'the sensuous plane, the form plane, and the formless plane') and the supramundane plane (the four paths, their fruits, and Nibbana). In the next sutta SN 35.24 (2) Abandonment (1) note 9 "It might seem that in adding factors of experience not enumerated among the twelve sense bases - namely, consciousness, contact, and feeling - the Buddha has just now violated his own decree that the "all" comprises everthing. However, the factors mentioned here (and below) can be classified among the twelve bases. The six types of consciousness are included in the mind base (manayatana). Mind (mano) as a separate factor, the supporting condition for mind-consciousness, then becomes narrower in scope than the mind base; according to the commentarial system it denotes the bhavangacitta or subliminal life-continuum. Among the bases, contact and feeling are included in the base of mental phenomena (dhammayatana), along with other mental concomitants and the dhammarammana, the objects of mind-consciousness. Mind-consciousness itself, according to Spk. comprises the mind-door adverting consciousness (manodvaravajjanacitta) and the javanas. On these technical terms from the Abhidhamma, see CMA 3:8-11. In the sutta SN 35.28 (6) Burning note 13 "This sutta, often called 'The Fire Sermon', is the third discourse of the Buddha as recorded in the narrative of his ministry at Vin I 34-35. According to this source, the thousand bhikkhus were former jatila (matted-hair) ascetics under the leadership of the three Kassapa brothers. The Buddha had coverted them by a series of miracles after which he preached the present sermon. The sermon gains special meaning from the fact that before their conversion these ascetics had been devoted to the fire sacrifice. The full account is at Vin I 24-34; see Nanamoli, 'Life of the Buddha', pp. 54- 60, 64-69. Spk: Having led the thousand bhikkhus to Gaya's Head, the Blessed One reflected, "What kind of Dhamma talk would be suitable for them?" He then realized, "In the past they worshipped the fire morning and evening. I will teach them that the twelve sense bases are burning and blazing. In this way they will be able to attain arahantship." In this sutta the characteristic of suffering, is discussed. Spk = Saratthappakasini, Samyutta Nikaya-atthakatha metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500 " wrote: > Hi Folks > My understanding is that in relation to "The All" Sutta (S.N. > 35:23) that according to the commentaries Nibbana is to be included > in "The All" under Dhammaa. In the next Sutta, Pahaanasutta.m > (S.N.35:24) it says that "The all" is to be abandoned. Is the > commentaries take on this that All Dhamma's including Nibbana are > abandoned at Parinibbana? (which I think I saw in a post on DSG > somewhere??) > > Also in the next few Suttas of the same section of the Samyutta it > seems to say this same "All" (dhammaa) is "burning", "weighed down" > and subject to birth,aging and is anicca etc. > > Can someone please explain the Commentaries take on these Sutta's. > > Thank you. > Steve. 19014 From: Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All Hi, Steve - In a message dated 1/22/03 10:42:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bodhi2500@a... writes: > Hi Folks > My understanding is that in relation to "The All" Sutta (S.N. > 35:23) that according to the commentaries Nibbana is to be included > in "The All" under Dhammaa. In the next Sutta, Pahaanasutta.m > (S.N.35:24) it says that "The all" is to be abandoned. Is the > commentaries take on this that All Dhamma's including Nibbana are > abandoned at Parinibbana? (which I think I saw in a post on DSG > somewhere??) > > Also in the next few Suttas of the same section of the Samyutta it > seems to say this same "All" (dhammaa) is "burning", "weighed down" > and subject to birth,aging and is anicca etc. > > Can someone please explain the Commentaries take on these Sutta's. > > Thank you. > Steve. > ============================== If, indeed, the commentaries say that nibbana is included wihin the all, then there are the following possibilities as I see it: 1) Abhidhamma is correct in seeing nibbana as a separate reality outside the five khandhas, and the commentaries are wrong in this respect, or 2) "The all", rightly seen, with undefiled vision, is not different from nibbana, in which case these commentaries (and Nagarjuna) are right, and Abhidhamma wrong. Now position 2), I believe, whether correct or not, does not contradict the suttas you quote near the end, because they are speaking of "the all" under the sway of defilement, from the perspective of samsara. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19015 From: Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthana Hi, Herman (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 1/23/03 12:51:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Swee Boon, > > But the Buddhist scheme of things does allow for an end point , or > a "final cause" if you will, to a forward recursion, does it not? Or > is unbinding a condition for further conditions? > > All the best > > > Herman > ============================ Interesting point. It is said that every (worldly) dhamma arises due to conditions, but it isn't said that every worldly dhamma is a condition for the arising of other dhammas. The dependency, as I understand it, is backward-directed (passive [or caused], as opposed to active [or causing]). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19016 From: nidive Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 6:17am Subject: Thus have I heard (was Re: accumulations and Abhidhamma) Hi Herman, I am very happy you have now given me a message that is very understandable from the beginning to the end. That wasn't the case in your previous messages. > Brain chemistry is to me a valid inference based on what happens to > perception and thinking when different type of pharmacologically > active substances are ingested. I think that basically our differences lies in the interpretation of what constitutes or "make up" perceptions, feelings, thinking and consciousness. > A rupa is something one can experience. An atom is something one > cannot experience. Actually, this is something which I totally agree with you. Nevertheless, I don't reject the concept that atoms and molecules are made up of multiple rupas. I think you should have defined what is meant by "chemistry" as contained in your mental dictionary. Chemistry in the common sense of the word must always deal with atoms and molecules because this is science. Brain chemistry is science. But since you regard atoms and molecules as mere concepts, then your use of the word "chemistry" is entirely different from the common sense of the word. > I do not care for your assessments of my intelligence or lack > thereof. You would do me a favour by omitting that sort of judgment. One who doesn't make himself or herself clear to others is bound to be misinterpreted. You should have qualified the use of the word "chemistry" in your message. I am still learning this lesson through the recent use of the word "faith". Do I have faith or conviction? Yes. Do I have insight? Yes. Do I have blind faith? No. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19017 From: nidive Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:58am Subject: Re: Patthana Hi Herman, > But the Buddhist scheme of things does allow for an end point , or > a "final cause" if you will, to a forward recursion, does it not? > Or is unbinding a condition for further conditions? Howard said: > It is said that every (worldly) dhamma arises due to conditions, > but it isn't said that every worldly dhamma is a condition for > the arising of other dhammas. The dependency, as I understand it, > is backward-directed. I think this is the correct answer. But I am unable to explain with clear logic why it cannot be forward-directed. I think there are several conditions necessary for the arising of any single moment. Kamma and defilements would play a part in that. I think the difference lies in whether the future moment will definitely arise. The present and previous moments had definitely arisen. This is why the recursion is backward-directed infinitely. If there are several conditions necessary for the arising of the future moment, can we say that the future moment will definitely arise because of the presence of just the single condition that the present moment had arisen? This is why it cannot be forward-directed. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19018 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Dear Sukin, Lobha has different forms.It has different names.Lobha,Tanha,ragha,Upaddana and so on.The most prominent form can be seen by anyone.But subtle one cannot be easily seen.Lobha in Puthujana-Arupa Bramas and -Rupa Bramas are hard to be seen. Before the Time of The Buddha Gotama,what prevailed was religion related to trying to obtain Bramahood.Bramas live long and some think they are immortal.See Bhaka-Brama example.They hardly know their lobha. If someone thinks like this''All I know is right and all other things against my knowledge are wrong.My religiom is true and others' are false.My practice is right and other people are doing wrong.Even someone who firmly grasps without Panna like 'The religion I belief that is Buddhism is right other's are wrong;Theravada only is right and all non-Theravada Buddhisms are wrong''is said to has lobha. To be exact, that wrong view is called ''Ditthi'' which is a form of Lobha-led Cetasika.''Ditthi'' is so prevalent that I think in the present world population,there is hardly anyone who does not have ''Ditthi''.I mean the percentage.There are still Arahats in this world alive.But no one know where they are. Another potential or vivid enemy is Mana.It is so easy to arise.What I think is right and it is me who thinks like that.That's me,that's me.There are many sources for arising of Mana.JATI for example makes one to be proud.I CANNOT sit aside that bagger.I am the Prince,I am the King,I am the Queen,I am the Professor,I am the Boss,I am the Employer and so on. Rupa that is the good looking of bodily appearance and face.I am beautiful,he should love me why did he love that ugly girl?I am beautiful.I should be the Queen.Why am I an ordinary girlfriend of the King?I am beautiful I should have a better house,food,living and all in all.I am good-looking man.That lady should marry to me,why did she choose that ugly tooth-free wealthy man? Dhana or wealth is another source for Mana.I am the rich man.I don't want to sit together with that road-side cleaner.I am a rich man.They should treat me with prosperous materials.Why did they treat me with that awful food and things? Education is another source.I am a wise man.They all should take my advice.Why are they taking advice from that less wise man?I am an expert.They all should know that.I am well learned in Tipitaka.They all should worship me and ask me.And there are many other sources for arising of Mana.Mana again is one of Lobha-led Cetasika. Tanha(Lobha),Mana ans Ditthi are dhammas that expand Sansara of individual's life. They easily arise.They are visitors who come and go without invitation into our home mind.And they destroy the host home mind.Even worse,they sometimes come together with Dosa.If Mana is quite prominent it will come along with Dosa. I am the King.Kill those who hinder my journey around the country.He saw obstruction.Then disappointed for that and thought he is the most powerful of all people in the country(Mana arises).Those poor people should not obstruct my way.Why did they do that?(Dosa arises) and he decided to order to his ministers ''Kill those who obstruct my way.'' Dosa has many forms.Or has peers similar to him.Macchariya,Issa and Kukkicca.These things are my own.They should not use them(Macchariya).Oh!he became rich and richer than me.He was a poor man.It should not be happen to him(Issa).I didn't do good things,I have done a lot of bad things.These thought pass back into the past and will not give any good(Kukkicca).These four are Dosa-led Cetasika. Anything,Dosa or Lobha always arises along with Moha.Hoha-led Cetasikas are Moha(Avijja),Ahirika,Anottappa and Udicca.Moha doesnot have wisdom.Ahirika will do anything whether suitable or not (shamelessness).Anottappa will also do all things because he dare do anything bad and not considering outcome(fearlessness).Udicca has no concentration and makes powerless to hinder doing bad things. Htina,Middha cause ones weak and then they will do anything without considering.Vicikiccha cannot believe in doing good things and cannot decide properly. All these Cetasikas are happening in a daily basis.If they can be supressed one will feel a bit calm and happy.If they never occur again,then they will be totally liberated. If we practice to be focus the very present,we would see these dhammas and their interactions.With practice bad thought will become thinner and thinner.Panna will become stronger and stronger.If there is enough Parami,the highest Pana can be achieved. It is advisable to collect a bulk of knowledge and then go into practice.Practice cannot be replaced by anything.Three Sasana of Pariyatti,Paripatti and Parivedha should go together if possible.Parivedha is achievement stage and so start today with practice along with learning(Pariyatti).With practice we will see what is happening inside our mind.Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind.What we need to do is to see it with a clear view.So let's practice. May you have clear and right view on Dhamma. Htoo Naing "Sukinderpal Singh Narula " wrote:Dear Htoo Naing, Happy to see that you have joined this group. Welcome. I would like to point out to you at the very outset that many of us here do not engage in any kind of formal meditation practice. For me the path is about the relationship between pariyatti-patipatti-pativedha. Pariyatti here does not mean book-knowledge, but understanding the meaning of what is read or heard. And I believe, this is accompanied by a level, though very small, of sati and panna; and this is anatta. So we may read as much as we want, but if there is no understanding, this would not be considered pariyatti. Likewise patipatti, is not about the intention to apply what has been heard or read, anatta as everything else, it (ie. the appropriate level of sati and panna, of satipatthana) will arise when the conditions are just right. These two mutually support each other and when panna has been accumulated enough, then pativedha can occur. Formal meditation practice can be done with wrong view and attachment. If it is not in the nature of someone to find time to sit alone and look inwards, then it is most likely that it is done with both wrong view and attachment. In this case it cannot lead to the goal, I believe that if one does not have sati in daily life, then surely one will mistake what is not sati to be sati during formal sittings. One only has to ask oneself, "why one wants to do it?" And the answer cannot be anything other than ditthi and/or tanha. If there is understanding at this moment, does one feel propelled to *do* anything (with regard to developing sati and panna)? Even if there is confusion and restlessness, it is just that, even this knowledge is good enough for the moment. Certainly we should not be pushed to seek a quiet surrounding with the idea that sati will arise if we could just sit down and watch the breath or something. When one understands, even in theory, about the complexity of conditions and the not-self nature of it, then one does not presume that any particular thing can be done to cause sati to arise. Htoo Naing, I know that you do apply the teachings in daily life and not particularly attach to formal practice. But I believe that even the subtle idea of having to *do* something, or *be* pratical can lead one away from understanding the moment, I think. I realize that lobha is insidious and it is one thing to talk about dhamma and what is and what is not the correct view, but in practice we all do get attached to what we believe in. I know that I easily make conclusions and stick to it as if that was the experience itself. A long way to go before doubt is totally eradicated and views are seen as such. Meantime it is good to be reminded over and over again about the pitfalls. Thanks for your reminder and welcome again. Much metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing " wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > As a newcomer I would like to say to you all ''Hello''.I am fond of > Dhamma.Talking anything related to Dhamma never makes me tired.I talk > sincerely and I show all my feelings and belief in exchange for > other's.More sensible thing is to talk on practical matters.But any > topics or issues are welcome to discuss. > > I still remember my childhood.Since my childhood,I have been thinking > senses and my surroundings.I examine myself internally and I check > the out-side world with my own thought.As time passes on,maturity is > built up and thoughts become more and more complicated.As there are > many countless matters around me,I consider what is worthy to note in > terms of rightness. > > I learned a lot literature related to Dhamma.But I feel it like this > what I have read is just for knowledge and it doesn't mean anything > without any achievement.So I orientate to practical matters.I always > try to put my mind on a checked tract so that I can avoid unnecessary > reactions and responses within my mind,which I believe is the causes > of everything happening at the moment. > > Trying to be on the right path deserves to do so because it has > numerous effects on myself and others.I do like to talk Dhamma > matters whenever possible.So,Dhamma friends,let's have a talk on > Dhamma.Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind.What we need to do is > actively search for it even though there is a lot of hinderance.I do > look forward to hearing from Dhamma friends talking Dhamma- related > matters. > > May you all be on the right path. > > Htoo Naing 19019 From: Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 4:10am Subject: Re: Ekagatta Cetasika & Concentration [Re: [dsg] Re: unconditioned state] Hi, Sarah - We seem to be in agreement that concentration in the conventional sense has a different meaning from ekagatta cetasika. What I would like clarified, then, is exactly what 'ekagatta cetasika' means. What exactly is that function/feature of a single mindstate? What does the "focussing" on a single object during a mindstate mean when, in fact, that is always what happens during a mindstate (citta) - that is, the citta, per se, is the discerning of a single object, so what additional "focussing cetasika" is required? (And if the ekagatta cetasika is nothing more than the (defining) characteristic of a citta discerning a single object, does that imply that there are not differing degrees/strengths of that cetasika?) I add a couple more comments in context near the end of your post below. In a message dated 1/23/03 3:08:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > As usual, a little late but not forgotten;-) > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > H:> If ekagatta cetasika means concentration as the term is usually > > >understood, then I have difficulty in understanding it as being a > >characteristic of each citta. I do not see ekaggata cetasika as > >concentration > >in the usual sense, but rather as a tendency *towards* concentration. > >Let me > >explain. > > Any citta has a single object, and, in that sense, there is > >always > >maximal concentration. So, surely, that is not meant, because there are, > > > >after all, degrees of concentration. > .... > As you say, there are degrees of concentration (‘right’ and ‘wrong’) and > also conditions for concentration to sometimes be repeated on the same > object (also ‘rightly’ and ‘wrongly’). > > In a post to Victor some time ago, Jon summarised different uses of > developed wholesome concentration in different contexts in the texts: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10879 > > I think it’s a helpful summary. > ..... > H:>It seems to me that concentration > >in the > >sense that the Buddha uses it in the suttas, and as most people use the > >word, > >is a feature of trains of thought, of sequences of cittas, and what it > >refers > >to is the degree of maintenance of "the same" object from mindstate to > >mindstate during the course of a sequence of cittas. If one's mental > >processes are lengthy - whether the commentarial maximum length of 17 > >is the > >true maximum or not is unimportant - and if long mental processes with > >"the > >same object" repeatedly occur with only brief interrupting processes > >involving other objects interspersed, then one's mind is strongly > >concentrated. > ..... > The distinction between how it is used in the suttas, referring to > concentration in jhana or vipassana (as discussed by Jon) is I think quite > different from what we mean conventionally. For a start, what we refer to > conventionally, such as the concentration during Tai chi, whilst driving, > playing tennis and so forth is seldom accompanied by any understanding at > the level of vipassana or samatha and is seldom concerned with generosity > or abstention from wrong speech or action. In other words, whether the > mind is obviously ‘zig-zagging’ here and there (see the post from the > Udana) or clearly focussed on a set of movements or ton he road in front, > mostly it is accompanied by ignorance and not related to any kind of > bhavana (mental development). > ..... > H:>But if the mind sticks with an object from citta to citta > >only > >sporadically and briefly, then the mind is very unconcentrated. That's > >how I > >see it. Now, it may be that there is an "ekagatta cetasika" which is the > >tendency/inclination/predisposition to stick with the current object, > >and the > >stronger that tendency is, the more concentrated the mindstream will > >tend to > >be. So, from this perspective, 'ekagatta cetasika' and 'concentration' > >do not > >carry the same meaning, but they are related terms, and ekagatta > >cetasika is > >the primary condition for concentration, with concentration being a > >trans-citta event. Any thoughts on this? > ..... > I think this is a conventional understanding of concentration. Whether the > mind is concentrated or not conventionally, whether there are wholesome or > unwholesome states arising, there is always ekaggata cetasika arising > momentarily with each citta. It’ll just depend on conditions what the > object is and whether the same object is repeated. I certainly agree that > concentration as we know it is quite different from the meaning of > ekaggata, but this is true with all conventional terms. When we say we are > concentrating on the road ahead, we know there must be many processes, > each consisting of many cittas - realities and concepts. The ekaggata > cetasika takes the same object as the citta, focussing on the object, even > when it seems we’e distracted and not focussing anymore. If it is right > concentration of vipassana, the object has to be the same reality that is > the object of sati and panna. When it is the object in samatha, it has to > be one of the 40 objects (mostly concepts) of samatha and again has to be > accompanied by right understanding of this level. > > When reading about the 24 paccaya (conditions), I like to read about jhana > paccaya. The cetasikas (including ekaggata) which are jhana factors can > also be unwholesome. In other words, there can be conditions for very > highly developed wrong concentration too and this can be taken for right > concentration. > > I’d like to quote again from another more recent post of Jon’s: > > Jon: "One thing is for sure. If we have the idea that awareness can *only* > arise when preceded by 'conscious, deliberate or determined practice', and > not at other times, this would be an almost insurmountable obstacle to the > arising of awareness at moments when no such practice was being > undertaken. It is likewise, but perhaps less obviously so, an obstacle to > have the idea that awareness is *much more likely* to arise when the > circumstance are those we perceive as being more conducive (e.g., our > 'practice' time), and not at other ‘ordinary’ times. > > It is a sobering thought (to me, anyway) that it is not the defilements > that are so easily noticeable to us (and which we would very much like to > be rid of) that are the real obstacles to the development of insight. It > is our wrong view and ignorance -- aspects of our kilesa about which we > have relatively very little idea -- that are the major hindrances. The > development of the path might be a lot easier if it was a matter of > somehow dealing with more obvious kilesa." > ***** > Howard, I’ve forgotten what started this discussion and so I may be just > repeating the obvious and missing your point completely. Pls let me know > if so and if there’s anything we still disagree on. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What started it was merely my picking out from a post of yours one sentence in which you speak of the ekagatta cetasika as "concentration", and my questioning that. I won't say we disagree. But I am not at all clear on exactly what the ekagatta cetasika is supposed to be. I had one theory, namely that ekagatta cetasika is the *disposition* to remain with the current object in subsequent mindstates. That attepted definition would have the advantage of relating the Abhidhammic "ekagatta cetasika" to the suttic notion of concentration, which is quite conventional for the most part and certainly different from it. Also, this definition characterizing ekagatta cetasika as a disposition would place it squarely in the sankhara khandha within which the cetasikas other than vedana and sa~n~na lie. But you say this isn't it. That's fine. I'd just like to know what, according to Abhidhamma or the commentaries, it actually *is*. --------------------------------------------- > > I think we settled everything on the ‘accumulations’ thread easily;-) As > for being stubborn as in "I can be very stubborn!;-))", James tells us we > can blame it on our dates of birth. I prefer to use "consistent’;-) > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: And I have long loved the euphemism 'intransigent"! ;-)) That love stems, I think, from my Ayn Rand days! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Sarah > > p.s James - you’re in very good Taurus company here - Howard, me, John to > name a few ‘regulars’. No wonder there is a locking or horns from time to > time. As for blaming the Taurean Rooster birth-times, you can swap notes > with Jon on that too;-) > =============== > > > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: My mother, with a birthday 4 days before mine, was also a true Taurean - that is, she was wonderfully "intransigent"! Maybe the astrologers know whereof they speak! ;-)) ============================ With mulish metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19020 From: Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 4:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/23/03 5:06:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Dear Htoo Niang, > > Welcome aboard, and thank you already for your contribution!! I think > you will find that many people on this forum do engage in some kind > of formal meditation practice. And they are very tolerant of those > that don't :-) > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Heh, heh, heh!! ;-)) I love it, Herman! I just love it!! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- > > > Be well > > > Herman > ============================ With tolerant metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19021 From: Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthana Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 1/23/03 10:59:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Hi Herman, > > >But the Buddhist scheme of things does allow for an end point , or > >a "final cause" if you will, to a forward recursion, does it not? > >Or is unbinding a condition for further conditions? > > Howard said: > >It is said that every (worldly) dhamma arises due to conditions, > >but it isn't said that every worldly dhamma is a condition for > >the arising of other dhammas. The dependency, as I understand it, > >is backward-directed. > > I think this is the correct answer. But I am unable to explain with > clear logic why it cannot be forward-directed. > > I think there are several conditions necessary for the arising of > any single moment. Kamma and defilements would play a part in that. > > I think the difference lies in whether the future moment will > definitely arise. The present and previous moments had definitely > arisen. This is why the recursion is backward-directed > infinitely. > > If there are several conditions necessary for the arising of the > future moment, can we say that the future moment will definitely > arise because of the presence of just the single condition that the > present moment had arisen? This is why it cannot be > forward-directed. > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > > =============================== I think your analysis is good. A condition, C, arises due to the coming together of a group of conditions. Should some but not all the needed conditions arise, C will not arise. In particular, certain single conditions, in the absence of other conditions, might not lead to any consequent conditions. Moreover, with the attainment of full enlightenment (the stage of the arahant), or, at least with the advent of parinibbana, there is a total topsy-turvy turning wherein conditionality in the sense of separate conditions leading to the arising of other separate conditions is no longer (seen to be) in play at all. (But here, of course, I am gingerly stepping into unknown territory. "Fools rush in ... ") Nibbana, or at least parinibbana - I won't debate that point, is a stopping. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19022 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] ultimate realities Dear Htoo, welcome to the group. I greatly appreciate your explanation of the four Great Elements. Earth, Fire and Wind are names designating realities that can be experienced by touch. I was cleaning house this morning and I was reminded how daily the Abhidhamma is, thanks to you. I am so forgetful and thus, I never have enough of hearing about what is real. Some people may think, this is too simple, I know it already. I feel we need a long time to reflect on the elements again and again, we should not be too hasty. We need listening and considering again and again. In that way we can gradually come to understand that they are elements. The hardness is not the vacuum cleaner, not my hand. Hardness has a characteristic that can be experienced through touch and we do not have to name it hardness. It shows its own characteristic and this cannot be changed. Hardness is always hardness. You write: Citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana are paramattha dhammas. Let us talk now on the three conditioned paramattha dhammas, which can also be classified as five khandhas. Paramattha dhammas can be translated as ultimate realities, absolute realities or actualities. We can also call them realities or just dhammas. I was reminded again and again, when in Thailand, that it does not matter what words we use, but it is important to understand that they have each their own unchangeable characteristic that can be experienced, without having to name it. Hardness is experienced through touch, through the body-door and after that through the mind-door. We usually experience it with attachment (even slight) or with ignorance. When we have considered again and again the meaning of what an element is and acquired more understanding, there are conditions for the arising of sati sampajanna which can be directly aware of the characteristic of a reality. At that moment only one reality appears, there is nothing else appearing, no thinking, but of course, this is very difficult. As we all know, it takes a long time to develop panna. We have accumulated so much clinging and thus, clinging arises time and again. We wish to have sati, we are thinking with clinging about a reality such as hardness that appears. Then we are on the wrong Path, but if we realize this, it will prevent us from being deluded. I liked what you wrote: < Abhidhamma is totally different from other things. It is a means of total liberation> Yes, because in satipatthana the Abhidhamma is applied. Satipatthana is nothing else but the development of understanding of the characteristics of dhammas which appear through the six doorways. There is no need for everybody to learn all the different classifications, the whole Patthana book or all the different groups (kalapas) of rupa, all the details of nama and rupa. Although the details do not appeal to everybody, I think that they are helpful to have more understanding of the manifold and intricate conditions for the dhammas that arise now. As to the Patthana, this shows us the innumerable methods of classifying realities, and this makes us admire the Buddha's incomparable wisdom. Abhidhamma is not book knowledge. As Jaran once said: let everybody just study what he can understand. I believe that some basic knowledge is necessary for the development of insight. Otherwise we do not know what is a sense-door process, what a mind-door process, what is nama, what is rupa. Most important: We should not just have theoretical knowledge stemming from reading and listening, but understanding that grows by weighing things up, considering, so that there are conditions for sati sampajanna. As Jon also remarked before: sati arises in its own time, when there are conditions for it. You also wrote: I like the way you wrote this. There is still a lot to learn. Don't we need a humble attitude of mind? Then we can fully appreciate that we still have a lot to learn. We are lost if we believe that we have understood already. Thank you again, Nina. op 22-01-2003 19:14 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > Abhidhamma is totally different from other things.It is a means of > total liberation.So its view on The Matter will be a bit different > from view of Scientists and the allied. > 19023 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 10:12am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no. 17 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no. 17 We read further on in the Commentary to the ³Analysis of the Elements²: It has been asked: why did the almsbowl and robes which can be made to appear by supranatural powers not come to Pukkusåti? Answer: Because the son of a prominent family did not offer the eight requisites [21] in the past. This is what people generally may think. We read that this answer was refuted as follows: However, the son of a prominent family Pukkusåti had made offerings and he had made aspirations, and thus, one should not say that the reason (for not obtaining the requisites) was his lack of generosity in the past... Robes and bowl which can be made to appear by supranatural power can only come to disciples who are in their last life, thus, who have attained arahatship. For this son of a prominent family there would still be rebirth, because he had attained the state of non-returner, anågåmí, not arahatship. Moreover, the lifespan of this son of a prominent family was about to expire. With regard to Pukkusåti, (it can be said that it was as if) the Mahå-brahma (of the brahma plane), the anågåmí of the ³Pure Abodes² (suddhavåsa [22]) came to the potter¹s workshop and sat down there. Afterwards he was reborn as a brahma in the heavenly plane of Avihå, thus, in (the first of) the ³Pure Abodes². Only those who have attained the stage of the non-returner and have developed the fifth stage of jhåna can be reborn in the ³Pure Abodes². Pukkusåti, before his lifespan had come to an end, was close to becoming a rúpa-brahma in the ³Pure Abodes², and therefore, the Commentary stated: ³the Mahå-brahma (of the brahma plane), the anågåmí of the ³Pure Abodes² (suddhavåsa) came to the potter¹s workshop and sat down there.² Very soon his life as Pukkusåti would be changed into the life of a rúpa-brahma of the ³Pure Abodes². The Paramatthadípaní, the Commentary to the Khuddaka Nikåya, Commentary to the ³Theragåthå², Nidåna Kathå, states: The perfection of paññå which supports and fulfils all the perfections, the perfection of generosity and the others, of all Bodhisattas, brings gradually to maturity and complete fulfilment the awakening wisdom of the Buddha by which he attained Buddhahood. Also respectively, in the case of the Silent Buddhas and the disciples: it brings gradually to maturity and complete fulfillment the awakening wisdom of the Silent Buddhas and the disciples... The highest patience in the development of kusala, dåna etc., for the awakening wisdom of the Silent Buddhas and of the disciples is considered as effort or energy (viriya). The endurance when refraining from anger is considered as patience. The performing of generosity (dåna), the undertaking of síla etc., and the abstaining from speech which deviates from the truth is considered as truthfulness (sacca). Decisiveness which is unshakable, firm, and which accomplishes what is beneficial in all respects is considered as determination (aditthåna). Intentness on the benefit of other beings which is the foundation for performing dåna, síla etc., is considered as loving-kindness (mettå). Evenmindedness towards improper deeds done by other beings is considered as equanimity (upekkhå). Therefore, when dåna, síla and bhåvanå (mental development), or síla, samådhi and paññå are present, the perfections, viriya etc., can be regarded as completed. Footnote: 21. The eight parikkhåra, requisites are: three robes, a bowl, a razor, a needle, a girdle and a water-strainer. 22. There are five Pure Abodes, Suddhåvåsa planes for non-retuners, which are the results of the fourth jhåna (or fifth of the fivefold system), and Pukkusåti was born in the first of them, the Aviha plane. 19024 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical Basis [was: All in a days work] Hi Sarah, Ok. I will try to summarize the difference in interpretation as I understand it. One interpretation to the statement "one finds no one dearer than oneself" is that one is attached to oneself. The attachment to self is to be abandoned. While another interpretation to the statement is that one is dear to oneself. In this interpretation, the statement "one finds no one dearer than oneself" does not mean "one is attached to oneself". Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > > Now that I know that Raja Sutta is what you were referring to, maybe > > we can continue the discussion we had before. > .... > That would be fine - no discussion is ever closed as far as I'm > concerned(unless the moderators say it's off-topic;-)) > ..... > > We did understand/interpret this discourse differently: I think the > > significance of Raja Sutta is that the Buddha's utterance points out > > the rationale/basis of ethics in his teaching: > ..... > Why don't you start by summarising the different interpretations we both > gave before and the rationale for these and perhaps we can look to see if > we can find any middle ground. I agree with your comment above. > ..... > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > > Searching all directions > > with one's awareness, > > one finds no one dearer > > than oneself. > > In the same way, others > > are fiercely dear to themselves. > > So one should not hurt others > > if one loves oneself. 19025 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 0:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Hello Htoo Naing, I am enjoying your posts and think you may be interested in a recent discussion on Mana (conceit). I think it has a much wider meaning than the one you have discussed in your interesting post. The previous discussion begins at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17732 metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: <<>> > Another potential or vivid enemy is Mana.It is so easy to arise.What I think is right and it is me who thinks like that.That's me,that's me.There are many sources for arising of Mana.JATI for example makes one to be proud.I CANNOT sit aside that bagger.I am the Prince,I am the King,I am the Queen,I am the Professor,I am the Boss,I am the Employer and so on. > Rupa that is the good looking of bodily appearance and face.I am beautiful,he should love me why did he love that ugly girl?I am beautiful.I should be the Queen.Why am I an ordinary girlfriend of the King?I am beautiful I should have a better house,food,living and all in all.I am good-looking man.That lady should marry to me,why did she choose that ugly tooth-free wealthy man? > Dhana or wealth is another source for Mana.I am the rich man.I don't want to sit together with that road-side cleaner.I am a rich man.They should treat me with prosperous materials.Why did they treat me with that awful food and things? > Education is another source.I am a wise man.They all should take my advice.Why are they taking advice from that less wise man?I am an expert.They all should know that.I am well learned in Tipitaka.They all should worship me and ask me.And there are many other sources for arising of Mana.Mana again is one of Lobha-led Cetasika. > Tanha(Lobha),Mana ans Ditthi are dhammas that expand Sansara of individual's life. > They easily arise.They are visitors who come and go without invitation into our home mind.And they destroy the host home mind.Even worse,they sometimes come together with Dosa.If Mana is quite prominent it will come along with Dosa. 19026 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 0:32pm Subject: Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Hello Sukin, (Herman, Howard and Htoo Naing), Great to see your posts again - and two in one day. :-) I really liked your comments "For me the path is about the relationship between pariyatti-patipatti-pativedha. Pariyatti here does not mean book-knowledge, but understanding the meaning of what is read or heard. And I believe, this is accompanied by a level, though very small, of sati and panna; and this is anatta." AND "When one understands, even in theory, about the complexity of conditions and the not-self nature of it, then one does not presume that any particular thing can be done to cause sati to arise." [BTW, just ignore that larrikin Herman and his mate Howard ... let's try to view them with kindness and a compassionate understanding of the conditions that made them the way they are. :-) :-)] Thanks Sukin, much metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula " wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, <<>> 19027 From: Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Hi, Chris - In a message dated 1/23/03 3:34:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > [BTW, just ignore that larrikin Herman and his mate Howard ... let's > try to view them with kindness and a compassionate understanding of > the conditions that made them the way they are. :-) :-)] > > =========================== Your compassionate understanding is much appreciated! BTW, I'm not familiar with the term 'larrikin'. Is that the Oz equivalent to the Pali 'arahant'? ;-)) With modest metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19028 From: Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 3:52pm Subject: Way 41, Comm, Breathing "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commntary, The Section on Breathing, p.53 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'" Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I", nothing that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati paccupatthita hoti]. Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose. This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose. What is the purpose for which it is established? Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance." That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning. [Tika[ For the purpose of reaching the knowledge of body-contemplation to the highest extent [kayanupassana ñanam param pamanam papanatthaya] is the meaning of: To the extent necessary for just knowledge [yavadeva ñanamattaya]. Anissito ca viharati = "And he lives independent." He lives emancipated from dependence on craving and wrong views. [T] With these words is stated the direct opposition of this meditation to the laying hold on craving and wrong views. Na ca kiñci loke upadiyati = "And clings to naught in the world." In regard to no visible shape... or consciousness, does he think: this is my soul; or this belongs to my soul. Evampi = "Thus also." With this expression ("Thus also") the Blessed One wound up the instruction on the section on breathing. In this section on breathing, the mindfulness which examines the respirations is the Truth of Suffering. The pre-craving which brings about that mindfulness is the Truth of Origination. The non-occurrence of both is the Truth of Cessation. The Real Path which understands suffering, abandons origination, and takes cessation as object, is the Truth of the Way. Thus having endeavored by way of the Four Truths, a person arrives at peace. This is the portal to emancipation of the bhikkhu devoted to meditation on breathing. 19029 From: James Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 4:38pm Subject: Perception is the Ultimate Reality Hi All, Okay, I guess I'm ready now, let us begin the Abhidhamma wars. Rupa is nonsense and nama is partially nonsense. They do not exist as ultimate realities. Nama/Rupa, the four elements, etc., all of those are mundane realities. The Buddha explained what is ultimate reality when he told his monks what they must always remember (and it wasn't nama/rupa): "'Of kamma I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; kamma is the matrix; kamma is my kinsman; kamma is my refuge. Whatever kamma I perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be heir.' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/protection.html#s1 So, the basis of everything is kamma. Kamma is determined by perception (if there was no perception there would be no kamma and no choice). Kamma, or perception, is the ultimate reality. Thus the Buddha taught. Everything else is extrapolation of kamma, not an ultimate reality. Metta, James 19030 From: david_wheeler58 Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 6:02pm Subject: Re: Perception is the Ultimate Reality Good evening James The ultimate reality, from an experiential point of view, is the direct experience of phenomenon dissolved of subject and object. And kamma doesn't need perception to exist. Does the moon percieve? It is loaded with kamma. Metta, Dave --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: > Hi All, > > Okay, I guess I'm ready now, let us begin the Abhidhamma wars. Rupa > is nonsense and nama is partially nonsense. They do not exist as > ultimate realities. Nama/Rupa, the four elements, etc., all of those > are mundane realities. The Buddha explained what is ultimate reality > when he told his monks what they must always remember (and it wasn't > nama/rupa): > > "'Of kamma I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; kamma is the > matrix; kamma is my kinsman; kamma is my refuge. Whatever kamma I > perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be heir.' This must be > reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/protection.html#s1 > > So, the basis of everything is kamma. Kamma is determined by > perception (if there was no perception there would be no kamma and no > choice). Kamma, or perception, is the ultimate reality. Thus the > Buddha taught. Everything else is extrapolation of kamma, not an > ultimate reality. > > Metta, James 19031 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Dear Htoo Naing, Thanks a lot for this letter. It is good to be reminded again and again. Any kilesa name it, I have them all in great abundance. But what can be done?! Hope wise friends will always be around to point them out, and maybe little by little they come into view with right understanding. metta, Sukin. ps: I sent this post last night from my regular mailbox but it did not reach the list. The same thing happened on another list. So now I am wondering if my private posts to you and Christine did go through? Chris let me know if you received my post or not!? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: > > Dear Sukin, > Lobha has different forms.It has different names.Lobha,Tanha,ragha,Upaddana and so on.The most prominent form can be seen by anyone.But subtle one cannot be easily seen.Lobha in Puthujana-Arupa Bramas and -Rupa Bramas are hard to be seen. > Before the Time of The Buddha Gotama,what prevailed was religion related to trying to obtain Bramahood.Bramas live long and some think they are immortal.See Bhaka-Brama example.They hardly know their lobha. > If someone thinks like this''All I know is right and all other things against my knowledge are wrong.My religiom is true and others' are false.My practice is right and other people are doing wrong.Even someone who firmly grasps without Panna like 'The religion I belief that is Buddhism is right other's are wrong;Theravada only is right and all non-Theravada Buddhisms are wrong''is said to has lobha. > To be exact, that wrong view is called ''Ditthi'' which is a form of Lobha-led Cetasika.''Ditthi'' is so prevalent that I think in the present world population,there is hardly anyone who does not have ''Ditthi''.I mean the percentage.There are still Arahats in this world alive.But no one know where they are. > Another potential or vivid enemy is Mana.It is so easy to arise.What I think is right and it is me who thinks like that.That's me,that's me.There are many sources for arising of Mana.JATI for example makes one to be proud.I CANNOT sit aside that bagger.I am the Prince,I am the King,I am the Queen,I am the Professor,I am the Boss,I am the Employer and so on. > Rupa that is the good looking of bodily appearance and face.I am beautiful,he should love me why did he love that ugly girl?I am beautiful.I should be the Queen.Why am I an ordinary girlfriend of the King?I am beautiful I should have a better house,food,living and all in all.I am good-looking man.That lady should marry to me,why did she choose that ugly tooth-free wealthy man? > Dhana or wealth is another source for Mana.I am the rich man.I don't want to sit together with that road-side cleaner.I am a rich man.They should treat me with prosperous materials.Why did they treat me with that awful food and things? > Education is another source.I am a wise man.They all should take my advice.Why are they taking advice from that less wise man?I am an expert.They all should know that.I am well learned in Tipitaka.They all should worship me and ask me.And there are many other sources for arising of Mana.Mana again is one of Lobha-led Cetasika. > Tanha(Lobha),Mana ans Ditthi are dhammas that expand Sansara of individual's life. > They easily arise.They are visitors who come and go without invitation into our home mind.And they destroy the host home mind.Even worse,they sometimes come together with Dosa.If Mana is quite prominent it will come along with Dosa. > I am the King.Kill those who hinder my journey around the country.He saw obstruction.Then disappointed for that and thought he is the most powerful of all people in the country(Mana arises).Those poor people should not obstruct my way.Why did they do that?(Dosa arises) and he decided to order to his ministers ''Kill those who obstruct my way.'' > Dosa has many forms.Or has peers similar to him.Macchariya,Issa and Kukkicca.These things are my own.They should not use them (Macchariya).Oh!he became rich and richer than me.He was a poor man.It should not be happen to him(Issa).I didn't do good things,I have done a lot of bad things.These thought pass back into the past and will not give any good(Kukkicca).These four are Dosa-led Cetasika. > Anything,Dosa or Lobha always arises along with Moha.Hoha-led Cetasikas are Moha(Avijja),Ahirika,Anottappa and Udicca.Moha doesnot have wisdom.Ahirika will do anything whether suitable or not (shamelessness).Anottappa will also do all things because he dare do anything bad and not considering outcome(fearlessness).Udicca has no concentration and makes powerless to hinder doing bad things. > Htina,Middha cause ones weak and then they will do anything without considering.Vicikiccha cannot believe in doing good things and cannot decide properly. > All these Cetasikas are happening in a daily basis.If they can be supressed one will feel a bit calm and happy.If they never occur again,then they will be totally liberated. > If we practice to be focus the very present,we would see these dhammas and their interactions.With practice bad thought will become thinner and thinner.Panna will become stronger and stronger.If there is enough Parami,the highest Pana can be achieved. > It is advisable to collect a bulk of knowledge and then go into practice.Practice cannot be replaced by anything.Three Sasana of Pariyatti,Paripatti and Parivedha should go together if possible.Parivedha is achievement stage and so start today with practice along with learning(Pariyatti).With practice we will see what is happening inside our mind.Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind.What we need to do is to see it with a clear view.So let's practice. > May you have clear and right view on Dhamma. > Htoo Naing > "Sukinderpal Singh Narula " wrote:Dear Htoo Naing, > > Happy to see that you have joined this group. Welcome. > > I would like to point out to you at the very outset that many of us here > do not engage in any kind of formal meditation practice. For me the > path is about the relationship between pariyatti-patipatti- pativedha. > Pariyatti here does not mean book-knowledge, but understanding the > meaning of what is read or heard. And I believe, this is accompanied by > a level, though very small, of sati and panna; and this is anatta. > > So we may read as much as we want, but if there is no understanding, > this would not be considered pariyatti. Likewise patipatti, is not about > the intention to apply what has been heard or read, anatta as > everything else, it (ie. the appropriate level of sati and panna, of > satipatthana) will arise when the conditions are just right. These two > mutually support each other and when panna has been accumulated > enough, then pativedha can occur. > > Formal meditation practice can be done with wrong view and > attachment. If it is not in the nature of someone to find time to sit alone > and look inwards, then it is most likely that it is done with both wrong > view and attachment. In this case it cannot lead to the goal, I believe > that if one does not have sati in daily life, then surely one will mistake > what is not sati to be sati during formal sittings. One only has to ask > oneself, "why one wants to do it?" And the answer cannot be anything > other than ditthi and/or tanha. > > If there is understanding at this moment, does one feel propelled to > *do* anything (with regard to developing sati and panna)? Even if there > is confusion and restlessness, it is just that, even this knowledge is good > enough for the moment. Certainly we should not be pushed to seek a > quiet surrounding with the idea that sati will arise if we could just sit > down and watch the breath or something. When one understands, even > in theory, about the complexity of conditions and the not-self nature of > it, then one does not presume that any particular thing can be done to > cause sati to arise. > > Htoo Naing, I know that you do apply the teachings in daily life and not > particularly attach to formal practice. But I believe that even the subtle > idea of having to *do* something, or *be* pratical can lead one away > from understanding the moment, I think. > > I realize that lobha is insidious and it is one thing to talk about dhamma > and what is and what is not the correct view, but in practice we all do > get attached to what we believe in. I know that I easily make > conclusions and stick to it as if that was the experience itself. A long > way to go before doubt is totally eradicated and views are seen as such. > Meantime it is good to be reminded over and over again about the > pitfalls. Thanks for your reminder and welcome again. > > Much metta, > Sukin. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing > " wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > As a newcomer I would like to say to you all ''Hello''.I am fond of > > Dhamma.Talking anything related to Dhamma never makes me tired.I > talk > > sincerely and I show all my feelings and belief in exchange for > > other's.More sensible thing is to talk on practical matters.But any > > topics or issues are welcome to discuss. > > > > I still remember my childhood.Since my childhood,I have been > thinking > > senses and my surroundings.I examine myself internally and I check > > the out-side world with my own thought.As time passes on,maturity is > > built up and thoughts become more and more complicated.As there > are > > many countless matters around me,I consider what is worthy to note > in > > terms of rightness. > > > > I learned a lot literature related to Dhamma.But I feel it like this > > what I have read is just for knowledge and it doesn't mean anything > > without any achievement.So I orientate to practical matters.I always > > try to put my mind on a checked tract so that I can avoid unnecessary > > reactions and responses within my mind,which I believe is the causes > > of everything happening at the moment. > > > > Trying to be on the right path deserves to do so because it has > > numerous effects on myself and others.I do like to talk Dhamma > > matters whenever possible.So,Dhamma friends,let's have a talk on > > Dhamma.Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind.What we need to do is > > actively search for it even though there is a lot of hinderance.I do > > look forward to hearing from Dhamma friends talking Dhamma- > related > > matters. > > > > May you all be on the right path. > > > > Htoo Naing 19032 From: James Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:13pm Subject: Re: Perception is the Ultimate Reality --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "david_wheeler58 " wrote: > Good evening James > > > The ultimate reality, from an experiential point of view, is the direct experience of phenomenon dissolved of subject and object. (James: Right! And when this is done, the only thing that remains is perception.) > And kamma doesn't need perception to exist. Does the moon percieve? It is loaded with kamma. (James: This is a mundane view.) > > Metta, Dave > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > Okay, I guess I'm ready now, let us begin the Abhidhamma wars. Rupa > > is nonsense and nama is partially nonsense. They do not exist as > > ultimate realities. Nama/Rupa, the four elements, etc., all of those > > are mundane realities. The Buddha explained what is ultimate reality > > when he told his monks what they must always remember (and it wasn't > > nama/rupa): > > > > "'Of kamma I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; kamma is the > > matrix; kamma is my kinsman; kamma is my refuge. Whatever kamma I > > perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be heir.' This must be > > reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/protection.html#s1 > > > > So, the basis of everything is kamma. Kamma is determined by > > perception (if there was no perception there would be no kamma and no > > choice). Kamma, or perception, is the ultimate reality. Thus the > > Buddha taught. Everything else is extrapolation of kamma, not an > > ultimate reality. > > > > Metta, James 19033 From: James Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 10:20pm Subject: Photos and Trimming Hi David (and All), Oh, I forgot to mention that I haven't seen your photo in the Photos section of this group. Do you have one to upload? When mixing it up over mundane and ultimate realities, I like to picture who I am addressing…makes it so much more `real', if you know what I mean ;- ). Also, I didn't notice that you had responded to my last post and kept my original post at the end, otherwise I would have trimmed all of that extra stuff off in my reply. If replying to my posts, I would recommend only quote a little bit and then snip the rest…or the posts are going to become as long as the Patthana! ;-) I write very long posts! And though each word is worth its weight in gold ;-), I'm sure very few read them more than once. Thanks. Metta, James Ps. KKT, if you are out there, as you often phase in and out, you promised a photo (well, not really, but kinda) and I am still waiting to see it. ;-) Other new members, please post a photo...don't be shy.... ;-) 19034 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 10:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical Basis [was: All in a days work] Hi Victor, --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > One interpretation to the statement "one finds no one dearer than > oneself" is that one is attached to oneself. The attachment to self > is to be abandoned. While another interpretation to the statement is > that one is dear to oneself. In this interpretation, the > statement "one finds no one dearer than oneself" does not mean "one > is attached to oneself". ..... OK, so far so good;-) In a wheel publication on ‘Buddhist Women.....’, Helmuth Hecker gives the following summary. Do you think that both interpretations above would agree with this as a modern conventional language summary, given that we’re talking about a ‘worldling’ couple: “One day when the King was standing on the parapet of the palace with the Queen and was looking down upon the land, he asked whether there was anyone in the world she loved more than herself. He expected her to name him since he flattered himself to have been the one who had raised her to fame and fortune. But although she loved him, she remained truthful and replied that she knew of no one dearer to herself than herself. Then she wanted to know how it was with him: Did he love anyone possibly her - more than herself? Thereupon the Kind also had to admit that self-love was always predominant. but he went to the Buddha and recounted the conversation to find out how a Saint would consider this. The Buddha confirmed his and Mallika’s statement.” ***** I agree that it’s more long-winded than your summary, Victor;-) Look f/w to hearing how the 2 interpretations would view this or anything else you'd care to share. Metta, Sarah ==== 19035 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 11:01pm Subject: The use of verse in the Suttas Hi all, According to the suttas, the Buddha quite often spoke in verse, as opposed to discursive speech. The devas, and beings from other realms, also often spoke in verse. This, to me, is highly significant, as discursive speech is normally rendered by the left brain hemisphere (in right handed folks), while poetry and verse tend to originate in the right brain hemisphere. The left brain is analytical and thinks in terms of tree, while the right brain is synthetic and thinks in terms of forest. Because these two modes of thought are available it is possible to have the Dhamma Sangani (atomistic) approach to reality and the Patthana (wholistic) approach to reality. After this long intro, which was designed to make anyone who was going to call me fat or an arahant think again :-), my question is this: In the original language versions of the verse I have referred to, what structure did the verse take? Is there anything like iambic hexameters in Pali? Is there rhyme in the verse at all? Was it meant to be rhythmically delivered? Thank you in advance Herman 19036 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 0:13am Subject: Letter to Kom Dear Kom, Thank you once again for helping me out on the question I asked you in the previous letter I sent. However, I am quite confused about some of the questions. Approximately, in what year did the Buddha die in ? Do Buddhists have prayer books or prayers? At the end of the letter, you gave me some new vocabulary. Can you use them like 'metta'? Are they goods or symbols in the religion? Well that is all! Keep in touch! Metta, Janice 19037 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 0:16am Subject: Letter from Janice Dear James, Thank you for the poems again and for explaining me why you didn't want to be a Poet writer! Here are a few questions to assist me to answer: Which country do you like the best? Which country contains the most Buddhists? Is it really true your parents did not allow you to become a monk? How does the Buddha teach you how to build up happiness? Was your sister a Buddhist? Sorry to bring that subject up again after it had diminish quite a long time ago! Please send me more poems! (I hope you are not out of poems!) Metta, Janice P.S. I really like the poem on how to torture your teacher! maybe I could try it out! 19038 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 1:28am Subject: JATAKAS Dear Kimmy, I am Kiana. That's really nice that you read through my letter and borrowed the book that I introduced on the "JATAKAS". The meaning is quite easy to understand. The question that you asked, why a horse's death can save a country, right? Then I'll tell you now. Because the horse fought with the enemy to protect its country, and it got hurt and died, so its death saved the country. If I keep on telling you all the stories, meaning and more about the tales, you won't get anything at the end so it is better you look it up and find by yourself. Hope your exam result would be good. ^-^ Kiana. 19039 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 1:31am Subject: ~ < Deep Thinker >~ Dear James, I am really glad to receive your letter and thank you for it. You want to find evidence before you trust - You are a really deep thinker too! I want to say that 'TRUE' or 'FALSE' are deep words, because they are different to all people, just depending whether you believe or not. If you don't believe that, you can say it is false, if you believe it, you can also say it is true, so, I think it is hard to decide what is true, what is false and what is right, what is wrong. I asked the questions - are those true, maybe there are no answers, but I am glad to hear your ideas. Do you believe in Buddhism? If you do, does it help you to control your emotions? In which way, and why? Hope you will have a happy Chinese New Year. Kiana. 19040 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 2:31am Subject: Re: The use of verse in the Suttas Hi Herman, What the Buddha said about poetry ... S.I.60(10) "Poetry" 201 "What is the scaffolding of verses? What constitutes their phrasing? On what base do verses rest? What is the abode of verses?" 202 Metre is the scaffolding of verses; Syllables constitute their phrasing; Verses rest on a base of names; The poet is the abode of verses." (I think Thanissaro Bhikkhu made some comments on Pali poetry in an article on the Dhammapada. Can't locate it though.) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: my question is > this: In the original language versions of the verse I have referred > to, what structure did the verse take? Is there anything like iambic > hexameters in Pali? Is there rhyme in the verse at all? Was it meant > to be rhythmically delivered? > > Thank you in advance > > > Herman 19041 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] ultimate realities Dear Nina and Dhamma friends, Thanks Nina for your appreciation of my contribution.All you wrote to me is nice and every word in it has sound meaning and I got all of it.But I am still learning and I am not a perfectionist.If I wrote something unclear or wrongly,could you please remind me.I think you are more mature than me.This is just personal opinion and not important for further discussion. The 4 great elements are real existances and other dhammas like other rupas(although they have their own characteristics,they have to depend on 4 elements),Citta and Cetasika have to depend on them. Another set of rupa which function as aramana(senses) are Vanna(vision or sight),Saddha(sound),Gandha(smell),Rasa(taste) and 3 of 4 great elements(excluding Apo or water property as it cannot be sensed_ Water can be sensed as Pathavi,Tejo and Vayo but Apo cannot be sensed and Apo is the matter of Dhamma-aramana) as Phutthappa.Vanna,Saddha,Ghandha,Rasa and Phutthappa are also known as external Panca-dhatu (of rupa-based).In this set it has 4 (Phutthappa included in elements). There are 5 rupa function as doors for senses;Cakkhupasada,Sotapasada,Ghanapasada,Jinvapasada and Kayapasada.These 5 rupa are also called internal Panca-dhatu(of rupa-based). So there has been described 13 rupa.These rupas should be known well and they involve in the interactions with Citta and Cetasika. Another set of 5 comes here.Hadaya-watthu,Purisabhavarupa(Y-chromosome and other male characteristics),Itthiyabhavarupa(Absence of Y-chromosome and other female characteristics),Jivitarupa(rupa-life) and Ojarupa(or Ahara-rupa). These 18 rupas are real existance and are apparent to our mind. In external objects or all things in this universe have unseparable combination of 8 rupas.They are Pathavi,Tajo,Vayo,Apo,Vanna,Gandha,Rasa and Oja.These worth to be appreciated. For completeness,there left 10. 1.Pariccheda(Akasa or space between 2 or more rupas). 2.Two, Vinatti-Kayavinattirupa and Vacivinattirupa. 3.Three,Rupalahuta(lightness),Rupamuduta(tenderness)Rupakammanata(ease-functioning). 4.Four Lakkhanarupa 1.Upacayarupa(initial formation) 2.Santati (developping till mature) 3.Jarata (getting olg) 4.Aniccata( destruction of disappearance). We don't need to examine these rupas from scientific view as science behave differently and it is not the way of escape.Even worse,the scientists are trying to live eternal life which is against Anicca.If someone lives for long long long long,he will find the way different if this happened. I hope Rupa has been well explained from Abhidhamma point of view.We need to understand Rupa well.Citta and Cetasika are major characters and will soon be examined.The interactions of Rupa,Citta and Cetasika can be seen in Paticcasamuppada and Pathana.Pathana has extra properties than Paticcasamuppada. Life is precious,time is precious,let's learn when we have a chance and let's make an effort to find Truth. May you all be free from Miccha-Ditthi which easily intrudes us. Htoo Naing nina van gorkom wrote:Dear Htoo, welcome to the group. I greatly appreciate your explanation of the four Great Elements. Earth, Fire and Wind are names designating realities that can be experienced by touch. I was cleaning house this morning and I was reminded how daily the Abhidhamma is, thanks to you. I am so forgetful and thus, I never have enough of hearing about what is real. Some people may think, this is too simple, I know it already. I feel we need a long time to reflect on the elements again and again, we should not be too hasty. We need listening and considering again and again. In that way we can gradually come to understand that they are elements. The hardness is not the vacuum cleaner, not my hand. Hardness has a characteristic that can be experienced through touch and we do not have to name it hardness. It shows its own characteristic and this cannot be changed. Hardness is always hardness. You write:Paramattha dhamma.> Citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana are paramattha dhammas. Let us talk now on the three conditioned paramattha dhammas, which can also be classified as five khandhas. Paramattha dhammas can be translated as ultimate realities, absolute realities or actualities. We can also call them realities or just dhammas. I was reminded again and again, when in Thailand, that it does not matter what words we use, but it is important to understand that they have each their own unchangeable characteristic that can be experienced, without having to name it. Hardness is experienced through touch, through the body-door and after that through the mind-door. We usually experience it with attachment (even slight) or with ignorance. When we have considered again and again the meaning of what an element is and acquired more understanding, there are conditions for the arising of sati sampajanna which can be directly aware of the characteristic of a reality. At that moment only one reality appears, there is nothing else appearing, no thinking, but of course, this is very difficult. As we all know, it takes a long time to develop panna. We have accumulated so much clinging and thus, clinging arises time and again. We wish to have sati, we are thinking with clinging about a reality such as hardness that appears. Then we are on the wrong Path, but if we realize this, it will prevent us from being deluded. I liked what you wrote: < Abhidhamma is totally different from other things. It is a means of total liberation> Yes, because in satipatthana the Abhidhamma is applied. Satipatthana is nothing else but the development of understanding of the characteristics of dhammas which appear through the six doorways. There is no need for everybody to learn all the different classifications, the whole Patthana book or all the different groups (kalapas) of rupa, all the details of nama and rupa. Although the details do not appeal to everybody, I think that they are helpful to have more understanding of the manifold and intricate conditions for the dhammas that arise now. As to the Patthana, this shows us the innumerable methods of classifying realities, and this makes us admire the Buddha's incomparable wisdom. Abhidhamma is not book knowledge. As Jaran once said: let everybody just study what he can understand. I believe that some basic knowledge is necessary for the development of insight. Otherwise we do not know what is a sense-door process, what a mind-door process, what is nama, what is rupa. Most important: We should not just have theoretical knowledge stemming from reading and listening, but understanding that grows by weighing things up, considering, so that there are conditions for sati sampajanna. As Jon also remarked before: sati arises in its own time, when there are conditions for it. You also wrote: founded The Real Dhamma and left a lot to learn for later and later generations for their liberation.> I like the way you wrote this. There is still a lot to learn. Don't we need a humble attitude of mind? Then we can fully appreciate that we still have a lot to learn. We are lost if we believe that we have understood already. Thank you again, Nina. op 22-01-2003 19:14 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > Abhidhamma is totally different from other things.It is a means of > total liberation.So its view on The Matter will be a bit different > from view of Scientists and the allied. > 19042 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Dear Christine, Thanks for your kind reference.I will go through these topics of Mana. Actually Mana and Ditthi are quite similar and they behave only a bit difference.But they never come together.The basis is Lobha.So Lobha,Mana,Ditthi are called Lobha-Mula Cetasikas.If someone wrongly views Ditthi prevails and if he refers himself strongly, Mana prevails. I think we should search these differences in Milandha and Nagasena's questions and answers or somewhere else in Tipitaka. Thanks for your kindness. May you be free from Mana. Htoo Naing "christine_forsyth " wrote:Hello Htoo Naing, I am enjoying your posts and think you may be interested in a recent discussion on Mana (conceit). I think it has a much wider meaning than the one you have discussed in your interesting post. The previous discussion begins at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17732 metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: <<>> > Another potential or vivid enemy is Mana.It is so easy to arise.What I think is right and it is me who thinks like that.That's me,that's me.There are many sources for arising of Mana.JATI for example makes one to be proud.I CANNOT sit aside that bagger.I am the Prince,I am the King,I am the Queen,I am the Professor,I am the Boss,I am the Employer and so on. > Rupa that is the good looking of bodily appearance and face.I am beautiful,he should love me why did he love that ugly girl?I am beautiful.I should be the Queen.Why am I an ordinary girlfriend of the King?I am beautiful I should have a better house,food,living and all in all.I am good-looking man.That lady should marry to me,why did she choose that ugly tooth-free wealthy man? > Dhana or wealth is another source for Mana.I am the rich man.I don't want to sit together with that road-side cleaner.I am a rich man.They should treat me with prosperous materials.Why did they treat me with that awful food and things? > Education is another source.I am a wise man.They all should take my advice.Why are they taking advice from that less wise man?I am an expert.They all should know that.I am well learned in Tipitaka.They all should worship me and ask me.And there are many other sources for arising of Mana.Mana again is one of Lobha-led Cetasika. > Tanha(Lobha),Mana ans Ditthi are dhammas that expand Sansara of individual's life. > They easily arise.They are visitors who come and go without invitation into our home mind.And they destroy the host home mind.Even worse,they sometimes come together with Dosa.If Mana is quite prominent it will come along with Dosa. 19043 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 3:22am Subject: Re: The use of verse in the Suttas Dear Christine, Thanks so much for this. I need to confess my ignorance, I can't find anything that clarifies the meaning of S.I. I'm pretty sure it's not Smithsonian Institute or Sports Illustrated. Want to rake up some more merit :-) Thanks, cobber (that's something like sakadagami for the uncouth) Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Herman, > > What the Buddha said about poetry ... > > S.I.60(10) "Poetry" > > 201 > "What is the scaffolding of verses? > What constitutes their phrasing? > On what base do verses rest? > What is the abode of verses?" > 202 > Metre is the scaffolding of verses; > Syllables constitute their phrasing; > Verses rest on a base of names; > The poet is the abode of verses." > > (I think Thanissaro Bhikkhu made some comments on Pali poetry in an > article on the Dhammapada. Can't locate it though.) > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " > wrote: > my question is > > this: In the original language versions of the verse I have > referred > > to, what structure did the verse take? Is there anything like > iambic > > hexameters in Pali? Is there rhyme in the verse at all? Was it > meant > > to be rhythmically delivered? > > > > Thank you in advance > > > > > > Herman 19044 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical Basis [was: All in a days work] Correction - see ***below ============ --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > “One day when the King was standing on the parapet of the palace with > the > Queen and was looking down upon the land, he asked whether there was > anyone in the world she loved more than herself. He expected her to > name > him since he flattered himself to have been the one who had raised her > to > fame and fortune. But although she loved him, she remained truthful and > replied that she knew of no one dearer to herself than herself. Then > she > wanted to know how it was with him: Did he love anyone possibly her - > more than ***HIMSELF?***(not herself as I typed) >Thereupon the Kind also had to admit that self-love > was always predominant. but he went to the Buddha and recounted the > conversation to find out how a Saint would consider this. The Buddha > confirmed his and Mallika’s statement.” > ***** Sarah ======= 19045 From: dsgmods Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:57am Subject: Trim reminder Dear All Chris' timely reminder here is most welcome. Please remember to trim tails as much as you can (if in doubt, snip it!). Thanks for your cooperation. Jon & Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth < cforsyth@v...>" wrote: ... > <<>> 19046 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 5:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Frank, Thanks for all your kind advice and intresting comments on health and fitness. Maybe I'll follow up off-list sometime. Back to the main discussion on seclusion and forest life for now. --- Frank Kuan wrote: >...... but EVERYONE can benefit from > (more) seclusion. Really it's not dangerous. > Numerous passages in the suttas with arhats and > ariya praising and encouraging solitude. ..... You may be right, Frank, but increasingly I check the fine print;-) I laugh now when I think about the months I spent secluded in a Sri Lankan forest temple, not associating with anyone, earnestly trying to cultivate mindfulness and concentration, pursuing all my actions in slow motion and causing a lot of anxiety to others;-) I think my experiences were mild compared to others’, but could anyone have persuaded me in advance that this was wrong practice? I’m not sure. Were those who resorted to the forest in the Buddha’s time necessarily all on the right track? Was everyone told to live a secluded life in the first instance? Yesterday I picked up on a quote from “Meghiya” in the Udana which James had given in support of ‘control’. I added some commentary notes which clearly suggested an interpretation of the importance of developing awareness and understanding of different mental states. The chapter which precedes the quote (Ud4, Meghiya,1)is quite interesting as it is relevant to many current threads including this one. In brief, Meghiya is the Buddha’s attendant at the time. He sees a mango grove which inspires ‘serenity’ and which he considers suitable for making an effort on the Path. The Buddha gives some brief comments which Meghiya doesn’t appreciate and after asking permission to go to the grove for the third time ‘for the purposes of effort’, the Buddha just suggests he should do what it seems to be the time to do. To Meghiya’s great surprise, even though he has become a bhikkhu in good faith and gone to the secluded grove to make an effort, he is ovrwhelmed by thoughts concerned with sense-desires, ill-will and cruelty. He returns to the Buddha who says: “When liberation of heart is not fully mature , Meghiya, five things conduce to full maturity.” He then proceeds to elaborate on these five conditions conducive to the development of wisdom. ***** These five in brief are: 1. The good friend 2. Morality. “..............seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom.....’ 3. Talk concerned with the Dhamma and development of wholesome states 4. the 4 Right Efforts 5. Insight leading to the destruction of dukkha. ***** With regard to the first point, the good friend, the commentary adds a lot of detail.“This is the first thing that conduces to full maturity (aya.m pa.thamo dhammo paripaakaaya sa.mvattati): this blameless thing, reckoned as possession of a lovely friend, which is first on acount of its having been spoken of at the beginning of these five things due to its being primary for living the Brahmacariya and due to its being pre-eminent on account of its being of great service to all skilled states, conduces to liveration of heart’s full maturity by way of causing there to be purified 9the faculties of) faith and so that are as yet unpurified....” It then quotes various suttas about the value of the ‘lovely friend’: “For this, Ananda, forms the entire Brahmacariya, that is to say, possession of a lovely friend..”. Earlier the commentary says: “Since he proceeds, by way of both mind and body, in a state that slopes. tends, inclines towards lovely individuals alone, he is “one with a lovely intimate”. by means of this triad of words, he gives rise to regard with respect to association with a lovely friend.”.end quote> ***** I’m sure we’re all talking together (rather than in solitude in the mango grove at this moment;-)) because we appreciate and respect the value of ‘lovely individuals’ and the sloping towards those who encourage us in kusala, especially panna (wisdom). Let me just share a comment from the commentary on the note above about “seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom” as it related to your discussion with Chris before: “...For whatever monk there be who beholds a sin, even the size of the smallest of atoms, taking this to be similar to Sineru, king of mountains, that is a hundred thousand yojanas, plus sixty-eight thousand more besides, in height, who also beholds mere bad speech, which is totally petty, taking this to be similar to (an offence involving ) Defeat, such a one is also known as “one seeing fear in sins even the size of an atom”. I think this gives an indication of how far there is to go;-) One last note I find interesting relates to the fact that the Buddha knew Meghiya's work would 'fail to be accomplished' but knew it was useless to try to sop him. From the sutta the Buddha says: "How can we speak, Meghiya, when you speak of effort? You should do that for which you deem it now to be the time". We also read in the commentary about all the conditions from previous lives for Meghiya to choose that spot in the grove. Let me sign off by reposting the verse which James posted, prompting these reflections on the story leading up to it: ********************************************************* > Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that > occasion exclaimed: > Little thoughts, subtle thoughts, > when followed, stir up the heart. > Not comprehending the thoughts of the heart, > one runs here & there, > the mind out of control. > But comprehending the thoughts of the heart, > one who is ardent, mindful, > restrains them. > When, followed, they stir up the heart, > one who is awakened > lets them go without trace. > Udana IV.1; Meghiya Sutta > ******************************************************** Let me know if you have any further comments. I find your great respect for the Samyutta and Majjhima Nikayas very inspiring, Frank. Metta, Sarah ====== 19047 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 6:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Dear everyone, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: < snip > Another potential or vivid enemy is Mana.It is so easy to arise. What I think is right and it is me who thinks like that.That's me, that's me.There are many sources for arising of Mana.JATI for example makes one to be proud.I CANNOT sit aside that bagger. I am the Prince,I am the King,I am the Queen,I am the Professor, I am the Boss,I am the Employer and so on. KKT: I just want to add some more info here and hope that Sarah doesn't mind since the info is from a Mahayana source ? :-)) I think this info is useful and interesting. In Abhidhamma, Mana (Conceit) is just a Cetasika. But in Yogacara (the Mind-Only school of Mahayana) I think they had seen the importance of this Cetasika, therefore they raised Mana to become a Citta (ie. the 7th Consciousness) In Yogacara there are: 8 Citta + 51 Cetasika (Caitasika in Sanskrit) 8 Citta = the first 5 senses (eye-consciousness, etc.) + Mano-vijnana (Conscious Mind or 6th Consciousness) + Manas (Subconscious Mind or 7th Consciousness) + Alaya-vijnana (Storehouse Consciousness or 8th Consciousness) Manas or the 7th Consciousness has 4 main characteristics: Self-delusion, Self-belief, Self-conceit, Self-love. Manas has Alaya-vijnana as its object and takes Alaya-vijnana as << Soul or Self >> Manas continuously think about the self to which it is attached. Thus Manas is what we call << ego >> or the << feeling of I, Me, Mine, Myself >> It is believed that at the death of a person, the first 6 Consciousnesses are destroyed but Manas and Alaya continue to pass to the next rebirth. I have noticed that small babies of many months have already their ego. This is the proof of Manas going from one life to the next one :-)) Cheers :-)) KKT 19048 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 7:51am Subject: Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentration Dear Dhamma Friends, Ekagatta always works with citta.Every citta has Ekagata.Even when we are sleeping,there is Ekagata.Citta never stops to happen until it is Cuticitta of Arahats.So Ekagata always happens along with citta.It homes together with Bhavanghacitta as well as Vithicitta.It is a Cetasika. Its lifespan is the same as Citta.It functions as a fixer.It fixes itself at an Aramana and helps other Cetasikas and Citta fix at the same Aramana.This means that it always takes only one and one Aramana. Bhavanghacitta is fixed at the previous life's Mar anasannajavanacitta's Aramana that is Kamma,Kamma-Nimitta and Gati-Nimitta with the help of Ekagatta Cetasika. When Vithicitta occurs,Ekagatta also occurs.Pancadavara-avijjanacitta fixes at Pancarupa-aramana with the help of Ekagatta.If mind senses the sight then Cakkhuvinanacitta fixes at Rupa-aramana and Ekagatta takes the same Aramana.Sampaticcanacitta,then,hand over the same aramana of Rupa- aramana.Ekagatta occurs at the same time again.Next is Santiranacitta.It investigates the aramana handed over by Sampaticcanacitta,fixing at that Rupa-aramana with the help of a new Ekagatta Cetasika.After that,Manodavara-avijjanacitta functions as Wutthoppanacitta fixing at the same Rupa- aramana handed over by Santirana.Here another new Ekagatta appears again and helps all other Cetasika and the present citta to fix at that Rupa -aramana.Wutthoppanacitta decides how to presume,feel,appreciate,understand,realise and view.Next citta has a clear function as the decision has been made.That citta is Javanacitta.It again fixes at the same Rupa-aramana and it feels.There are 7 successive javanacittas,all fixing at the same aramana handed over by previous cittas(Samannatara- Paccayo).In all these Javanacittas there accompanies Ekagatta Cetasika,each time new and new.After the last Javanacitta,there follows Tadaramanacitta fixing at the same Aramana.Tadaramana feels deeply what Javana feeled.Next is the second Tadaramana.Then passes to Bhavanghacitta again and Bhavanghacittas occur many times limitlessly.In the two Tadaramana,they fix at the same aramana taken by javanacitta with the help of new and new each Ekagatta.When passes to Bhavanghacitta aramana fixed is aramana of Maranasannajavanacitta of the previous life.So Ekagatta occurs all the time but each new at each time.It functions as a fixer and help not to spread to other aramanas. Samadhi is the term given for a stage to develop The Highest Panna.Even though it is Ekagatta Cetasika,it works differently compared to Ekagatta of various citta.It has two name,Miccha-samadhi and Samma-samadhi.When a man is fishing,his mind is fixed at the water or pole or whatever it fixed at a single aramana.But it is Miccha-samadhi as the aramana is Akusala-aramana.If Ekagatta falls on the Samatha or Vipassana-aramana,it is called Samma-samadhi.Still,it is not as strong as Ekagatta of Lokuttaracittas,in which Ekagatta is true Samma-samadhi.In Samatha it is just called Samadhi. Ekagatta is one of the members of Jhanacitta.Ekagatta in Jhanacitta is well trained unlike other Ekagattas of Karmavacaracitta.There are five stages of Jhana.All stages contain Ekagatta but higher and higher Jhana has higher and more powerful Ekagatta.All Arupajhanacitta have Ekagatta of high power.Citta can be trained by citta itself.When Citta and the accompanying Ekagatta is well trained,it will be a lot easier to attain the highest Nana or Pana. Concentration is just a lay term.Everyone can concentrate in some ways.The dog concentrates at its food.The monkey concentrates at bananas wherever.Erotically active people concentrate on their interests.Terrorists concentrate at their attack points.Thieves concentrate on the disappearance of the owners.Manslaughters concentrate the weakest points at men and concentrate at these points. From Abhidhamma point of view,whenever citta occurs,Ekagatta occurs.BUT Ekagatta in different people and even in a person in different cittas behaves differently in terms of power,purity and strength even though its function is to fix at a point. Hoping you all have a clear account of the Cetasika Ekagatta. May you all successfully train Ekagatta to be the most effective and purest form. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19049 From: Frank Kuan Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Thanks for the thoughts on seclusion Sarah, We all have to choose our own path. The more I practice, the more solitude I find to be necessary. In the past, I would enjoy eating a meal in the company of good friends. Now I find it incredibly distracting. Totally interferes with mindfulness of eating. This change in me happened over time, to my surprise actually. Had someone tried to convince me of this years ago, I would believe them, but still be a little skeptical. :-) My theory is those who see the necessity of solitude have a stronger sense of urgency and awareness of dukkha and samvega than the average buddhist. For example, by all accounts I live an extremely privileged life, eat the finest foods, live in the finest place, but even if this kind of lifestyle were sustainable for this entire life, and lives to come, I would still find it a tremendous burden and suffering. The best of conditioned life has to offer still sucks. Driven by this kind of emotion, there is no alternative to strenuous practice, and solitude facilitates it, at least for good chunks of time, varying for individual. Think about how much of your life was spent going to school, learning basic skills, working the rat race to save some money, and then to encounter this precious dhamma, realizing just how difficicult and fortunate it is to encountger these teachings, with no guarantee that you would encounter it again, does it not strike a sense of urgency? Yesterday, I was evaluating and lamenting the state of my mindfulness, which should be focused on only 4 themes for 24/7. Not only is it not within the 4 themes for half of the time, but even when it is, it has a tendency to spend too much on "mindfulness of dhamma". I've been actively trying to shift more of the percentage to mindfulness of body and feeling, and less on dhamma. Not that there isn't a time and place for mindfulness of dhamma, but the percentage of effort just seems out of whack. I won't go into the details of my reasoning, I'll just say it has to do with my working theory of what types of mindfulness are conducive to faith, views, reasoned thinking, and direct realization. -fk 19050 From: bodhi342 Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: Dukkha as Medicine? Hello Christine, Thank you for your detailed message. I appreciate your pointing out that most everything worldly revolves around Anicca, and that anatta and dukkha are derivatives. Further that dukkha is more than just dukkha-dukkha, including (as kindly pointed out by Sarah) the nature of change and of the impermanent nature of conditioned realities. Also agree about the contrast/duality of most experience. I hope you had a chance to read my two follow-up messages to TG, that may help clarify what I was trying to get at about not being too averse to dukkha. Without the dukkha-dukkha caused by proximity to the flame, we would not either move our hand away, nor try to extinguish the flame. In this elementary example, the perception of pain is ultimately 'useful'. Why is there the perception heroin addicts, alcoholics etc. lead useless lives? I would suggest that single-minded numbing of their dukkha inhibits the search for resolution of the cause of that dukkha, however imperfect. Indeed it displays the conceit of "I am" at the expense of everything else. Perhaps a more concrete example of the sleep of illusion? It is the 'unsatisfactory' nature of dukkha that presumably leads both to 'artistic creativity' and to the search for 'solutions'. I would venture to suggest that none of us would pursue spiritual improvement, were it not for the sensation of 'unsatisfactoriness'. Ergo the value of dukkha. When we preceive the value of a certain thing, our perception changes, some may consider it a 'gift' in that sense. The 'gift' is the new perception and value added to what was previously solely misery. Who gives and who receives are immense questions that perhaps we could pursue at another time. Thank you for bringing them up, Christine. metta, dharam 19051 From: bodhi342 Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 8:44am Subject: Re: Dukkha as Medicine? Hi Sarah, Thank you for your warm welcome. Thank you also for kindly showing me the ropes. Will look up the archives that you and Sukin have suggested. Answers to your questions: Sukin had recommended joining dsg, after valiantly trying to show me his point of view, done with impressive scholarship and endurance. We (amiably) disagreed a lot of the time! I think his 'classification personality' is that of a 'splitter', while mine is of a 'lumper'. We live in the US, and have never lived in India. I have been considering these questions for what seems like a long time. At least, since gradually realizing the dual dangers of ego- centeredness, and mistaking form for content! Like you, I am not very impressed by either exclusive labels, or by complexity. Rightly or wrongly, I believe that truth is ultimately elementary. The logical assumption is that there is only one ultimate reality. Accepting that, one of my many questions is if there is only one path to that reality, or if it is possible to have several paths to the same ultimate end? At the moment, I believe the latter. Anicca is the basis of most wise understandings/formulations of our universe. Similarly Anatta, when wisely considered, even if using other words, is the ultimate truth about sentient beings. Both immensely useful concepts, as far as I can tell. I am just another seeker of the ultimate reality. Hope my tendency of asking basic questions does not test the patience of most people on dsg. metta, dharam PS: If it is okay with you, I like to refer to the ultimate reality as "......". Anyone is therefore free to insert the word of their choosing, without the friction that arises from ownership! 19052 From: Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentrationn Hi, Htoo Naing - I thank you for the following detailed explanation. I regret to say, however, that I don't get much from it. A citta is not some "thing" which does various things. A citta *is* the discerning of an object - it is that operation. There is always, according to Abhidhamma, a single object discerned. That is what vi~n~nan-izing is (to create an ugly Pali-English term). There cannot be degrees of one-pointedness in this sense. A single object is a single object. I fail to see what the one-pointedness (ekagatta cetasika) you describe is other than the ordinary function of vi~n~nana, in which case that would make it a redundancy. It still seems to me that if there were to be any validity to the notion of a cetasika that might rightfully be called one-pointedness, and which could occur with varying degrees of strength, it would have to be a disposition/inclination to maintain the same object in subsequent cittas. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/24/03 10:52:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Ekagatta always works with citta.Every citta has Ekagata.Even when we > are sleeping,there is > Ekagata.Citta never stops to happen until it is Cuticitta of > Arahats.So Ekagata always happens along > with citta.It homes together with Bhavanghacitta as well as > Vithicitta.It is a Cetasika. > > Its lifespan is the same as Citta.It functions as a fixer.It fixes > itself at an Aramana and helps other > Cetasikas and Citta fix at the same Aramana.This means that it always > takes only one and one > Aramana. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19053 From: nidive Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 9:22am Subject: Re: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no. 17 Hi Nina, > Only those who have attained the stage of the non-returner > and have developed the fifth stage of jhåna can be reborn > in the ³Pure Abodes². Then what happens to the non-returner with dry insight and no jhana attainment? Where is the non-returner reborn for the last lifetime before attaining arahatship? I read somewhere that the non-returner with dry insight will automatically develop jhana when death is approaching. It is also said that a non-returner has perfected concentration and virtue. Is it because most of the hindrances (except sloth and torpor and restlessness) have been eradicated? Is it also possible that jhana kamma from the infinite past might condition the rebirth in the brahma realms (since it is said the non- returner cannot be reborn in the sensuous realm anymore)? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19054 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Trim reminder Dear Mods, Could you please help me how to trim, and snip (detail instructions)?I am not an expert in computer use.This is not to post and just enquiry. With thanks Htoo Naing "dsgmods " wrote: Dear All Chris' timely reminder here is most welcome. Please remember to trim tails as much as you can (if in doubt, snip it!). Thanks for your cooperation. Jon & Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth < cforsyth@v...>" wrote: ... > <<>> 19055 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:20am Subject: Intimation through body and speech, intro Dear friends, I translated from Thai Dhamma Issues no. 3, about intimation through body and speech. This deals with many details on the different groups (kalapas) of rupa, and I can understand very well that some people may feel frustrated when reading this. Lodewijk felt that way, he felt frustrated, and he said that I could chase people away, yelling, but that is the last thing I want to do. For me it is difficult to change the text of Dhamma Issues, I am just translating. Therefore, I decided to first give an introduction to this subject. Gestures and speech are so daily, I feel that it is useful to know more about their intricate conditions. I intend to paste here in different parts Ch 6 of my "Physical Phenomena", which you can also find on the Zolag web. However, let those who find the subject too detailed skip this, I understand very well that it depends on one's accumulations whether one is interested or not (:-) :-) . Nina. 19056 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:20am Subject: "Intimation through Body and Speech, no 1" Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech Citta is one of the four factors that produces rúpa. We look different when we laugh, when we cry, when we are angry or when we are generous. Then we can notice that citta produces rúpa. Bodily intimation (kåyaviññatti) and speech intimation (vacíviññatti) are two kinds of rúpa, originated by citta. They are not produced by the other three factors that can produce rúpa, by kamma, temperature or nutrition. As to bodily intimation, this is movement of the body, of the limbs, facial movement or gestures which display our intentions, be they wholesome or unwholesome. The intention expressed through bodily intimation can be understood by others, even by animals. Bodily intimation itself is rúpa, it does not know anything. We read in the ³Dhammasangaùi² (§ 636): What is that rúpa which is bodily intimation (kåyaviññatti)? That tension, that intentness, that state of making the body tense, in response to a thought, whether good or bad, or indeterminate (kiriyacitta), on the part of one who advances, or recedes, or fixes the gaze, or glances around, or retracts an arm, or stretches it forth - the intimation, the making known, the state of having made known - this is that rúpa which constitutes bodily intimation. According to the ³Atthasåliní² (I, Book I, Part III, 82, 83), in the case of bodily intimation citta produces the ³eight inseparable rúpas²[1] and among them the element of air (wind, oscillation or motion) plays its specific part in supporting the body and strengthen the postures. We read: ... But there is a certain peculiar, unique mode of change in the primaries (four Great Elements) when set up by mind, through which, as a condition, mobility (the element of wind or motion) is able to strengthen, support and agitate the coexistent body. This is intimation. ... Because it is a capacity of communicating, it is called ³intimation². What does it communicate? A certain wish communicable by an act of the body. If anyone stands in the path of the eye, raises his hands or feet, shakes his head or brow, the movement of his hands, etc. are visible. Intimation, however, is not so visible; it is only knowable by the mind. For one sees by the eye a colour-surface moving by virtue of the change of position in hands, etc. [2]. But by reflecting on it as intimation, one knows it by mind-door-consciousness, thus: ³I imagine that this man wishes me to do this or that act.²... The intention expressed through bodily intimation is intelligible to others, not through the eye-door but through the mind-door. Knowing, for example, that someone waves is cognition through the mind-door and this cognition is conditioned by seeing-consciousness that experiences visible object or colour. The meaning of what has been intimated is known after reflection on it, thus it can only be cognized through the mind-door. The ³Visuddhimagga² (XIV, 61) defines intimation in a similar way and then states about its function, manifestation and proximate cause: ... Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of bodily excitement. Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated air-element. Footnotes: 1.The four Great Elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion, and visible object, odour, flavour and nutrition. 2. Because of saññå, remembrance, one can notice the movement of a colour surface. Seeing sees only colour, it cannot see movement of colour. 19057 From: nidive Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: Perception is the Ultimate Reality Hi James, > Kamma is determined by perception > (if there was no perception there would be no kamma and no choice). Why don't you say this? : Kamma is determined by ignorance (if there were no ignorance, there would be no kamma). > Kamma, or perception, is the (only) ultimate reality. "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an06-063.html Perception and Intention are entirely different things. It is almost common sense. The Buddha DID NOT say: "Perception, I tell you, is kamma. Perceiving, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect. "And what is name-&-form? Feeling, PERCEPTION, INTENTION, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements & the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form." [SN XII.2] And what are fabrications? There are these six classes of intention: intention aimed at sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas. These are called fabrications. [SN XXII.56] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html "Whatever (mental) fabrications are past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: those are called the aggregate of fabrications. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-048.html If anything, Kamma should be classified as under the aggregate of fabrications instead of the aggregate of perception. It is not to my understanding that Perception and Intention are the same thing. The Buddha had never said that Kamma and Perception are the same thing. It is only your own wishful extrapolation. If you can't find any sutta quote that says directly that only the aggregate of perception is ultimate and the rest are mundane, just admit it. If you need time to search for it, just say so. Regards, NEO Swee Boon Weight Age Gender Female Male 19058 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intimation through body and speech, intro Dear Nina, I posted so much for Rupa.All physical phenomena are related to Rupa.Gesture and Speeches are rupa but their lifespan is the same as Citta even though they are Rupa which should be 17 lifespan of Citta.These two(Kayavinattirupa and Vacivinattirupa) are both Cittajarupas.So their lifespan is just the same as Citta.Could you please do not go deep about rupa.Learn rupa as a basis for understanding of Abhidhamma.I hope you learned well in Dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing nina van gorkom wrote:Dear friends, I translated from Thai Dhamma Issues no. 3, about intimation through body and speech. This deals with many details on the different groups (kalapas) of rupa, and I can understand very well that some people may feel frustrated when reading this. Lodewijk felt that way, he felt frustrated, and he said that I could chase people away, yelling, but that is the last thing I want to do. For me it is difficult to change the text of Dhamma Issues, I am just translating. Therefore, I decided to first give an introduction to this subject. Gestures and speech are so daily, I feel that it is useful to know more about their intricate conditions. I intend to paste here in different parts Ch 6 of my "Physical Phenomena", which you can also find on the Zolag web. However, let those who find the subject too detailed skip this, I understand very well that it depends on one's accumulations whether one is interested or not (:-) :-) . Nina. 19059 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentrationn Dear Howard, Maintaining an object that you said is a matter of Vitakka.Ekagatta works to calm all Cetasikas and Citta as well by fixing at an Aramana.Unlike Ekagatta,Vitakka maintain all other mental factors to an Aramana at next successive cittas.You will know there are differences in mental strength among people.It is not quite to say one pointedness.Try to see inside of your mind and find who is Ekagatta.With long long practice you will be aware of its existance.Cetasika is quite difficult to explain but it worths explained. Hoping the best understanding. With Metta, Htoo Naing upasaka@a... wrote:Hi, Htoo Naing - I thank you for the following detailed explanation. I regret to say, however, that I don't get much from it. A citta is not some "thing" which does various things. A citta *is* the discerning of an object - it is that operation. There is always, according to Abhidhamma, a single object discerned. That is what vi~n~nan-izing is (to create an ugly Pali-English term). There cannot be degrees of one-pointedness in this sense. A single object is a single object. I fail to see what the one-pointedness (ekagatta cetasika) you describe is other than the ordinary function of vi~n~nana, in which case that would make it a redundancy. It still seems to me that if there were to be any validity to the notion of a cetasika that might rightfully be called one-pointedness, and which could occur with varying degrees of strength, it would have to be a disposition/inclination to maintain the same object in subsequent cittas. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/24/03 10:52:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Ekagatta always works with citta.Every citta has Ekagata.Even when we > are sleeping,there is > Ekagata.Citta never stops to happen until it is Cuticitta of > Arahats.So Ekagata always happens along > with citta.It homes together with Bhavanghacitta as well as > Vithicitta.It is a Cetasika. > > Its lifespan is the same as Citta.It functions as a fixer.It fixes > itself at an Aramana and helps other > Cetasikas and Citta fix at the same Aramana.This means that it always > takes only one and one > Aramana. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19060 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections, Ch 7, anagami Hi Neo, Once we asked A. Sujin, we were also wondering about this. As far as I remember, it is by nature that the anagami is inclined to jhana, no more attachment to sense objects, no involvement in them. No distractions and no interest in all the sense pleasures. A high degree of calm must come naturally to him, I believe. Perhaps Sarah remembers the exact answer or more details. Nina op 24-01-2003 18:22 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > Hi Nina, > >> Only those who have attained the stage of the non-returner >> and have developed the fifth stage of jhåna can be reborn >> in the ³Pure Abodes². > > Then what happens to the non-returner with dry insight and no jhana > attainment? > > Where is the non-returner reborn for the last lifetime before > attaining arahatship? > > I read somewhere that the non-returner with dry insight will > automatically develop jhana when death is approaching. > > It is also said that a non-returner has perfected concentration and > virtue. Is it because most of the hindrances (except sloth and > torpor and restlessness) have been eradicated? > > Is it also possible that jhana kamma from the infinite past might > condition the rebirth in the brahma realms (since it is said the non- > returner cannot be reborn in the sensuous realm anymore)? 19061 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] The use of verse in the Suttas, Rob Ed Hi Herman, Rob Edison knows all about verses and also how not to translate them. If the Islandic fishermen leave him in peace it would be nice to hear from him. He made once a very good diagram but I lost the end. Like to hear it again. No rhyme, but different metres, very difficult subject for me. The length of the sentence was also adapted to suit the metre. For rehearsing texts verses may be easier. Pali is to be read aloud, it sounds very good. op 24-01-2003 08:01 schreef Egberdina op hhofman@t...: > Hi all, > > According to the suttas, the Buddha quite often spoke in verse, as > opposed to discursive speech. In the original language versions of the verse I have referred > to, what structure did the verse take? Is there anything like iambic > hexameters in Pali? Is there rhyme in the verse at all? Was it meant > to be rhythmically delivered? 19062 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, questions Dear Larry and all, just a few remarks. op 24-01-2003 00:52 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commntary, The Section on > Breathing, p.53 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his > mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'" > Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He > thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no woman, > no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I", nothing that is > mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca attli, na > satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na attaniyam naham, na > mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati paccupatthita hoti]. Nina: This is realized not through thinking, he must have developed all the stages of insight. It does not mean; just saying there is no man. As was discussed before: texts are always very short about the development of insight stage by stage, not many details are given. > Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose. > > Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance." Nina: patissati: he translates as remembrance. Why? It must be keen awareness of nama and rupa. See the following phrase: >That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and further > measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam uttaruttari > ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the increase of > mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning. ...... > In this section on breathing, the mindfulness which examines the > respirations is the Truth of Suffering. The pre-craving which brings > about that mindfulness is the Truth of Origination. Nina: pre-craving, I have heard this before. Pali has: Tassaa samu.t.thaapikaa purima ta.nhaa samudayasacca.m. Purima ta.nhaa: former craving, craving in the past. Still, a difficult sentence. >The non-occurrence > of both is the Truth of Cessation. The Real Path which understands > suffering, abandons origination, and takes cessation as object, is the > Truth of the Way. Thus having endeavored by way of the Four Truths, a > person arrives at peace. Nina. 19063 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 0:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Hi Howard, I never know when I am speaking International English or an Australian variant. :-) Regarding the word 'larrikin' - in every day usage, it is an term (perhaps derived from 'larack, to frolic') used to mean someone from whom there is unconventional speech or behaviour. Their speech is usually bluntly honest, irrepressible and sometimes slightly shocking or tongue-in-cheek. It can be variously applied to have an affectionate friendly meaning (as was my intention with regard to Herman) or, rarely, as a criticism (not my meaning.) It is a little like the word 'rascal' - which nowadays, in Australia, is used to describe someone who is a little naughty but endearing, often a child. In Papua New Guinea, just to our north, the term 'rascal' is used to mean an adult who is a criminal and often a member of a violent gang. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Chris - > Your compassionate understanding is much appreciated! > BTW, I'm not familiar with the term 'larrikin'. Is that the Oz > equivalent to the Pali 'arahant'? ;-)) > > With modest metta, > Howard 19064 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 0:47pm Subject: Re: The use of verse in the Suttas Hi Herman, The Poetry Sutta is in "The Connected Discourses of the Buddha, a New Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya" by Bhikkhu Bodhi. It is on page 130 of Volume I, The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga), Chapter 1 'l Devatasamyutta, Connected Discourses with Devatas' (for some inexplicable reason, it is in a sub-section entitiled VI Old Age). [Regarding the term 'cobber' (and if you say it means sakadagami who am I to object?) - I just have one problem ... was I commiting 'blasphemy' or 'heresy'when I named my fox-terrier dog 'cobber' years ago? I rely on you to straighten out my confusion of this matter, Herman :-))] metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Thanks so much for this. > > I need to confess my ignorance, I can't find anything that clarifies > the meaning of S.I. I'm pretty sure it's not Smithsonian Institute or > Sports Illustrated. Want to rake up some more merit :-) > > Thanks, cobber (that's something like sakadagami for the uncouth) > > Herman > 19065 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 1:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Intimation through body and speech, intro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Could you please do not go deep about rupa.Learn rupa as a basis for understanding of Abhidhamma.I hope you learned well in Dhamma. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > Dear Htoo Naing, I think it is best to let the moderators of the group decide whether someone is sending appropriate letters. You don't like details about rupa but some may. You see vinnati(kaya and vaci) is so common, knowing about the details helps awareness of them to arise.For instance here is a passage about verbal intimation (vacivinnati)– "the mode and the alteration in the consciousness-originated earth element that causes that occurrence of speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung to matter….." This is not just theory – it happens everytime we talk to others. Speech is merely these elements, not us. You see before I learnt the details of Abhidhamma I believed that evrything was anatta but, nonetheless, when I spoke I had the feeling it was "me" speaking. Contemplating passages like this helped to bring attention to every little moment in life and break it down into its component parts. Then the development of awareness becomes very daily - not just something to do while we are alone or in a special place. It is all Dhamma, all the time. Nina gave the example of someone waving. It is simply kayavinnati, a type of rupa, conditioned by nama - a puppet- and yet without awareness we think it to be a being, either 'ourself' or another (attasanna). Very good to be reminded of the truth.I find the passages from the atthakatha and Tika on these matters are so helpful, I hope Nina will add more. robertK 19066 From: James Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 1:27pm Subject: Re: Perception is the Ultimate Reality --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > It is not to my understanding that Perception and Intention are the > same thing. The Buddha had never said that Kamma and Perception are > the same thing. It is only your own wishful extrapolation. > > If you can't find any sutta quote that says directly that only the > aggregate of perception is ultimate and the rest are mundane, just > admit it. > > If you need time to search for it, just say so. > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon Hi NEO, Before further discussion, I think you need a better understanding of the terms involved. Look up the definitions for perception and intention in the dictionary and determine, using common sense, if one can occur without the other. Then look in the suttas and find the difference between the aggregates and the clinging aggregates, of which there is a difference. When you have learned these things for yourself, post again. If you need time to find this information, just say so. Metta, James 19067 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 2:39pm Subject: Re: Perception is the Ultimate Reality Hi James, and Swee Boon, Words are often used in a different sense within Buddhist scriptures than in dictionaries of a foreign language (English) written 2500 years after the Teachings. Maybe you could both use Nyanatiloka's online Buddhist Dictionary as a baseline for your discussions? Perhaps you could start with sanna, chanda, cetana, kamma http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm It also may be worth an expanded reading of some terms in 'Cetasikas' at: http://www.vipassana.info/contents-vipassana.htm metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " > wrote: 19068 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 2:59pm Subject: Re: The use of verse in the Suttas Hi Christine, I found it !!! (only after much help. Thanks a bunch) When it comes to your transgressions, I find myself able, at this time, to suspend all judgement on the matter. Hence, there will be no stone throwing from me in the case of the woman taken in blasphemy or heresy. (How not to give an answer in three easy lessons :-)) I'm sure cobber has been true to his name. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Herman, > > The Poetry Sutta is in "The Connected Discourses of the Buddha, a New > Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya" by Bhikkhu Bodhi. It is on page > 130 of Volume I, The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga), Chapter 1 'l > Devatasamyutta, Connected Discourses with Devatas' (for some > inexplicable reason, it is in a sub-section entitiled VI Old Age). > > [Regarding the term 'cobber' (and if you say it means sakadagami who > am I to object?) - I just have one problem ... was I > commiting 'blasphemy' or 'heresy'when I named my fox-terrier > dog 'cobber' years ago? I rely on you to straighten out my confusion > of this matter, Herman :-))] > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " > wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > > > Thanks so much for this. > > > > I need to confess my ignorance, I can't find anything that > clarifies > > the meaning of S.I. I'm pretty sure it's not Smithsonian Institute > or > > Sports Illustrated. Want to rake up some more merit :-) > > > > Thanks, cobber (that's something like sakadagami for the uncouth) > > > > Herman > > 19069 From: Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, questions Hi Nina, Are you disagreeing or making a point about different kinds of thinking? Way 41: "Or, indeed, his mindfulness is established, with the THOUGHT: 'The body exists.'" Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He THINKS: There is the body, but there is no being..." Nina: This is realized not through THINKING, he must have developed all the stages of insight. Larry 19070 From: Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentration Hi Howard and Htoo Naing, I also am unclear about the meaning of ekagatta. I have often wondered if Attention Deficit Syndrome (ADS) is a problem with the ekagatta cetasika. A few people have a natural ability to concentrate on a problem or topic with great skill and depth, but others struggle to even pay attention. Certainly great understanding can be achieved with concentration, but insight seems almost magical. Clouds part and we see clearly. Somehow, tranquility is mixed with concentration to make samadhi. This seems to change one's outlook, or predisposition. How do you guys sort out these various elements? Larry 19071 From: James Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:28pm Subject: Re: Perception is the Ultimate Reality --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi James, and Swee Boon, > > Words are often used in a different sense within Buddhist scriptures > than in dictionaries of a foreign language (English) written 2500 > years after the Teachings. Hi Christine, I looked at those definitions for sanna (perception), chanda (intention), cetana (volition), and kamma (action). They pretty much fit the standard definitions found in any English dictionary. I am not sure what you are driving at. As far as Cetasikas, I don't believe in them. I only believe in cittas. The mind cannot perceive things with double faculties. There aren't two minds. There is only the `effect' of cetasikas existing because of the echo of feedback from single mind states. That is one of the errors with introspection in determining brain function. However, even these echoes affect subsequent cittas, so it is a minor point of contention. However, I am not sure what you are driving at. Could you clarify? Metta, James 19072 From: Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Hi, Christine - Thanks. It apparently is mainly an Australian usage. I found the following on AOL. Main Entry: lar·ri·kin Pronunciation: 'lar-i-k&n Function: noun Etymology: origin unknown Date: 1868 chiefly Australian : HOODLUM, ROWDY - larrikin adjective With rowdy metta, Howard In a message dated 1/24/03 3:39:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I never know when I am speaking International English or an > Australian variant. :-) > > Regarding the word 'larrikin' - in every day usage, it is an term > (perhaps derived from 'larack, to frolic') used to mean someone from > whom there is unconventional speech or behaviour. Their speech is > usually bluntly honest, irrepressible and sometimes slightly shocking > or tongue-in-cheek. It can be variously applied to have an > affectionate friendly meaning (as was my intention with regard to > Herman) or, rarely, as a criticism (not my meaning.) > It is a little like the word 'rascal' - which nowadays, in > Australia, is used to describe someone who is a little naughty but > endearing, often a child. In Papua New Guinea, just to our north, > the term 'rascal' is used to mean an adult who is a criminal and > often a member of a violent gang. > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Chris - > > > Your compassionate understanding is much appreciated! > > BTW, I'm not familiar with the term 'larrikin'. Is that the > Oz > >equivalent to the Pali 'arahant'? ;-)) > > > >With modest metta, > >Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19073 From: nidive Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:47pm Subject: Re: Perception is the Ultimate Reality Hi James, > Look up the definitions for perception and intention in the dictionary > and determine, using common sense, if one can occur without the other. If intention depends on perception for its arising, then this means that kamma is different from perception. If the present moment depends on the previous moment for its arising, does that mean that the present moment is the same as the previous moment? If this is what you imply by "one can occur without the other", then kamma (intention) is different from perception. Kamma (intention) would then be mundane and perception would then be ultimate. For it is through perception that kamma arises (as you claimed). This is in contradiction with what you say: Kamma is the only Ultimate Reality. It cannot be Ultimate Reality, because it is fabrications. In the same manner, if feeling depends on perception for its arising, then this means that feeling is different from perception. If that is the case, isn't feeling then mundane? Is perception the root, or is intention (kamma) the root? > Then look in the suttas and find the difference between the aggregates > and the clinging aggregates, of which there is a difference. "Whatever (mental) fabrications are past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: those are called the aggregate of fabrications. "Whatever (mental) fabrications -- past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- are clingable, offer sustenance, and are accompanied with mental fermentation: those are called fabrications as a clinging- aggregate. Please read carefully, James. There is really no difference between them. The aggregate of fabrications is only a clinging-aggregate when there is clinging, craving as sustenance, accompanied with mental fermentation. If there is no craving, then the aggregate of fabrications is not a clinging-aggregate. Please note the phrases "those are called the aggregate of fabrications" and "those are called fabrications AS a clinging- aggregate". Please note the use of the word "AS". The Buddha is not defining another aggregate of fabrication. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19074 From: Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentration Hi, Larry (and Htoo Naing) - In a message dated 1/24/03 7:24:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard and Htoo Naing, > > I also am unclear about the meaning of ekagatta. I have often wondered > if Attention Deficit Syndrome (ADS) is a problem with the ekagatta > cetasika. A few people have a natural ability to concentrate on a > problem or topic with great skill and depth, but others struggle to even > pay attention. Certainly great understanding can be achieved with > concentration, but insight seems almost magical. Clouds part and we see > clearly. Somehow, tranquility is mixed with concentration to make > samadhi. This seems to change one's outlook, or predisposition. How do > you guys sort out these various elements? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm afraid I'm not at all clear on this issue or satisfied with any explanations I've read or heard. I personally find this to be an area of weakness in Abhidhamma, an area of imprecision. I don't find myself satisfctorally "sorting out" any of this. I am blissfully unknowing with regard to this issue. I only have questions, no answers. (Hey! Maybe that's not so bad!! ;-)) --------------------------------------------- > > Larry > ======================= With a concentrated dose of metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19075 From: azita gill Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dukkha as Medicine? --- "bodhi342 " wrote: > Hello Christine, > > Thank you for your detailed message. I appreciate > your pointing > out that most everything worldly revolves around > Anicca, and that > anatta and dukkha are derivatives. Further that > dukkha is more > than just dukkha-dukkha, including (as kindly > pointed out by Sarah) > the nature of change and of the impermanent nature > of conditioned > realities> > metta, > dharam > hello dharam and others, not sure about 'dukkha as medicine'. the way I see it all things are dukkha, including the very enjoyable events in our lives. Altho. I do remember K. Sujin asking us did we really want to stop seeing, hearing etc. esp. when all was pleasant. I think I understand the point you are making, but we have to remember that dukkha is also anatta and anicca. It is not 'my' dukkha; it just is. which brings me to the question I have on Mana, to be kindly answered by anyone who can help me out here. Mana does not arise with Ditthi, right? But in my observation, it would seem that they somehow are very closely connected. for example, when we are comparing ourselves to the others, we have this view of the others as being something to be compared with. Surely we are having a 'view' at that moment. I know citta and cetasikas arise and fall away extremely quickly and that Mana and Ditthi may, given the right conditions, be closely associated, but I would like some advice here, please. > BTW, just want to say thanx to all posters, I have found many of the posts so helpful; maybe [for those who are aware of my computor skills] I am just getting better at sitting and reading. may we all have lots of patience, courage and good cheer. Azita. > > 19076 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:59pm Subject: Re:The use of verse in the Suttas Dear Herman, I have scanned the first gathaa of the Dhammapada so you can see its metrical structure. The metre is fairly common for the gaathaa-s found in the Tipitaka as far as I can tell. manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa, manose.t.thaa manomayaa; manasaa ce padu.t.thena, bhaasati vaa karoti vaa; tato na.m dukkhamanveti, cakka.m va vahato pada.m. -- Dhp 1 s / l l l /_s l l_/ l, s / l l l /_s l s_/ l s / s l l /_s l l_/ s, l / s s l /_s l s_/ l s / l l l /_s l l_/ s, l / l s s /_s l s_/ l Notes: 1. 's' refers to an open syllable with a short vowel (laahu -- light). 2. 'l' refers to an open syllable with a long vowel or a closed syllable with a short or long vowel (garu -- heavy) 3. The metre is pathyaavatta which contains the trisyllables: _s l l_ (ya-ga.na) and _s l s_ (ja-ga.na) in their respective positions shown above. 4. The first trisyllable after the 1st syllable of each line of 8 syllables cannot be a sa-ga.na (s s l) nor a na-ga.na (s s s) but note an anomaly in the second half of the middle line above. Anomalies are often seen in the Pali verses, a common one being an additional syllable (a line having 9 instead of 8 syllables). My information is based on a beginner's study I did in 2000 of small parts of an English translation of the Vuttodaya by Dr. B. Jinananda published in The Nava Nalanda Mahavihara Research Publication, Vol. II, pp. 161-234 -- Varanasi, 1960. Best wishes, Jim In a message dated Fri, 24 Jan 2003 07:01:49 -0000, Herman wrote: << After this long intro, which was designed to make anyone who was going to call me fat or an arahant think again :-), my question is this: In the original language versions of the verse I have referred to, what structure did the verse take? Is there anything like iambic hexameters in Pali? Is there rhyme in the verse at all? Was it meant to be rhythmically delivered? >> ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca 19077 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 5:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentrationn Htoo Naing and Howard First, welcome from me to the list, Htoo Naing. Thanks for posting this info about ‘concentration’ as used in the conventional sense of repeatedly taking the same object. I can see you have an extensive and detailed knowledge of the teachings. Howard, the role of vitakka cetasika here rings a bell. I believe it was mentioned in a discussion we had on the same subject previously(quite some time ago now). I just checked in Nina’s ‘Cetasikas’ and found the following-- << << << Both vitakka and vicara are jhana-factors which can be developed in samatha, tranquil meditation. ... Vitakka which is developed in samatha "thinks" of the meditation subject and it inhibits the hindrances which are sloth and torpor (thina and middha). The Visuddhimagga states in the definition of vitakka IV, 88): "... for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to hove the abject struck at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought..." Thus, in samatha vitakka "touches" the meditation subject again and again until calm has developed to the degree that jhana can be attained. >> >> >> http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas10.html Jon --- Htoo Naing wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > Maintaining an object that you said is a matter of Vitakka.Ekagatta > works to calm all Cetasikas and Citta as well by fixing at an > Aramana.Unlike Ekagatta,Vitakka maintain all other mental factors > to an Aramana at next successive cittas.You will know there are > differences in mental strength among people.It is not quite to say > one pointedness.Try to see inside of your mind and find who is > Ekagatta.With long long practice you will be aware of its > existance.Cetasika is quite difficult to explain but it worths > explained. > > Hoping the best understanding. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 19078 From: azita gill Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Intimation through body and speech, intro --- "rjkjp1 " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing > > > > Dear Htoo Naing, > I think it is best to let the moderators of the > group decide whether > someone is sending appropriate letters. You don't > like details about > rupa but some may. [snip] > find the > passages from the atthakatha and Tika on these > matters are so > helpful, I hope Nina will add more. > robertK > > dear Htoo Naing and Robert, firstly, I also hope that Nina will add lots more of this type of matter, I find it so helpfull to read about daily life, and what constitutes daily life from buddhist point of view. We live this daily life, there is nothing else, therefore beneficial to know and understand so that wisdom can develop and one day, eradicate kilesa. Htoo Naing, I'm sure you asked Nina to go 'slow' because you really want to understand, so I encourage you to ask as many questions as you see fit. We all learn from the others questions and answers. cheers, Azita. > > > > > > > 19079 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 6:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha as Medicine? Dharam Welcome to the list from me, and sorry for being slow in getting back on your interesting comment. --- "bodhi342 " wrote: > Hello, ... > We know a little about the cause of Dukkha. We know a little about > the manifestations of Dukkha. We know a little about the > consequences of Dukkha. > > Do we know whether Dukkha itself points to its resolution? Just a comment here about dukkha as used in the texts. Dukkha is an *attribute or quality* of this life and of the phenomena that comprise it. It is not a phenomenon in itself. It seems to me that we can only talk about dukkha in the context of the thing to which that quality pertains, rather than as something in isolation. > One could speculate that if it were not for Dukkha, Buddha would > not have been driven to find out more... > > Seems Dukkha awakens us from the deep sleep of illusion. Most of > us seeking the truth, are moved to do this as a consequence of > experiencing unpleasant dukkha. Therefore dukkha is our benefactor > in disguise :-). Without dukkha, we would not be moved to reach out > for understanding/help. Without Dukkha would we be able to revive > our inner consciousness? Dukkha itself is the first line therapy! If this was so in any meaningful sense, the implication would be something like, 'if you've experienced dukkha, you're on the way to becoming awakened', or even 'the more dukkha, the more awakened', neither of which of course has any validity. But it is I think true to say that unless dukkha is sufficiently apparent, its truth cannot be realised. For this reason, beings with little developed understanding but existing highly refined and pleasant realms may not be susceptible to the teachings. So, 'dukkha as medicine', perhaps no; 'dukkha as a necessary stimulus', definitely yes! Jon 19080 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 6:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Did the Buddha have any control? Ranil (and All) Thanks for this. I'm afraid I still can't find 'eeshwara' anywhere. Can anyone help with this term? Thanks. Jon --- ranil gunawardena wrote: > Dear Jon, > > "eeshwara" means King, Have control of, Ruler...etc. > > The Buddha also acquires the "eeshwara"ness to the following, > > Jhana - (Jhana samapaththi - Samadhi ) - so called, > "samadhi-samapaththeeshwara" > Irrdhi - so called, "Irrdeeshiwara" > Dhamma - so called, "Dhammeshwara" > Sanga- so called, "Sangeshwara" > Gana - so called, "Ganeshawara" > Loka - so called, "Lokeshawara" > > ~meththa > ranil 19081 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 7:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentrationn Hi Htoo Naing, I am a little confused, perhaps you or anyone else reading this can shed some light on the issue. I have understood that Ekagatta accompanies all cittas. If this is incorrect, than the problem is solved. What I don't understand is how the mind can discern a state if it is always there. We only identify things by change, for example we know panna through it's absence, we can tell the difference between it being there and not being there, same with sati etc etc. I hope I am clear. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: > > Dear Howard, 19082 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 7:26pm Subject: Re:The use of verse in the Suttas Thank you Jim (and Nina), This is more information than I dreamed of hoping for. All the best Herman 19083 From: bodhi342 Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 7:47pm Subject: Re: Dukkha as Medicine? Hello Azita, Thanks for your response. How many enjoyable events move us to be willing to seek understanding just by themselves? They are more 'seductive' in keeping us in the state of illusory sleep than painful events, don't you think? I would suggest that if is often the painful aspects of dukkha that lead us to seek understanding of phenomenon. Or, the perception of unsatisfactoriness that lead to the pursuit of more understanding. Perception seems to be important here, or am I wrong? May I ask what the answers were to K. Sujin's insightful question about really wanting to stop seeing, hearing etc. esp. when all was pleasant? I must say a question like this gets to the practical application of knowledge very efficiently, indeed. metta, dharam 19084 From: Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 8:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Did the Buddha have any control? Hi Jon, It is sometimes spelled isvara, ishvara for sanskrit. The pali is issara. http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ddsa/getobject_?HTML.a.0:3170./projects/artfl0/databases/dicos/philologic/pali/IMAGE/ Larry 19085 From: bodhi342 Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 8:07pm Subject: Re: Dukkha as Medicine? Hello Jon, JA: "Just a comment here about dukkha as used in the texts. Dukkha is an *attribute or quality* of this life and of the phenomena that comprise it. It is not a phenomenon in itself. It seems to me that we can only talk about dukkha in the context of the thing to which that quality pertains, rather than as something in isolation." D: Yes, apart from the state of this life in a much more general sense, it also seems to be a specific quality we perceive in various situations. This I think applies to all those listed by Sarah recently. So while all existence is dukkha, yet within that existence we may perceive unsatisfactoriness - here a more specific quality. This for example may appear as the more conventional suffering of sentient beings, and yet still results in a desire for understanding the skewed nature of existence. JA: " If this was so in any meaningful sense, the implication would be something like, 'if you've experienced dukkha, you're on the way to becoming awakened', or even 'the more dukkha, the more awakened', neither of which of course has any validity." D: Correct, these extrapolations do not have any validity, but that was not what I was implying. A stimulus does not necessarily lead to an effect every time. The desired effect may occur only when the conditions are right (Sukin has been drumming this into my noggin ;-)). However, without dukkha there is no impetus/motivation to seek relief/understanding. So, true, true but unrelated! JA: "But it is I think true to say that unless dukkha is sufficiently apparent, its truth cannot be realized. For this reason, beings with little developed understanding but existing highly refined and pleasant realms may not be susceptible to the teachings." D: Exactly. JA: "So, 'dukkha as medicine', perhaps no; 'dukkha as a necessary stimulus', definitely yes!" D: Excellent point, and well taken. Thank you. metta, Dharam 19086 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 8:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentrationn --- Dear Herman, Citta, the chief in experiencing, is also never absent in that it arises and falls aways but there is no space between cittas. How is it discerned? Well it is present here and now but usually it is taken as self: there is the perception that I see, hear, know, understand. It is the function of panna (wisdom) a conditioned mental factor, in association with sati and other factors (including samma-samadhi) to discern the nature of citta. Even though citta is never absent there are different conditions for each citta - one is never exactly the same as the other. Cakkhu- vinnana (seing consciousness) is different from sota-vinnana(hearing) and so. Likewise each moment of ekaggata is different, in varying degrees, from other moments. robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > I am a little confused, perhaps you or anyone else reading this can > shed some light on the issue. > > I have understood that Ekagatta accompanies all cittas. If this is > incorrect, than the problem is solved. > > What I don't understand is how the mind can discern a state if it is > always there. We only identify things by change, for example we know > panna through it's absence, we can tell the difference between it > being there and not being there, same with sati etc etc. I hope I am > clear. > > > > All the best > > > Herman > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing > wrote: > > > > Dear Howard, 19087 From: Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Did the Buddha have any control? Hi, Jon - I think the term, also given in English as Ishvara, is Sanskrit for 'God'. As I recall, it is the personalized aspect of the Hindu deity, with Brahman being the impersonal godhead. It has also been used as a part of a name. For example there is the Mahayana Bodhisattva called Avalokitesvara. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/24/03 9:32:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Ranil (and All) > > Thanks for this. I'm afraid I still can't find 'eeshwara' anywhere. > Can anyone help with this term? Thanks. > > Jon > > --- ranil gunawardena wrote: >Dear Jon, > > > >"eeshwara" means King, Have control of, Ruler...etc. > > > >The Buddha also acquires the "eeshwara"ness to the following, > > > >Jhana - (Jhana samapaththi - Samadhi ) - so called, > >"samadhi-samapaththeeshwara" > >Irrdhi - so called, "Irrdeeshiwara" > >Dhamma - so called, "Dhammeshwara" > >Sanga- so called, "Sangeshwara" > >Gana - so called, "Ganeshawara" > >Loka - so called, "Lokeshawara" > > > >~meththa > >ranil > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19088 From: Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentrationn Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/24/03 10:08:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > I am a little confused, perhaps you or anyone else reading this can > shed some light on the issue. > > I have understood that Ekagatta accompanies all cittas. If this is > incorrect, than the problem is solved. > > What I don't understand is how the mind can discern a state if it is > always there. We only identify things by change, for example we know > panna through it's absence, we can tell the difference between it > being there and not being there, same with sati etc etc. I hope I am > clear. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: You are clear to me. This is what I meant - or close to what I meant - in saying that such a cetasika is redundant. -------------------------------------------- > > > > All the best > > > Herman > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19089 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Did the Buddha have any control? Many thanks for this, Howard (I thought it was probably a Sanskrit term). Jon (PS to others. Just because Howard manages to get away with Mahayana AND Hindu references in a post doesn't mean the rest of you should get any ideas ...;-)) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I think the term, also given in English as Ishvara, is > Sanskrit for > 'God'. As I recall, it is the personalized aspect of the Hindu > deity, with > Brahman being the impersonal godhead. It has also been used as a > part of a > name. For example there is the Mahayana Bodhisattva called > Avalokitesvara. > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 1/24/03 9:32:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > > > Ranil (and All) > > > > Thanks for this. I'm afraid I still can't find 'eeshwara' > anywhere. > > Can anyone help with this term? Thanks. > > > > Jon 19090 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Did the Buddha have any control? Thanks for this, Larry, especially the helpful link (which, in addition to giving some textual references, also confirms Howard's reference to Brahma) Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > It is sometimes spelled isvara, ishvara for sanskrit. The pali is > issara. > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ddsa/getobject_?HTML.a.0:3170./projects/artfl0/databases/dicos/philologic/pali/IMAGE/ > > Larry 19091 From: James Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 11:35pm Subject: Re: Perception is the Ultimate Reality --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi James, > It cannot be Ultimate Reality, because it is fabrications. > > In the same manner, if feeling depends on perception for its > arising, then this means that feeling is different from perception. > If that is the case, isn't feeling then mundane? > > Is perception the root, or is intention (kamma) the root? > (James: Well, actually perception is the root because it is from perception that one has intentions. Also, I am using the most common definiton of perception (which does match the Pali definition):1. The act of perceiving; cognizance by the senses or intellect; apperhension by the bodily organs, or by the mind, of what is presented to them; discernment; apperhension; cognition. However, you are correct, the Buddha didn't say that perception is the ultimate reality; he said that kamma was the ultimate reality. So I will grant you that. Doesn't matter to me...at least we are in agreement that nama/rupa isn't the ultimate reality as taught by the Buddha...until you try to slip out again, as I'm sure you will.) > > Then look in the suttas and find the difference between the > aggregates > > and the clinging aggregates, of which there is a difference. > > "Whatever (mental) fabrications are past, future, or present; > internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or > near: those are called the aggregate of fabrications. > > "Whatever (mental) fabrications -- past, future, or present; > internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or > near -- are clingable, offer sustenance, and are accompanied with > mental fermentation: those are called fabrications as a clinging- > aggregate. > > Please read carefully, James. There is really no difference between > them. The aggregate of fabrications is only a clinging-aggregate > when there is clinging, craving as sustenance, accompanied with > mental fermentation. If there is no craving, then the aggregate of > fabrications is not a clinging-aggregate. > > Please note the phrases "those are called the aggregate of > fabrications" and "those are called fabrications AS a clinging- > aggregate". Please note the use of the word "AS". The Buddha is not > defining another aggregate of fabrication. (James: Your statements are confused. The use of 'AS' in the sutta quote doesn't mean anything. One is titled: Aggregate of Fabrication; the other is titled: Fabrications as a clinging- aggregate. One is a aggregate, the other is a 'clingable' aggregate which offers sustenance...and you say there is no difference? You have made a huge leap in logic without explanation.) > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19092 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentration Dear Larry and Dhamma Friends, Thanks for the point you made,Larry.Attention Deficit MAY be a problem with Ekagatta.Ekagatta helps the Sampayottadhammas like Citta and other Namadhamma(Cetasikas) hold the same aramana for a long time.It fixes at that aramana and helps other namadhamma fix at that as well.As I posted in my previous letter,at each time appears a new Ekagatta.But the new Ekagatta holds the same aramana that was held by the previous Ekagattas.Each namadhamma lives a moment(for their lifespan) and that is ANICCA. In your mail,what I like is your word ''tranquility''.Ekagatta behaves like tranquility but not exactly.If Ekagattas are on the same aramana in a defined period,it can be said in a state of tranquility.And that is Samadhi.This again depending on type of aramana has two forms called Miccha-samadhi and Samma-samadhi. In Jhanacitta, Ekagattas stay on the same aramana for a long long time depending on the Aditthana of Jhanalabhis and may stay days,weeks,months,years and as long as Jhanalabhi-Puggala makes Aditthana. After Mara asked The Buddha to have Parinibbana,The Buddha asked Ananda but Ananda did not ask for The Buddha to live a long time exceeding the ordinary lifespan and The Buddha lived 80 years,which shows ANICCA.But The Buddha is not an ordinary Being and could have lived for long long long time.This is just expansion to realise the Ekagatta in Jhanacitta.True Samma-samadhi happens in Lokuttaracittas. Concentration behaves a bit differently even though there are some similarities.And it is a vague word. In the previous post,I said the strength,the power and so on referring to Ekagatta.These words the strength and the power indicate'' the ability of one's Ekagattas to stay long on the same aramana. I refer ''Ekagattas'' because there is only one and one Ekagatta at each moment but as you know The Citta happens in series without interruption then there are many Ekagattas.Actually there is only one in terms of its function.So we can refer it as single or pleural depending on situations.Most people do not see Anicca because they think they are living and think themselve all the same in the past,at the present and will be the same in the future in this life.If someone has eradicated Sakkaya-Ditthi,he will see only Namadhamma of Citta and Cetasika and Rupa-dhamma.Again,these dhammas are passing away every moment.This is for much more clearer view on Nama-dhamma including Ekagatta. So Ekagatta,Samadhi,Jhana and Concentration have some similarities but they behave on their own right and function properly.The basic thing is Ekagatta Cetasika which is one of Paramattha-dhamma. I hope Dhamma Friends will have a clear view on these matters.Thanks Larry for your comment.If there are any queries,please do not hesitate to involve in discussion.This is a discussion forum.Each helps others.Tipitaka is in Tipitaka and The Dhamma is for those who search IT.There is no reason to argue in this forum who is right and who is wrong,who is Puthujana and who is Sikkha.Ariyas will not sit in front of PC and doing ''Tic Tac Tic Tac''.You know what I mean. May you all build up Good Ekagatta and have Samma-Samadhi. With Metta Htoo Naing LBIDD@w... wrote:Hi Howard and Htoo Naing, if Attention Deficit Syndrome (ADS) is a problem with the ekagatta cetasika.Somehow, tranquility is mixed with concentration to make samadhi. How do you guys sort out these various elements? Larry 19093 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perception is the Ultimate Reality Dear James,Christine,Swee Boon and Dhamma Friends, Cetasika is a namadhamma.It is known only in Buddhism. It cannot be seen(realised) if one does not have enough Panna. So many people confuse.This is usual.Because in mind which many think that it is the only one.Yes,it is the only one and there cannot be two minds.Right.But we are not talking about mind but Abhidhamma. In our mind,Citta is the most powerful in terms of its function.Its chief function is to perceive aramana(different senses including dhamma-aramana like Pannatti,Nibbana,Sukhumarupa,5 Pasadharupa,Citta and Cetasika).There are many other namakkhandhas apart from Citta. But Citta is the leader of all Namakkhandhas.So ordinary people will realise that only Citta is their mind and the only one.Actually there are 4 Namakkhandhas,to detail-89 Citta and 52 Cetasika.At each moment there is only one citta but many cetasikas(at least 7 cetasikas) happen along with that citta.They work in our mind hand in hand. So it is not to blame who believes that there is only one mind and not realise the existance of Cetasika. Ultimate realities are four in terms of their characteristics.They are Citta,Cetasika,Rupa and Nibbana.These four can be examined in any time,anywhere,any way and by any possible means.They are Final Truth,Universal Truth and Ultimate Realities. May you have a good insight into Cetasika. With Metta, Htoo Naing "James " wrote:--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi James, and Swee Boon, > > Words are often used in a different sense within Buddhist scriptures > than in dictionaries of a foreign language (English) written 2500 > years after the Teachings. Hi Christine, As far as Cetasikas, I don't believe in them. I only believe in cittas. The mind cannot perceive things with double faculties. There aren't two minds. There is only the `effect' of cetasikas existing because of the echo of feedback from single mind states. I am not sure what you are driving at. Could you clarify? Metta, James 19094 From: Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentration Hi, Htoo Naing and Larry - Htoo Naing, in your understanding, what is the difference between a citta and an ekagatta? A citta is the focussing on or discerning of an aramanna - exactly one. An ekagatta, as you define it, seems to be the same. How, exactly, do they differ? Also, what does it mean for one ekagatta to be stronger or weaker than another? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19095 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:03am Subject: The world and dhammas - 1 Victor --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Jon, > > I would be interested to know where in the Pali Canon the Buddha > taught that "whatever is taken for oneself or the world in general > is in fact nothing more than the 5 khandhas." > > I do see some problem with the statement "whatever is taken for > oneself or the world in general is in fact nothing more than the 5 > khandhas." The problem I see is not that whether it is true or > false. The problem I see is whether the Buddha actually taught it. I am glad you asked this. It is a very important issue. To my understanding, the whole of the teachings is directed towards the development of the path to enlightenment by means of the understanding of (insight into) the true nature of the presently arising dhammas/fundamental phenomena/realities. To help people with different predispositions and levels of understanding, the Buddha presented and explained these phenomena in different ways. For ease of discussion here, I would like to expand my statement a little and then discuss it in 3 separate parts, with supporting quotes for each part. So my statement, "The Buddha taught that what we take for ourselves and the world around us is in fact nothing more than the 5 khandhas, and that each of these khandhas is not self." now becomes: (1) The Buddha taught that what we take for ourselves and the world around us is in fact nothing more than different phenomena (dhammas). (2) These phenomena are not self. (3) These phenomena can be classified in various ways, including as sense bases (ayatanas), aggregates (khandhas) and elements (dhatus). Taking the first part of that statement, "The Buddha taught that what we take for ourselves and the world around us is in fact nothing more than different phenomena (dhammas)", here are 2 suttas from the Samyutta Nikaya that I read as saying just this. 'The All' SN XXXV, 23 The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-023.html) 'The World' SN XXXV, 82 Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "'The world, the world (loka),' it is said. In what respect does the word 'world' apply? "Insofar as it disintegrates (lujjati), monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too disintegrates. "The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate... "The nose disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate... "The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate... "The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate... "The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the intellect consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too disintegrates. "Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the 'world.'" (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-082.html) I see these suttas as explaining that the conventional 'all' and 'world' of people and things is in fact different phenomena. Jon (Parts 2 and 3 to follow) 19096 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:08am Subject: The world and dhammas - 2 Victor --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Jon, > > I would be interested to know where in the Pali Canon the Buddha > taught that "whatever is taken for oneself or the world in general > is in fact nothing more than the 5 khandhas." (1) The Buddha taught that what we take for ourselves and the world around us is in fact nothing more than different phenomena (dhammas). (2) These phenomena are not self. (3) These phenomena can be classified in various ways, including as sense bases (ayatanas), aggregates (khandhas) and elements (dhatus). Now taking the second part of the statement, "These phenomena are not self", here are 2 more suttas from the same section of the Samyutta Nikaya, describing those same phenomena as 'not self'. 'The Internal as Nonself' SN XXXV, 3 "Bhikkhus, the eye is nonself. What is nonself should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' "The ear is nonself ... The nose is nonself ... The tongue is nonself ... The body is nonself ... The mind is nonself. What is nonself should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.'" 'The External as Nonself' SN XXXV, 5 "Bhikkhus, forms are nonself. What is nonself should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' "Sounds are nonself ... Odours are nonself ... Tastes are nonself ... Tactile objects are nonself ... Mental phenomena are nonself. What is nonself should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.'" (Trans CDB p.1134, 1135] Jon 19097 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentration Dear Upasaka, Thanks for your query. Citta is to do with perceiving Aramana.That is its chief function.It also leads all the Nama-dhamma.It happens in series without interruption.It is the leader,the King of all Nama-dhamma.It is the Creater of all Happenings in the Universe. Ekagatta cannot perceive itself and it is not its function.Ekagatta can never lead Nama-dhamma.But it happens in series like Citta.It appears at the same time at which Citta appears and it disappears in the same fashion like appearing. Both home on the same Watthu and both take the same Aramana. Ekagatta is Ekagatta.It chief function is to focus on an Aramana,to fix at it and not to disperse away. One Ekagatta cannot be stronger than the others. But I mean overall happening.If most Ekagatta can focus on the same object than it becomes stronger. With Metta, Htoo Naing upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Htoo Naing and Larry - Htoo Naing, in your understanding, what is the difference between a citta and an ekagatta? How, exactly, do they differ? Also, what does it mean for one ekagatta to be stronger or weaker than another? 19098 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:14am Subject: The world and dhammas - 3 Victor --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Jon, > > I would be interested to know where in the Pali Canon the Buddha > taught that "whatever is taken for oneself or the world in general > is in fact nothing more than the 5 khandhas." [(1) The Buddha taught that what we take for ourselves and the world around us is in fact nothing more than different phenomena (dhammas). (2) These phenomena are not self. (3) These phenomena can be classified in various ways, including as sense bases (ayatanas), aggregates (khandhas) and elements (dhatus).] Finally, taking the 3rd part of the statement, "These phenomena can be classified in various ways, including as sense bases (ayatanas), aggregates (khandhas) and elements (dhatus)", here are 2 more suttas from the Samyutta Nikaya showing the link between the phenomena discussed in the suttas previously quoted and the 5 khandhas. SN XXII, 48 "Whatever there exists of corporeal things, whether ... one's own or external, ... far or near, all that belongs to the corporeality group [rupa-khandha]. "Whatever there exists of feeling whether ... one's own or external, ... far or near, all that belongs to the feeling group [vedana-khandha]. "Whatever there exists of perception whether ... one's own or external, ... far or near, all that belongs to the perception group [sanna-khandha]. "Whatever there exists of mental formations whether ... one's own or external, ... far or near, all that belongs to the mental formations group [sankhara-khandha]. "Whatever there exists of consciousness whether ... one's own or external, ... far or near, all that belongs to the consciousness-group [vinnana-khandha]." SN XXII, 56 "What, o monks, is the corporeality-group [rupa-khandha]? The 4 primary elements (mahá-bhúta or dhátu) and corporeality depending thereon, this is called the corporeality-group. "What, o monks, is the feeling-group [vedana-khandha]? There are 6 classes of feeling: due to visual impression, to sound impression, to odour impression, to taste impression, to bodily impression, and to mind impression..... "What, o monks, is the perception-group [sanna-khandha]? There are 6 classes of perception: perception of visual objects, of sounds, of odours, of tastes, of bodily impressions, and of mental impressions..... "What, o monks, is the group of mental formations [sankhara-khandha]? There are 6 classes of volitional states (cetaná): with regard to visual objects, to sounds, to odours, to tastes, to bodily impressions and to mind objects.... "What, o monks, is the consciousness-group [vinnana-khandha]? There are 6 classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness." [Trans. Nyanatiloka, 'Buddhist Dictionary'] In the 2 suttas quoted from SN under the first part of the statement, the phenomena were classified by way of the 6 ayatanas (sense-bases). I believe it is these same phenomena, differently classified, that are referred to when the khandhas are described. This is most obviously so in the case of the feeling and consciousness khandhas in the 2nd extract above -- feelings and consciousness are described by reference to the same 6 sense-doors as for the ayatanas. I have set out below a more exact correlation between the ayatanas and the khandhas as I understand it (taking the expanded version of the ayatanas as explained in 'The World' sutta). Jon Correlation between 'ayatanas' and 'khandhas': - The eye [sensitive matter that is the eye-base] = rupa-khandha - Forms [visible object] = rupa-khandha - Consciousness at the eye consciousness [citta and accompanying cetasikas, other than contact and feeling (mentioned separately below)] = vinnana-khandha, sanna-khandha, sankhara-khandha (excluding phassa cetasika) - Contact at the eye [phassa cetasika] = sankhara-khandha - Whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain [feeling] = vedana-khandha - The ear, Sounds... = [As for eye & forms] - The nose, Aromas... = [As for eye & forms] - The tongue, Tastes... = [As for eye & forms] - The body, Tactile sensations... = [As for eye & forms] - The intellect [hadaya-vatthu?] = rupa-khandha - Ideas [any object of citta] = any of the 5 khandhas - Consciousness at the intellect consciousness [citta] = vinnana-khandha - Contact at the intellect [phassa cetasika] = sankhara-khandha - Whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain [feeling] = vedana-khandha 19099 From: James Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:27am Subject: Re: Perception is the Ultimate Reality --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: > > Dear James,Christine,Swee Boon and Dhamma Friends, > Cetasika is a namadhamma.It is known only in Buddhism. > It cannot be seen(realised) if one does not have enough Panna. > So many people confuse.This is usual.Because in mind which many think that it is the only one.Yes,it is the only one and there cannot be two minds.Right.But we are not talking about mind but Abhidhamma. Hi Htoo, I'm sorry, but this is sounding a lot like superstition and magic. Only if one has Panna (i.e. magical powers) they will be able to see cetasikas (i.e. supernormal occurrences); we are not dealing with the brain, we are dealing with Abhidhamma (i.e. the book of magic). This argumentation is a smack in the face to everything the Buddha taught. He did not teach things that only a select few with `Panna' could understand. Actually, he refused to teach in the developing language of Sanskrit, even though it was more precise, because only the aristocracy of his time spoke it. He wanted his message to reach everyone who wanted to receive it; and he rejected those sects and brahmans who propagated the idea of `secret knowledge'. So now I am to take the Abhidhamma as elitist. Hmmm…I may just have to start that national campaign after all. James 19100 From: nidive Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 8:13am Subject: Re: Perception is the Ultimate Reality Hi James, > However, you are correct, the Buddha didn't say that perception is > the ultimate reality; he said that kamma was the ultimate reality. > So I will grant you that. Doesn't matter to me...at least we are in > agreement that nama/rupa isn't the ultimate reality as taught by the > Buddha...until you try to slip out again, as I'm sure you will.) I am not in disagreement with you here. Granted, kamma is really the only conditioned ultimate reality. Let us take a look at an interesting sutta quote. "Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-145.html As we can see, our very existence is simply kamma. The aggregate of form is kamma. The aggregate of perception is kamma. The aggregate of feeling is kamma. The aggregate of fabrications is kamma. The aggregate of consciousness is kamma. You and I and all beings far and near are simply kamma. Seen in this way, it simply doesn't matter whether you regard the five aggregates as 'ultimate' or not. It simply doesn't matter whether you regard rupas and namas as 'ultimate' or not. Kamma, when seen rightly, is really really really the only conditioned ultimate reality. But I am not going to talk about the unconditioned ultimate reality. We had enough of that. May you realize the cessation of kamma as the Buddha taught. "And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the cessation of kamma. > One is a aggregate, the other is a 'clingable' aggregate > which offers sustenance...and you say there is no difference? You > have made a huge leap in logic without explanation. If there are two aggregates of fabrications, which one is the one that is dukkha? The "clingable" one only? Or both? If both are dukkha, what's the difference between them? If one is dukkha and another is not, doesn't that violate all that of what the Buddha taught? Unless you are telling me that the one that is not dukkha is nibbana. Or are you going to tell me that one set of aggregates is ultimate and another set is mundane? At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you clingable phenomena & clinging. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "And what, monks, are clingable phenomena? What is clinging? "Form is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire or passion related to it, is clinging related to it. "Feeling is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire or passion related to it, is clinging related to it. "Perception is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire or passion related to it, is clinging related to it. "Fabrications are clingable phenomena. Any desire or passion related to them, is clinging related to them. "Consciousness is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire or passion related to it, is clinging related to it. "These are called clingable phenomena. This is clinging." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-121.html Cling-Able means that it is possible to be clung on to. But it does not imply that it will definitely be clung on to. If there is no desire or passion related to it, clinging is not related to it; that aggregate is not clung on to. I think I have made myself clear. If you still insist on saying there are two sets of aggregates, please make a thunder (solid detailed logical explanation). Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19101 From: Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 3:42am Subject: Some Support for the "Disposition-to-Remain" Defintion of 'Ekagatta' Hi, Htoo Naing, Larry, Sarah, Robert, and all involved with this thread - From the ATI Glossary: ekaggatarammana: Singleness of preoccupation; "one-pointedness." In meditation, the mental quality that allows one's attention to remain collected and focused on the chosen meditation object. Ekaggatarammana reaches full maturity upon the development of the fourth level of jhana. (Howard comment: Note the idea of allowing the attention to *remain* collected and focussed on the object. This seems close to the disposition for "the same" object to remain during subsequent mindstates.) A definition by Khun Sujin: 5. Ekaggata-cetasika is the cetasika that is firmly established in the arammana. No matter which kind of arammana it arises to know, the ekaggata-cetasika would be focused in that arammana. But the ekaggata-cetasika that arises with akusala-citta is not as strong or as steadfast as the one that arises with kusala-citta. Any moment when citta arises and falls away continuously for long periods of time, knowing the same arammana, the characteristics of ekaggata-cetasika, which is steadfast in the arammana with each instant of citta, would appear as different levels of samadhi. Whenever kusala-ekaggata-cetasika is steadfast in the arammana of the moment, there is samma-samadhi according to the level of the specific kusala. I'd like to make a couple comments with regard to the foregoing definition: 1) Note that difference in strength of ekagatta is *not* ruled out. 2) The portion to the effect "Any moment when citta arises and falls away continuously for long periods of time, knowing the same arammana, the characteristics of ekaggata-cetasika, which is steadfast in the arammana with each instant of citta, would appear as different levels of samadhi." is very close to defining ekagatta as the tendency/disposition for the current aramanna to remain during subsequent cittas. With metta, Howard 19102 From: James Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 9:00am Subject: Re: Perception is the Ultimate Reality --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Cling-Able means that it is possible to be clung on to. But it does > not imply that it will definitely be clung on to. If there is no > desire or passion related to it, clinging is not related to it; that > aggregate is not clung on to. > > I think I have made myself clear. If you still insist on saying > there are two sets of aggregates, please make a thunder (solid > detailed logical explanation). > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon Hi NEO, Okay, there are and there aren't two different sets of aggregates. I was trying to get you to this realization on your own, but I see that that isn't going to work…so I will just spell it out. There is only one set of aggregates but what is different is the perception of them. One type of perception makes them clingable, while another type makes them non-clingable. So literally there is only one set, but practically there are two sets. Let me explain with this analogy: When one looks at a ball from a set distance and maintains that position without moving, that ball looks like a circle of color. That is one perception of that ball. However, if the person if finally able to move and see that ball from another angle or from several other angles, they finally see that it isn't a circle of color at all…it is a ball. That is a different perception of that ball. The ball hasn't changed but the perception of it has. The aggregates, and everything actually, can be understood in the same way. From the samsara existence, they are seen with one perspective, like a circle of color, and that perspective makes those aggregates clingable. However, when one becomes enlightened, or even with sufficient insight, those aggregates are seen with another perspective and there true nature is revealed, not a circle of color at all but actually a ball. When this happens, the former clinging drops away and one has an `Ah Hah!' experience. Can be quite funny actually due to the irony. And NEO, if you want a lot of Theravada text support for this, I cannot provide it. The Lord Buddha had a certain philosophy of teaching and that was that people needed to experience things for themselves, he wasn't going to give the answer. He would give a lot of clues to lead the person there, but he didn't tell it outright. However, there is a lot of support for this in Mahayana texts because they operated under a different philosophy of teaching: We might as well spell it out because they won't believe it anyway until they experience it for themselves! ;-) Metta, James 19103 From: nidive Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 9:08am Subject: Re: Perception is the Ultimate Reality Hi James, > There is only one set of aggregates but what is different is the > perception of them. One type of perception makes them clingable, > while another type makes them non-clingable. So literally there is > only one set, but practically there are two sets. OK, I get you now. It's not literally two sets. It's merely a difference in perspective. This I agree. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19104 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas and insight Dear Htoo, I like best to discuss with you on dsg, because others are also interested to listen. I think rupa is very practical, it is with us all the time. If you read the next parts you will see my intention, reminding myself and others of akusala. I end up with the puppets. I want to help others showing conditions, anattaness. Also: intimation as well as the vikara rupas are rupas which are asabhava, not with their own distinct nature. Some people think they can be aware of them, but there are many pittfalls. We have accumulated so much ignorance and clinging and knowing about pittfalls will help us to keep our heads cool. In Thailand we were reminded all the time that rupas have characteristics different from the characteristics of nama. A. Sujin explained this time, as so many times befor, that we have to remember: the first stage of insight is knowing the difference between nama and rupa, not by thinking, but by direct understanding, and this arises in a mind-door process.At this moment we do not know what the mind-door is, we know only in theory. Seeing occurs, hearing occurs, but there must be mind-door processes in between. Visible object experienced through the eyedoor is, after the process is over, experienced through the mind-door. We do not notice this, processes are so fast, the mind-door process is hidden, hidden by the sense-doors. It seems that there is seeing immediately followed by hearing, but this is not so. At the first stage of vipassana it becomes clear what the mind-door is. Rupa is realized as rupa and nama is realized as nama in mind-door processes. I only understand this in theory, but I am glad to be reminded, because we could because of our clinging make ourselves believe that we know already what we don't know yet. A. Sujin stresses this point time and again, because it is important to discern the difference between thinking and a moment of direct awareness. Another point that was brought up again: when our eyes are open it seems that it is light all the time. In reality there is light only when seeing, and not at all the other moments. Seeing is interrupted by many cittas arising in different processes. During the mind-door process, and the ear-door process, for example, it is dark. I find it so useful to know this. It helps me not to take for right awareness what is not right awareness. I enjoy talking to you, Nina. op 24-01-2003 19:46 schreef Htoo Naing op htootintnaing@y...: How are you?Rupa is a wide subject.Focus on practical matters.Study to up the practice.I think you have a clear view on Rupa.I look forward to hearing from you. 19105 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: Intimation through body and speech. no 2 Intimation through body and speech. no 2 We are inclined to take intimation as belonging to self, but bodily intimation is only a kind of rúpa, originated by citta. There is no person who communicates by gestures. Are we aware of nåma and rúpa when we gesticulate? Are there kusala cittas or akusala cittas at such moments? Most of the time there are akusala cittas, but we do not notice it. Do we realize which type of citta conditions the bodily intimation when we wave to someone else in order to greet him, when we gesticulate in order to tell him to come nearer, when we nod our head while we agree with something or shake it while we deny something? Such gestures are part of our daily routine and it seems that we make them automatically. Perhaps we never considered what types of citta condition them. Akusala citta conditions bodily intimation, for example, when we with mimics ridicule someone else or show our contempt for him. In such cases it is obvious that there is akusala citta. We should remember that bodily intimation is more often conditioned by akusala citta than by kusala citta. There may be subtle clinging that is not so obvious while we are expressing our intention by gestures. When there is mindfulness we can find out whether there is kusala citta or akusala citta. There may also be the performing of akusala kamma through bodily intimation, for example when someone gives by gesture orders to kill. There may be kusala cittas that condition bodily intimation when we, for example, stretch out our arms to welcome people to our home, when we stretch out our hand in order to give something, when we point out the way to someone who is in a strange city, when we by our gestures express courtesy or when we show respect to someone who deserves respect. However, there may also be selfish motives while we are doing so, or we may be insincere, and then there are akusala cittas that condition bodily intimation. More knowledge about citta and rúpas which are conditioned by citta can remind us to be aware of whatever reality appears, also while gesticulating. Then there is at such a moment no opportunity for akusala citta. 19106 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Rahula, M, sutta 62. no. 1. Dear friends, On Pali yahoo we are reading this sutta, and our moderator indicated his interest in the commentary. I shall now frwd it to dsg. Please, could one of you give the link to the English, so that people who are interested can read this sutta. I would rather like a translation other than ATI if possible. But I do only small parts at a time, we go very slowly. Frank, how are you doing with Pali, what are you reading or studying? I am reading this in Thai, but I am waiting for the arrival of the Pali text so that later on I have both Pali and Thai. Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Rahula, M, sutta 62. no. 1. The Commentary, the papa~ncasuudanii, states why the Buddha explained to Rahula the meditation on rupa and why Sariputta explained to him aanaapaana sati. Rahula was so attached to his body, to attabhaava. As we read in the sutta, Rahula followed the Buddha closely. He did not leave him out of sight. He admired the Buddha with his thirtytwo bodily characteristics of a Great Man and his halo. He was thinking that he himself was handsome, and when the Buddha would be the Emperor of the four continents, he would obtain the rank of advisor. The Buddha walked ahead and considered that Rahula was distracted by form (ruupaaramma.na) and that he had attachment. He thought, "Raahula is my son, he walks behind me, he has attachment (chandaraaga) that is of a householder (worldly), it concerns his body (attabhaava), thinking, I am handsome, I have a fair complexion..." We read further on that the Buddha considered that Rahula was going the wrong way, that he was erring. When Rahula's defilements would become greater afterwards, he would neither see his own benefit, nor that of someone else nor of both. He would have an unhappy rebirth, such as in hell, as an animal as a peta, he would be in the cycle of birth and death without end. Attachment (lobha) leads to ruin, and thus lobha becomes worse. Peril occurs but people do not realize that there is peril. People in the world do not know cause and effect. There is dense darkness when attachment overwhelms people. 19107 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, translation and Pali Hi Larry, You were so silent for a few days, I became worried about you. Glad you emerged. See below. op 25-01-2003 00:55 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: , > > Are you disagreeing or making a point about different kinds of thinking? > > Way 41: "Or, indeed, his mindfulness is established, with the THOUGHT: > 'The body exists.'" Mindfulness is established for the yogi through > careful scrutiny. He THINKS: There is the body, but there is no > being..." Larry, this is a matter of unfortunate translation. The Pali does not have cintati, thinking, here, but just the quotation marks ti: atthi kaayoti vaa panassaati kaayova atthi, na satto, na puggalo, na itthii, na puriso, na attaa, na attaniya.m, naaha.m, na mama, na koci, na kassaciiti evamassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa hoti. > Nina: This is realized not through THINKING, he must have developed all > the stages of insight. >atthi kaayoti : see the ti. and notice the other ti. Larry, do you get my point? I know this for sure: He realizes through insight that there is no being etc. We can all think: there is no being, but this does not mean anything. Here we see again, Pali is really necessary. Nina. 19108 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind You guys make me laugh, I can savour the subtle humour, remarks about tolerance, etc. And always a variation with metta. I am glad you all keep good cheer, Nina. op 25-01-2003 01:40 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > With rowdy metta, > Howard > 19109 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Issaro Dear Jon and Ranil, Yes, I have it. In Pali: Issaro: lord, master, creator. Same in Thai. I see Larry found it too, and others, I just saw. Nina. op 25-01-2003 03:31 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: I'm afraid I still can't find 'eeshwara' anywhere. 19110 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dukkha as Medicine?Upanisa sutta. Dear Dharam and all, about dukkha as stimulant for insight: See Wheel, 277/278, BB: Transcendental Dependent arising. Dukkha is the supporting condition for faith, etc. K II Causal Association, Upanisa sutta. It is very helpful. See below: op 25-01-2003 04:47 schreef bodhi342 op bodhi342@y...: I would suggest that if is often > the painful aspects of dukkha that lead us to seek understanding of > phenomenon. > May I ask what the answers were to K. Sujin's insightful question > about really wanting to stop seeing, hearing etc. esp. when all was > pleasant? I must say a question like this gets to the practical > application of knowledge very efficiently, indeed. Nina: Life is only one moment of experiencing an object. Life is seeing, or hearing, etc. Do we want to stop seeing, thus, to stop life now? Answer from most people: No. Nina 19111 From: Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentration Hi Htoo Naing, Thanks for your comments. Does ekagatta cetasika play a decisive role in clinging (upadana)? What clings? Larry 19112 From: Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, translation and Pali Hi Nina, I didn't understand the pali but I think I get your point, although I disagree a little. I think you are making a distinction between realization and practice, and saying practice doesn't make a difference. By "practice" I mean thinking in a discursive, contemplative way, as suggested by the commentary. I agree this isn't realization, but I think it makes a difference in accumulating right view, even if not on a deep level. Larry 19113 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 1:18pm Subject: Re: Some Support for the "Disposition-to-Remain" Defintion of 'Ekagatta' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo Naing, Larry, Sarah, Robert, and all involved with this thread - > > > (Howard comment: Note the idea of allowing the attention to *remain* > collected and focussed on the object. This seems close to the disposition for > "the same" object to remain during subsequent mindstates.) > > > A definition by Khun Sujin: > 5. Ekaggata-cetasika is the cetasika that is firmly established in the > arammana. No matter which kind of arammana it arises to know, the > ekaggata-cetasika would be focused in that arammana. But the > ekaggata-cetasika that arises with akusala-citta is not as strong or as > steadfast as the one that arises with kusala-citta. Any moment when citta > arises and falls away continuously for long periods of time, knowing the same > arammana, the characteristics of ekaggata-cetasika, which is steadfast in the > arammana with each instant of citta, would appear as different levels of > samadhi. Whenever kusala-ekaggata-cetasika is steadfast in the arammana of > the moment, there is samma-samadhi according to the level of the specific > kusala. > > I'd like to make a couple comments with regard to the foregoing > definition: > 1) Note that difference in strength of ekagatta is *not* ruled out. > 2) The portion to the effect "Any moment when citta arises and falls > away continuously for long periods of time, knowing the same arammana, the > characteristics of ekaggata-cetasika, which is steadfast in the arammana with > each instant of citta, would appear as different levels of samadhi." is very > close to defining ekagatta as the tendency/disposition for the current > aramanna to remain during subsequent cittas. > ___________ Dear Howard, As I said yesterday: "Likewise each moment of ekaggata is different, in varying degrees, from other moments." Thus certainly, as you question in point one, there are different intensities of samadhi depending on conditions. And remember ekaggatta is not arising by itself, it always comes with other dhammas that are conditioning it and being conditioned by it. Some of these such as vitakka and vicara assist ekaggata to focus on the arammana during the development of jhana. And panna is needed to understand the development in the right way. All these phenomena are performing their functions with no being or self anywhere. As Htoo Naing has indicated the highest samma-samadhi is that during the moments of lokuttara citta,and this is different from the samadhi during mundane jhana. RobertK > With metta, > Howard > > > > 19114 From: Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 1:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Rahula, M, sutta 62. no. 1. Hi all, Here are some links (english,pali) to sutta: http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/062-maha-rahulovada-e1.htm http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/062-maha-rahulovada-p.htm Larry 19115 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 3:12pm Subject: defending oneself Dear Group, My daughter is a university student and is beginning to read more about Buddhism. We met for lunch yesterday and were discussing the world political situation, peace and non-violence, and the seeming helplessness of individuals in the face of the decisions of the intra- penetrating big business and political systems. (That was with the entree.) We moved on to how Buddhists regard 'self defence'. She wanted to know whether harming or killing another can be justified from a Buddhist perspective in defense of one's nation, and what constitutes 'self defence' geoghaphically. e.g. only out to the borders of one's own country? Shouldn't Buddhists be Holy Sheep and die unprotestingly if war came? Shouldn't they be Conscientious Objectors? Shouldn't 'someone who strongly supports peace and non- harming' join the 'human shield' volunteers going to Baghdad hoping to prevent the bombing by placing themselves in strategic positions? (That was with the main course). I'm not sure I did too well in answering. Those to whom one has given birth can be scathing in their assessment of one's speech vs actions. Especially as I felt the 'human shield volunteers' remark was getting a little personal. :-)) Moving from the global level to the individual, she wanted to know if someone attacked a Buddhist or their loved ones (and escape was not possible) should they resist, using force, and possibly harm or kill the assailant before they themselves could be harmed or killed, or should they not resist in any way? Isn't it kamma (she meant vipaka)? Isn't there really no-one anyway? (This was with the dessert). We stopped the discussion when the meal ended and went to view 'The Two Towers' - no indecisiveness about morality and what action to take there! But not real life, of course. I found myself thinking over this scenario afterwards, as it is the most likely of all to occur in daily life. What should one do according to the Teachings if one is attacked and there is no-one else to help? metta, Christine 19116 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 4:22pm Subject: Re: Some Support for the "Disposition-to-Remain" Defintion of 'Ekagatta' Hi Howard, Robert, well everyone really, I can understand that through the differences in strength of ekaggata , it can be identified. And for that to happen we would need to be aware of it in flux, not as a momentary snapshot. I think the citta-vithi model of the consciousness process is fine and can be useful, as long as it only remains a model, and we don't try to make our experience fit into , rather than the other way around. The experience happens, the model notwithstanding :-) With K. Sujin's definition, for example, she talks about "the same arammana". I'm pretty sure I know what she means, but according to the citta-vithi model, if the arammana is a sense object, it won't be *the same* for very long. At times I try to be deliberately unconcentrated. This is very difficult for me. The mind always gets stuck on certain objects. Then there is awareness that it is stuck. Then it moves on to something else, and before you know it (literally) it is stuck again. I am sure that concentration and clinging are very closely intertwined. It is easier for me to be concentrated for a long time than it is to be unconcentrated for a long time. But even then, when I want to be stuck, after a while I become aware the mind has moved elsewhere. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo Naing, Larry, Sarah, Robert, and all involved with this thread - > > > From the ATI Glossary: > ekaggatarammana: Singleness of preoccupation; "one-pointedness." In > meditation, the mental quality that allows one's attention to remain > collected and focused on the chosen meditation object. Ekaggatarammana > reaches full maturity upon the development of the fourth level of jhana. > > (Howard comment: Note the idea of allowing the attention to *remain* > collected and focussed on the object. This seems close to the disposition for > "the same" object to remain during subsequent mindstates.) > > > A definition by Khun Sujin: > 5. Ekaggata-cetasika is the cetasika that is firmly established in the > arammana. No matter which kind of arammana it arises to know, the > ekaggata-cetasika would be focused in that arammana. But the > ekaggata-cetasika that arises with akusala-citta is not as strong or as > steadfast as the one that arises with kusala-citta. Any moment when citta > arises and falls away continuously for long periods of time, knowing the same > arammana, the characteristics of ekaggata-cetasika, which is steadfast in the > arammana with each instant of citta, would appear as different levels of > samadhi. Whenever kusala-ekaggata-cetasika is steadfast in the arammana of > the moment, there is samma-samadhi according to the level of the specific > kusala. > 19117 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 4:50pm Subject: Re: defending oneself --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > > I found myself thinking over this scenario afterwards, as it is the > most likely of all to occur in daily life. What should one do > according to the Teachings if one is attacked and there is no-one > else to help? > > metta, > Christine Hi Christine, I often find myself thinking over the issues you and your daughter discussed. I tend to do that as I am sitting behind my computer, comfortable office chair, Bach expounding some fugue theme in the background, refreshments at hand, in short, I think about these things when there is no threat in any way shape or form. I think that in a case of threat, the reaction will come first, the thought what should I have done will come later. And I don't think that the post reaction analyses themselves will do much to change the reaction next time, unless at the time of threat there is a different awareness of what is actually happening. Having said all that, I would not hesitate to defend myself or those I am with. To allow anyone to deliberately hurt me (or my friends / family) would be a double failing - they have hurt me, and they have hurt themselves. And in the matter of the impending Bush / Blair / Howard sponsored blooddbath (in comparison to which Twin Towers will seem like a 60's sitcom), the best I feel I can do is to write letters to politicians, editors, anyone with a brain and an ear. All the very best Herman Weight Age Gender Female Male 19118 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, translation and Pali Hi Larry, Is the following relevant here? " With regard to the condition of its arising one distinguishes 3 kinds of knowledge knowledge based on thinking (cintá-mayá-paññá), knowledge based on learning (suta-mayá-paññá), knowledge based on mental development (bhávaná-mayá-paññá) (D. 33). " 'Based on thinking' is that knowledge which one has accquired through one's own thinking, without having learnt it from others. 'Based on learning' is that knowledge which one has heard from others and thus acquired through learning. 'Based on mental development' is that knowledge which one has acquired through mental development in this or that way, and which has reached the stage of full concentration" (appaná, q.v.) (Vis.M. XIV). " This is taken out of Nyanatiloka's definition of panna. Hope I'm not duplicating what has already been said. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, > > I didn't understand the pali but I think I get your point, although I > disagree a little. I think you are making a distinction between > realization and practice, and saying practice doesn't make a difference. > By "practice" I mean thinking in a discursive, contemplative way, as > suggested by the commentary. I agree this isn't realization, but I think > it makes a difference in accumulating right view, even if not on a deep > level. > > Larry 19119 From: bodhi342 Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 5:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dukkha as Medicine?Upanisa sutta. Dear Nina and all, Thank you for the reference - will try to find it. By the title, it seems to suggest that indeed dukkha is a supporting (necessary?) condition for faith. D: May I ask what the answers were to K. Sujin's insightful question > about really wanting to stop seeing, hearing etc. esp. when all was > pleasant? I must say a question like this gets to the practical > application of knowledge very efficiently, indeed. Nina: Life is only one moment of experiencing an object. Life is seeing, or hearing, etc. Do we want to stop seeing, thus, to stop life now? Answer from most people: No. D: Yes, I think that would indeed be the answer. However, the eye is dukkha, seeing is dukkha, the feelings which arise on account of what is seen are dukkha. What are the implications of this choice of continuing to see? Craving to see? Attachment to both seeing and the object of sight? Would not-seeing or blindness aid in understanding to some extent? What is our state during sleep, when there may be a significant drop off in namas: seeing, hearing etc. Related: is someone blind therefore partially or fully dead? (I ask this in the conventional sense, which I think you were referring to, not in terms of Anicca). I hope you do not mind these questions which arise from a stimulating response. [I feel like Vacchagotta :-) !] metta, dharam 19120 From: dotl Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: defending oneself I am reminded about the time when Buddha lied to protect someone..(he told his pursuers that he had not seen him) I believe this comes under the eightfold path of right action... I would defend my child and myself ...using this right action. love dotl 19121 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 6:55pm Subject: RE: [dsg] defending oneself Dear Christine, According to the teachings we should not kill any living things, as per defense also we should not harm anytthings. Now, I am a Viet Veteran, I went to Viet Nam with the USA army, I was drafted and sent to fight, so I know how horrible is the war. I also have six sons and as a father I really dont know how I will react if one of my sons was being hurt. I ask this questions months ago to senior monks and their answer was that the hurting of my sons was their own accumulated Karma and I should let it go. But really, monk or no monk my children are my children and I do not want to see them suffer. The teachings said it very clear. No killing , no harming. How we react I really dont know. Metta. Venerable Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Enviado el: Domingo, Enero 26, 2003 10:13 a.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] defending oneself Dear Group, My daughter is a university student and is beginning to read more about Buddhism. We met for lunch yesterday and were discussing the world political situation, peace and non-violence, and the seeming helplessness of individuals in the face of the decisions of the intra- penetrating big business and political systems. (That was with the entree.) We moved on to how Buddhists regard 'self defence'. She wanted to know whether harming or killing another can be justified from a Buddhist perspective in defense of one's nation, and what constitutes 'self defence' geoghaphically. e.g. only out to the borders of one's own country? Shouldn't Buddhists be Holy Sheep and die unprotestingly if war came? Shouldn't they be Conscientious Objectors? Shouldn't 'someone who strongly supports peace and non- harming' join the 'human shield' volunteers going to Baghdad hoping to prevent the bombing by placing themselves in strategic positions? (That was with the main course). I'm not sure I did too well in answering. Those to whom one has given birth can be scathing in their assessment of one's speech vs actions. Especially as I felt the 'human shield volunteers' remark was getting a little personal. :-)) Moving from the global level to the individual, she wanted to know if someone attacked a Buddhist or their loved ones (and escape was not possible) should they resist, using force, and possibly harm or kill the assailant before they themselves could be harmed or killed, or should they not resist in any way? Isn't it kamma (she meant vipaka)? Isn't there really no-one anyway? (This was with the dessert). We stopped the discussion when the meal ended and went to view 'The Two Towers' - no indecisiveness about morality and what action to take there! But not real life, of course. I found myself thinking over this scenario afterwards, as it is the most likely of all to occur in daily life. What should one do according to the Teachings if one is attacked and there is no-one else to help? metta, Christine 19122 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:03pm Subject: Re: Dukkha as Medicine?Upanisa sutta. Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Dharam and all, > Nina: Life is only one moment of experiencing an object. Life is seeing, or > hearing, etc. Do we want to stop seeing, thus, to stop life now? Answer from > most people: No. > Nina I wonder why it is OK in Buddhism to have the separation of what is essentially a unity / oneness into experience (verb), the object (noun) of experience, the flavour of the object (adverb, adjective) but on no account can there be a subject (pronoun)? Surely the distinction between verb, noun, adjective, adverb and pronoun is conceptual and non-self. It would be as insidious and pernicious to conceive of adjective, verb or noun as self as it would be to conceive of pronoun as self. It is considered to be a stage of insight to be able to differentiate between nama and rupa. But why wouldn't it be a stage of insight to realise that the particular nama/rupa (which really is one, not two) is only happening to the subject? "I see blue" incorporates the awareness that there are also other things happening (the precise nature of which is unknown but including other subjects who are aware thusly "I see yellow" "I smell a rose fragrance" etc etc.) It is said the Buddha and others possessed of higher powers could "read" the mind of others. Surely they would be able to distinguish between the mind of the other and their own mind. To be able to describe this situation don't you need pronouns (which do not require the idea of self)? Wishing you, Lodewijk and your family well And all the rest of us too Herman 19123 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:43pm Subject: Same Day, Different Day Dear Group, especially the Aussies, Not having had the radio on today, and the public holiday being tomorrow, I've only just realised that today is actually Australia Day. May I offer mudita, hugs and smiles to all those who are happily celebrating the existence of our nation today and or will be tomorrow. To my Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander brothers and sisters, my metta and karuna on this day of mourning, this remembrance of the beginning to the invasion. May the wrongs be righted, May the voices be heard, May the Date be changed, May we all, one day, truly be able to say together "We are One but we are Many, and from all the lands on earth we come." Christine 19124 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:44pm Subject: Re: Some Support for the "Disposition-to-Remain" Defintion of 'Ekagatta' --- Dear herman and howard, In this brief quote A. Sujin was referring to the development of samatha and for that the same arammana, object is taken: usually a concept. It is different in vipassana where - as herman notes-the objects (the khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus) are continually changing. Herman wrote: I am sure > that concentration and clinging are very closely intertwined." -------- I thought this quite insightful. It is because clinging (lobha) is so very natural, it is our companion in samsara. Thus as soon as we try to concentrate there is the development of samadhi associated with lobha, wrong concentration. What is needed is understanding that can comprehend what kusala really is, that it is quite different from clinging. Then there can be the development of samadhi with alobha, detachment, right concentration. Many people seem to go backwards here and first try to develop samadhi- not truly seeing the right one - and, because samadhi comes with strange experiences, get excited by these and take them for stages of insight or jhana. But samma-samadhi is always associated with wisdom and non-attachment. robertk > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Howard, Robert, well everyone really, > > > With K. Sujin's definition, for example, she talks about "the same > arammana". I'm pretty sure I know what she means, but according to > the citta-vithi model, if the arammana is a sense object, it won't be > *the same* for very long. > > At times I try to be deliberately unconcentrated. This is very > difficult for me. The mind always gets stuck on certain objects. Then > there is awareness that it is stuck. Then it moves on to something > else, and before you know it (literally) it is stuck again. > It is easier for me to be concentrated for a long time than it is to > be unconcentrated for a long time. But even then, when I want to be > stuck, after a while I become aware the mind has moved elsewhere. > > All the best > > > > Herman > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Htoo Naing, Larry, Sarah, Robert, and all involved with this > thread - > > > > > > From the ATI Glossary: > > ekaggatarammana: Singleness of preoccupation; "one-pointedness." In > > meditation, the mental quality that allows one's attention to > remain > > collected and focused on the chosen meditation object. > Ekaggatarammana > > reaches full maturity upon the development of the fourth level of > jhana. > > > > (Howard comment: Note the idea of allowing the attention to > *remain* > > collected and focussed on the object. This seems close to the > disposition for > > "the same" object to remain during subsequent mindstates.) > > > > > > A definition by Khun Sujin: > > 5. Ekaggata-cetasika is the cetasika that is firmly established in > the > > arammana. No matter which kind of arammana it arises to know, the > > ekaggata-cetasika would be focused in that arammana. But the > > ekaggata-cetasika that arises with akusala-citta is not as strong > or as > > steadfast as the one that arises with kusala-citta. Any moment > when citta > > arises and falls away continuously for long periods of time, > knowing the same > > arammana, the characteristics of ekaggata-cetasika, which is > steadfast in the > > arammana with each instant of citta, would appear as different > levels of > > samadhi. Whenever kusala-ekaggata-cetasika is steadfast in the > arammana of > > the moment, there is samma-samadhi according to the level of the > specific > > kusala. > > 19125 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 8:32pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Same Day, Different Day Dear Christine, It is not a nice day here in Canberra. As you know more that six hundred houses were lost totally to the fire last Saturday. Today I am very nervous waiting to evacuate my temple. My temple is in Belconnen and we have been given warning to be ready to evacuate any minute. It is 38 C and windy and the fire is coming. Metta. Ven. Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Enviado el: Domingo, Enero 26, 2003 02:44 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] Same Day, Different Day Dear Group, especially the Aussies, Not having had the radio on today, and the public holiday being tomorrow, I've only just realised that today is actually Australia Day. May I offer mudita, hugs and smiles to all those who are happily celebrating the existence of our nation today and or will be tomorrow. To my Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander brothers and sisters, my metta and karuna on this day of mourning, this remembrance of the beginning to the invasion. May the wrongs be righted, May the voices be heard, May the Date be changed, May we all, one day, truly be able to say together "We are One but we are Many, and from all the lands on earth we come." Christine 19126 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 9:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Did the Buddha have any control? (Here's a message on this topic from Rob Edd (who's having problems getting posts through to Yahoo Groups at the moment).) --------------------------------------------- "Robert T. Eddison " Sanskrit: citta + i'svara = citte'svara Pali: citta + issara = cittissara Cittissara is an epithet of the Buddha in the Apadaana. The Ap Commentary defines it as "having mastery of the mind" (cittagatika -- a synonym for cittavaasika) and "accomplished in absorption" (jhaanasampanna). Best wishes, Robert 19127 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Same Day, Different Day Ven.Yanatharo Bhikkhu, Sir, I didn't realise the weather conditions had deteriorated again - not listening to the radio or watching T.V. has it's drawbacks. My thoughts are with you - last week at work several of my colleagues with family in Canberra were extremely worried, but I thought the worst was over. May you be safe and protected, and may the winds and temperature drop and the rains come. Please be very careful Sir, don't take any unnecessary risks, and let us all know (when you can) that you remain safe and well. with respect and metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ven.yanatharo.bikkhu" wrote: > Dear Christine, It is not a nice day here in Canberra. As you know more that > six hundred houses were lost totally to the fire last Saturday. Today I am > very nervous waiting to evacuate my temple. My temple is in Belconnen and we > have been given warning to be ready to evacuate any minute. It is 38 C and > windy and the fire is coming. Metta. Ven. Yanatharo > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: christine_forsyth > [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Enviado el: Domingo, Enero 26, 2003 02:44 p.m. > Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Asunto: [dsg] Same Day, Different Day > > > Dear Group, especially the Aussies, > > Not having had the radio on today, and the public holiday being > tomorrow, I've only just realised that today is actually Australia > Day. May I offer mudita, hugs and smiles to all those who are > happily celebrating the existence of our nation today and or will be > tomorrow. > > To my Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander brothers and sisters, my > metta and karuna on this day of mourning, this remembrance of the > beginning to the invasion. May the wrongs be righted, May the voices > be heard, May the Date be changed, May we all, one day, truly be > able to say together "We are One but we are Many, and from all the > lands on earth we come." > > Christine > 19128 From: Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, translation and Pali Hi Herman, We haven't discussed these three kinds of knowledge (thinking, learning, mental development), but it does seem relevant. Thanks for the reference and your thoughts on concentration and clinging. I'm calling concentration ekagatta cetasika, not samadhi. I think samadhi is something else altogether, specifically associated with tranquility cetasika and jhana cittas, whatever they are, but also ekagatta cetasika. How do you see it? Larry 19129 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 9:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Did the Buddha have any control? James I agree with your description of the extraordinary powers that the Buddha enjoyed. They were powers that had been developed over countless aeons. And it seems from the companion thread on 'issara' that one of the epithets for the Buddha is 'the one of controlled mind'. Nevertheless, I think it's also true to say his powers had limits. For example, the Buddha could not - stop the effects of aging, sickness or death - prevent himself experiencing akusala vipaka - 'enlighten' everyone. So I would prefer to say that he had complete control, but *within limits* (if that's not too much of a contradiction in terms ;-)). Jon --- "James " wrote: ... > Jonathan, > > I would disagree. The Buddha must have had complete control over > his body and mind. The Lord Buddha was able to multiply himself, > pass his body through solid objects, and transport his body to > alternate realms…and other enlightened monks and nuns could > levitate > and fly…according to the written suttas, which I don't think are > lying. If you think these are exaggerations or fantasy, well, > sutta- > yourself. ;-)just kidding. I don't have concrete proof. But I > think that far too many members of this group are evaluating what > the Buddha could or could not do based on themselves, and > forgetting > the highest of human potential. We are limited, the Buddha was > not. > > Metta, James 19130 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 9:59pm Subject: Re: defending oneself Hello Herman, Thanks for your reply. You say: "And I don't think that the post reaction analyses themselves will do much to change the reaction next time, unless at the time of threat there is a different awareness of what is actually happening." I agree with you. But I have actually noticed some slight changes in myself, with regard to decreasing emotional reactivity, and therefore decreasing incidents of impulsive speech or action. Once there would be emotional flare-ups that used inevitably to progress to akusala behaviour. This slight change has come about from developing the habit of reading the Texts, discussing and reflecting on the Dhamma with the aid of Good Friends. So I have hope that if I continue with 'this' habit, changes will continue to build regarding 'that' tendency. I wonder at what point one is 'not able' to break the precepts even when the consequence of non-action will be ones own death? I say 'not able' rather than 'choosing not to' because I feel eventually accumulations and conditions would be such that a choice would be only hypothetical and not actually possible. (Not wishing to wave a red flag again, Herman :-)) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I often find myself thinking over the issues you and your daughter > discussed. I tend to do that as I am sitting behind my computer, > comfortable office chair, Bach expounding some fugue theme in the > background, refreshments at hand, in short, I think about these > things when there is no threat in any way shape or form. > > I think that in a case of threat, the reaction will come first, the > thought what should I have done will come later. And I don't think > that the post reaction analyses themselves will do much to change the > reaction next time, unless at the time of threat there is a different > awareness of what is actually happening. > > Having said all that, I would not hesitate to defend myself or those > I am with. To allow anyone to deliberately hurt me (or my friends / > family) would be a double failing - they have hurt me, and they have > hurt themselves. > > And in the matter of the impending Bush / Blair / Howard sponsored > blooddbath (in comparison to which Twin Towers will seem like a 60's > sitcom), the best I feel I can do is to write letters to politicians, > editors, anyone with a brain and an ear. > > All the very best > > Herman 19131 From: James Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 10:04pm Subject: Re: Letter from Janice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear James, > Thank you for the poems again and for > explaining me why you didn't want to be a Poet writer! > Here are a few questions to assist me to answer: > > Which country do you like the best? Which > country contains the most Buddhists? Is it really true > your parents did not allow you to become a monk? How > does the Buddha teach you how to build up happiness? > > Was your sister a Buddhist? Sorry to bring > that subject up again after it had diminish quite a > long time ago! > Please send me more poems! (I hope you are > not out of poems!) > Metta, > Janice > P.S. I really like the poem on how to torture your > teacher! maybe I could try it out! Hi Star Kid Janice! Well, well, well…aren't you just full of questions! ;-) That is okay; I don't mind. I live my life very much like an open book. Whatever you want to know, just ask. Okay, let me get to your questions. Inquiring minds want to know!! ;-) Question: Which country do you like the best? Answer: I like the USA the best. I wouldn't want to live in any other country. I have traveled to France, Spain, Italy, Monaco, Thailand, Mexico, and Canada…and I always want to come back to the good ole' USA! But I do like to travel to different countries. I am thinking about traveling to China this summer, maybe even Hong Kong, and visit your teacher Mrs. Abbott. Maybe I will see you! Question: Which country contains the most Buddhists? Answer: China contains the most Buddhists. There are over 100 million Buddhists in China. However, only 8% of the population in China is Buddhist. Thailand has 56 million Buddhists but 94.21% of the population is Buddhist. I would have to say that really Thailand is the most Buddhist country with Sri Lanka running a close second with 69% of the population being Buddhist. Question: Is it really true your parents did not allow you to become a monk? Answer: For a while, my parents wouldn't allow me to become a monk but I finally convinced them that I wanted to try it. I told them that Buddhism was the most important thing to me and I wanted to try and become a monk. They finally said yes, but with one condition: they would only give me permission for one try. If that one try didn't work, they wouldn't give me permission to keep trying again and again. Since they are my parents, and I owe them my life and upbringing, I of course agreed. So I went to Thailand, to what I had been told and read was the best temple in the world for men wanting to become a monk who are interested in meditation. But I didn't like that temple at all because I felt that it wasn't sufficiently Buddhist (segregated `classes' of monks, not happy with the interest of lay people wanting to be taught Buddhism [a `feed us and leave us alone' attitude], and not living in mindful harmony with nature [putting leftover food into the woods that escalated the poisonous ant population and killed the other wildlife], all of these things were not in keeping with what the Buddha taught about being a monk, so I came back to the USA. That was my last and only chance. But I am not unhappy about that now; it was karma for me not to become a monk. After all, if I was a monk, meditating in a jungle somewhere, I wouldn't be able to answer your delightful e-mails! ;-) Question: How does the Buddha teach you how to build up happiness? Answer: The Eightfold path is the way to build up happiness. In summary: you need to know what is true happiness and what is not; you need to structure your life so that you will develop happiness; and you need to focus your mind so that you will develop happiness. Actually, seeing, finding, and keeping happiness is very common sense, but not so easy for people to do most of the time. Most people look for happiness all over the place when it is right at the tip of their noses all the time. Know the breath and you will know happiness. Question: Was your sister a Buddhist? Sorry to bring that subject up again after it had diminish quite a long time ago! Answer: No problem, my sister was a Christian/Buddhist. She believed in God and Jesus and Lord Buddha. Actually, her funeral was a Buddhist funeral. Me and my family took her ashes to my Buddhist temple shortly after she was cremated. There was a ceremony to wish her a good rebirth. And now her ashes are at my house on a Buddha altar with a Buddha statue and candles. She and the Lord Buddha are with me when I meditate. Please send me more poems! (I hope you are not out of poems!) Okay, Janice, I will end this e-mail with some more poems. I hope you are studying hard and obeying your teachers (that other poem was just for fun…please don't do any of that stuff to torture your teacher! ;-). Love, James I Should Have Studied by Bruce Lansky I didn't study for the test and now I'm feeling blue. I copied off your paper and I flunked it just like you. ******** There's a New Cook in the Cafeteria by Bruce Lansky Good Morning, staff and students. We have a brand new cook. And that's why our lunch menu will have a brand new look. To make a good impression, our cook's prepared a treat: your choice of snapping turtle soup or deep-fried monkey meat. If you're a vegetarian, we have good news today: she's serving pickled cauliflower and jellyfish souffle. And for dessert our cook has made a recipe from France: I'm sure you'll all want seconds-- of chocolate-covered ants. I hope you like this gourmet feast. I hope you won't complain. But if you do we'll have to bring our old cook back again. ********** The Aliens Have Landed! by Kenn Nesbitt The aliens have landed! It's distressing, but they're here. They piloted their flying saucer through our atmosphere. They landed like a meteor engulfed in smoke and flame. Then out they climbed immersed in slime and burbled as they came. Their hands are greasy tentacles. Their heads are weird machines. Their bodies look like cauliflower and smell like dead sardines. Their blood is liquid helium. Their eyes are made of granite. Their breath exudes the stench of foods from some unearthly planet. And if you want to see these sickly, unattractive creatures, you'll find them working in your school; they all got jobs as teachers. 19132 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 10:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: defending oneself Hi Dotl, If you could dig up the reference to the sutta about this that would be great. No hurry though, just if ever it comes to hand. I'll think about it being part of right action ... intellectually, I feel a little strange about that though - something to do with partiality for my own child or myself over another. But, as has been said - there won't be time for anything but action. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dotl" wrote: > I am reminded about the time when Buddha lied to protect someone.. (he told > his pursuers that he had not seen him) I believe this comes under the > eightfold path of right action... > I would defend my child and myself ...using this right action. > love > dotl 19133 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, translation and Pali Hi Larry, Thank you for your question. You've probably figured out that I tend to trust what I experience. It is good to discover that most people know salty taste, and that they call it variously zout, salt, du selle etc. And the truth or the reality is not in the word. I differentiate between sensing and thinking by the volatile nature of the first, and the static nature of the second. I do not understand why there would be the description of concentration in a single moment, as ekagatta appears to be. But it is not a point of contention. I think any type of concentration has to be pure thinking. And I agree with Robert K. that not all concentration is desirable. (I'm sure there is some heavy duty concentration going on in the proposed demolition / defence of Baghdad). Concentration is single-mindedness. That single-mindedness can be hateful, or it can be rapturous or many other things. All I can say is that, whether I get there with volition or without it, when discursive thought ceases I am invariably filled with a very pleasant feeling. The assumptions I could make about this state would be post hoc discursive thought, so hardly compatible. The awareness of the body and it's empirical world always returns. It makes me think that mind and body are inseparable, and that the body is primary, though it knows nothing. An empty mind is not empty, but full of joy. Be well Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Herman, > > We haven't discussed these three kinds of knowledge (thinking, learning, > mental development), but it does seem relevant. Thanks for the reference > and your thoughts on concentration and clinging. I'm calling > concentration ekagatta cetasika, not samadhi. I think samadhi is > something else altogether, specifically associated with tranquility > cetasika and jhana cittas, whatever they are, but also ekagatta > cetasika. How do you see it? > > Larry 19134 From: azita gill Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dukkha as Medicine?Upanisa sutta. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Dharam and all, > about dukkha as stimulant for insight: > See Wheel, 277/278, BB: Transcendental Dependent > arising. Dukkha is the > supporting condition for faith, etc. K II Causal > Association, Upanisa sutta. > : > > op 25-01-2003 04:47 schreef bodhi342 > op > bodhi342@y...: > > I would suggest that if is often > > the painful aspects of dukkha that lead us to seek > understanding of > > phenomenon. > > > May I ask what the answers were to K. Sujin's > insightful question > > about really wanting to stop seeing, hearing etc. > esp. when all was > > pleasant? I must say a question like this gets > to the practical > > application of knowledge very efficiently, indeed. > Nina: Life is only one moment of experiencing an > object. Life is seeing, or > hearing, etc. Do we want to stop seeing, thus, to > stop life now? Answer from > most people: No. > Nina > > dear Nina, Dharam and others, thank you Nina, this is the perfect answer. I'd like to add that if it is the dukkha aspect of life, or rather the unpleasant side of life that we worldlings call dukkha, that is the stimulus for us to seek an understanding of phenomena then maybe, just maybe, it's not motivated by wisdom, but by lobha or dosa - attachment or aversion. from my own experience, when life is very pleasant and it continues to be pleasant seemingly for a long time; when you are with the one you love or lust, when the weather is perfect, the food is delicious, dare I say it - o why not - when the drugs are 'trippy'' who wants to stop all that??? my point is, do we just not want bad feelings, not want to be separated from the things we enjoy, or is there a degree of panna that knows that ALL things are dukkha, subject to rapid change and has absolutely no substance at all. I suggest that lobha is very, very subtle and that we can even get attached to the idea of getting rid of kilesa, well in my case I'm sure this is true. 'only formations see formations with insight, comprehend, define, discern and delimit them' Vis XX83 > even the famous 'patience, courage and good cheer' is 'not me, not mine, not my self'. > Azita, from wet FNQ. aust. the only place in Aus. that doesn't seem to be on fire. > > 19135 From: azita gill Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] defending oneself --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > My daughter is a university student and is beginning > to read more > about Buddhism [snip] > I found myself thinking over this scenario > afterwards, as it is the > most likely of all to occur in daily life. What > should one do > according to the Teachings if one is attacked and > there is no-one > else to help? > > metta, > Christine > dear Chris, I can almost hear you sigh when you read this, but....... it all depends on conditions. That time in question, if it ever arises, is no different to now. there will be seeing, hearing, etc. Do you know what your reaction to the next moment will be? I listened once to some JJJ radio anouncers who were discussing cockroaches, two of the three people were gleefully relating their stories about 'dispensing with' the cockroaches, the third person was mournfully saying no matter how she went about it, she could not kill the creatures, could not make the final 'death' action - I cheered for her!! who knows how you'll react, you'll have to wait and see. cheers, Azita. > > > > > 19136 From: dotl Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: defending oneself I will do that Christine..I have been thinking about this issue a lot today.. love dotl 19137 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:01am Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Christine, Funny thing. I have noticed the same thing about myself. I would surmise that if things go on like this I would not recognise a red flag if it bit me on the posterior. It may be a bit like forgiveness, which is not so much the identifying of error and then choosing to overlook it (with an occasional reminder to milk it for what it is worth :-)), but seeing that suffering arises out of the belief in false premises. May all beings be bathed in metta May Canberra be bathed in a moderate amount of water (we don't want floods) May John Howard see no difference between the children of Baghdad and his own Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello Herman, > > > I agree with you. But I have actually noticed some slight changes in > myself, with regard to decreasing emotional reactivity, and therefore > decreasing incidents of impulsive speech or action. Once there would > be emotional flare-ups that used inevitably to progress to akusala > behaviour. (Not wishing > to wave a red flag again, Herman :-)) > > metta, > Christine > 19138 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intention, willing and no-control (was, Descriptive vs Prescriptive) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - .. .. .. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > To me, to "generate desire, endeavour, arouse persistence, > uphold & > exert one's intent for the sake of" something is quite conventional > effort. > The Buddha was very good with language, and, to me my reading is > quite > straightforward. > ------------------------------------------------- The suttas are not, as a rule, susceptible of a 'straightforward' reading, in the sense of a reading at a purely conventional level. In the passage above, for example, that would give a wrong reading right away for the expression 'generate desire' which, as we know from our studies, must be intended as a reference to kusala, not akusala, mind-states. To my knowledge, the Buddha *never* encouraged akusala mind-states of any kind under any circumstances (btw, I have yet to hear your own view on this point). In a note to his CDB translation of this sutta, Bhikkhu Bodhi summarises the commentary in the Vibhanga on this passage as follows (I give his translation first, then the summary): Sutta: 'He generates desire for the arising of unarisen wholesome states; he makes effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives.' Note: 'Briefly: - desire (chanda) is wholesome wish-to-do, wholesome righteous desire; - effort, energy and striving are all terms for energy (viriya) ... The Abhidhamma analysis treats right striving as the energy factor in the supramundane paths, which accomplishes all four functions [J: i.e., all 4 right strivings] simultaneously.' Now, whatever our own inclinations or intuition about the teachings in general or this sutta in particular, we should give careful consideration to these views of the ancients. Note particularly the reference to 'right striving' being the 'energy factor' in the supramundane paths. On the general question of interpretation of the suttas, it seems to me that we need to allow for the fact that no matter how un-conventional or non-intuitive the truths being taught, there was no choice but to employ conventional language to describe them. So if there is a pattern of the commentaries and Abhidhamma ascribing to terms from the suttas meanings and functions that differ markedly from the present-day conventional use of those terms (as translated), then perhaps the sutta references should be considered in their own light and without the 'bias' of our conventional views regarding the expressions. In this respect the Dhamma is perhaps little different from any field of study/expertise (science, economics, politics, etc), where ordinary terms take on or are given a particular, specialised meaning. It would not be fruitful to insist on treating terms of art in these areas as having their ordinary meaning. Jon 19139 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Did the Buddha have any control? Victor No disagreement from me on your statement here, Victor. 'Assuming that one is made up of the five aggregates' dos not fall within any of the skilful courses of conduct given by the Buddha, as far as I am aware. Jon --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Jon, > > It is not skillful to assume that one is made up of the five > aggregates. > > Regards, > Victor 19140 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Did the Buddha have any control? Herman --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Jon, > > In an ultimate (paramattha) sense, the picture is quire > > different. > > According to the teachings, all dhammas are conditioned and arise > > by > > virtue of a number of conditions that are unseen/unknown to us. > > Here we diverge, and probably because we have different > paradigms. "Dhamma" is used to refer to many different realities > throughout the relevant literature. I use dhamma to refer to mental > events only. And for me a more or less functioning body with a > nervous system is a sine qua non for dhammas to arise. A body > (known > about only through the mind) is always a precondition for that > mind. > Human bodies, to the extent that they function properly within some > very broad parameters, always exercise control, albeit limited. To borrow a suggestion of your own, let's not quibble over whether to call it this or that. I am happy to agree with your conclusion that: 'Human bodies, to the extent that they function properly within some very broad parameters, always exercise control, albeit limited', if only because it is so heavily qualified ;-)). (Except of course that it would be the mind rather than the body that exercises any 'control'.) It describes admirably the way the majority of people in the world would see things. It is conventionally valid, and it's useful to know. (It is also, I think you'll agree, a conclusion that does not require any knowledge of the Dhamma or any understanding of the reality of the present moment to be drawn.) > Does control have to be conscious in order for it to qualify as > control? There are literally millions of stimulus/response > reactions > taking place in my body. I am aware of about two of those per > second. > Still, I can develop awareness of many more of the control > mechanisms > of the body, after which I can, to a limited extent, consciously > interact with those control mechanisms. Again, I have no problem, as a purely conventional description of how things are, with your statement that: 'I can develop awareness of many more of the control mechanisms of the body, after which I can, to a limited extent, consciously interact with those control mechanisms.' But we have to consider whether it is the kind of knowledge that helps us get any closer to the true nature of the present reality, to escape from samsara. There are lots of conventionally true and useful bits of information to be learnt in life, but the truths regarding fundamental phenomena are said to be deep and difficult to ascertain. > > However, in paramattha > > terms, the dhammas that made up what we take for the Buddha were > > no more subject to control than the dhammas that make up what we > > take for you or me. > > The Buddha for me was never separate from his body. I was not aware I was saying anything that suggested otherwise ;-)) Thanks for you comments here. I am enjoying reading your posts of late. Jon 19141 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Rahula, M, sutta 62. no. 1. Dear Nina & All, --- nina van gorkom wrote: . > > Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Rahula, M, sutta 62. no. 1. > > The Commentary, the papa~ncasuudanii, states why the Buddha explained to > Rahula the meditation on rupa and why Sariputta explained to him > aanaapaana > sati. Rahula was so attached to his body, to attabhaava. ..... Thankyou for the detailed notes from the commentary. I had read B.Bodhi’s brief summary of the same before in his transl of MN, but appreciate the extra detail you give. I find it another good example of how only the Buddha knew exactly what was appropriate for everyone to hear or take as object of contemplation/meditation: ***** MA (BB transl) “....................hence the buddha framed his advice in terms of contemplating the body as neither a self nor the possession of a self>” MA “Ven Sariputta, Rahula’s teacher, gave Rahula this advice unaware that he had already been given different meditation instructions by the Buddha. he was misled by Rahula’s cross-legged posture into thinking that he was practising mindfulness of breathing.” ***** A little later, the Buddha gives Rahula the discourse on the elements, starting with the earth element, as Htoo explained so very well I thought in his rupas and science posts. We cling to the body or parts of the body when in truth only elements are experienced which are taken for self. ***** MA “The Buddha here explains the meitation on the four great elements rather than mindfulness of breathing in order to dispel Rahula’s attachment to the body, which had not yet been removed by the brief instruction on the egolessness of material form. ***** With metta, Sarah ===== 19142 From: Robert Eddison Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 5:07am Subject: Re: Questions about Questions I should like to thank Victor, Rob K, Howard and the others who replied. I don't have much to add at present. I'm on holiday now and am studying Jayatilleke's very lengthy treatment of the four types of question in his "Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge". It all seems a much trickier subject than I had thought. Azita asked regarding "questions to be set aside": > I was wondering if it could also > apply to mundane questions e.g. questions that are > asked on a daily basis, about work or anything. > What do you think? I don't know, but I suspect not. Such questions are very often just part of the ice-breaking routine that takes place when two people first meet. Or what in the opening of many suttas is called "the courteous and aimiable talk". I guess there may be a pretty thin line between this and "animal talk", but even when the questions posed are conducive to the latter I don't think they would be thapaniiya pa~nhaa in the strict sense of the term. Best wishes, Robert 19143 From: James Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 6:49am Subject: Re: ~ < Deep Thinker >~ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear James, > > I am really glad to receive your letter and thank you > for it. You want to find evidence before you trust - > You are a really deep thinker too! > > I want to say that 'TRUE' or 'FALSE' are deep words, > because they are different to all people, just > depending whether you believe or not. If you don't > believe that, you can say it is false, if you believe > it, you can also say it is true, so, I think it is > hard to decide what is true, what is false and what is > right, what is wrong. I asked the questions - are > those true, maybe there are no answers, but I am glad > to hear your ideas. > > Do you believe in Buddhism? If you do, does it help > you to control your emotions? In which way, and why? > > Hope you will have a happy Chinese New Year. > > Kiana. Hi Star Kid Kiana, Well, thank you for this e-mail. There is some pretty deep thinking in this e-mail for one so young! Yes, it is hard to determine true/false and right/wrong because everyone has a different perspective; but the Buddha told us each to be a `light unto ourselves'. In other words, find the answers for ourselves. Albert Einstein said that he was only great because he stood on the shoulders of great men. But I say that he had to be the one to stand on those shoulders so it was really up to him. No one could make him do that could they? It is really up to each of us to find out for ourselves what is true/false and right/wrong. You ask: Do you believe in Buddhism? If you do, does it help you to control your emotions? In which way, and why? Yes, I believe in Buddhism and yes it helps me to control my emotions (though some may disagree with that but that is because they don't understand me). Before I get into the explanation, I have to explain a little bit about control. Some people believe that you either have total control over the things in your life or you have no control and everything is determined by fate or destiny. I believe that both of these ideas are extremist and incorrect. Everything in life comes about because of conditions: if you water a plant, it will grow; if you study for the test, you will get a good grade; if you go on a diet, you will lose weight. But you see, you have to do something to something else to get the desired result. You cannot, with willpower alone like some kind of magic, make plants grow, get good grades, and lose weight. It would be nice if you could, but life doesn't work that way. If you want to control something, you have to affect those conditions that created that something. Now, to get to your question of controlling emotions: yes, you can control emotions but you cannot control them directly. You cannot, like magic, make yourself happy, sad, joyful, depressed, scared, or any other kind of emotion; you can only control that factors that create the emotion. In Buddhism, the way that one controls negative emotions is to simply observe that emotion and how it was created by a whole series of thoughts. If you stop the series of thoughts, the condition for that negative emotion, the negative emotion will go away. There are many more things I could write about this but I would end up writing a book ;-) I will just leave it at that. In short, Buddhism helps you to control emotions by letting you be mindful of the conditions that caused those emotions so that you can do something about them. This is a complicated subject and I hope you understand my answer; if not, feel free to ask more questions. Love, James 19144 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:40am Subject: intimation through body and speech, no. 3 intimation through body and speech, no. 3 Our intentions are not only communicated by gestures, but also by speech. Speech intimation (vacíviññatti) is a kind of rúpa, originated by citta. The ³Dhammasangani² ( Ch II, § 637) states: What is that rúpa which is intimation by language (vacíviññatti)? That speech, voice, enunciation, utterance, noise, making noises, language as articulate speech, which expresses a thought whether good, bad, or indeterminate - this is called language. And that intimation, that making known, the state of having made known by language - this is that rúpa which constitutes intimation by language. When someone¹s intention is intimated through speech it is then intelligible to others. The meaning of what is intimated is known after reflection about it, thus, it is cognizable through the mind-door. Speech intimation itself does not know anything, it is rúpa. The ³Visuddhimagga² (XIV, 62) gives the following definition of speech intimation [3] : Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth-element that causes that occurrence of speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung to matter [4] . Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of voice in speech. Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated earth element.... The proximate cause of bodily intimation is the element of wind or motion which is produced by citta, whereas the proximate cause of speech intimation is the element of earth or solidity which is produced by citta. According to the ³Atthasåliní² (I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 87), in the case of speech intimation, citta produces the eight inseparable rúpas and among these the element of earth or solidity (hardness) plays its specific role when there is impact producing sound. A ³certain unique change² among the great elements produced by citta conditions the impact between the sound base, a rúpa produced by kamma (called clung to matter) and the element of solidity produced by citta. Footnotes 3. See Dhammasangaùi Ch II, 636, 637, and also Atthasåliní I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 86,87, and II, Book II, Part I, Ch 3, 324. 4. According to the Commentary to the Visuddhimagga, the ³Paramattha Mañjúså² (452): ³The function (knocking together) of the vocal apparatus (clung to matter)². 19145 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:40am Subject: answers to questions Dear Larry, Herman, Daram, Azita and all, Your input is imporant, but Sunday is my busy day, I need a little time. Music for my father and dog, music with my nephews. Trying to put in some translation work too. And oh, I have to add a correction: I said Pali is necessary, but I do not want to put off my friends who do not like Pali. Pali is helpful, it depends on one's accumulations how much one will study. Accumulations again! Larry, thanks for the links very thoughtful. How to keep them alive when copying them? It does not work to copy them into my documents. Nina. 19146 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:40am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no. 18 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no. 18 The Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² (Miscellaneous Sayings) reminds us to consider our own patience : Again, only the man of wisdom can patiently tolerate the wrongs of others, not the dull-witted man. In the man lacking wisdom, the wrongs of others only provoke impatience; but for the wise, they call his patience into play and make it grow even stronger. There is a difference between a person with paññå and without it. As to the person with paññå, no matter what wrong someone else has done to him, this makes his patience grow firmer and more accomplished. As to the person who lacks paññå, the wrongs of someone else provoke an increase in impatience, the opposite of patience. We read further on: The word ³adhivåsanåya² (for endurance), means, for the need to refrain, to endure, namely, restraint. Patience in all respects with regard to our environment, in the different situations of daily life, is a test for patience or endurance. We read in the ³Gradual Sayings², Book of the Fives, Ch IX, §5, ³He cannot endure² that the Buddha said: Monks, possessed of five qualities, among his fellows in the godly life (brahma cariya), an elder becomes neither dear nor pleasant nor respected nor praised. He cannot endure forms, sounds, smells, tastes and touches. Monks, possessed of these five qualities, an elder becomes neither dear nor pleasant nor respected nor praised. By the opposte qualities, a person who can endure forms (visible objects), sounds, smells, tastes amd touches, will become, among his fellows in the godly life, dear, pleasant, respected and praised. 19147 From: Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intention, willing and no-control (was, Descriptive vs Prescriptive) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/26/03 7:27:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Jon - > .. .. .. > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > To me, to "generate desire, endeavour, arouse persistence, > >uphold & > >exert one's intent for the sake of" something is quite conventional > >effort. > >The Buddha was very good with language, and, to me my reading is > >quite > >straightforward. > >------------------------------------------------- > > The suttas are not, as a rule, susceptible of a 'straightforward' > reading, in the sense of a reading at a purely conventional level. > In the passage above, for example, that would give a wrong reading > right away for the expression 'generate desire' which, as we know > from our studies, must be intended as a reference to kusala, not > akusala, mind-states. To my knowledge, the Buddha *never* encouraged > akusala mind-states of any kind under any circumstances (btw, I have > yet to hear your own view on this point). > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't recall ever having been queried on this issue, nor do I recall ever having indicated that I thought the Buddha might encourage harmful thoughts or actions. Of course, I do not. As far as "generating desire" for something worthwile is concerned, when reading this phrase, I immediately understood 'desire' to mean 'chanda' and not 'tanha'. Actually, the sense I had for "generate desire" was to "create the intention and determination for". -------------------------------------------------- > > In a note to his CDB translation of this sutta, Bhikkhu Bodhi > summarises the commentary in the Vibhanga on this passage as follows > (I give his translation first, then the summary): > > Sutta: 'He generates desire for the arising of unarisen wholesome > states; he makes effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and > strives.' > > Note: 'Briefly: > - desire (chanda) is wholesome wish-to-do, wholesome righteous > desire; > - effort, energy and striving are all terms for energy (viriya) ... > The Abhidhamma analysis treats right striving as the energy factor in > the supramundane paths, which accomplishes all four functions [J: > i.e., all 4 right strivings] simultaneously.' > > Now, whatever our own inclinations or intuition about the teachings > in general or this sutta in particular, we should give careful > consideration to these views of the ancients. Note particularly the > reference to 'right striving' being the 'energy factor' in the > supramundane paths. > > On the general question of interpretation of the suttas, it seems to > me that we need to allow for the fact that no matter how > un-conventional or non-intuitive the truths being taught, there was > no choice but to employ conventional language to describe them. So > if there is a pattern of the commentaries and Abhidhamma ascribing to > terms from the suttas meanings and functions that differ markedly > from the present-day conventional use of those terms (as translated), > then perhaps the sutta references should be considered in their own > light and without the 'bias' of our conventional views regarding the > expressions. > > In this respect the Dhamma is perhaps little different from any field > of study/expertise (science, economics, politics, etc), where > ordinary terms take on or are given a particular, specialised > meaning. It would not be fruitful to insist on treating terms of art > in these areas as having their ordinary meaning. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: To an extent I agree with you on this, Jon. I would sound the cautionary note, however, that we - each of us - should not be too certain that we are in possession of the correct translational dictionary for these terms of art (or even that the commentators always were), and, moreover, that sometimes, as Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19148 From: bodhi342 Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:49am Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Herman, In a follow-up to your prior message you write: "May John Howard see no difference between the children of Baghdad and his own" Is it not curious that you ask of John Howard what you yourself cannot do? You are quite willing to fight to defend yourself and those around you, yet are content with less for the 'other children', in this case presumably Iraqi. I ask this not from a political viewpoint, but rather wondering about the practical application of your understanding of the dhamma. metta, dharam 19149 From: Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intention, willing and no-control (was, Descriptive vs Prescriptive) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/26/03 10:50:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > sometimes, as Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ===================== Well, maybe he only *said* it once. ;-)) With repetitive metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19150 From: Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: defending oneself In a message dated 1/25/2003 7:03:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, dotl1@o... writes: > I am reminded about the time when Buddha lied to protect someone..(he told > his pursuers that he had not seen him) I believe this comes under the > eightfold path of right action... > I would defend my child and myself ...using this right action. > love > dotl > Dot Would you please list a reference of the sutta you are referring to. I am not aware of any such story in the Suttas. However, in the Suttas the Buddha does say that from the time he became a Buddha to the time of his death, he is incapable of telling a lie. Perhaps the story you reference came from a later collection of teachings? TG 19151 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Same Day, Different Day --- Dear venerable Yanatharo, I hope the fire missed your temple? I was looking out for news on it last night. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ven.yanatharo.bikkhu" wrote: > Dear Christine, It is not a nice day here in Canberra. As you know more that > six hundred houses were lost totally to the fire last Saturday. Today I we come." > > Christine 19152 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 2:30pm Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Dharam, Herman, and All, An interesting question Dharam - I wonder if you wouldn't mind drawing out a little more just how Herman's wanting to prevent the unleashing of the Anglo-American war machine onto the civlian population of Iraq is 'being content with less for the 'other children' in this case presumably Iraqi'. I think Hermans' point was that he was hoping that the Australian Prime Minister would realise that the lives of Iraqi children (and for that matter Iraqi women and Iraqi men) are just as precious as the lives of British, American or Australian children. They should not be used as pawns in the games that the business, media, government conglomeration plays on the international stage. Large numbers of Iraqi children will begin to die if bombing of their country commences, or if the 'over a hundred thousand heavily armed American, British, and Australian troops' cross its borders and invade the independent nation of Iraq. You say: 'I ask this not from a political viewpoint, but rather wondering about the practical application of your understanding of the dhamma.' Politics is not something separate from life. Now is the only time there is. Buddhism is how we try to live daily life informed by the Teachings. It is not something idealistic and unachievable - but I find it very difficult and have differing levels of success at different times. I am always picking myself up and starting again. I think Herman was being honest about having to make instant decisions in the event of a sudden attack on himself or his loved ones. He was indicating that, as there would be no time for thinking and reflection, accumulated tendencies rather than intellectual understanding would inevitably condition his actions. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342 " wrote: > Hi Herman, > > In a follow-up to your prior message you write: "May John Howard see > no difference between the children of Baghdad and his own" > > Is it not curious that you ask of John Howard what you yourself > cannot do? You are quite willing to fight to defend yourself and > those around you, yet are content with less for the 'other children', > in this case presumably Iraqi. > > I ask this not from a political viewpoint, but rather wondering about > the practical application of your understanding of the dhamma. > > metta, > dharam 19153 From: dotl Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: defending oneself I read this many years ago, and have been going through my library to try and find the reference..perhaps it was ex sutta-will keep looking! love dotl 19154 From: dotl Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: defending oneself good response Christine.. I am reminded of a line in one of Stings songs.."Russians love thier children too" May I step out of bounderies here and ask for karuna for the people of Palestine this morning..3 1/2 million of them are now virually penned down in thier own country by the Israeli army..another 8 year old boy killed there this morning.. There is an election in Israel Tuesday..this is the excuse for this latest incursion. love and peace will be the norm one day. I know nothing is permanant. love dotl- also picking myself up and starting again Christine!!! 19155 From: James Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: defending oneself --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Dharam, Herman, and All, > > An interesting question Dharam - I wonder if you wouldn't mind > drawing out a little more just how Herman's wanting to prevent the > unleashing of the Anglo-American war machine onto the civlian > population of Iraq is 'being content with less for the 'other > children' in this case presumably Iraqi'. I think Hermans' point > was that he was hoping that the Australian Prime Minister would > realise that the lives of Iraqi children (and for that matter Iraqi > women and Iraqi men) are just as precious as the lives of British, > American or Australian children. They should not be used as pawns in > the games that the business, media, government conglomeration plays > on the international stage. Large numbers of Iraqi children will > begin to die if bombing of their country commences, or if the 'over a > hundred thousand heavily armed American, British, and Australian > troops' cross its borders and invade the independent nation of Iraq. Dear Christine, I believe that the role of the Buddhist at times like these is to view events with dispassion and equanimity. As war is eminent, it is not for the Buddhist to take sides or to hope that there is or is not a war. And please understand that dispassion doesn't equate to apathy… quite the opposite. Dispassion is a choice that springs from wisdom. As the flames of conflict start to grow, the Buddhist knows that trying to the blow the flames one way or another, or even trying to blow them out, will only make them grow. Passionate response only fuels more passion. Dispassion is like a cooling mist that puts out the flames because it is of the opposite nature. And like with children playing war games with sticks, rocks, and bottles, it is not the place for the adult to take sides and hope that one side wins over another, or to vainly wish that children didn't play such games; it is the place for adults to simply wish blessings that the children grow up some day. Metta, James 19156 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:27pm Subject: Re: defending oneself Dharam, It would be an interesting spin on things to suggest that the impending attack on Iraq is a defensive move. It is my understanding that USA, Britain Australia et al are launching an unprovoked attack on Iraq. I wrote what I did on the assumption that John Howard would defend his children as most parents would, but he appears to have no qualms about the innocent lives his quest will claim. Your position re politics is also an interesting spin on things. All human interaction is political. Politics is the division of power in a social situation. There are those you revere, those you revile, those you like, those you dislike. In any real, or imagined (like the Internet) social situation your mind is constantly creating a hierarchy and where you fit into it. I canot even say that it would be noble to divorce politics from understanding the dhamma. It is impossible. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342 " wrote: > Hi Herman, > > In a follow-up to your prior message you write: "May John Howard see > no difference between the children of Baghdad and his own" > > Is it not curious that you ask of John Howard what you yourself > cannot do? You are quite willing to fight to defend yourself and > those around you, yet are content with less for the 'other children', > in this case presumably Iraqi. > > I ask this not from a political viewpoint, but rather wondering about > the practical application of your understanding of the dhamma. > > metta, > dharam 19157 From: dotl Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: defending oneself Thankyyou James..a timely reminder. Sometimes the desire for justice and peace overcomes my dispassion for politics. still starting over.. love dotl 19158 From: Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:39pm Subject: Way 42, Comm, Deportment "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Modes of Deportment, p.54 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Section on the Modes of Deportment The Buddha, after dealing in the aforesaid manner with body-contemplation in the form of respiration-meditation, in detail, said: "And further," in order to deal exhaustively with body-contemplation, here, according to the meditation on the modes of deportment [iriyapatha]. Gacchanto va gacchamiti pajanati = "When he is going (a bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" In this matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving. But this instruction on the modes of deportment was not given concerning similar awareness, because awareness of that sort belonging to animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness. [Tika] "Going". The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down, too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the particular sense of knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken. [T] From the sort of mere awareness denoted by reference to canines and the like, proceeds the idea of a soul, the perverted perception, with the belief that there is a doer and an experiencer. One who does not uproot or remove that wrong perception owing to non-opposition to that perception and to absence of contemplative practice cannot be called one who develops anything like a subject of meditation. But the knowledge of this meditator sheds the belief in a living being, knocks out the idea of a soul, and is both a subject of meditation and the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness. Indeed, who goes, whose going is it, on what account is this going? These words refer to the knowledge of the (act of) going (the mode of deportment) of the meditating bhikkhu. 19159 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:59pm Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi James, Christine, Dotl, and all, James, I do agree with you , dispassion is very important. But dispassion does not equate to inaction. I am reminded of something Sarah once wrote re a monk who was lying in a pool of dysentery, and the Buddha's admonishing the other monks to assist the chap. It is possible to act with equanimity. To sit on your hands and think "truly , all beings reap their own kamma" is merely adding further kamma to your own harvest. To radiate metta to all livings things, and not share a piece of bread with one who is hungry is hypocrisy to the max. To radiate metta to all living things and not share your strength with the weak redefines metta into a filthy little daydream. But when you share your strength with the weak, do it dispassionately. Thanks too, Christine, you read what I wrote how I meant it :-) All the best PS Your rejection of the monastic life how you found it, James, truly did inspire me. Thank you! > > Dear Christine, > > I believe that the role of the Buddhist at times like these is to > view events with dispassion and equanimity. As war is eminent, it is > not for the Buddhist to take sides or to hope that there is or is not > a war. And please understand that dispassion doesn't equate to > apathy… quite the opposite. Dispassion is a choice that springs from > wisdom. As the flames of conflict start to grow, the Buddhist knows > that trying to the blow the flames one way or another, or even trying > to blow them out, will only make them grow. Passionate response only > fuels more passion. Dispassion is like a cooling mist that puts out > the flames because it is of the opposite nature. > > And like with children playing war games with sticks, rocks, and > bottles, it is not the place for the adult to take sides and hope > that one side wins over another, or to vainly wish that children > didn't play such games; it is the place for adults to simply wish > blessings that the children grow up some day. > > Metta, James 19160 From: dotl Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: defending oneself Thankyou Egberdina..I am still trying to find the fine line that seems to be my path..I cant forsake the world and all its ills and beauty..I have to be able to do something practical to help wherever and however I can.. I am going to read Ken Jone's " Buddhism and Social Action" again. Wheel Publication No. 285/286 (1981) love dotl 19161 From: Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 5:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing Way 41: In this section on breathing, the mindfulness which examines the respirations is the Truth of Suffering. The pre-craving which brings about that mindfulness is the Truth of Origination. The non-occurrence of both is the Truth of Cessation. The Real Path which understands suffering, abandons origination, and takes cessation as object, is the Truth of the Way. Thus having endeavored by way of the Four Truths, a person arrives at peace. This is the portal to emancipation of the bhikkhu devoted to meditation on breathing. Hi all, My take on this passage is that even mindfulness is suffering so the desire to act in any sort of correct way is ultimately abandoned choicelessly, without volition, resulting in the recognition of the non-occurrence of both action and volition as a sort of inescapable, ultimately good, truth. If anyone has an alternate reading, I would be interested. Larry 19162 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 5:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Letter to Kom Hi Janice, Thanks for writing again. The Buddha died approximately at 543 BC. The Buddhists would say that the Buddha has passed away completely on this date, as he is no longer reborn unlike us when we die. In Thailand, instead of using Christ's year as the year designation, they use the Buddha's year. So, this year would be 2546 (Buddha's year): that's 2003 + 543 = 2546. The Buddhists also have prayers that help reminding us the good qualities of the Buddha. When you see a Buddhist pray, he/she may be recollecting the different good qualities of the Buddha: his wisdom about all realities, his compassion toward other beings for their sufferings, and his purity of actions, speeches, and mind. This is like when you remind yourself or recollect about your parent's benefaction (they wish well for you, they treat you nicely) toward you. The Buddhists recollect the good qualities of the Buddha when they pray. Yes, we talked briefly about Metta (kindness), Karuna (compassion), mudita (sympathetic joy), and upekkha (equanimity). These four are all qualities of the (good) mind. People don't usually sign their letter with the other three. This is because you can have Metta towards anybody at any time. The other three have different conditions for them to arise. You can only have compassion toward people who are suffering. When you see your family or friends in pain (either physical or mental) and you help them however you can, this is compassion: compassion is directed towards suffering beings. When you see your friends or family receiving good results (like when they are praised, or when they have other kinds of gains [like new toys], and you feel joyful toward their good fortune, this is sympathetic joy: sympathetic joy is directed towards others' good fortunes. When you see other people in pain, and you truly cannot help, but you don't feel mental pain because you know that each person must receive the results of their own kamma, this is equanimity (with wisdom). This is probably the most refined feeling of all 4, and is the most difficult to have. Many Buddhists strive to develop these mental states (not just to sign their letters with the words!). Although having these feelings all the time is not the goal of Buddhism, people develop them because they are beneficial mental states, and they bring a more refined happiness into this life. You can see this for yourself. How do you feel when you treat other people nicely? Like, treating your guests well when they visit you. How do you feel when you help other people when they need it (whether or not they ask)? How do you feel when are joyful toward other people's good fortune? You can then compare these mental feelings towards other kinds of happiness (like when you are praised, have new toys, etc.), are happiness / feelings that come because of kindness, compassion, and sympathetic joy more refined and peaceful than other kinds of happiness? The Buddha always teaches us to prove his teachings to ourselves. I enjoyed your creative ending to your letter. I hope you write again. Metta, kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > > Approximately, in what year did the Buddha > die in ? Do Buddhists have prayer books or prayers? At > the end of the letter, you gave me some new > vocabulary. Can you use them like 'metta'? Are they > goods or symbols in the religion? > Well that is all! > Keep in touch! > Metta, > Janice > 19163 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 5:49pm Subject: Re: defending oneself Hello James, Herman, Dot, Dharam and All, I don't think that understanding the conditions that lead to violence, and opposing all violence, has anything to do with taking sides. Metta and Karuna are great, Equanimity is also admirable. However, I believe followers of the Dhamma should actively work for peace when the opportunity arises. I agree with Herman that equanimity/dispassion does not mean inaction. All human lives are rare and precious opportunities to find the Dhamma - too rare and precious to be wasted because of circumstances and the (possibly changeable) actions of others. Shall we look for some scriptural references on how the Blessed One would expect his disciples to conduct themselves with regard to violence aimed at themselves or others? Whether he ever saw the use of violence as acceptable? And perhaps references where he indicates the consequences to those who engage in violence even if mandated by a national government or body of allegedly 'united' nations? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > Hi Dharam, Herman, and All, > > > > An interesting question Dharam - I wonder if you wouldn't mind > > drawing out a little more just how Herman's wanting to prevent > the > > unleashing of the Anglo-American war machine onto the civlian > > population of Iraq is 'being content with less for the 'other > > children' in this case presumably Iraqi'. I think Hermans' point > > was that he was hoping that the Australian Prime Minister would > > realise that the lives of Iraqi children (and for that matter Iraqi > > women and Iraqi men) are just as precious as the lives of British, > > American or Australian children. They should not be used as pawns > in > > the games that the business, media, government conglomeration > plays > > on the international stage. Large numbers of Iraqi children will > > begin to die if bombing of their country commences, or if the 'over > a > > hundred thousand heavily armed American, British, and Australian > > troops' cross its borders and invade the independent nation of > Iraq. > > Dear Christine, > > I believe that the role of the Buddhist at times like these is to > view events with dispassion and equanimity. As war is eminent, it is > not for the Buddhist to take sides or to hope that there is or is not > a war. And please understand that dispassion doesn't equate to > apathy… quite the opposite. Dispassion is a choice that springs from > wisdom. As the flames of conflict start to grow, the Buddhist knows > that trying to the blow the flames one way or another, or even trying > to blow them out, will only make them grow. Passionate response only > fuels more passion. Dispassion is like a cooling mist that puts out > the flames because it is of the opposite nature. > > And like with children playing war games with sticks, rocks, and > bottles, it is not the place for the adult to take sides and hope > that one side wins over another, or to vainly wish that children > didn't play such games; it is the place for adults to simply wish > blessings that the children grow up some day. > > Metta, James 19164 From: James Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:09pm Subject: Re: defending oneself --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello James, Herman, Dot, Dharam and All, > > I don't think that understanding the conditions that lead to > violence, and opposing all violence, has anything to do with taking > sides. Metta and Karuna are great, Equanimity is also admirable. > However, I believe followers of the Dhamma should actively work for > peace when the opportunity arises. Dear Christine, Of course action should be taken to lead toward peace. What action that is cannot be enumerated or classified in this type of forum; it is up to each individual to decide as the appropriate time. However, the correct answers won't arise until dispassion is present and there is no attempt to 'fix' things. If you are unfamiliar with the Tao Te Ching, you will not understand where I am coming from. Take care. Metta, James 19165 From: bodhi342 Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:23pm Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Christine, Herman and all, CF: "An interesting question Dharam - I wonder if you wouldn't mind drawing out a little more just how Herman's wanting to prevent the unleashing of the Anglo-American war machine onto the civlian population of Iraq is 'being content with less for the 'other children' in this case presumably Iraqi'." D: What I was trying to understand from Herman was the apparent contrast in his reactions to a) an attack to those near and dear, as opposed to b) those further away Iraqis; For a) he wrote "I would not hesitate to defend myself or those I am with. To allow anyone to deliberately hurt me (or my friends / family) would be a double failing - they have hurt me, and they have hurt themselves." For b) he wrote "And in the matter of the impending Bush / Blair / Howard sponsored blooddbath ....., the best I feel I can do is to write letters to politicians, editors, anyone with a brain and an ear." Therefore a different reaction, yet he expects "May John Howard see no difference between the children of Baghdad and his own", when he would react differently towards threats to his own children vs others. Hence, my curiosity about the practical issue of choice of action according to the principles of the dhamma. So, for example, is the remoteness of the victim (spatial or emotional) a valid reason to act differently? If everything is non-self, then why differentiate and physically defend some 'selves' as opposed to others? If every condition is impermanent, and present only for a fraction of time, why be concerned about something 'about' to happen? Why concentrate on a particular potential manifestation of dukkha, and not those occuring at the present moment, everywhere around us? James has addressed my implicit questions about kamma and dispassion already! This was not meant to explore the political side of the issue, which is no doubt present, but more the practical issue of individual reaction when the attack is expected 'later' and further away (allowing time for reflection), instead of here and now. Neither is it a criticism of any, or no, specific action or moral stance. Herman, I hope you now see that I made no attempt to spin any of the things you suggested. Politics is collective and has ends other than compassion and understanding. Its means include deception, power, intimidation, display and murder. Therefore, I am able to quite easily separate politics from individual moral understanding and action. Unfortunately, so do the movers and shakers who wield enormous power - they may personally be 'good' Christians/Muslims piously believing in righteous action, but are able to twist and turn things to suit a less loftier goal. In other words, self-delusion and ultimately an increase in dukkha. metta, dharam 19166 From: bodhi342 Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 8:17pm Subject: Re: defending oneself Hello James and all, Thank you for introducing dispassion as the Buddhist option to deal with the issue of war. Also for differentiating dispassion from apathy. There is a depth of wisdom in this approach to conflict. Implicit is observing, understanding yet not necessarily intervening. I have to suggest however, that to "simply wish blessings that the fighting children grow up some day" falls short as an analogy to adults playing war. Children have the potential to grow-up. Their war games seldom maim, let alone kill, and therefore we can reasonably be patient. Maturing usually occurs, and therefore we can believe in the eventual outcome. However, war has been occurring despite the probable hopeful wishes of humans for eons, with no sign of let up. Can we just take comfort in such a dream? Is this not mistakenly believing eternal peace could be implemented in the world because it exists in our hopes? Wishful thinking does not seem to be an aspect of Buddhism, where the emphasis is on understanding reality in its full measure. Is my understanding accurate? I was intrigued with "Of course action should be taken to lead toward peace. What action that is cannot be enumerated or classified in this type of forum; it is up to each individual to decide as the appropriate time. However, the correct answers won't arise until dispassion is present and there is no attempt to 'fix' things. If you are unfamiliar with the Tao Te Ching, you will not understand where I am coming from." If there is dispassion alone, why choose peace over war, or vice- versa? Surely it is attachment and passion that move us to protect, defend etc., however much we delude ourselves that it is done dispassionately. In Buddhism, are such choices considered noble or misguided? May I ask why suitable action cannot be enumerated or classified in this type of forum? Mysterious - when so much is apparently at stake, and there is time to reflect, decide and prepare, yet we would be denied the very secrets that could potentially save untold number of lives??!! Confusing. metta, dharam 19167 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 8:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Same Day, Different Day Dear Robert. The winds have calm down so we are safe for the moment. Metta. Venerable Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: rjkjp1 [mailto:rjkjp1@y...] Enviado el: Lunes, Enero 27, 2003 08:48 a.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: Re: [dsg] Same Day, Different Day --- Dear venerable Yanatharo, I hope the fire missed your temple? I was looking out for news on it last night. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ven.yanatharo.bikkhu" wrote: > Dear Christine, It is not a nice day here in Canberra. As you know more that > six hundred houses were lost totally to the fire last Saturday. Today I we come." > > Christine 19168 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:05pm Subject: Re: defending oneself Hello James, I think most of us have a passing knowledge of the writings of Lao Tzu/ Lao Tan/ Li Erh and the practice of wu-wei. But you are correct in that this is a Theravada Buddhist forum, the teachings discussed here are those of the Buddha. I would have enjoyed your contributions on the Dhamma, James - if you feel like joining in at any time, please do. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > Hello James, Herman, Dot, Dharam and All, > > > > I don't think that understanding the conditions that lead to > > violence, and opposing all violence, has anything to do with taking > > sides. Metta and Karuna are great, Equanimity is also admirable. > > However, I believe followers of the Dhamma should actively work > for > > peace when the opportunity arises. > > Dear Christine, > > Of course action should be taken to lead toward peace. What action > that is cannot be enumerated or classified in this type of forum; it > is up to each individual to decide as the appropriate time. However, > the correct answers won't arise until dispassion is present and there > is no attempt to 'fix' things. If you are unfamiliar with the Tao Te > Ching, you will not understand where I am coming from. Take care. > > Metta, James 19169 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Dharam, Perhaps it is 'what is possible' that is the key. If those one is with are attacked, then the attack is happening right now, in the present moment, within arms reach. It is possible to act. The type of instant action chosen (to run, to fight)is beyond control and the result of one's accumulations. John Howard, as Prime Minister of Australia, has power and time to plan and make decisions and commit troops. Whatever his intended outcome, he is building conditions that will result in bloodshed. The troops may do great harm to the Iraqi population and may be harmed themselves physically and with respect to the kamma they commit. Herman and I, as Australians, are quite powerless to take action at an international level. I don't recall the electors giving the P.M. and his Party the mandate to be an aggressor in a war, and our possibilities for action are limited. As Herman says, 'the best I feel I can do is to write letters to politicians, editors, anyone with a brain and an ear." The Intention to protect and bring peace is there. The remoteness of the victim is not a consideration - the choice to attempt to protect, to ensure their peace and safety, is no different than with our own children - only the possibilities for action and therefore, the means open to us are different. There is not a 'one size fits all' response covering all circumstances. My hope, as expressed by Herman when he said "May John Howard see no difference between the children of Baghdad and his own", is that the leaders of the nations involving themselves in this conflict will feel no 'spatial' or 'emotional' remoteness from people of Iraq. You say: "If everything is non-self, then why differentiate and physically defend some 'selves' as opposed to others?" Who is differentiating? We each deal with what comes to our notice in the best way we can - for myself, this involves how I behave towards beings I meet in daily life, and concerns matters that as a citizen of Australia are my responsibility to comment or act upon. I try to live as closely as possible to the way that is required by the Teachings. What do you do Dharam - what Spiritual Teaching do you try to live by? You say: "If every condition is impermanent, and present only for a fraction of time, why be concerned about something 'about' to happen?" A 'condition' is something on which something else, the so- called 'conditioned thing', is dependent, and without which the latter cannot be. If I don't want the young men of Australia, America and Britain and the people of Iraq to be injured and killed (conditioned thing) than I ought to try with whatever means are at my disposal to change the 'condition' (attitudes and decisions of the Australian Government) that will possibly bring it about. [acknowledging that there are multiple conditions for any conditioned thing.] You say:"Why concentrate on a particular potential manifestation of dukkha, and not those occuring at the present moment, everywhere around us?" There is no concentration on a particular thing. I deal with whatever I can in my daily life, when it arises, when it is possible to be dealt with. The Buddha taught non-violence and peace, he didn't teach non- action. He even went to the field of battle itself and intervened personally, and prevented war, as in the case of the dispute between the Sakyas and the Koliyas, who were prepared to fight over the question of the waters of the Rohini. And his words once prevented King Ajtasattu from attacking the kingdom of the Vajjis. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342 " 19170 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:29pm Subject: Re: Jan's letter Dear Jan, I am Kimmy and I have read through your letter about the book, "Twenty Jataka Tales". In the last two weeks, I was reading that book also which was borrowed from Mrs Abbott, and so I would like to answer your question but I am not sure is my answer right or not. When the fairy first appear in the story, the book said that Sakka knew that "the four friends in the wood were not eating, and that any food that they might find wwas to be given to any poor creature they might meet". Then because of the hare's three friends found that food which might be given to the poor creature and so the fairy didn't take the food that the three friends offered to her. In my opinion, I like the story "The monkey-Bridge" the most, it is because the story give me a very good advice and teach me how to treat my friends when I am the group leader. The story is about there is a grant-monkey who leave in the Himalaya mountain where there are many great fruit, then he ordered the rest of the monkey not to let any fruit fall into the river in order to let the human know all about the fruit. Unfornuately, the human found that and the King ordered them to go to the mountain. The Chief monkey wanted to help the others escaped, so he used his body to be a brigde and so he taught the King a great lesson. He taught him that rule the people with Love instead of power. Hope my answer is correct and can help for your question. Kimmy 19171 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:31pm Subject: rusty/buddha Dear Christine, My name is Hilary, I am 11.I have read some letters about your lucky dog Rusty.I love dogs and have one of my own call Heidi (even as I am writing this to you she is under my legs)she will be turning two this July.There was one time when Heidi was ill and the whole family was worried sick about her. Do you think the Buddha can bless the family and the dog to safe and in good health? I'd love to hear more about Rusty Hope your dog is getting well! From Hilary 19172 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:36pm Subject: About me Dear Robert, It's me again I won't tell you my name. It starts with a C and ends with a S. I am someone who has sent you a lot of letters. You know my name. I am someone that has no heart. I am 9. I just was 8 when you last heard from me. Who am I? Please tell me more about kamma. Is there kamma in every country. Please answer back. From "-----" 19173 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 9:45pm Subject: I read a letter number 17226 Hi, Ajahn Paul, Sorry I didn't reply. I read your letter (17226) about your life being a vegetarian. ~_~ I was surprised when you memorized all the dates about the when many people died in China and when you started to be a vegetarian... how can you remember all that? Because I can't remember the exact date like you (You must be really smart +_+)... T^T;;; You had some spelling problems.... (not trying to make you angry) so I couldn't understand some sentences. I have a question... why did you have to stop watching movies, tv, and no sports when you became a vegetarian?? I thought vegetarians were allowed to do those things. And i didnt understand the 5th paragraph... which started like "during that period, I found out that there are two kinds of kamma, one is individual............. and so on" Could you or someone else explain it to me? Thank you for trying your best to write a letter to me~ hahahaha;;; hope to see you write again~ Thanks Bye Ki Yong 19174 From: James Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:00pm Subject: Re: defending oneself --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello James, > > I think most of us have a passing knowledge of the writings of Lao > Tzu/ Lao Tan/ Li Erh and the practice of wu-wei. > But you are correct in that this is a Theravada Buddhist forum, the > teachings discussed here are those of the Buddha. > I would have enjoyed your contributions on the Dhamma, James - if you > feel like joining in at any time, please do. > > metta, > Christine Hi Christine, The writings of the Tao Te Ching are the dharma. The Lord Buddha wasn't the only one who taught dharma. I will step out of this fray until everyone settles down and thinks dispassionately. Things are not so black-and-white with this issue. I spent several hours today reading a lot of articles, and I have a feeling that things are going to get much worse before they get better. That is karma. Sometimes children won't stop being rough until they get hurt. Let us, as Buddhists, not be swept up into the frenzy. Let us serve as examples for wise action or inaction. Now, the time is for concentrated effort to remember those teachings from those who are selfless: "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred. He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal. There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this settle their quarrels. -The Dhammapada If you are courageous in daring you will die. If you are courageous in not-daring you will live. Among these two, one is beneficial and the other is harmful. -The Tao Te Ching Metta, James 19175 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:01pm Subject: Re: About me --- Dear C.B. I was a bit naughty and lazy in not replying to your last letter. Sometimes us adults get involved in different matters but it doesn't mean we forget. thanks for the reminder though. I didn't get much for Xmas but Alex got a watergun, clothes some computer games (from a friend in thailand)... No Gamecube yet though. What did you get for Xmas? I didn't send Alex to the Boarding school because I decided it was too expensive. But I bought him a new bike (BMX) this week as consolation the buddha taught kamma in different ways. I think examples are good though. Alex was in thailand with me and we went down for a swim. He was excited and happy and ran straight into the glass door that opens to the pool (very hard to see it). He was bleeding and started crying. I said that it is nice to know that when we get a painful feeling through the body it is the result of old past kamma and so we can be happy to know that - and also that that particular kamma has used its result(or some of it). He understood and started laughing. Now kamma is not the only cause for that to happen to Alex. the Buddha explained that always there are many things that need to come together for any result. So also the fact that Alex was a little careless etc. helped that kamma to bring its result. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear Robert, > > It's me again I won't tell you my name. It starts > with a C and ends with a S. I am someone who has sent > you a lot of letters. You know my name. I am someone > that has no heart. I am 9. I just was 8 when you last > heard from me. Who am I? Please tell me more about > kamma. Is there kamma in every country. > > Please answer back. > > From > > "-----" 19176 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing Hi Larry, Here's an alternative view point. > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 5:40 PM > > Way 41: In this section on breathing, the > mindfulness which examines the > respirations is the Truth of Suffering. The > pre-craving which brings > about that mindfulness is the Truth of > Origination. The non-occurrence > of both is the Truth of Cessation. The Real Path > which understands > suffering, abandons origination, and takes > cessation as object, is the > Truth of the Way. Thus having endeavored by way > of the Four Truths, a > person arrives at peace. This is the portal to > emancipation of the > bhikkhu devoted to meditation on breathing. > 1) Mindfulness is the truth of suffering because it too is anicca, dukkha, and anatta. 2) The pre-craving that brings about the mindfulness. This is very interesting. For samatha development, this could be a craving for peacefulness (of concentration / jhana) or for higher existence, and for insight, the craving for the insights / feelings associated with insights / results of insights (attainment). 3) Thru the abandoning of both, by turning away from both truth, nibbana becomes the object of insight. Nibbana is the cessation, and insight is the (supramundane) path. Suffering is to be known, craving to be abandoned, and (mundane) path is to be developed. Without these three, then the 3rd noble truth cannot be realized. We can see that craving (for anything, including insight itself) is not the way and should be abandoned. kom ps: The abhidhamma tells us that there are 4 kinds of volition: kusala, akusala, kiriya, and vipaka. The volition that is kusala and akusala are the 2nd chain (abhi-sankara) in dependent origination. There is no citta without volitions, and all volition co-arising with cittas in the javana process are part of the chain. In the mundane insight, there is always volition that is kusala. Volition is a conditioned reality. Whether or not we actively choose to do something or not, there is already volition when we do anything. Something as automatic as blinking your eyes have volition as its condition. Do we actively control this volition (or any other volition)? Do we actively choose to blink our eyes? 19177 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:28pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jan's letter Dear Kimmy, > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > In my opinion, I like the story "The monkey-Bridge" > the most, it is because the story give me a very good > advice and teach me how to treat my friends when I am > the group leader. The story is about there is a > grant-monkey who leave in the Himalaya mountain where > there are many great fruit, then he ordered the rest > of the monkey not to let any fruit fall into the river > in order to let the human know all about the fruit. > Unfornuately, the human found that and the King > ordered them to go to the mountain. The Chief monkey > wanted to help the others escaped, so he used his body > to be a brigde and so he taught the King a great > lesson. He taught him that rule the people with Love > instead of power. > I very much like this story you told about the great monkey and the king. I appreciate your conclusion (about ruling with love) even better. I think you are doing a great job telling the story and answering the question. There are other things that we can learn from this story as well: 1) Do you see that having something requires the protection of the thing we have? The more we have, the more efforts we need to put into protecting it. We need to eat well to protect our body, eat carefully to not stain our clothes, and be careful with the plate and glass so that we don't break them. The Buddha teaches that this is one of the disadvantages of having. 2) Even when put all our hearts into protecting what we have, sometimes we fail. This is another disadvantage of having. 3) We shouldn't expect other (and ourselves) to be exactly like what we want them (and us) to be. Things often don't go the way that we want to, even if we are a great monkey. 4) We can learn a lesson from anybody, and we shouldn't prejudice people because of how they seem to be (human & animal, people younger or older, boy or girl, etc.). The useful truths (that we learn) is the most important aspect of learning. Great job, Kimmy! kom 19178 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 11:49pm Subject: Re: About me --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > --- > Dear C.b. p.s.He was bleeding and started > crying. A little exaggeration there. Alex had a nasty lump and a hint of blood in the nose. RobertK 19179 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Frank, --- Frank Kuan wrote: > Thanks for the thoughts on seclusion Sarah, > We all have to choose our own path. The more I > practice, the more solitude I find to be necessary. In > the past, I would enjoy eating a meal in the company > of good friends. Now I find it incredibly distracting. > Totally interferes with mindfulness of eating. This > change in me happened over time, to my surprise > actually. Had someone tried to convince me of this > years ago, I would believe them, but still be a little > skeptical. :-) ..... I understand what you’re saying and thank you for sharing it. We do have a somewhat different perspective. Like you, I often prefer to be on my own and tend to avoid socialising when I’m not working (quite hard for sociable people like us;-)). I understand what you mean about ‘mindfulness of eating’ and conventionally agree with all your comments. Indeed we share much in common with regard to choice of lifestyle. However, I think that the great ‘power’ of sati and panna is that they really don’t depend at all on conventional/health/reasoned out ideas of time, place and suitability. Any attempts to ‘limit’ them or to view another occasion as more appropriate is to underestimate what is possible to be known at this very moment. It really will depend on conditions whether we’re eating the meal on our own or in company today. But ‘eating a meal’ is just a phrase representing numerous mental and physical phenomena. There can be a lot of lobha in company. There can be a lot of lobha in solitude too. Lobha is simply lobha whatever the object. Seeing, hearing and other sense door experiences occur regardless. It may seem there are less distractions on our own and more chance to pinpoint these realities, but we can see the lobha darting in again, wishing to have awareness and trying to focus. Like Herman said, this doesn’t mean we should take no action or not eat the right food under the right conditions, but we need to really be honest about the motives and to question whether this really is the way to have more sati. It’s so very easy for lobha to be disgusised at something nobler whatever the pretext. ..... > My theory is those who see the necessity of solitude > have a stronger sense of urgency and awareness of > dukkha and samvega than the average buddhist. For > example, by all accounts I live an extremely > privileged life, eat the finest foods, live in the > finest place, but even if this kind of lifestyle were > sustainable for this entire life, and lives to come, I > would still find it a tremendous burden and suffering. > The best of conditioned life has to offer still sucks. ..... We can say ‘life sucks’ and can reflect wisely about the unsatisfactoriness and dukkha of life. It is just thinking, however, at these times. The conditions for really understanding the imprmanence and unsatisfactoriness of life is by developing understanding of ultimate realities. There is no way around it. You read and reflect a lot, I know, on the suttas in SN under Salayatanavagga about the Six bases and so on. We read often here about the ‘unguarded’ senses, the unguarded objects, the unguarded kinds of consciousness which are the causes of suffering. Understanding these ayatanas (sense bases) or elements is the key rather than a particular lifestyle, as I understand, regardless of preferences or health considerations. Indeed I think we have to be careful about any ‘measures’ based on outer appearances such as physical solitude, don’t you? ..... > Driven by this kind of emotion, there is no > alternative to strenuous practice, and solitude > facilitates it, at least for good chunks of time, > varying for individual. > Think about how much of your life was spent going > to school, learning basic skills, working the rat race > to save some money, and then to encounter this > precious dhamma, realizing just how difficicult and > fortunate it is to encountger these teachings, with no > guarantee that you would encounter it again, does it > not strike a sense of urgency? ..... Perhaps I just have confidence that whenever there is any understanding of phenomena, at those moments there is a sense of urgency without any idea or need for what you would consider ‘strenuous practice’. I have felt differently in the past, as I indicated last time, but honestly speaking, I feel relief and joy when I reflect on how the burden of having to regulate a time, way, place and focus has been lifted for really a very long time now. I don’t wish to try to persuade you of anything -- we will all do as we think fit as you suggested -- but for myself, I don’t make any distinction in terms of ‘my practice’ whether I’m teaching kids, doing accounts and office chores which I dislike, doing my yoga practice or reading dhamma. Jon and I have both worked hard in the ‘rat race’ for a long time. Would more sati and wisdom have accumulated if we’d spent more time in solitude and so on? I never think about it because I’m sure that what is of prime importance is the understanding and eradication of wrong view, rather than a particular lifestyle. (that doesn’t mean we wouldn’t trade with you for a year of surf , yoga and relax in Hawaii mind you...;-)) As Erik wrote after moving to Koh Samui, it’s very apparent that the kilesa (defilements) follow us round and are no different in Paradise to the Rat Race as I see it. ..... > Yesterday, I was evaluating and lamenting the state > of my mindfulness, which should be focused on only 4 > themes for 24/7. Not only is it not within the 4 > themes for half of the time, but even when it is, it > has a tendency to spend too much on "mindfulness of > dhamma". I've been actively trying to shift more of > the percentage to mindfulness of body and feeling, and > less on dhamma. ..... I know you probably won’t care for my comments here, Frank, and you’re most welcome to ignore them. In brief, though we talk a lot about anatta and appreciate the suttas about ‘bare phenomena rolling on’, the tendency to cling to a self that can ‘shift’, ‘focus’ and so on is very deep-rooted and misguided as I see it. The path of understanding has to be the path of detachment from what is conditioned to arise without expectation or minding. Such concern is bound to bring frustration and lament when indeed it’s impossible to control what arises or is experienced at the next moment. ..... >Not that there isn't a time and place > for mindfulness of dhamma, but the percentage > of effort just seems out of whack. I won't go into the > details of my reasoning, I'll just say it has to do > with my working theory of what types of mindfulness > are conducive to faith, views, reasoned thinking, and > direct realization. ..... I wonder what you mean by ‘mindfulness of dhamma’? I’m not sure if we’re speaking the same language here. I’d be glad if you’d care to share more on these last comments. perhaps they relate to a recent interesting (but difficult) discussion in the Way corner. As I understand, the ‘practice’ should make life easier, not more complicated. It should fit into and relate to our daily life as it is. If it entails extra rules, restrictions and limitations, perhaps the path needs to be re-examined? I’d be glad to keep this dialogue open, but I know that my comments may seem off-track to you, in which case, I’ll still be glad to hear;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 19180 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Frank & All, P.s. I had meant to add a link to a recent post of Rob K's on this theme too. Below is an extract. When I quoted the Thera sutta recently I hadn't remembered that Rob also quoted from it here as well: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18496 Rob K: "There seems to be so many different lifestyles and circumstances that the followers of the Buddha lived. And I think if we try to estimate what is right for us while still within the clutch of concepts it may be misleading. If there is insight into khandhas here and now, without concern for whether we are in our imagined right situation or right job, then wisdom is developing regardless and it is wisdom – a conditioned phenomena – that will come to know what is best." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn21-010.html the Blessed One said to him, "Is it true, Elder, that you live alone and extol the virtues of living alone?" ... "Yes, lord." ... "But how do you live alone and extol the virtues of living alone?" ... "Lord, alone I enter the village for alms, alone I return, alone I sit withdrawn, alone I do walking meditation. That is how I live alone and extol the virtues of living alone." ... "There is that way of living alone, Elder. I don't say that there isn't. Still, listen well to you how your living alone is perfected in its details, and pay close attention. I will speak." ... "As you say, lord," Ven. Elder responded. ... The Blessed One said: "And how is living alone perfected in its details? There is the case where whatever is past is abandoned, whatever is future is relinquished, and any passion & desire with regard to states of being attained in the present is well subdued. That is how living alone is perfected in its details." Sarah ===== 19181 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 3:10am Subject: Momentous occasion Hi all, I would like to share a momentous occasion with you. It may not end up being a momentous occasion for you, and that's ok. It is momentous for me , because it is probably a first. I am going to post a link to a sutta!!!! Here it is http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn018.html It is called the Madhupindika Sutta. I read it as saying that the cause of all conflict is one's own mind. And that all conflict ceases with the dissolution of that mind. Pretty heavy stuff. But when I read the vinaya the major source of problems seems to be sexuality. Which I extrapolate to mean, if one doesn't reproduce, problem solved. So is the problem the mind or the body? (It is not deliberately a leading question, answer how you will) All the best Herman 19182 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:10am Subject: Re: Abandoning Victor --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Jon, ... > I am not sure what you mean by "directed" abandoning and would be > interested to know what you mean by that. If I remember correctly, this comment was made in the context of a statement to the effect that: <> To my reading of the teachings, abandoning is the outcome of the development of insight. As insight is developed, wrong view is overcome or abandoned. Some people might think that a wrong view can be successfully abandoned by kind of 'training' oneself to think in the 'right' way. To me, such an idea is mistaken. Any form of 'practice' that is not the development of insight can do nothing to address the root cause of our wrong view, namely, ignorance. Such ideas also seem to imply that we can choose what it is we would like to abandon, but this too cannot be the case if abandoning is a matter of developing insight. The expression "directed abandoning" was just my way of referring to these kinds of ideas. I probably should have spelt it out more fully. Thanks for the opportunity to explain. Jon 19183 From: Star Kid Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:21am Subject: Chinese New Year!~ Hi James, Thanks...hehe of course Im not related to J.Lo, I sure wish I was! Haha...Thats nice, sounds really interesting to me! Orange! I love oranges!!! =) Yes, Im sure its a reminder to eat healthy..hehe I am a horse and it does fit me too. Because I run really fast..I just had a basketball game this morning and my school won the other school 30-8. Our basketball teams is very aggresive. My Astrological sign is Virgo, Im not quite sure if it fits me or not. =P Buddhist idea is sure really complicated to understand but I still understand it. I have heard alot of reincarnation stories from my teacher at school these couple of weeks because we are learning about India. Sounds scary to me but Its very interesting. Do you have any stories of reincarnation or the Buddhist idea of rebirth? What else does a Buddhist do to celebrate Chinese New Year?? Well, Happy New Year to you too! Take care, thanks. OrAnGeS!!! I love eating oranges! I'll eat really healthy during Chinese New Year!~ [if i can!] Love, JoJo 19184 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentration Dear Larry, Simply No.A decisive role is the matter of Adhimokkha.Sorry for my reply late but I will try to keep the pace. Yours, Htoo Naing LBIDD@w... wrote:Hi Htoo Naing, Thanks for your comments. Does ekagatta cetasika play a decisive role in clinging (upadana)? What clings? Larry 19185 From: Star Kid Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:25am Subject: Adults and kids.... Dear James, Hello James! Happy EARLY chinese new year! (from Hong Kong) I was wondering if do you have any siblings? and are they as annoying as mine(heehee) well my THREE brothers are VERY annoying... I really enjoyed the tale called"The Great Monkey King" and how long did it take you to type the whole thing out? Well it must have taken you at least 15 mins. I read this REALLY good book called "The Little Prince". When you told me that some adults are just like kids, it just reminded me of this book. Well if you didn't read it (im sure you did) then I recommended. And also since you mentioned that some adults are as childish as kids, then do you know who is Pdiddy or Usher? I also wanted to ask you what got you into Buddhism??? Plz reply asap! Thx from Jan! 19186 From: Star Kid Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:29am Subject: About Christmas Dear James, How are you? I've got a toy from my teacher, a doll. That doll dosen't work too much for me. You are lucky that you got a wallet from your parents. I've got nothing from my parents because I don't celebrate Christmas. What is a Buddhist temple? I've never been in one.. Why do you like to go to the Buddhist temple? Good luck. Love, Janet 19187 From: Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Hi, Jon (and Victor) - In a message dated 1/27/03 8:10:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Victor > > --- "yu_zhonghao " > wrote: >Jon, > ... > >I am not sure what you mean by "directed" abandoning and would be > >interested to know what you mean by that. > > If I remember correctly, this comment was made in the context of a > statement to the effect that: > > < abandon the view "the aggregates are self.">> > > To my reading of the teachings, abandoning is the outcome of the > development of insight. As insight is developed, wrong view is > overcome or abandoned. > > Some people might think that a wrong view can be successfully > abandoned by kind of 'training' oneself to think in the 'right' way. > To me, such an idea is mistaken. Any form of 'practice' that is not > the development of insight can do nothing to address the root cause > of our wrong view, namely, ignorance. Such ideas also seem to imply > that we can choose what it is we would like to abandon, but this too > cannot be the case if abandoning is a matter of developing insight. > > The expression "directed abandoning" was just my way of referring to > these kinds of ideas. I probably should have spelt it out more > fully. Thanks for the opportunity to explain. > > Jon > > > =============================== I somewhat agree with what you say here, Jon. Ultimate abandoning arises only as the fruit of wisdom. However, penultimate abandoning can arise as a result of mindfulness accompanied by intention and energy. What I am referring to in this respect is what the Buddha called guarding the senses, by which one fosters kusala states and avoids akusala ones, as per the following translation by Michael Olds. (Note: He renders 'bhikkhu' by the literal 'beggar'): ************************************************** [ 4.2 ] [RD] Four Consummate Efforts[ 4.2 ] Here friends a beggar generates intention, sets his thinking on, rouses energy, and makes an effort to prevent the arising of bad, unskillful states not yet present in the here and now, generates intention, sets his thinking on, rouses energy, and makes an effort to let go of bad, unskillful states that are present in the here and now, generates intention, sets his thinking on, rouses energy and makes an effort to get skillful states not yet present in the here and now, generates intention, sets his thinking on, rouses energy and makes an effort to retain, establish, rid of confusion, complete, develop, increase, and add to skillful states that are present in the here and now ********************************************** With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19188 From: Frank Kuan Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Sarah, I appreciate your thoughts on aloneness. When I was going to school, there were students who could work 20 hours a week, juggle relationships and all kinds of committments, and still excel in their studies. My hat off to them and off to you if you find your lifestyle affords you as much progress in the dhamma as the more typical success stories in the suttas. As far as I'm concerned, the vast majority of people who have made major strides in their field, whether worldly or unworldly, benefit from large chunks of seclusion. seclusion doesn't guarantee success, and has it's difficulties as you pointed out. Just like dedicating two hours to doing homework doesn't guarantee the homework is going to get done or get done well. But all else being equal, I'd say the best opportunity to do the homework well is in seclusion than in the company of television, friends, kids, pets, and other distractions. And this is regardless of whether I'm a layperson, married, ordained, whatever. I'm switching dsg to non-email mode, so I may not respond or respond very late to followups. -fk 19189 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:17am Subject: Dhamma,Perceiving it & Realisation Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma is Dhamma.All the dhamma can be perceptible. All the dhamma means all the possible things perceptible through the watching windows of Six,including Pancadavara and Manodavara(mind- eye). The perceptible things are 1.Rupa-arammana(senses perceptible only through the eyes and visual sense organs) All sights,visions,shapes,forms,colours and light of a range of brightness. 2.Saddha-arammana(senses perceptible only through the ears and hearing organs) All sounds perceptible_tone,quality,volume,frequency. 3.Gandha-arammana(senses perceptible only through nose and organs of smell) All perceptible smell_from the least conspicuous to the strongest (pungent). 4.Rasa-arammana(senses perceptible only through taste buds,tongue and organs of taste) All perceptible taste_sweet,sour,salty,spicy and bitter. 5.Phutthabba-arammana(senses perceptible onlt through bodily touch) Pathavi,Tajo,Vayo(Apo cannot be sensed even though water can be sensed as Pathavi,Tajo and Vayo)(Apo is a sense for Manodavara). 6.Dhamma-arammana(senses perceptible only through mind) 1) 5 Pasadarupa (Pancadavara/Pancavatthu) 2) 89 states of mind (89 Citta) 3) 52 Cetasikas(52 mental factors work together with Citta) 4) Nibbana (Asankhatadhatu_not affected by Kamma,Citta,Utu or Ahara (Absolute peace). 5. Pannatta (Names of all things). 6) 16 Sukhumarupa(Rupa not readily perceptible through Pancadavara,so must pass through mind). 1.Apo(attraction,looseness or tightness of matters). 2.Itthisattabhavarupa(Absence of Y-Chromosome and presence of feminine characteristics). 3.Purisattabhavarupa(Y-Chromosome and musculine characteristics). 4.Hadayavatthu(The seat of Citta). 5.Jivitarupa(Active life of Rupa). 6.Ahararupa(Oja/Nutrition). 7.Paricchedarupa(Akasadhatu/space). 8.Kaayavinattirupa(Gesture/Body language/Body message). 9.Vacivinattirupa(Speech/Voice language/voice message). 10.Rupalahuta(Lightness,Easiness,readiness of matters). 11.Rupamuduta(Tenderness,gentleness,flexibility of matters). 12.Rupakammannata(Steadiness,stability,unity of matters). 13.Upacayarupa(Early/initial formation of all matters/Rupa at the outset). 14.Santatirupa(Developping state of rupa to full maturity). 15.Jarata(Wearing away of rupa/Things that are getting older). 16.Aniccatarupa(Disappearance of Rupa/Void of rupa). There are no other extra-dhammas apart from things cited above. May you all perceive Dhamma consciously all the time. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19190 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:44am Subject: Anicca and Dhamma Dear Dhamma Friends, ''Sabbe Sankharaa Aniccaa''.Anicca is the characteristic of all Dhammas.All the Dhammas are subjected to happening(Arising and wearing away) with the exception of Nibbana(Where there is no rupadhamma,namadhamma and no happening_Asankhatadhatu/Absolute peace) and Pannatta which is not a real existance and does not happen. '' Sabbe sankhara Aniccaa''.Only Anicca is Nicca-Dhamma.When all the things are not permanent,then the things are subjected to Dukkha (Suffering).As all the things are Anicca,they cannot be managed with chosen directions;so they will go on their own ways.So all the things are Anatta(Non-self). If one can always contemplate all the dhammas as Anicca or Dukkha or Anatta firmly in his mind,there will be no more attachment to them.If there is no more attachment,he will not commit new Kamma good or bad.If there is no more Kamma-Patha-Dhamma(Kamma generating potentials that may give rise to re-birth and other effects from doing bodily actions,oral actions and mental actions),there will be no more Patisandhi(Birth).If no Patisandhi,then no rebirth.The only things left will be Vipaka-namakkhandha and rupakkhandha.In the end,just before Cuticitta,Maranaasanna-javanacitta will contemplate and take the arammana of Anicca or Dukkha or Anatta and with the disappearence of Cuticitta,the whole Sansara-long journey will end up with disappearence of all namakkhandha.What left will be Just Utuja- rupa.No Citt no cittajarupa,no Kamma no Kammajarupa and no Ahara no Aharajarupa as the body is dead.Utujarupa can still happens as long as their nuclears lives and as long as the earth exists. All Dhammas are Anicca.Fix firmly in mind.''Anicca'' ''Anicca'' Anicca'' .Anicca is Dhamma.Dhamma is Anicca.Vipassana Panna sees all Arammana including Dhamma-arammana as Anicca.It is needed to see as Anicca at all time and at any moment.Dhamma is nowhere but just around you.Dhamma is Anicca.Anicca is Dhamma. May you all stay with Dhamma all the time. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19191 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:17am Subject: (1) Citta As A Leader Dear Dhamma Friends, The universe would have been full of only Utuja-kalapa(Congregations of matters subjected to weather),if there had not been any Cittas (ones that can perceive).But there do have been Cittas for unmeasurable,countless,infinitive time.In that case,The Buddha never support contemplating the beginning of lives which would add nothing to seekers in terms of liberation.If there had been no Satta(lives in any planes of existance)it would be no use to explore the Rupa (matters and elements) world. There are two types of Kalapas(Congregation of matters) that exist independent of Cittas.Both of them are Utuja-Kalapas.The first is Suddattha-Kalapa(purely 8 matters-congregation)comprising pathavi (earth property),tejo(fire property),vayo(wind property),apo(water property),vanna(sight),gandha(smell),rasa(taste) and oja(nutrition). Another type consists of these eight rupas along with Saddha(sounds) and that Kalapa is called Saddha-nava-Kalapa(9 including sound).As Cittas have long been there for innumerable Kappas(Millions of years),there have been a lot of rupas mixing up in the Universe,including Kammajarupas(matters caused by Kamma),Cittajarupas (caused by Citta),Aharajarupas(generated by nutrion) and Utujarupas (created by weather). These rupas again interact with Cittas and Cetasikas.How they interact and support each other can be studied in the Dhamma of the Great(So Great that The Buddha Himself Pujemi(worship) Dhamma_see the Image of The Buddha in Dhamma-Puja-Mudara),Paticcasamuppada(causes and effects and their relationships) and Pathana(Cause-effect relationships along with properties of causations) Dhamma. Among the Paramatthadhamma(Ultimate truth) of Citta,Cetasika and Rupa,Citta is one and the only one leader of all.It leads all other dhammas.Everything that has been happening at the present is the result of the actions of Cittas(in the past-in this life or in previous ones). To cease sufferings and extinguish all the fire(Kilesas and Sanyojanas),Citta needs to be trained diligently until the Highest Panna is attained.As it is a leader,it can train itself and its allied cetasikas as well.One can sense the existance of one's Citta.So why not possible to lead oneself to a better living and life.One should never be led by bad things and bad thought.Lead yourselves.Behave yourselves.Citta is a leader and Citta is the Leader. May you all lead your lives yourselves to a better living and lives. Htoo Naing 19192 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas and insight --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, The view from Abhidhamma and one from Science are quite different as science has no insight into Namadhamma.Scientists think mental processes all go through chemical reactions in the brain. Abhidhamma has a clearer view on perception like this. Requirements to have an appreciation of senses are 1.Sight 1)Cakkkhupasadha(Cakkhuvatthu-retina or visual receptors),2)Rupa- arammana(sights,visions,shapes,forms),3)Aaloka(light),all these three things are considered from both views.Abhidhamma has an extra requirement 4)Manasikara(Directing of mind to a particular arammana).This is quite needed.In front of us there are a lot of sights when we open our eyes in day light but we cannot see(perceive) all sight at the same time but just a particular objects or objects only when our mind directs to it or them. 2.Sound 1)Sotapasada 2)sound 3)air 4)Manasikara 3.Smell 1)Ghanapasada 2)smell 3)air 4)Manasikara 4.Taste 1)Jinvapasada 2)taste 3)saliva 4)Manasikara 5.Touch 1)Kaayapasada 2)Putthabba_pathvi,tejo,vayo 3)Thadda-Pathavi or nerves 4)Manasikara. For mental phenomena 6.Mental senses 1)Manodavara( 19 Bhavanghacitta just immediately before Manodavara- aavijjanacitta) 2) Dhamma-arammana(thought) 3)Manodavara- aavijjanacitta(investigating/examining/checking mind)4)Manasikara If the mind is not delibrately directed to a particular arammana,it cannot appreciate the senses even though there are senses there. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Htoo, > I like best to discuss with you on dsg, because others are also interested > to listen. > I think rupa is very practical, it is with us all the time. >when > our eyes are open it seems that it is light all the time. In reality there > is light only when seeing, and not at all the other moments. Seeing is > interrupted by many cittas arising in different processes. > I enjoy talking to you, > Nina. > op 24-01-2003 19:46 schreef Htoo Naing op htootintnaing@y...: > > How are you?Rupa is a wide subject.Focus on practical matters.Study to up > the practice.I think you have a clear view on Rupa.I look forward to hearing > from you. 19193 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:37am Subject: Re: Intimation through body and speech. no 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, >nina van gorkom wrote: > Intimation through body and speech. no 2 > We are inclined to take intimation as belonging to self, but bodily > intimation is only a kind of rúpa, originated by citta. >about citta > and rúpas which are conditioned by citta can remind us to be aware of > whatever reality appears, also while gesticulating. Then there is at such a > moment no opportunity for akusala citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Gesture is just Cittajarupa. To do Akusala or Kusala or Abyakata actions,there are 3 Windows(Kamma- Davaras) namely Kaaya(bodily actions),Vaci(oral actions) and Mano (mental actions). All action have sources.All are based on cittas. So,if citta is Akusala it will cause Akusala Kamma.If Kusala,Kusala Kamma.If Abyakata there will be no more Kamma.Kiriyacittas(Abyakata) are Javanacittas of Arahats and they won't give rise to any Kamma. If we wave people we know well with cheerful mind,the javanacittas happening at that time will be ''Somanassa sahagatan ditthigata- sampayottakanan asankharika cittas'' that is The Mind State that has cheerfulness(Piti),misbelieving(ditthi)(actual dhamma are thought as people,man,woman)along with Moha,Lobha,Ahirika,Anuttappa,Udicca and 13 other Cetasikas. The gestures depend on Cittas.I hope it will clerify your queries. May you use innocent gestures. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19194 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:04am Subject: intimation through body and speech, no. 4 intimation through body and speech, no. 4 Bodily intimation and speech intimation are rúpas conditioned by citta, but these two kinds of rúpa are not rúpas with their own distinct nature and characteristic. Rúpas can be classified as sabhåva rúpas, rúpas with their own distinct nature (sa meaning: with, bhåva meaning: nature) and asabhåva rúpas, rúpas without their own distinct nature. The eight inseparable rúpas are sabhåva rúpas, they each have their own distinct nature and characteristic. As we have seen, bodily intimation and speech intimation are a ³certain, unique change² in the great elements, they are a quality of rúpa, namely: changeability of rúpa. Thus, they are asabhåva rúpas. The eight inseparable rúpas on which the two kinds of intimation depend are produced by citta, according to the ³Atthasåliní² (II, Book II, Part I, Ch 3, 337). In the case of bodily intimation the element of wind and in the case of speech intimation the element of earth plays its specific role. Do we realize whether speech intimation is conditioned by kusala citta or by akusala citta? We may know in theory that we speak with akusala citta when our objective is not wholesomeness, such as generosity, kindness or the development of understanding of the Buddha¹s teachings, but do we realize this at the moments we speak? Even when akusala kamma through speech, such as lying or slandering, is not committed, we may still speak with akusala citta. We may find out that often our speech is motivated by akusala citta. We speak with cittas rooted in attachment when we want to gain something, when we want to be liked or admired by others. With this objective we may even tell ³tales² about others, ridicule or denigrate them. We are attached to speech and we often chatter just in order to keep the conversation going. We tend to feel lonely when there is silence. Usually we do not consider whether what we say is beneficial or not. We have to speak to others when we organize our work in the office or at home. Do we realize whether there are at such moments kusala cittas or akusala cittas? When we lie there is the committing of akusala kamma through speech. Speech intimation is produced by kusala citta when we, for example, with generosity and kindness try to help and encourage others in speaking to them. When we speak about the Buddha¹s teachings there may be kusala cittas, but at times there also tend to be akusala cittas, for example, when we are conceited about our knowledge, or when we are attached to the people we are speaking to. Many different types of citta arise and fall away very rapidly and we may not know when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta. There can be mindfulness while speaking, but we may believe that this is too difficult since we have to think of what we are going to say. Thinking is a reality and it can be object of mindfulness. There are sound and hearing and they can be object of mindfulness when they appear. We are usually absorbed in the subject we want to speak about and we attach great importance to our speech. We live most of the time in the world of ³conventional truth², and we are forgetful of ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas). In the ultimate sense there is no speaker, only empty phenomena, conditioned nåmas and rúpas. When we gesticulate and speak there are only nåma and rúpa. Hardness, pressure, sound or hearing may present themselves, they can be experienced one at a time. If there is mindfulness at such moments understanding of the reality that appears can be developed. 19195 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, contemplation and insight Hi Larry, see below. op 25-01-2003 21:56 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I think you are making a distinction between > realization and practice, and saying practice doesn't make a difference. > By "practice" I mean thinking in a discursive, contemplative way, as > suggested by the commentary. I agree this isn't realization, but I think > it makes a difference in accumulating right view, even if not on a deep > level. Nina: I quote something from what I am writing now about Thailand, maybe it helps: I agree that it is useful to reflect on the teachings, we need considering again and again what we heard. It is the level of pariyatti. It is a condition for direct awareness, for sati sampajanna, so that we come to understand that there is dhamma now. That means, a dhamma appearing through one of the six doorways. The Co speaks about insight time and again. Remember the verse in Way 33: Becauise of the English we can overlook the meaning: Pali has: vipassako. It is vipassana. He attains enlightenment (fruition). Then Way 41:< there is no person... >This is insight, not mere reflection or contemplation. Another example: The Buddha explains to Rahula about rupakkhandha, and the Co states that he said to him: apply vipassana panna. Certainly, there are conditions for reflection, but if there is no awareness of thinking we take it for self. Also thinking has to be known and realized as it is. A. Sujin stresses that the four noble truths are very subtle, difficult to see. Such as the second one: clinging. She points out time and again how very subtle clinging can be, difficult to notice. The first three stages of insight are called , panna of thinking. This does not mean that insight is thinking. It means, that thinking about realities still arises, not enough detachment yet. Thinking can be an object of insight. A. Sujin said: She also said: Yes, detachment in the development is stressed all the time by A. Sujin. Usually when we think of there is so much clinging involved. Nina. 19196 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentrationn Dear Herman, In some circumstances it is right to realise only when there is and there is not for some matters. Regarding Cetasikas,Apart from 7 Cetasikas(including Ekagatta) ,other 45 Cetasikas do not arise always and their appearing usually depends on Cittas. Ekagatta is always there but shifting here and there along with Citta. Let's see a man trying to have Jhana. Before he goes into Jhana,Ekagatta still wandering here and there even though it fixes at an arammana at any moment. When he is in Jhana,all Cittas are Jhanacittas before he release Jhanacittas.Jhana take mostly Pannatta-arammana.Pannatta does not happen,it is not a real existance,it has no lifespan.That is arammana.Cittas are jhanacittas.Even though they have lifespan of just a moment,all the cittas in Jhana are the same(in terms of Bhumi,Jati,Sankhara,Sampayotta and Arammana) and there is no interruption.So some may think it is permanent(Nicca-someone like Bhaka-Brahma). I hope it is clear now.Robert or U Maung Lwin or someone may add more. May you all have Samma-samadhi built up. Htoo Naing "Egberdina " wrote:Hi Htoo Naing, >I am a little confused the issue. >we can tell the difference between it >being there and not being there, same with sati etc etcAll the best >Herman 19197 From: Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing Hi Kom, Thanks for your reply. I forgot that volition is a universal cetasika, arising with every citta. I see that its function is to accumulate. Does that mean that every citta is accumulated and becomes part of the repository of accumulations that condition javana cittas? Larry 19198 From: Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentration Hi Htoo Naing, Thanks for your answer. I didn't know about adhimokkha so I looked it up. It is an ethically variable occasional: "Decision (adhimokkha): The word "adhimokkha" means literally the releasing of the mind onto the object. Hence it has been rendered decision or resolution. It has the characteristic of conviction, the function of not groping, and manifestation as decisiveness. its proximate cause is a thing to be convinced about. It is compared to a stone pillar owing to its unshakable resolve regarding the object." CMA p. 82 Larry 19199 From: Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, contemplation and insight Hi Nina, Thinking about this some more, I agree vipassana isn't discursive. When the commentary says, "his mindfulness is established with the thought 'The body exists.'", this isn't a thought with words but rather an understanding/experience. Similarly in Way 42 there is a comparison of the awareness of deportment in animals and the awareness of sati sampajanna. Sati sampajanna isn't contemplative or philosophical but mindfulness with understanding, conditioned by careful noticing and perhaps contemplative reflection. Larry 19200 From: Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Way 42: [T] From the sort of mere awareness denoted by reference to canines and the like, proceeds the idea of a soul, the perverted perception, with the belief that there is a doer and an experiencer. One who does not uproot or remove that wrong perception owing to non-opposition to that perception and to absence of contemplative practice cannot be called one who develops anything like a subject of meditation. Hi all, I think the main difference between an animal's awareness and satipatthana is the objectivity in satipatthana. However, we could learn from animals in that we often don't experience rupa, or even nama, but are preoccupied with a stream of concepts. Larry 19201 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:20pm Subject: Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Dear Htoo Naing, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing " wrote: < snip > To cease sufferings and extinguish all the fire(Kilesas and Sanyojanas),Citta needs to be trained diligently until the Highest Panna is attained.As it is a leader,it can train itself and its allied cetasikas as well.One can sense the existance of one's Citta.So why not possible to lead oneself to a better living and life.One should never be led by bad things and bad thought.Lead yourselves.Behave yourselves.Citta is a leader and Citta is the Leader. KKT: You wrote: << it (ie. Citta) can train itself >> So Citta can << control >> (at least) itself? Metta, KKT 19202 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 0:36am Subject: Dear James Dear James, I read your letter number 18681 you wrote to Janice. It's my first time writing a letter to you. I just chose any letters you sent to different people and now I am making a reply. Because this is my first letter, I will introduce myself. My name is Ki Yong Kim from Korea. I am 14 years old this year. Please introduce yourself when you make a reply. I think this is the longest letter I ever read. WOW. I read that you write poems! And I read one of your poems about your car and it was quite funny. I have some questions. I never knew there were American monks! I thought Americans are all Christians. Why do American become Buddhist monks? I don't think I have anymore questions because you never wrote a letter to me before and I don't have anything more to talk about. Sorry. I will reply when you do~ Bye From, Ki Yong 19203 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:36am Subject: Star Kids Dear All, I just received a note offlist asking about the Star Kids. I now realize that for anyone who has recently joined DSG or didn’t read my introduction note when they first started writing a few months ago that there could be some confusion as in these comments: ..... off-list friend: “Who is this star kid. I think some one is just doing some research on how to answer some basics in Buddhism. I checked up their email id and there is no club of such in Yahoo HK. Have you noticed their emails?” ..... Yes, I have noticed their emails because I’m the one who opened the ‘Starkidsclub’ and who forwards the mail to DSG;-) These Star Kids are all, so far, students of mine aged between 8 and 14 yrs old. They started writing a few months ago after one of them, Jan, wished to write a letter after her teacher died in the Bali bomb attack. It snowballed from there. They read selected posts I show them or give them to take home and just if they wish, write posts themselves. Only one that I know of comes from a Buddhist family, so their questions are mostly simple and basic -- sometimes the hardest to answer as James says. Quite a few of them have photos posted in the photo album. The reason I opened a separate yahoo account and ask them to post to that address in the first place, rather than just join DSG as some of them would prefer, is so that a)parents are unlikely to object to their young children having their own email addresses shown on a public list and b) for me to be able to ‘veto’ if the whole post is off-topic. They have to follow the same rules that everyone else does and Kom helps keep an eye on this;-) As some are only 8 or 9 years old, there are bound to be comments about toys - this is daily life for kids. I hope that by encouraging these children to write, we may all in the process learn a little more about how we can share the Buddha’s Teachings with children. Of course anyone can skip these posts and the answers that some members kindly give. ..... off-list friend:“And who knows to how many buddhist groups these viruses have subscribed themselves. Why not do a test on this guy. A planned test to see his reaction. Just a concerned thought.” ..... Just to emphasise, there is no virus and ‘this guy’ is me or rather some of my students. If anyone has children or young friends who would like to participate in the same way, I’m happy to help if I can. I also think that some of the replies written by James, Kom, Christine and others are well worth reading out at home to any youngsters. I find them very inspiring too. Some of these can be seen in Useful Posts under 'Children - letters to' http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I’d like to also mention that some of these young lives have been quite ‘transformed’ by the replies. Children who had never learnt about or discussed any religion or questions about life, now arrive and the first thing they ask me is “Are there any new letters”. I hope this clarifies a little. Thank you for the enquiry. Metta, Sarah ===== 19204 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:03am Subject: Momentous occasion nr 2 Hi all, It is almost becoming cliche, Herman is posting another sutta link :-) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-088.html This one is about Punna, who answers the Buddha's questions as to how he will handle different levels of violence towards himself (upto and including murder). The fact that I am quoting these does not mean I agree with their position, or that I understand them, they are merely some things I found re Buddhist conflict resolution ( which so far sounds pretty much like "Whatever happens, do nothing with your body". Sarah, a slightly different topic, but I just love it when the star kids call you Mrs Abbott. It makes you sound like you are in your forties :-) Enough for now, hey All the best herman 19205 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:45am Subject: PHOTO NEWS + Re: Star Kids Hi Sarah (and off-list Friend), Your post made me smile, though I can see how our Friend could easily have taken the view about the Starkids that he or she did. I thank him or her for broaching the subject, because for everyone who asks, there are ten who had the same thought but remained silent. Sarah, your mention of the photos of the Starkids means that I ought to tell everyone that they can check out Kom's great work in rearranging the photos into briefcases. Starkids are members, and are therefore in the Members' briefcase. <> Here are some links to the photos and to the individual briefcases - you will note that the links don't run over two lines. Any questions on how that was accomplished, please direct to Kom (the one with the computer skills). metta, Christine Photos: http://tinyurl.com/4wyq Members: http://tinyurl.com/4wyt Significant Others & Family http://tinyurl.com/4wyv DSG Meetings: http://tinyurl.com/4wyu Others: http://tinyurl.com/4wyx --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear All, > > I just received a note offlist asking about the Star Kids. > 19206 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentration Dear Larry, Now you got it exactly. I think studying about Cetasikas will help us a lot to have a good insight into Dhamma.Would you like to discuss about the Cetasika''Vedana''?It is one of the five congregations and it is one of four Namakkhandha.What is more,we can stretch it out on to Vedananupassana,one of four Mahasatipathana which is again from 37 Bodhipakkhiya-dhamma,which are necessary in attaining the highest Panna. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > Thanks for your answer.The word "adhimokkha" means literally the releasing of the mind onto the object. Hence it has been rendered decision or resolution. It has the characteristic of conviction, the function of not groping, and manifestation as decisiveness. its proximate cause is a thing to beconvinced about. It is compared to a stone pillar owing to itsunshakable resolve regarding the object." CMA p. 82 >Larry 19207 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:59am Subject: Re: rusty/buddha Dear Hilary, Heidi sounds as if she loves you a lot, wanting to lie close to your feet. What sort of dog is she? When there is a thunder storm, Rusty tries to get onto my lap. He weighs nearly 50 kg. so I don't let him or I would be squashed flat! I'm glad Heidi isn't sick anymore, when our dogs are sick or hurt we can feel so helpless and scared for them. You asked a really interesting question Hilary when you said "Do you think the Buddha can bless the family and the dog to safe and in good health?" The Buddha is not alive anymore - but he did teach that listening to and thinking about certain teachings could be like a blessing. Those teachings have an unusual name - Parittas. This means the Protections. When Rusty is stiff and sore from his injured leg, I sit with him and pat him slowly, and gently say 'Rusty, may you be safe and protected, may you be healthy and strong, may you be happy of heart and mind, may you live with ease and well-being". Rusty doesn't understand the words (apart from his name), but he understands the love that I am sending him in the pats and the gentle tone of my voice. I think all of us feel better when someone sends us love and speaks gently to us, don't you? metta (loving kindness) Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear Christine, > > My name is Hilary, I am 11.I have read some letters > about your lucky dog Rusty.I love dogs and have one of > my own call Heidi (even as I am writing this to you > she is under my legs)she will be turning two this > July.There was one time when Heidi was ill and the > whole family was worried sick about her. Do you think > the Buddha can bless the family and the dog to safe > and in good health? > > I'd love to hear more about Rusty > > Hope your dog is getting well! > > From > Hilary 19208 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana Hi James, A few rambling thoughts below...... --- "James " wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I have been meaning to reply to a post that I have now lost in mass > of other posts (ironically most of them about control). However, I > believe, if memory serves, that you and I have two main sticking > points from that post. One was about the round of becoming: I say > the Buddha said he didn't know how it originated, and you said that > he did and everything was explained in the Patthana (which when he > thought about multi-colored rays emanated from his body). The other > point was how could I deny rupa if there is a body which I > experience. Since the second one is more complicated, let's tackle > the first issue. .... S: I could certainly ditto your first sentence here. I think others replied and you found my lost post (yes, caught you talking about me behind my back I believe;-)) and we both agree that you mis-paraphrased me and you stated I mis-praphrased you. I won’t ‘tic-tac’ over that;-) I think Howard gave a very neat summary when he said: ..... H: "Now, the Patthana is an attempt at describing the varieties of relationships holding among conditioned dhammas. It serves as a parallel system, I believe, to the scheme of dependent origination. Now, whether it is due to the Buddha or not, and whether *any* of the Abhidhamma is due to the Buddha or not, I don't think that there is any contradiction between an attempt to lay bare all possible interconnections among conditioned dhammas and the fact/assumption of no first cause." .... S: In brief, I think we both can agree that ‘from an inconstruable beginning’ samsara continues on and that the Patthana contains a lot of intricate detail on conditional relations. ..... > I was surprised to learn that, yes, there is supposedly a book that > explains everything. To quote accesstoinsight.org: > ·Patthana ("The Book of Relations"). This book, by far the longest > single volume in the Tipitaka (over 6,000 pages long in the Siamese > edition), describes the 24 paccayas, or laws of conditionality, > through which the dhammas interact. These laws, when applied in every > possible permutation with the dhammas described in the Dhammasangani, > give rise to all knowable experience. .... S: Yes, it might make your Inland Revenue tome seem like light bedtime-reading, James. It starts of with a fairly simple and clear enumeration of the 24 Conditions and brief summary of these and then becomes increasingly complex. You asked about the teaching of so much detail by the Buddha. I think it’s very hard for us to have any inkling of the knowledge of the Buddha or even of Sariputta who could appreciate all this knowledge so easily. On the question of memorizing the detail, again we are referring to arahants with all the special powers who could memorize and recite until the details were written down in Sri Lanka. Monks were beginning to forget the details and hence the obvious need for this. At the First Council, I believe it took 9 months to rehearse the entire Tipitaka. I’m sure you question the purpose of these details and the applicability to life and development of wisdom. I can only stress that, just as we see on DSG, different people find it helpful to read different amounts and kinds of details. If one gets lost in the detail and it becomes just another academic subject, of course it’s quite useless. Similarly, if one doesn’t consider any detail at all, it’s dificult to see as elements those phenomena we’re used to taking for ‘wholes’ and concepts. We read this is the way to develop dispassion which as you reminded us, is so essential. I particularly liked your phrase "Dispassion is like the cooling mist that put out the flames because it is of the opposite nature." Ray gave a couple of sutta references using ‘dispassion’ too. Let me add them with a couple of comments linking them to elements and conditions: 1) From SN XII.31 "One sees with right discernment that 'this has come into being.' Seeing with right discernment that 'this has come into being,' one is – through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance -- released from what has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment.' Seeing with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment,' one is -- through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance -- released from the nutriment by which it has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation.' Seeing with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation,' one is -- through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance -- released from what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a person who has fathomed the Dhamma. " ***** S: Comment: conditioned phenomena. As you wrote yesterday, passion (or craving) is the cause of dukkha. Developing dispassion or equanimity towards whatever is experienced is the way to release from dukkha. ***** 2. SN XXII.23 The Blessed One said, "And which are the phenomena to be comprehended? Form is a phenomenon to be comprehended. Feeling ... Perception ... Fabrications ... Consciousness is a phenomenon to be comprehended. These are called phenomena to be comprehended. "And which is comprehension? Any ending of passion, ending of aversion, ending of delusion. [1] This is called comprehension." ***** S: Comment: passion can only be attenuated and dispassion developed through comprehension of these phenomena, aka khandhas or ultimate realities. We don’t have to call them abhidhamma or refer to the Patthana, but comprehension or wisdom has to know these actualities as they are with no self anywhere to be found. Why does such a feeling or form or consciousness arise at this moment and not another? Is it really by wishing or a self controlling or is it by a complex set of conditions, one of which is kamma? ***** Ray gave other useful quotes and wrote: "Why does dependent origination not mean we are trapped in determinism? I think it is because there can be observation without an observer, decisions without a decider, for that means our actions, our thoughts this moment have a large impact on what happens the next."..... In addition, by understanding that there really are only elements arising and falling away, the futility of passion or clinging can be seen becomes a little more apparent. It has to begin with intellectual clear view. Wars, policies, responses and actions are merely "Form.... Feeling ... Perception ... Fabrications... Consciousness....These are called phenomena to be comprehended." ..... James, finally, in a recent post to Htoo, you said that the Buddha "did not teach things that only a select few with ‘panna’ could understand." I don’t want to argue over terms, but I believe he did refer to those with little dust in their eyes that could appreciate the truths. Repeatedly we read about how ‘deep’ and ‘hard to fathom’ they are. I don’t think it matters what terms we use -- and for some it’s a lot clearer to use Pali terms, but we appreciate for others like yourself that the reverse is true -- what is important is to help each other remove that dust and to continue sharing what we understand. I’ll be glad to hear any further comments you have on any of these issues or that second point about the body not yet tackled;-) Always glad to hear from you. Metta, Sarah ====== 19209 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentous occasion nr 2 Hi Herman. These are indeed 'Momentous Occasions'....I have noted a 'Visuddhi-what's-it' Momentous Occasion recently too and wondered if you realised you were quoting from a Commentary;-);-) I thought at the time I'd better not say anything unless the spell might be broken..... --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi all, > > It is almost becoming cliche, Herman is posting another sutta link :-) > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-088.html > > This one is about Punna, who answers the Buddha's questions as to how > he will handle different levels of violence towards himself (upto and > including murder). > > The fact that I am quoting these does not mean I agree with their > position, or that I understand them, they are merely some things I > found re Buddhist conflict resolution ( which so far sounds pretty > much like "Whatever happens, do nothing with your body". .... I note the qualifying legalese, but like the way you give the link and a brief summary. It's good to see what you're finding too. Perhaps others will come in with comments....I'm out of time right now. .... > > Sarah, a slightly different topic, but I just love it when the star > kids call you Mrs Abbott. It makes you sound like you are in your > forties :-) .... The sad truth, Herman, is that very, very soon I'll be dreaming of when I was .....;-( Still pretty much a kid at heart though;-) Keep up the suttas....I'm following carefully..... In appreciation, Sarah ======= 19210 From: nidive Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:17am Subject: Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Hi Htoo Naing, > Citta is a leader and Citta is the Leader. You are right! "I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message is this: The fortress stands for this body -- composed of four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). THE COMMANDER OF THE FORTRESS STANDS FOR CONSCIOUSNESS. The central square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html Just as the commander of the fortress is the leader of that very fortress, so is consciousness (cittas) the leader of this very fortress of existence. I like this Sutta very much. Is there any commentary on this Sutta? If anyone has it, please post. Thank you. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19211 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:25am Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing > > > Hi Kom, > > Thanks for your reply. I forgot that volition is > a universal cetasika, > arising with every citta. I see that its function > is to accumulate. Does > that mean that every citta is accumulated and > becomes part of the > repository of accumulations that condition javana cittas? > As far I understand it, the accumulation (of states) is specific to Javana. You accumulates tendencies toward kusala or akusala states by way of the same kind of citta repeating in Javana 7 times. I don't think of the vipaka cittas as accumulating at all. It's not only volition that is accumulated. Other states create tendencies as well. If you are prone to anger because you experience something (and anger is obvious instead of volition being obvious), you are again prone to anger as a similar object is experienced in the future. Same thing with other akusala and kusala (including volition) states. How would you explain repository? How are all these accumulations stored? I think accumulations and habits are easier to understand. kom 19212 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] PHOTO NEWS + Re: Star Kids Dear Christine, > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] PHOTO NEWS + Re: Star Kids > ... > > I > told him photos are rupa; that rupa is the > reality that does not > experience anything ... ergo, the kids' photos > would not be lonely > away from the parents' photos ... really, it's > O.K. Kom, you can > trust me on this! You are not splitting up > families! :-) >> > :-) It would be to my benefit if you reminds me often about nama and rupa. I don't think I can never have enough good friends in dhamma, or enough reminders. The journey is a long long one, and is easy for me to fall off the path. Appeciative, kom 19213 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Dear Larry & All, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 6:02 PM > > Way 42: [T] From the sort of mere awareness > denoted by reference to > canines and the like, proceeds the idea of a > soul, the perverted > perception, with the belief that there is a doer > and an experiencer. One > who does not uproot or remove that wrong > perception owing to > non-opposition to that perception and to absence > of contemplative > practice cannot be called one who develops > anything like a subject of > meditation. > What is meant by "non-opposition to that perception" and "contemplative practice"? kom 19214 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:26am Subject: Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Dear NSB, Thanks for your code for reference. It casts a good light on the present matter when a good example is available. I like that Sutta very much. As our lives are short,why not brush up that Leader. Thanks and With Due Respect, Htoo Naing --------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > > Citta is a leader and Citta is the Leader. > > You are right! > > "I have given you this simile > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html > > Just as the commander of the fortress is the leader of that very > fortress, so is consciousness (cittas) the leader of this very > fortress of existence. > > I like this Sutta very much. Is there any commentary on this Sutta? > If anyone has it, please post. Thank you. > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19215 From: bodhi342 Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:53am Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Christine and all, Thanks for your response, and for defending Herman's point of view. Do you believe there is such a thing as rationalization? I do. I think it is a frequently invoked psychological mechanism to comfort us when inner conflict arises, which in turn occurs because we are not steadfastly in tune with the "..........." Therefore, we can rationalize infinite reasons to treat a threat to our own child in one way, and that to the anonymous child another. How many parents do you know, when faced with imminent (say weeks away) danger of death of their own child from a governmental action, will be satisfied with just writing to a politician? Even their demeanor to that politician would be more respectful, one could speculate. There would be a sense of desperation, even panic at the loss. We would not expect just sending a detached, possibly angry message, then shrugging our shoulders and saying, "Did the best under the circumstances, John Howard did not listen to me, he is to blame!" This despite having the time to plan and execute 'valid' intervention that has a chance of saving even one of the lives. How many people go and try to compassionately understand the causes that lead to any war? How many Australians would try to compassionately persuade against war by traveling to Canberra, or by traveling to Baghdad? Are these options not possibilities for action, in this day and age of fast and easy travel? My point here is that we automatically prioritize our energy and action, but not our righteousness, because expression of the latter is free! Is intention for peace sufficient in and of itself? Are our consciences so easily mollified? Buddhism offers a wise, wise alternative. Dispassion, considering that everything worldly is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta. Whether one interprets that as leading to right action or no action is dependant on conditions, I presume. Further, the dhamma would not differentiate between being killed by a western bomb to that of being killed by a dagger, or a landslide, or starvation elsewhere. Nor would it prioritize the death of your child as opposed to someone else's. Why then, should we? Yet how many practice what they talk about so much? The Ven. Punna did (please see Herman's link today)! Buddhist attitude is also commendable for its consistency. It cannot be broken down by logical argument, as is the case with so many of the secular worldviews. It is a treasure amongst treasures that is underutilized. I speculate it is underutilized because we are easily deluded with rationalization (hypocrisy is a harsher word). This issue is brought to the fore because of the ongoing dialogue about war. It occurs, that the only ways war can be eventually ended is either destruction of all the participants of war - (Armageddon); or the active participation of those whose very essence radiates tolerance, peace and dispassion. Christine, please understand that I am not judging anyone or recommending any specific action. I am just trying to probe apparent inconsistencies to better understand the gap between rhetoric and practice. metta, dharam 19216 From: James Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > A few rambling thoughts below...... Hi Sarah, Thank you for the post. You have written many things that I agree with and a few things that I believe are wishful thinking. I don't see the need to say more. Looking at my thoughts and motivations with dispassion and mindfulness, I don't see a reason to say more. I have reached my conclusions about the Abhidhamma, have enumerated them enough, and anything else would be conceit. In the future, I will try to keep an eye out for non-Abhidhamma posts and threads and participate in those. Yes, replying to the Star Kids is very difficult because they ask the most basic questions. I don't reply to their letters right away, like other posts, so let them know to have patience (something kids rarely have ;-). I have also been enjoying the replies from the other members like Christine and Kom. I am seeing a side of Kom I didn't know existed! ;-) Take care, James ps. I smiled about the member who described the Star Kids as viruses. Ironic because he's right, they are viruses...but so are we all. 19217 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:06am Subject: intimation through body and speech, no 5 intimation through body and speech, no 5 The ³Visuddhimagga² (XVIII, 31) uses a simile of a marionette in order to illustrate that there is no being in the ultimate sense, only conditioned phenomena. We read: Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the Ancients said: ³ The mental and material are really here, ³ But here there is no human being to be found, ³For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll-- ³ Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks. When one sees a performance with marionettes, it seems that the puppets have lives of their own: they exert themselves, they are absorbed, attached or full of hatred and sorrow, and one can laugh and cry because of the story that is being enacted. However, the puppets are only wood and strings, held by men who make them act. When one sees how the puppets are stored after the play they are not impressive anymore, only pieces of wood and strings. When we study the Abhidhamma it helps us to understand more that this marionette we call ³self² can move about, act and speak because of the appropriate conditions. As we have seen in the definitions of the two kinds of intimation by the ŒDhammasangani² (§ 636, 637), these two kinds of rúpa can be conditioned by kusala citta, akusala citta or ³inoperative² citta (kiriyacitta). When we realize that intimation through body and speech is very often conditioned by akusala citta, we come to see the danger of being forgetful of nåma and rúpa while we make gestures and speak. Then we are urged to remember the Buddha¹s words as to the practice of ³clear comprehension² (sampajañña) in the ³Satipatthåna Sutta² (Middle Length Sayings no. 10, in the section on Mindfulness of the Body, dealing with the four kinds of clear comprehension [5] ) : And further, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practising clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, is a person practising clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension. Footnote: 5. See the translation in ³The Way of Mindfulness² by Ven. Soma. The end. 19218 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dukkha as Medicine?Upanisa sutta. Dear Dharam and Azita, I delay my answers to Emails because I do not like to answer on the spur of the moment. Like your questions, they deserve attention. (Sorry, friends, I still have to delay answers to other mails, but it is all in my file.) op 26-01-2003 02:18 schreef bodhi342 op bodhi342@y...: > Thank you for the reference - will try to find it. By the title, it > seems to suggest that indeed dukkha is a supporting (necessary?) > condition for faith. Nina: Yes, it is more than just a stimulant or a medicine. As mentioned before, we should note the three kinds of dukkha:1. dukkha-dukkha, pain and unpleasant feeling which are obvious. 2. Dukkha as change, separation from what is desired. 3. Dukkha as the unsatisfactoriness of all conditioned realities which are impermanent and not worth clinging to. The third one is subtle and difficult to see. It is the understanding of this dukkha that can bring about a beginning of the reversal of the chain of the dependent origination. Let us first consider the Bodhisatta, when he encountered dukkha. We had discussions before on the subject, and I shall partly quote from old posts. When the Buddha was the Bodhisatta Sumedha, he saw: ³Even as evil exists, loveliness exists too, so as birth exists, the unborn also is to be desired. Even as a man fallen into filth, though seeing a brimming pool does not seek that pool, that is not a defect in the pool. So, though the pool of the Undying exists for the washing away the stains of the defilements, if one does not seek that pool, the defect is not in the pool of the Undying.² (Chronicle of the Buddhas IIA, Account of Sumedha) Thus, he understood that there must also be an end to rebirth and an end to defilements. We can consider what the Bodhisatta realized when he saw in the royal park an old person, a sick person and a dead person. We read about this in the "Sublime Story"(D III, 14) the story of the Bodhisatta Vipassi which is the same for all Bodhisattas. It is so simple and impressive (and more direct in Pali, Warder lesson 24, Jaran!). He asked the charioteer: <"What, good charioteer, is ending one's days?" "It means, my lord, that neither mother, nor father, nor other kinsfolk will see him any more, nor will he ever again see them." "But am I too then subject to death, have I not got beyond the reach of death? Will neither the raja, nor the ranee, nor any other of my kin see me more, or I ever again see them?"> The charioteer then answered that we are all subject to death. We may begin to see more the disadvantage of being subject to birth, old age and death. The cycle is conditioned by ignorance and clinging. We may understand the danger of ignorance and clinging and that nibbana is the end of all defilements, although we do not know this through direct experience. And wrong view of self should be eradicated first. It is so persistent. Acharn Sujin stressed again that there are three rounds of understanding the four noble Truths: sacca ñåna, which is the understanding of the truth (sacca meaning truth), kicca ñåna, which is the practice of right mindfulness of nåma and rúpa (kicca meaning function) and kata ñåna, the realization of the truth (kata meaning, it has been done). As to the first round, sacca ñåna, this is the firm understanding of what is dukkha: the objects appearing at this moment. They are impermanent and thus they are unsatisfactory. We may ask ourselves why sati does not arise more frequently. The reason is, that sacca ñåna is not yet firm enough, it is not well established so that it can condition kicca ñåna, the direct awareness of one nåma or rúpa at a time. Sacca ñåna is firm understanding of the truth and the right Path, so that one does not deviate from the right Path. Hardness, seeing, visible object appear all the time in daily life, but we are still ignorant of it. > Nina: Life is only one moment of experiencing an object. Life is > seeing, or hearing, etc. Do we want to stop seeing, thus, to stop > life now? Answer from > most people: No. > > D: Yes, I think that would indeed be the answer. > > However, the eye is dukkha, seeing is dukkha, the feelings which > arise on account of what is seen are dukkha. What are the > implications of this choice of continuing to see? Craving to see? > Attachment to both seeing and the object of sight? N:Attachment to all realities, not seeing their impermanence, their nature of dukkha. Ignorance blinds us. Dh: Would not-seeing or blindness aid in understanding to some extent? N: No, not at all. We also read in the Sutta that someone said to the Buddha: if I would be blind, deaf, asleep, it would be better for me. This is not the way. Objects impinge all the time, they should be known as they are: impermanent, dukkha, non-self. Dh: What is our state during sleep, when there may be a significant drop > off in namas: seeing, hearing etc. N: Sleep is not helpful, no opportunity to develop right understanding. That is why the Buddha said to the monks: don't be attached to sleep. Everybody can apply this in his own situation, no need to force oneself. > Dh: Related: is someone blind therefore partially or fully dead? (I ask > this in the conventional sense, which I think you were referring to, > not in terms of Anicca). N: Are you referring to A. Sujin's question above? I do not quite understand. She stressed especially what life is: one moment only, be it seeing, hearing or any other experience. Someone who is blind still has the other sense organs, and mind-door processes. He can develop right understanding of all that normally appears in his life. Dh: I hope you do not mind these questions which arise from a stimulating > response. [I feel like Vacchagotta :-) !] N: I am glad you are on this list and like your probing questions. This morning I heard on tape that A. Sujin said: the practice is not a set time, apart from the moment of understanding. Life is this moment of seeing or hearing. We do not have to delay and go to some place first. Then we lose precious moments of developing understanding. But we have to reflect on what we hear, it can only sink in slowly. Now and then I stop the tape, and I really have to consider what I heard, even though I have listened for a long time. But what we heard for years can gradually become more meaningful, I find. To Azita: I like your post with wise observations: even the famous 'patience, courage and good cheer' is 'not me, not mine, not my self'.> Nina: Gradually we discover lobha that is more subtle, our hidden motives we did not know before, and how glad I am also A. Sujin points this out all the time. I am especially impressed all the time and this time even more by:< life is in this moment.> Helps us not to see things as static. As I remarked to Larry while reading the Way, there is the word meditator, yogavacara all the time. it was explained by A. Supee: this is the *citta* that develops panna, but explained under the aspect of teaching by way of person (puggala desana). Now, even this we may take in a theoretical way: the Buddha taught by way of convention, vohara or by way of ultimate realities. This can still be like theory, it may not be very meaningful. But, as soon as we understand: life is in a moment, meditation is in a moment, this explanation becomes very meaningful, not theoretical at all. It helps us to see that understanding can be developed in a moment. What else is there but the present moment to develop understanding? Yogavacara, it can really have an impact on us. A reminder not to be neglectful. Nina. 19219 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:06am Subject: Perfections Ch 7, Patience, no 19 Perfections Ch 7, Patience, no 19 The Buddha did not teach Dhamma only to monks, but also to all his followers who developed paññå. He taught Dhamma so that one can see that the truth is the truth: someone who is dear, pleasant, respected and who should be praised is a person who can endure visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes and touches. Some people do not consider and think of patience and endurance, they have not accumulated patience. We can see the danger of impatience when someone who is happy himself and without trouble, cannot stand another person¹s happiness. Someone who has accumulated a great deal of impatience cannot bear even another person¹s happiness. We read in the Commentary to the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, §5, ³Begrudging² (macharí) [23] about the five kinds of avarice (macchariya) of a miser: With regard to avarice as to dwelling (åvåsa), he cannot bear to see someone else in that dwelling, with regard to avarice as to family (kula), he cannot bear to see someone else visiting that family, with regard to avarice as to gain (låbha), he cannot bear someone else to obtain something, with regard to avarice as to praise (vanna), he cannot bear that people praise the good qualities of others, with regard to avarice as to Dhamma, he does not want to explain the theory of the Dhamma to someone else. This shows the importance of patience. If sati arises which is non-forgetful of kusala, one is able to have endurance. We should know what the Scriptures say about the excellence of patience and the disadvantage of impatience. We read in the ³Gradual Sayings² (III), Book of the Fives, Ch XXII, § 5, Impatience, that the Buddha said: Monks, there are these five disadvantages from being impatient. What five? Not to many folk he is dear and pleasing; he is full of malevolence; there is much harm for him; he dies muddled in thought and rises in unhappy planes, such as hell planes. Monks, these are the five disadvantages from being impatient. It is true that someone who is impatient is not dear and pleasing to many people, that he has much malevolence. When one is irritated because of an unpleasant experience, he should know that accumulated inclinations are the conditions for being bad-tempered and often having aversion, more than a person who is patient. For someone who is impatient there is much harm, because he will receive the harmful effect of his own akusala. Someone else cannot harm that person, only his own defilements are the cause of harm for him, and moreover, he will die muddled in thought. If someone is often impatient and overcome by anger, this can also happen when he is near death. When anger, pain or strong dislike arise, one is likely to be impatient, and at that moment he follows the inclination to akusala. Everybody has to leave this world, and when the citta is impure just before dying, it is the condition for rebirth in an unhappy plane such as hell. This is a danger much more fearsome than dangers in this world. Footnote: 23. Machariya is avarice. There are five kinds explained in the Scriptures: avarice concerning dwelling (åvasa), family (kula), that is the family which gives requisites to a monk, gain (låbha), the requisites he receives, praise (vanna) and Dhamma. 19220 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical View vs. Scientific View (a big post) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Larry > > Sati does not perceive, it is sanna that perceives. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear KC,Larry and Dhamma, Now I pull the old thread.What I would like to add is that sanna cannot perceive as well.It is Citta who perceive fully everything.Sati,Sanna,vedana and all other cetasikas cannot perceive and perception is not their function. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19221 From: Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Way 43, Comm, Deportment "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Modes of Deportment, p.55 In the elucidation of these questions the following is said: Who goes? No living being or person whatsoever. Whose going is it? Not the going of any living being or person. On account of what does the going take place? On account of the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity. Because of that this yogi knows thus: If there arises the thought, "I shall go," that thought produces the process of oscillation; the process of oscillation produces expression (the bodily movement which indicates going and so forth). The moving on of the whole body through the diffusion of the process of oscillation is called going. The same is the method of exposition as regards the other postures: standing and so forth. There, too, the yogi knows thus: If there arises the thought, "I shall stand," that thought produces the process of oscillation. The process of oscillation produces bodily expression. The raising upright of the whole body from below owing to the diffusion of the process of oscillation is called standing. If there arises the thought "I shall sit," that thought produces the process of oscillation. The process of oscillation produces bodily expression. The bending of the lower part of the body and the raising upright of the upper part of the body owing to the diffusion of the process of oscillation is called sitting. If there arises the thought, "I shall lie down," that thought produces the process of oscillation. The process of oscillation produces bodily expression. The straightening or the spreading of the whole body horizontally or across, owing to the diffusion of the process of oscillation, is called lying down. [Tika] There, "who goes?" is a doer-question of the action of going, without first separating efficient cause and action (tattha ko gacchatiti sadhanam kriyañca avinibbhutam katva gamana kriya kattu puccha]. That is for indicating just the bare phenomenon of going, through the condition of denying the-doer-state-endowed-with-a-soul [sa kattubhava visittha atta patikkhepatta dhamma mattasseva gamana dassanato]. (Or in other words the question "Who goes?" anticipates a negative answer, for according to the Abhidhamma there is no doer or goer but just a process dependent on conditions. There is merely a going. No one goes.) [T] With the words, "whose going is it?", the commentator says the same thing in another way after separating efficient cause and action for making clear the absence of a doer-connection [kassa gamananti tamevattham pariyayantarena vadati sadhanam kriyañca akattu sambandhi bhava vibhavanato]. [T] "On what account is it?" This is a question for the real reason of the action of going from which the idea of a goer is rejected. [kim karanati pana patikkhitta kattukaya gamana kriyaya aviparita karana puccha]. 19222 From: Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:56pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Way 42: One who does not uproot or remove that wrong perception ["idea of a soul"] owing to non-opposition to that perception and to absence of contemplative practice cannot be called one who develops anything like a subject of meditation. Kom: What is meant by "non-opposition to that perception" and "contemplative practice"? ------------ Hi Kom, In order to uproot the idea of a soul or person, one must be mindful of the reality of body, feeling, mind, and dhamma when they arise in experience and contemplate their characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and not self. Experiencing these characteristics in these objects is the actual uprooting. What would you say? Larry 19223 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Hi Swee Boon (NEO!), You wrote: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html Neo: "Just as the commander of the fortress is the leader of that very fortress, so is consciousness (cittas) the leader of this very fortress of existence. I like this Sutta very much. Is there any commentary on this Sutta? If anyone has it, please post. Thank you." ..... S: I find it useful too and am appreciating the points you are making. I thought I had read this sutta with more notes in one of the commentaries like the Atthasalini, but I can’t find it. In a previous post I typed out part of it (see end of post as some of the terms used in the translation are a little different) from B.Bodhi’s translation. Let me add a few commentary notes he gives which may be relevant to your discussions: Note 207,page 1428 "Spk (Commentary to SN): Why is this introduced? If that bhikkhu understood (the meaning being conveyed by the ki.msuka simile), then it is introduced to teach him the Dhamma. If he did not understand, this simile of the city is introduced to explain and clarify the meaning. Again, Spk gives a much more elaborate version of the simile and its application. In brief: The lord of the city is a prince, son of a virtuous world monarch, who had been appointed by his father to administer one of the outlying provinces. Under the influence of bad friends the prince had become dissolute and passed his time drinking liquor and enjoying music and dance. The king sent the two mesengers to admonish the prince to abandon his heedless ways and resume his duties. One messenger is a brave warrior (representing the samatha meditation subject), the other a wise minister (representing the vipassana meditation subject). The brave warrior grabs hold of the wayward prince by the head and threatens to decapitate him if he doesn’t change his ways: this is like the time the mind has been grabbed and made motionless by the concentration arisen through the first jhana. The fleeing of the prince’s dissolute friends is like the disappearance of the five hindrances when the first jhana has arisen. When the prince agrees to follow the king’s command, this is like the time the meditator has emerged from jhana. When the minister delivers the king’s command, this is like the time when the meditator, with his mind pliable through concentration, develops insight meditation. When the two messengers raise up the white canopy over the prince after he has been coronated, this is like the time the white canopy of liberation is raised over the meditator after he has attained arahantship by means of serenity and insight. ..... Note 209 "Spk identifies this as the insight-mind (vipassanaacitta, which is the prince to be coronated with the coronation of arahantship by the two messengers, serenity and insight. ..... Note 210 "Spk: Nibbana is called the "message of reality" (yathaabhuuta.m vacana.m) because in its real nature it is unshakable and immutable (yathaabuutasabhaava.m akuppa.m avikaari). ***** Hope this helps. Sarah ====== B.Bodhi transl SN 1V, Salayatanavagga, 194: 'Suppose, bhikkhu, a king had a frontier city with strong ramparts, walls, and arches, and with six gates. The gatekeeper posted there would be wise, competent, and intelligent; one who keeps out strangers and admits acquaintances. A swift pair of messengers would come from the east and ask the gatekeeper: 'Where, good man, is the lord of this city?' He would reply: 'He is sitting in the central square.' Then the swift pair of messengers would deliver a message of reality to the lord of the city and leave by the route by which they had arrived. Similarly, messengers would come from the west, from the north, from the south, deliver their message, and leave by the route by which they had arrived. "I have made up this simile, bhikkkhu, in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning here: ‘The city’: this is a designation for this body consisting of the four great elements....’The six gates’: this is a designation for the six internal bases. "The gatekeeper’: this is a designation for mindfulness. ‘The swift pair of messengers’: this is a designation for serenity and insight (vipassana). ‘The lord of the city’: this is a designation for consciousness. ‘The cenral square’: this is a designation for the four great elements .....’A message of reality’: this is a designation for Nibbana. ‘The route by which they had arrived’: this is a designation for the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view....right concentration." ======================================= 19224 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Frank, --- Frank Kuan wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > I appreciate your thoughts on aloneness. When I was > going to school, there were students who could work 20 > hours a week, juggle relationships and all kinds of > committments, and still excel in their studies. .... .....and I’ve never been one of them;-) ..... >My hat > off to them and off to you if you find your lifestyle > affords you as much progress in the dhamma as the more > typical success stories in the suttas. ..... .....nor a sutta ‘typical success story’;-) I hope I’ve never given that impression in either of these regards. ..... > As far as I'm concerned, the vast majority of people > who have made major strides in their field, whether > worldly or unworldly, benefit from large chunks of > seclusion. > seclusion doesn't guarantee success, and has it's > difficulties as you pointed out. Just like dedicating > two hours to doing homework doesn't guarantee the > homework is going to get done or get done well. But > all else being equal, I'd say the best opportunity to > do the homework well is in seclusion than in the > company of television, friends, kids, pets, and other > distractions. And this is regardless of whether I'm a > layperson, married, ordained, whatever. ..... I certainly agree about the ‘homework in seclusion’ though some of the kids assure me they do better with the ‘television, friends, kids, pets, and other distractions’ (a little rationalization here perhaps...;-)). Certainly also for concentrated tasks - whether it be my yoga, tai chi, writing posts or office work, I find I need a fair degree of ‘seclusion’ -- to which there is a lot of attachment as well, apparent when it's 'disturbed'--, so we’re agreed up to here. When it comes to the development of satipatthana, however, I believe the picture is quite different and not determined by greater or lesser solitude. The important conditions are those which lead to the development of right understanding of realities such as listening to the good friends, considering and intellectually understanding what these realities are in the first place. I don’t doubt what you say when you remark "We all have to choose our own path. The more I practice, the more solitude I find to be necessary." I think it just depends on what one’s path and goal is. As Sukin said: "If there is understanding at this moment, does one feel propelled to *do* anything (with regard to developing sati and panna)? Even if there is confusion and restlessness, it is just that, even this knowledge is good enough for the moment. Certainly we should not be pushed to seek a quiet surrounding with the idea that sati will arise if we could just sit down and watch the breath or something. When one understands, even in theory, about the complexity of conditions and the not-self nature of it, then one does not presume that any particular thing can be done to cause sati to arise." ***** Nina (in her series of translations on ‘Dhamma Issues’ just quoted the following extract which always reminds me of just how very applicable in daily life the development of satipatthana is: Nina: Satipatthåna Sutta (Middle Length Sayings no. 10, in the section on Mindfulness of the Body, dealing with the four kinds of clear comprehension: And further, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practising clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, is a person practising clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension." ***** Frank, I know I’ve quoted more than enough from texts and other posts and yet I’m going to sign off by quoting from an early post of Jon’s (no 460): Jon: "Granted there are many references to solitude and sitting at the roots of trees etc. But a skilful reading of the whole Tripitika shows clearly that the Buddha urged his listeners, both monks and laypeople, to develop the path in the course of the life they were living from day to day. He did not urge them to set aside time from their daily routine for practice, nor did he nominate any special time or place of practice as being prime time for the development of the path. Implicit in the Buddha’s teaching is the potential for awareness at some evel of the reality arising at the present moment, without the need for a particular form of practice. If one understands the teachings in this light, one’s experience is bound to be wholly different from that you have given. And one of the most important differences is the absence of any idea of being able to make awareness arise by undertaking a certain form of practice. It is understanding the conditions for the arising of awareness at a time not of one’s own choosing that is the key to the development of the path." ***** Frank, I apologise if I’ve over-quoted here and I know there are many comments which you won't agree with . Always good to hear your reflections and never any hurry as far as I’m concerned for any response. Metta, Sarah ===== 19225 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana Hi James (& A.Paul at the end), --- "James " wrote: >...... Looking at my thoughts and motivations > with dispassion and mindfulness, I don't see a reason to say more. > I have reached my conclusions about the Abhidhamma, have enumerated > them enough, and anything else would be conceit. In the future, I > will try to keep an eye out for non-Abhidhamma posts and threads and > participate in those. .... Understood and I appreciate your recent sentiments and expressions of restraint and dispassion;-) ..... > Yes, replying to the Star Kids is very difficult because they ask > the most basic questions. I don't reply to their letters right > away, like other posts, so let them know to have patience (something > kids rarely have ;-). ..... Whatever they say, there’s never any hurry as there’s always quite a time lag before I see them and show them posts (which isn’t every week by any means). Of course they'd love to meet you if you visit Hong Kong and they're around. ..... >I have also been enjoying the replies from > the other members like Christine and Kom. I am seeing a side of Kom > I didn't know existed! ;-) ..... I know - some lay it all out in the first post and others keep plenty of wit and profundity up their sleeves;-) Btw, James, do you or anyone else have any Buddhist books (preferably Theravada ones) you can recommend for me to buy for the Star Kids? If they’re easy to order, that would be an advantage as I seldom go shopping. Some read adult books, but still, it has to be appealingly presented for them. That reminds me, another member asked me off-list to recommend a book for a complete beginner as a present. Perhaps I can pass this queery to you and others as well as I don’t have much idea of what’s available apart from the Tipitaka texts themselves. ..... > ps. I smiled about the member who described the Star Kids as > viruses. Ironic because he's right, they are viruses...but so are > we all. ..... Hmmm. Metta, Virus Sarah p.s A.Paul - On the subject of books, Rob M asked us to let you know that he has a Chinese version of Abhidamattha Sangaha for you when we next meet. When you visit the bookshop in Mong Kok, perhaps you could also write down any titles of books that are suitable for children or young teenagers for me too(preferably Theravada). ========== 19226 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentous occasion nr 2 Herman Thanks for posting this and the previous sutta, both of which are relevant to the thread about war and violence. I believe they show that one who is without defilements would not be capable of any unwholesome action through body, speech or mind. Here's another snippet (mentioned in the commentary to the Honeyball Sutta): "Bhikkhus, I do not dispute with the world; rather, it is the world that disputes with me. A proponent of the Dhamma does not dispute with anyone in the world." SN XXII, 94 There is also the well-known Simile of the Saw Sutta, which ends with the passage: "Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you could not endure?" "No, lord." "Then attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw. That will be for your long-term welfare & happiness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn021.html Actually, the beginning part of that sutta (not included in the ATI translation) is also interesting and relevant. It describes how a monk, Phagguna, was "associating so much with bhikkhunis that if any bhikkhu spoke in dispraise of those bhikkhunis in his presence, he would become angry and displeased and would rebuke him". He was admonished to "abandon any desires and any thoughts based on the household life", so that if anyone should speak in dispraise of the bhikkhunis, or should even assault them, or should assault himself, he should train himself to be unaffected by that, to utter no evil words, to dwell without inner hate. MN 21 Jon --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi all, > > It is almost becoming cliche, Herman is posting another sutta link > :-) > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-088.html > > This one is about Punna, who answers the Buddha's questions as to > how > he will handle different levels of violence towards himself (upto > and > including murder). 19227 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 6:01am Subject: The Language of the Heart http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/boowa/straight.html The Language of the Heart The Venerable Acariya Mun taught that all hearts have the same language. No matter what one's language or nationality, the heart has nothing but simple awareness, which is why he said that all hearts have the same language. When a thought arises, we understand it, but when we put it into words, it has to become this or that language, so that we don't really understand one another. The feelings within the heart, though, are the same for everyone. This is why the Dhamma fits the heart perfectly, because the Dhamma isn't any particular language. The Dhamma is the language of the heart. The Dhamma resides with the heart. Pleasure and pain reside with the heart. The acts that create pleasure and pain are thought up by the heart. The heart is what knows the results that appear as pleasure and pain; and the heart is burdened with the outcome of its own thoughts. This is why the heart and the Dhamma fit perfectly. No matter what our language or nationality, we can all understand the Dhamma because the heart and the Dhamma are a natural pair. The heart forms the core within the body. It's the core, the substance, the primary essence within the body. It's the basic foundation. The conditions that arise from the mind, such as thought-formations, appear and vanish, again and again. Here I'm referring to the rippling of the mind. When the mind ripples, that's the formation of a thought. Labels, which deal with conjecturing, memorizing, and recognizing, are termed sañña. 'Long' thoughts are sañña; short thoughts are sankhara. In other words, when a thought forms -- 'blip' -- that's a sankhara. Sañña refers to labeling and recognizing. Viññana refers to the act of taking note when anything external comes and makes contact with the senses, as when visible forms make contact with the eye and cognition results. All of these things are constantly arising and vanishing of their own accord, and so the Buddha called them khandhas. Each 'heap' or 'group' is called a khandha. These five heaps of khandhas are constantly arising and vanishing all the time. Even arahants have these same conditions -- just like ordinary people everywhere -- the only difference being that the arahants' khandhas are khandhas pure and simple, without any defilements giving them orders, making them do this or think that. Instead, their khandhas think out of their own free nature, with nothing forcing them to think this or that, unlike the minds of ordinary people in general. To make a comparison, the khandhas of ordinary people are like prisoners, constantly being ordered about. Their various thoughts, labels, assumptions, and interpretations have something that orders and forces them to appear, making them think, assume, and interpret in this way or that. In other words, they have defilements as their boss, their leader, ordering them to appear. Arahants, however, don't. When a thought forms, it simply forms. Once it forms, it simply disappears. There's no seed to continue it, no seed to weigh the mind down, because there's nothing to force it, unlike the khandhas governed by defilements or under the leadership of defilements. This is where the difference lies. But their basic nature is the same: All the khandhas we have mentioned are inconstant (aniccam). In other words, instability and changeability are a regular part of their nature, beginning with the rupa khandha, our body, and the vedana khandha, feelings of pleasure, pain, and indifference. These things appear and vanish, again and again. Sañña, sankhara, and viññana are also always in a state of appearing and vanishing as a normal part of their nature. But as for actual awareness -- which forms the basis of our knowledge of the various things that arise and vanish -- that doesn't vanish. We can say that the mind can't vanish. We can say that the mind can't arise. A mind that has been purified thus has no more problems concerning the birth and death of the body and the khandhas; and thus there is no more birth here and there, appearing in crude forms such as individuals or as living beings, for those whose minds have been purified. But those whose minds are not purified: They are the ones who take birth and die, setting their sights on cemeteries without end, all because of this undying mind. This is why the Lord Buddha taught the world, and in particular the world of human beings, who know right and wrong, good and evil; who know how to foster the one and remedy the other; who understand the language of the Dhamma he taught. This is why he taught the human world above and beyond the other worlds: so that we could try to remedy the things that are harmful and detrimental, removing them from our thoughts, words, and deeds; try to nourish and foster whatever goodness we might already have, and give rise to whatever goodness we don't yet have. He taught us to foster and develop the goodness we already have so as to nourish the heart, giving it refreshment and well-being, giving it a standard of quality, or goodness, so that when it leaves its present body to head for whatever place or level of being, this mind that has been constantly nourished with goodness will be a good mind. Wherever it fares, it will fare well. Wherever it takes birth, it will be born well. Wherever it lives, it will live well. It will keep on experiencing well-being and happiness until it gains the capacity, the potential, the accumulation of merit it has developed progressively from the past into the present -- in other words, yesterday is today's past, today is tomorrow's past, all of which are days in which we have fostered and developed goodness step by step -- to the point where the mind has the firm strength and ability, from the supporting power of this goodness, that enables it to pass over and gain release. Such a mind has no more birth, not even in the most quiet or refined levels of being that contain any latent traces of conventional reality (sammati) -- namely, birth and death as we currently experience it. Such a mind goes completely beyond all such things. Here I'm referring to the minds of the Buddhas and of the arahants. There's a story about Ven. Vangisa that has a bearing on this. Ven. Vangisa, when he was a layman, was very talented in divining the level of being in which the mind of a dead person was reborn -- no matter who the person was. You couldn't quite say he was a fortuneteller. Actually he was more a master of psychic skills. When anyone died, he would take that person's skull and knock on it -- knock! knock! knock! -- focus his mind, and then know that this person was reborn there, that person was reborn here. If the person was reborn in hell or in heaven, as a common animal or a hungry ghost, he could tell in every case, without any hesitation. All he needed was to knock on the skull. When he heard his friends say that the Buddha was many times more talented than this, he wanted to expand on his knowledge. So he went to the Buddha's presence to ask for further training in this science. When he reached the Buddha, the Buddha gave him the skull of an arahant to knock on. 'All right, see if you can tell where he was reborn.' Ven. Vangisa knocked on the skull and listened. Silence. He knocked again and listened. Silence. He thought for a moment. Silence. He focused his mind. Silence. He couldn't see where the owner of the skull was reborn. At his wit's end, he confessed frankly that he didn't know where the arahant was reborn. At first, Ven. Vangisa had thought himself talented and smart, and had planned to challenge the Buddha before asking for further training. But when he reached the Buddha, the Buddha gave him the skull of an arahant to knock on -- and right there he was stymied. So now he genuinely wanted further training. Once he had further training, he'd really be something special. This being the way things stood, he asked to study with the Buddha. So the Buddha taught him the science, taught him the method -- in other words, the science of the Dhamma. Ven. Vangisa practiced and practiced until finally he attained arahantship. From then on he was no longer interested in knocking on anyone's skull except for his own. Once he had known clearly, that was the end of the matter. This is called 'knocking on the right skull.' Once the Buddha had brought up the topic of the mind that doesn't experience rebirth -- the skull of one whose mind was purified -- no matter how many times Ven. Vangisa knocked on it, he couldn't know where the mind was reborn, even though he had been very talented before, for the place of a pure mind's rebirth cannot be found. The same was true in the case of Ven. Godhika: This story should serve as quite some food for thought. Ven. Godhika went to practice meditation, made progress step by step, but then regressed. They say this happened six times. After the seventh time, he took a razor to slash his throat -- he was so depressed -- but then came to his senses, contemplated the Dhamma, and became an arahant at the last minute. That's the story in brief. When he died, Mara's hordes searched for his spirit. To put it simply, they stirred up a storm, but couldn't tell where he had been reborn. So the Lord Buddha said, 'No matter how much you dig or search or investigate to find the spirit of our son, Godhika, who has completely finished his task, you won't be able to find it -- even if you turn the world upside down -- because such a task lies beyond the scope of conventional reality.' How could they possibly find it? It's beyond the capacity of people with defilements to know the power of an arahant's mind. In the realm of convention, there is no one who can trace the path of an arahant's mind, because an arahant lies beyond convention, even though his is a mind just the same. Think about it: Even our stumbling and crawling mind, when it is continually cleansed without stop, without ceasing, without letting perseverance lag, will gradually become more and more refined until it reaches the limit of refinement. Then the refinement will disappear -- because refinement is a matter of conventional reality -- leaving a nature of solid gold, or solid Dhamma, called a pure mind. We too will then have no more problems, just like the arahants, because our mind will have become a superlative mind, just like the minds of those who have already gained release. All minds of this sort are the same, with no distinction between women and men, which is simply a matter of sex or convention. With the mind, there is no distinction between women and men, and thus both women and men have the same capacity in the area of the Dhamma. Both are capable of attaining the various levels of Dhamma all the way to release. There are no restrictions that can be imposed in this area. All that is needed is that we develop enough ability and potential, and then we can all go beyond. For this reason, we should all make an effort to train our hearts and minds. At the very least, we should get the mind to attain stillness and peace with any of the meditation themes that can lull it into a state of calm, giving rise to peace and well-being within it. For example, mindfulness of breathing, which is one of the primary themes in meditation circles, seems to suit the temperaments of more people than any other theme. But whatever the theme, take it as a governing principle, a refuge, a mainstay for the mind, putting it into practice within your own mind so as to attain rest and peace. When the mind begins to settle down, we will begin to see its essential nature and worth. We will begin to see what the heart is and how it is. In other words, when the mind gathers all of its currents into a single point, as simple awareness within itself, this is what is called the 'mind' (citta). The gathering in of the mind occurs on different levels, corresponding to the mind's ability and to the different stages of its refinement. Even if the mind is still on a crude level, we can nevertheless know it when it gathers inwardly. When the mind becomes more and more refined, we will know its refinement -- 'This mind is refined... This mind is radiant... This mind is extremely still... This mind is something extremely amazing' -- more and more, step by step, this very same mind! In cleansing and training the mind for the sake of stillness; in investigating, probing, and solving the problems of the mind with discernment (pañña) -- which is the way of making the mind progress, or of enabling us to reach the truth of the mind, step by step, through the means already mentioned -- no matter how crude the mind may be, don't worry about it. If we get down to making the effort and persevere continually with what diligence and persistence we have, that crudeness will gradually fade away and vanish. Refinement will gradually appear through our own actions or our own striving until we are able to go beyond and gain release by slashing the defilements to bits. This holds true for all of us, men and women alike. But while we aren't yet able to do so, we shouldn't be anxious. All that is asked is that we make the mind principled so that it can be a refuge and a mainstay for itself. As for this body, we've been relying on it ever since the day we were born. This is something we all can know. We've made it live, lie down, urinate, defecate, work, make a living. We've used it, and it has used us. We order it around, and it orders us around. For instance, we've made it work, and it has made us suffer with aches here and pains there, so that we have to search for medicine to treat it. It's the one that hurts, and it's the one that searches for medicine. It's the one that provides the means. And so we keep supporting each other back and forth in this way. It's hard to tell who is in charge, the body or us. We can order it around part of the time, but it orders us around all the time. Illness, hunger, thirst, sleepiness: These are all nothing but a heap of suffering and stress in which the body orders us around, and orders us from every side. We can order it around only a little bit, so when the time is right for us to give the orders, we should make it meditate. So. Get to work. As long as the body is functioning normally, then no matter how much or how heavy the work, get right to it. But if the body isn't functioning normally, if you're ill, you need to be conscious of what it can take. As for the mind, though, keep up the effort within, unflaggingly, because it's your essential duty. You've depended on the body for a long time. Now that it's wearing down, know that it's wearing down -- which parts still work, which parts no longer work. You're the one in charge and you know it full well, so make whatever compromises you should. But as for the heart, which isn't ill along with the body, it should step up its efforts within, so that it won't lack the benefits it should gain. Make the mind have standards and be principled -- principled in its living, principled in its dying. Wherever it's born, make it have good principles and satisfactory standards. What they call 'merit' (puñña) won't betray your hopes or expectations. It will provide you with satisfactory circumstances at all times, in keeping with the fact that you've accumulated the merit -- the well-being -- that all the world wants and of which no one has enough. In other words, what the world wants is well-being, whatever the sort, and in particular the well-being of the mind that will arise step by step from having done things, such as meditation, which are noble and good. This is the well-being that forms a core or an important essence within the heart. We should strive, then, while the body is still functioning, for when life comes to an end, nothing more can be done. No matter how little or how much we have accomplished, we must stop at that point. We stop our work, put it aside, and then reap its rewards -- there, in the next life. Whatever we should be capable of doing, we do. If we can go beyond or gain release, that's the end of every problem. There will then be nothing to involve us in any turmoil. Here I've been talking about the mind because the mind is the primary issue. That which will make us fare well or badly, meet with pleasure or pain, is nothing else but the mind. As for what they call bad kamma, it lies within the mind that has made it. Whether or not you can remember, these seeds -- which lie within the heart -- can't be prevented from bearing fruit, because they are rooted in the mind. You have to accept your kamma. Don't find fault with it. Once it's done, it's done, so how can you find fault with it? The hand writes and so the hand must erase. You have to accept it like a good sport. This is the way it is with kamma until you can gain release -- which will be the end of the problem. ~meththa ranil 19228 From: James Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James (& A.Paul at the end), > > Btw, James, do you or anyone else have any Buddhist books (preferably > Theravada ones) you can recommend for me to buy for the Star Kids? If > they're easy to order, that would be an advantage as I seldom go shopping. > Some read adult books, but still, it has to be appealingly presented for > them. That reminds me, another member asked me off-list to recommend a > book for a complete beginner as a present. Perhaps I can pass this queery > to you and others as well as I don't have much idea of what's available > apart from the Tipitaka texts themselves. Virus Sarah ;-), I'm afraid there isn't much available for children and young adults concerning Buddhism. It goes from Jataka Tales to the Dali Lama; not much middle ground. That is why, as I wrote to you off-list, I am currently writing a book directed toward children and young adults. It is tentatively titled, "Buddha Smile; Buddhist Inspiration for the Young and Young-At-Heart" It will contain my letters to the Star Kids, some inspirational writings, meditation instructions in simple terms (One technique I call 'Toothpaste Tube Meditation') and various Buddhist stories of inspiration...and everything sprinkled with my wacky sense of humor. Until I finish with that, I could recommend two cartoon books titled 'Zen Speaks' and "Tao Speaks'. They are pretty entertaining in drawing, but the language and concepts are, unfortunately, very adult. Metta, James 19229 From: James Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: The Language of the Heart --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ranil gunawardena" < dearranil@h...> wrote: Hi Ranil, I very much like this post and agree with it. But it is very difficult for most to understand. I wrote a post to Sarah once that stated that she had forgotten what the heart knows. To my surprise, some other members and she thought I had suggested that she had no heart! LOL! Oh well. I am glad that you have posted such a thorough explanation of what I was trying to say at that time. Metta, James 19230 From: fcckuan Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Sarah, you wrote: Frank, I apologise if I've over-quoted here and I know there are many comments which you won't agree with . Always good to hear your reflections and never any hurry as far as I'm concerned for any response. --------------------- Quoting and sutta citation is good, and I agree with most of your comments (with conditions and in some cases in a slightly different context which can mean the difference between nibanna and hell :-). Letting go of attachments to certain types of dhamma practice and shifting of strategy of mindfulness have a proper order, as I understand the suttas, and if certain practices are let go of prematurely, then it can lead to massive suffering. I crave enlightenment. I'm deeply attached to the dhamma, crave and cling deeply to seclusion, developing right concentration in the canonical sense, i.e. JHANAS, cling to virtue, cling to right speech, etc. As long as I have not crossed the ocean of samsara, it is right that I should cling to the raft. It is proper to crave and cling to these things that are conducive to cessation of dukkha until such time they are no longer necessary (i.e. full liberation). The raft should not be abandoned prematurely. Unless we are non-returners, it is quite premature to talk about letting go of clinging to dhamma theory, letting go of right concentration. Craving to every type of object, subtle, gross, wholesome and unwholesome, have to be let go of eventually, but in the right order. Serendipitously, I came across this great passage last night. [m122.3] "Ananda, an [an aspirant determined to attain full liberation] does not shine by delighting in company...by rejoicing in society. Indeed, Ananda, it is not possible that [an aspirant] who ... devotes himself to delight in company, ... will ever obtain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment [i.e. the bliss of right concentration/jhanas]. But it can be expected that when [an aspirant] lives alone, withdrawn from society, he will obtain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the bliss of reunciation, ..., the bliss of enlightenment." ----- This excerpt unequivocally states the necessity of seclusion to properly develop jhanas (i.e. right concentration). And right concentration is necessary to develop the penetrating insight into reality that could lead to full liberation. I frequently see posts here that talk about cheetahs and atomic moments happening in such a way. How do you know that's true? How could you ever verify that without right concentration (um, JHANA!) and witnessing it directly? And even after full enlightenment, I do not recall a single case of an enlightened being in the suttas saying, "now you can stop the practice of seclusion and jhanas." The buddha and arahants always say, "we practice seclusion and jhanas for a pleasant abiding here and now, and also to set a firm example for future generations of cultivators [who might otherwise develop pernicious views of alternate paths to nibbana that do not include jhanas and seclusion]. It's not like 3 out of 4 arahants surveyed recommended continuing the practice of seclusion and jhanas. It's 10 out of 10, 9000 out of 9000. 100%. Every single samma sambuddha and arahant interviewed emphasized the practice of seclusion and jhanas in the pali suttas. Even bodhisattvas on a mahayana path with lots of socializing have to practice seclusion and jhanas. In suttas outlining the practice of the gradual path leading to enlightenment (m107 and m125 to name a couple of examples), you see seclusion and jhanas as integral parts of the gradual training. If you have 7 relay chariots (vissudhimagga) and one of the chariots is missing, you're not going to make it! I have never seen a pali sutta that talked about any other type of path, for example a path that emphasized study of abidhamma theory and mindfulness practice to the neglect of jhanas and seclusion that could lead to full liberation. At least that's my understanding of the pali suttas, and also what my intellect and intuition tell me as well. People of course have different accumlations, different obstacles, and encounter difficulties with certain essential buddhist practices. It might be pragmatic to put difficult practices aside for a short time, or even experiment with creative modifications, as a temporary measure. But if one is set on full liberation, whether monk or layperson, there is no other path (omitting any of the 8 limbs of 8fold path) that can lead to purification of mind and complete destruction of the taints. -fk 19231 From: fcckuan Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling > Jon: "Granted there are many references to solitude and sitting at the > roots of trees etc. But a skilful reading of the whole Tripitika shows > clearly that the Buddha urged his listeners, both monks and laypeople, to > develop the path in the course of the life they were living from day to > day. He did not urge them to set aside time from their daily routine for > practice, nor did he nominate any special time or place of practice as > being prime time for the development of the path. That's because for the serious aspirant, ALL THE TIME is the time to practice the 8fold path, not just a designated time here and there. Now a monk is going to be restricted to one meal a day before midday, but as far as the detailed and regimented instructions for the path to liberation, including the proper way to eat and devote ourselves to wakefulness, specific details abound. For example, in the practice of wakefulness, there is walking meditation, sitting meditation, a specific type of sleeping posture that would be conducive to a dull but conscious state of mind to get fully rested without becoming fully unconsciouss and dream, there is a proper time to wake, resume walking and sitting meditation (1st watch of night, 2nd watch of night, etc, commentaries detail the hour of day). For the layperson, the exact time of a meal would vary, but the proper way to eat remains the same for layperson and monk. Eating should be for nutrition only, to sustain this body, our vehicle to attain liberation. Eating should not be for entertainment, flavor, socializing. Similarly, the 4 nutriments are to be regarded in certain ways as we are performing those actions. We eat as if eating the flesh of... crossing the desert. We regard contact, volition, consciousness nutriments in a certain way. The exact time of day to do this practice of course is not specified. There are specifics outlining RIGHT CONCENTRATION, i.e. lower state has sustained thought, joy and rapture, higher state only has pure equanimity. Cultivators spend anywhere from one hour to 7 days absorbed in RIGHT CONCENTRATION. -fk 19232 From: fcckuan Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Buddha: "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana...the second jhana...the third...the fourth...the sphere of the infinitude of space...the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness...the sphere of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception." -- AN IX.36 19233 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, contemplation and insight Hi Larry, op 28-01-2003 02:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thinking about this some more, I agree vipassana isn't discursive. When > the commentary says, "his mindfulness is established with the thought > 'The body exists.'", this isn't a thought with words but rather an > understanding/experience. Similarly in Way 42 there is a comparison of > the awareness of deportment in animals and the awareness of sati > sampajanna. Sati sampajanna isn't contemplative or philosophical but > mindfulness with understanding, conditioned by careful noticing and > perhaps contemplative reflection. Nina: good reminder Larry, like Kom I can never have enough. Can Kom add something about this careful noticing, as a reminder for us? Nina 19234 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment, some Pali Hi Kom and Larry, here is the Pali of the relevant Tika text: tato eva attasa~n~na.m ``atthi attaa kaarako vedako''ti eva.m pavatta.m vipariitasa~n~na.m na ugghaa.teti naapaneti apa.tipakkhabhaavato, ananabruuhanato vaa. Therefore indeed the perception of self (atta sa~n~naa)ocurs that there is a self who acts or feels, and he does not abolish nor abandon this distorted perception because he does not develop the opposite quality (pa.tipakkha), he does not applies himself to development. eva.m bhuutassa cassa kuto kamma.t.thaanaadibhaavoti aaha ``kamma.t.thaana.m vaa satipa.t.thaanabhaavanaa vaa na hotii''ti. indeed, how can there for such a person be the development of a meditation subject, and therefore he said: there is no development of a meditation subject nor of satipatthana. ( I had trouble with: eva.m bhuutassa cassa kuto, kuto is how or from where. cassa is ca assa.) Now the meaning of opposite quality: we have to go back to the Way 25: two kinds of abandoning: by suppression (in samatha), vikkhambhana vinaya and the eradication by developing the opposites, tada"nga vinaya: this is the development of insight. Thus that is referred to here, I think, by pa.tipakkha: the development of the perception of impermanence to eradicate the wrong view of permanence, etc. op 28-01-2003 17:20 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > >> Way 42: [T] From the sort of mere awareness >> denoted by reference to >> canines and the like, proceeds the idea of a >> soul, the perverted >> perception, with the belief that there is a doer >> and an experiencer. One >> who does not uproot or remove that wrong >> perception owing to >> non-opposition to that perception and to absence >> of contemplative >> practice cannot be called one who develops >> anything like a subject of >> meditation. >> > > What is meant by "non-opposition to that perception" and > "contemplative practice"? 19235 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Ha Herman, Hoe gaat het met je? See below. op 26-01-2003 04:03 schreef Egberdina op hhofman@t...: >> Nina: Life is only one moment of experiencing an object. Life is > seeing, or >> hearing, etc. > I wonder why it is OK in Buddhism to have the separation of what is > essentially a unity / oneness into experience (verb), the object > (noun) of experience, the flavour of the object (adverb, adjective) > but on no account can there be a subject (pronoun)? N: This is a difficult question for me. Subject and object are loaded terms and if I would use them, I might twist the meaning that you intended, because I am not trained in philosophy. On the other hand, when we consider that which can be directly experienced, we can use any names, it does not matter how we call phenomena. Seeing is an experience, it experiences an object, visible object or colour. We can use of course the terms subject experiences object, but we have to be careful. An experience, such as seeing can be known by another experience. That is why I would avoid the word subject. You speak about a unity, and certainly what is experienced, the object, conditions the experience by way of object condition. Phenomena are different but they are related to each other in as far as they are conditions for each other. To give an example: visible object conditions seeing by being an object, but it is totally different from seeing. Visible object does not know at all that seeing experiences it. Eyesense is another conditions for seeing. Eyesense does not see, it does not experience anything, it merely is the physical base and doorway for seeing. Mind and body are a unity in as far as they condition one another, but they are not the same. H: Surely the distinction between verb, noun, adjective, adverb and > pronoun is conceptual and non-self. (snipped) > > It is considered to be a stage of insight to be able to differentiate > between nama and rupa. But why wouldn't it be a stage of insight to > realise that the particular nama/rupa (which really is one, not two) > is only happening to the subject? "I see blue" incorporates the > awareness that there are also other things happening (the precise > nature of which is unknown but including other subjects who are aware > thusly "I see yellow" "I smell a rose fragrance" etc etc.) N: Certainly, a lot of things are happening! But you know, every phenomenon is very momentary. We can use the words subject and object but let us not forget that they are so momentary. Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, they just happen in a moment. That is why a lot of things happen in split seconds. After seeing, thinking arises that thinks of "I see blue". But this has a characteristic different from seeing. Each phenomenon has its own characteristic and it shows this characteristic. These characteristics do not change. Seeing only experiences colour, it is not angry, it is not attached. Anger and attachment are qualities that can accompany other moments of cognition. As A. Sujin stressed: the dhamma is so useful, it teaches us to develop our own understanding. We do not have to believe someone else, or even the scriptures. We read that the five khandhas are non-self, but if we keep on reasoning about this truth, it will not help us much. We should try to find out the reason why it is so difficult for us to see the truth directly, what is in the way? Personality belief (sakkaya ditthi). We can define this, explain this, but it does not help sufficiently. We have to find out for ourselves what it is when it arises. As Azita said, lobha is so very subtle. When we are thinking about different things, when we go about in daily life, perform different actions, is there a subtle clinging to the idea of "I do this"? Or, "this is my opinion"? I find more and more that we have to be very honest, and that there are so many things in life we can discover, little by little. I also think of patience to slowly consider what we learn, to let it sink in, as I wrote before. I should myself consider more that patience is the highest ascetism, as the Buddha explained in the exhortation to the Patimokkha. Deprivation of food and sleep may be easier than patience to really listen to the Dhamma, consider it slowly, let it sink in and apply it by mindfulness of different characteristics. I like to quote again what Jon wrote, because this time something else strikes me here as a reminder for myself, the contrast between intellectual knowledge and direct understanding : <- repeated listening to/reading of the actual teachings (the Tipitaka) and their commentaries, - reflecting on what has been heard or studied and - applying what has been understood from the listening and reflecting. To many people this sounds like a purely intellectual exercise, but properly understood it is much more than that. It is or can be a condition for a better understanding of the presently arising reality. I think part of the reason for the scepticism that many have about this is that there's no immediate and direct 'result'. The results come in their own good time. The accumulation of understanding is very gradual and subtle and is absolutely not self (as in the adze-handle simile).> This is important: it is not a purely intellectual exercise. That is why A. Sujin stressed: no words are needed. Learn characteristics that appear. And the result: it comes in its own good time. We have to think of the chicks who are in the eggshell of ignorance and craving. Courage is needed to go on developing understanding. H: It is said the Buddha and others possessed of higher powers > could "read" the mind of others. Surely they would be able to > distinguish between the mind of the other and their own mind. To be > able to describe this situation don't you need pronouns (which do not > require the idea of self)? N: No need of any word, it was higher, direct knowledge. The Buddha did not need any words to attain Buddhahood. Herman, I do not know whether all this is of any help to you, I just tried as much as I was able to. I think Howard can add a few things about subject and object. Lodewijk thanks you for your kind greetings. He said to tell you that he is still struggling with Bach's Wohltemperiertes Klavier, All the best, also for your family, Nina. 19236 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: akusala citta, akusala kamma Dear Htoo, Thank you for your posts. I like the way you end them, with a good wish and some advice. See below op 27-01-2003 17:37 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, >> nina van gorkom wrote: >> Intimation through body and speech. no 2 >> We are inclined to take intimation as belonging to self, but bodily >> intimation is only a kind of rúpa, originated by citta. > So,if citta is Akusala it will cause Akusala Kamma.If Kusala,Kusala > Kamma.If Abyakata there will be no more Kamma.Kiriyacittas(Abyakata) > are Javanacittas of Arahats and they won't give rise to any Kamma. N: Not every akusala cittamotivates akusala kamma, certain factors are needed so that it will be akusala kamma that can cause akusala vipaka. If we like our food or laugh, there is no akusala kamma. We just discussed this again with A. Sujin. If we would think that laughing brings an unpleasant result, how unnatural our life would be. It could cause lots of scruples to people. Also when waving cheerfully, there need not be wrong view all the time. It can be with lobha but without wrong view , or with metta. But as you say, the gestures depend on cittas. One more point. Sometimes, but not always, the bodily intimation can be a doorway of kamma. You will read this in my translation later on. Someone gives an order to kill by gesture. See Atthasalini. H: If we wave people we know well with cheerful mind,the javanacittas > happening at that time will be ''Somanassa sahagatan ditthigata- > sampayottakanan asankharika cittas'' that is The Mind State that has > cheerfulness(Piti),misbelieving(ditthi)(actual dhamma are thought as > people,man,woman)along with Moha,Lobha,Ahirika,Anuttappa,Udicca and > 13 other Cetasikas. > > The gestures depend on Cittas.I hope it will clerify your queries. 19237 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas and insight op 27-01-2003 17:10 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: >> when >> our eyes are open it seems that it is light all the time. In > reality there >> is light only when seeing, and not at all the other moments. Seeing > is >> interrupted by many cittas arising in different processes. N: Of course I agree with the different objects experienced through the relevant doorways. Mybe I was not clear enough. The above is merely an illustration that we are so ignorant of what is really happening. A way to check ourselves. Nina 19238 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing Hi Kom and Larry, op 27-01-2003 07:04 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: >> From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] >> Way 41: In this section on breathing, the >> mindfulness which examines the >> respirations is the Truth of Suffering. The >> pre-craving which brings >> about that mindfulness is the Truth of >> Origination. Kom: 1) Mindfulness is the truth of suffering because it too is > anicca, dukkha, and anatta. > 2) The pre-craving that brings about the mindfulness. This > is very interesting. For samatha development, this could be > a craving for peacefulness (of concentration / jhana) or for > higher existence, and for insight, the craving for the > insights / feelings associated with insights / results of > insights (attainment). Nina: As I wrote precraving is former craving, purima tanha. Can we say: we are born because there is still craving. Thus, this former craving, stemming also from the past lives, conditions our whole life now which is dukkha, and thus also mindfulness is dukkha. But there is a way to its cessation. I would like to hear Num also. Nina. 19239 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:20am Subject: (2)1.Cetasikas As Designers Or Helper Dear Dhamma Friends, Everybody has one and the only one mind(from science point of view).Actually mind has as army of soldiers(mental factors) led by the general(Citta) or the king or the leader.When citta works like a king,accompanying cetasikas work as ministers.Ministers advise the king and the king does all the action.So,for everything,the king is responsible. There are four sets of ministers. 1.Permanent ministers(Sabbacittasadarana Cetasikas) 2.Flexible ministers(Pakinnaka Cetasikas) 3.Destructive ministers(Akusala Cetasikas) 4.Constructive ministers(Kusala Cetasikas) Cetasika cannot perceive senses,which is function of citta.But their accompaniment makes the citta different names.So they can be conferred designers.Cetasikas help citta,advise citta,drive citta and do have many effects on citta.But citta behaves itself and always leads all the mental bodies. May you all have a clearer view on Cetasikas. Htoo Naing 19240 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 0:05pm Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Dharam and all, Please be at ease Dharam - I don't think you are judging anyone or recommending any course of action. I think you use writing to reflect upon and clarify your own thoughts - as do a number of us on this list. My previous discussion was about real actions being taken by some of us, regarding the real situations we are faced with in the moment to moment course of our lives. These come complete with personal and legal responsibilities, as well as with the limitations imposed by the small size of our financial resources and disposable income. When I am having to choose between, say, paying veterinary bills for Rusty, keeping a roof our heads, and replacing my ten year old car because I drive on rural roads at night (no luxury like public transport in my area) - I cannot afford to 'just jump on a plane' for a 2400 kilometre round trip to see my Parliamentary Representative. Perhaps incomes are greater, and air travel less expensive in America? I need to decide what action will be most effective and what action will be least harmful. (Impulsive action would bring penalties from my employer, and I need a job to live in this world. But most of all, travelling to Canberra would not be effective action, as my electorate is held by a Member of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, not by a member of the Governing Party). I am working within what is possible in a real situation. The hypothetical scenario you create is unreal and will not arise in this country in the forseeable future. As well, you seem to be projecting your own ideas of how others must be feeling and what their motives, intentions and shortcomings must be. Such surmising is all 'just thinking'... though a satisfying pastime, without doubt. I understand your words to be a variation of 'an unexamined life is not worth living'. If so, I agree. It is good for everyone to look at their *own* behaviour and see how closely they are living up to the guiding principles, the Teachings, that inform their ethical and spiritual life. One can only examine one's own mind and the actions that proceed from it, one cannot know the citta of another. Have you tried any initiative with respect to world peace that has proven more possible and effective than letter writing, telephone calls to decison makers, attendance at rallies and marches, and financial contributions to those organisations judged as effectively working for peace or assisting refugees? I would be very interested to hear about your own compassion-in-action, as opposed to armchair action and intellectual musings (articulate and enjoyable as they are). Unless you are a proponent of quietism, I am sure I could learn much from hearing of the practical application of your own spiritual beliefs in daily life. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342 " wrote: 19241 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 0:31pm Subject: Sanna, citta, panna was ..vs. Scientific View (a big post) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing < > > Dear KC,Larry and Dhamma, > Now I pull the old thread.What I would like to add is that sanna > cannot perceive as well.It is Citta who perceive fully > everything.Sati,Sanna,vedana and all other cetasikas cannot perceive > and perception is not their function. > > _________________ Dear Htoo, I add some more; The visuddhimagga Xiv3 "for though the state of knowing (janana-bhava) is equally presnt in perception(sanna), nevertheless perception is the mere perceiving of an object as , say, blue or yeelow; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristic as impermanent, painful and not-self (xiv3 ) "consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manisfestation of the path. Understanding (panna) knows the object in the way stated, and it brings about by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path." Very hard to really understand directly because these realities all arise together. No matter how much effort is applied if it is done with sakkya-ditthi it cannot know: In the quote from the visuddhimagga we see that citta(without panna) can know the characteristic of dhammas, it can perceive subtle feelings colours, sounds, hardness, heat - but if panna is not present one may be still developing the wrong path. Vis. Xiv6 " [the] difference is consequently subtle and hard to see. Hence the venerable nagasena said: "A difficult thing O king has been done by the Blessed one….the defining of the immaterial states of consciousness and its concomitants, which occur with a single object, and which he declared thus: this is contact, this is feeling , this is perception, this is volition, this is consciousness "(milinda panha 87) RobertK 19242 From: Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Hi, Nina (and Herman) - In a message dated 1/29/03 1:18:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N: No need of any word, it was higher, direct knowledge. The Buddha did not > need any words to attain Buddhahood. > Herman, I do not know whether all this is of any help to you, I just tried > as much as I was able to. I think Howard can add a few things about subject > and object. > =========================== I doubt there is much of value that I can add. I think our language is limited. A subject-object experiential event, for example an act of seeing, is, to my mind a single event with two polar aspects which, for lack of better terminology, we call "subjective" and "objective". With seeing for example, we unfortunately use the same word 'seeing' both for the entire event, and for its subjective aspect. The entire event is a seeing-seen unity for which we have no separate term. When we reify the subjective pole, we are "selfing" in the sense of taking that aspect of the event and making an agent out of it. When we reify the objective pole, we are "selfing: in the sense of making a "thing" out of the objective pole. These are my thoughts on the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19243 From: James Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:12pm Subject: Re: Chinese New Year!~ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Hi James, > > Thanks...hehe of course Im not related to J.Lo, I sure > wish I was! Haha...Thats nice, sounds really > interesting to me! Orange! I love oranges!!! =) Yes, > Im sure its a reminder to eat healthy..hehe > > I am a horse and it does fit me too. Because I run > really fast..I just had a basketball game this > morning and my school won the other school 30-8. Our > basketball teams is very aggresive. My Astrological > sign is Virgo, Im not quite sure if it fits me or > not. =P > > Buddhist idea is sure really complicated to understand > but I still understand it. I have heard alot of > reincarnation stories from my teacher at school > these couple of weeks because we are learning about > India. Sounds scary to me but Its very interesting. > Do you have any stories of reincarnation or the > Buddhist idea of rebirth? > > What else does a Buddhist do to celebrate Chinese New > Year?? > > Well, Happy New Year to you too! Take care, thanks. > OrAnGeS!!! I love eating oranges! I'll eat really > healthy during Chinese New Year!~ [if i can!] > > Love, JoJo Hi Star Kid JoJo! I am glad that you are going to eat healthy in the New Year...if you can. It is also wise that you added 'if you can' because it is often hard to do what we intend isn't it? So many people, on all sides of us, will try to drag us down or to make us do things that we shouldn't do. This interference can be as simple as not eating oranges or as complicated as war. This leads me to the question that you ask: Do you have any stories of reincarnation or the Buddhist idea of rebirth? JoJo, there are many stories that the Buddha told about learning from past lives and how past lives affect your current life. And they are all very helpful. But I am going to tell you about another type of rebirth. There is a rebirth that is possible in this very life. There is a way to change and grow as a person, to be reborn, and it doesn't require dying first. Lately I have been thinking a lot about war, as the world may very soon get into another war, and I have been thinking about how war affects those who are innocent; especially how war affects children. And thinking of this, I have a story to tell you about rebirth. During WWII, Nazi Germany took many innocent people, mainly Jewish people, and locked them up into prisons called concentration camps. The Nazi people treated these people very badly because they thought they weren't human. They starved them, tortured them, and killed them...by the millions. There were a lot of children in these camps. One little boy, named Pavel Friedman, 11-years-old, was in a concentration camp named Terezin in 1942 when he wrote this poem: "The Butterfly" The last, the very last, So richly, brightly, dazzlingly yellow. Perhaps if the sun's tears would sing against a white stone. . . . Such, such a yellow Is carried lightly 'way up high. It went away I'm sure because it wished to kiss the world good-bye. For seven weeks I've lived in here, Penned up inside this ghetto. But I have found what I love here. The dandelions call to me And the white chestnut branches in the court. Only I never saw another butterfly. That butterfly was the last one. Butterflies don't live in here, in the ghetto. You see JoJo, even though Pavel had been locked up in a horrible place, and was treated in a horrible way, he did not let that get him down. He became reborn, like the butterfly that flew away, and he saw the beauty around him. This is the most important type of rebirth. Each day that we wake up is a chance to be a better person than the day before. It is a chance to escape whatever ugliness is around us and to see only the beauty. Pavel died two years after he wrote this poem in another concentration camp called Aushchwitz. JoJo, I hope that each day you will fly high in the air, just like a butterfly, and be reborn. Love, James 19244 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana - books > Btw, James, do you or anyone else have any Buddhist books (preferably > Theravada ones) you can recommend for me to buy for the Star Kids? If > they're easy to order, that would be an advantage as I seldom go shopping. > Some read adult books, but still, it has to be appealingly presented for > them. That reminds me, another member asked me off-list to recommend a > book for a complete beginner as a present. Perhaps I can pass this queery > to you and others as well as I don't have much idea of what's available > apart from the Tipitaka texts themselves. > ..... > > ps. I smiled about the member who described the Star Kids as > > viruses. Ironic because he's right, they are viruses...but so are > > we all. > ..... > Hmmm. > > Metta, > > Virus Sarah Pariyatti has a children's section. http://www.pariyatti.com/catalog.phtml?sort=subselect&subject=Children&sid=4 . One book I have seen is "The life of the Buddha" it is an illustrated book that is drawn from Burmese manuscripts. It has wonderful illustrations. One good book, more for adults, I have found is Thich Nhat Hanh's book Old Path White Clouds, again it is about the life of the Buddha. It is drawn from Pali sources, though there is a bit of the Hanh overlay. It is very approachable with pretty good notes. For books about general Buddhism, covering many schools, there is Entering the Stream, it can be found on Amazon and of course What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula would be a great introduction to Theravada. Ray 19245 From: david_wheeler58 Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana Hi Sarah There is a place here in Boston that sells Buddhist books for children. I have not been in touch with them for a while, but I'll try and dig them up again. Metta, Dave " perhaps you could also > write down any titles of books that are suitable for children or young > teenagers for me too(preferably Theravada)." 19246 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Hi Larry & Nina, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > In order to uproot the idea of a soul or person, > one must be mindful of > the reality of body, feeling, mind, and dhamma > when they arise in > experience and contemplate their characteristics > of impermanence, > suffering, and not self. Experiencing these > characteristics in these > objects is the actual uprooting. What would you say? > I would agree with you here as it matches exactly with opposition to that perception (that dhammas are permanent, sukha, and atta), but I am nagged by the word "contemplative practice": does this mean satipatthana or something else? Nina, thank you very much for adding more notes from Tika which clarifies but also adds more questions for me: there is no development of a meditation subject. Satipatthana is developed, but what is the development of meditation subject? Does it refer to samatha or vipassana here? kom 19247 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, contemplation and insight Hi Nina & Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > > sampajanna. Sati sampajanna isn't contemplative > or philosophical but > > mindfulness with understanding, conditioned by > careful noticing and > > perhaps contemplative reflection. > Nina: good reminder Larry, like Kom I can never > have enough. Can Kom add > something about this careful noticing, as a > reminder for us? > Nina > If somebody tells me that I should be noticing the dhammas that are arising carefully, what I immediately think of is, who's doing the careful noticing? The "self" that notices would be (in realities) tanha, mana, and ditthi. If one of these is noticing the dhamma, then it is not satipatthana that is arising, but it is the dhamma, if misunderstood, could condition wrong views (that it is satipatthana). The self is immensely subtle: if we don't understand (really understand) that the Buddha's path is about detachment all the way, we might be misled by these ever more subtle kilesa. Panna is accumulated. When there is enough accumulation, it does its own thing properly. No need to be extra careful (except in not misleading oneself). The Buddha's compares the development of insights to wearing away the knife's handle. It is gradual, and hardly noticeable. When you goes for the accelerated schedule theory, or the big-bang theory, the task at hand is already being neglected. We should firmly remember the conditions of panna: sitting near the true friend, hearing the true dhamma, wise consideration, and follow the teachings the best we can. kom 19248 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma,Perceiving it & Realisation Dear Htoo (& Suan), I’m really appreciating your comments and posts though I understand that for others that the Abhidhamma details are an acquired or not to be acquired taste;-) Like various delicacies at a buffet, we need to pick and choose those that don’t give us indigestion;-) I have several of your posts before me which I’ve following as you send them. Sometimes I think there is a little difference in understanding and then I find it is just a matter of terminology. I’ve found much of the detail very helpful. Let me just raise a few points in no special order to clarify: --- "htootintnaing " wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Dhamma is Dhamma.All the dhamma can be perceptible. > > All the dhamma means all the possible things perceptible through the > watching windows of Six,including Pancadavara and Manodavara(mind- > eye). ..... I believe that when you say “All the dhamma can be perceptible” you are referring to the role of citta which experiences or cognizes all phenomena - both realities and concepts (pannatti). I agree with your other comments about citta being the ‘chief’ in experiencing an object. We can read a lot about this in the Atthasalini (Expositor). In another post you mentioned to someone that sa~n~na doesn’t perceive and that this is the role of citta. I think this may be a matter of terminology. Usually sanna is translated as perception or memory/remembrance, so it can lead to confusion if the term is used for citta, I think. I agree these may be misleading terms to us and in an earlier post, Suan made just your point and many more interesting ones in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages/17264 I always meant to reply to it. One comment Suan made in this post was that to use perception for citta is “in line with the use of the term “perception” in the textbooks on psychology”. Now I was trained in psychology but I think there is little in common between the term as used there and the role of citta, so I prefer not to try to equate them. I’m also not sure I agree any more with Suan’s use of ‘memory’ as a translation for sanna (it certainly doesn’t equate with ‘memory’ in psychological use), though I appreciate his points about the use of memory in the chapter in Pali grammar, he mentions. In Abhidhamma, realities like sanna have very specific functions, manifestations and so on. Any terms are bound to be misleading. I did agree with Suan’s ‘mind or consciousness’ for citta rather than ‘thought’ which as he explained is very misleading. Generally, I just use common translations because at least people then know what Pali term is being referred to, though I understand that for Pali scholars like Suan, this is not a satisfactory solution. When you say “All the dhamma can be perceptible”, I believe you therefore mean that all dhammas are experienced (by cittas through 6 doorways (‘watching windows’), including pannatti. At first I misunderstood your post to mean ‘can be kown’, in which case, ‘dhammas’ would not include pannatti (concepts). This is later clarified in your post to James (19093). I found your posts on rupas very helpful and I hope Rob M (an Abhidhamma teacher in Malaysia) is following your posts on vithicitta (processes). You gave some useful comments here on ekaggata cetasika (concentration): Htoo: “Concentration is just a lay term.Everyone can concentrate in some ways.The dog concentrates at its food.The monkey concentrates at bananas wherever.Erotically active people concentrate on their interests.Terrorists concentrate at their attack points.Thieves concentrate on the disappearance of the owners.Manslaughters concentrate the weakest points at men and concentrate at these points. From Abhidhamma point of view,whenever citta occurs,Ekagatta occurs.BUT Ekagatta in different people and even in a person in different cittas behaves differently in terms of power,purity and strength even though its function is to fix at a point.” ***** I think you’re helping to clear up many points raised directly or indirectly and I’ll be delighted if you sweep through the archives doing this;-) ‘Dhammas’ can have different meanings in different contexts. In the post I started off replying to, when you said “All the dhamma can be perceptible”, you were referring to realities and concepts. In your ‘Anicca and Dhamma’ post, when you say “All the Dhammas are subjected to happening (Arising and wearing away)”, you make it clear that you are not referring to pannatti (concepts) here, just as the Buddha didn’t. You clearly say “As all the things are Anicca, they cannot be managed with chosen directions; so they will go on their own ways. So all the things are Anatta (Non-self)”. I like the way you explain this, but at the end of the same post (19190), you say “Fix firmly in mind, “Anicca” “Anicca” “Anicca”. In another post you also say “One can sense the existence of one’s citta” and some other comment which prompted KKT to question whether it was possible to ‘control’ the mind after all. I think these were the kind of comments Sukin was picking up on as well. Perhaps you are just referring to the role of panna, understanding?? When you also say in the ‘anicca’ post that “if one can always contemplate all the dhammas as Anicca or Dukkha or anatta firmly in his mind, there will be no attachment to them”, I’d respectfully suggest that it’s impossible to ‘always contemplate...’ and surely the aim is to begin to understand realities, step by step, not just to think about characteristics which are not yet known?? I was also going to mention about the ‘waving’ and how surely it’s not always with ditthi. I see now that Nina has picked up this point too. I’m glad to read your extra comments on the passages she is translating. You may not have been around on DSG when she started this series at the request of a few members. It is a series of rather complex points that have been raised at the meetings of a group of teachers (at the Foundtion where A.Sujin is based) in Bangkok in Thai. Nina was asked to translate these into English. Finally, I’m looking at a letter you wrote to Herman. I really like the way you stress “ Jhana take mostly Pannatta-arammana. Pannatta does not happen, it is not a real existence, it has no lifespan. That is arammana.” I like it because it is hard for many people to appreciate that pannatti are not real and don’t have a lifespan. You continue to explain how cittas in jhana are the same without interruption which lead some mistakenly to take them for being permanent “(Nicca-someone like Bhaka-Brahma)”. Thank you again for so many helpful posts and details, Htoo. As I said, I personally found the way you set out the rupas and other dhammas helpful and I also like the way you set out the ‘requirements’ for different experiences such as seeing, hearing etc to occur. Pls let me know if I’ve misunderstood any of your comments or if you ever find any mistakes in any of my posts. I’m always happy to make corrections;-) Anumodana, Sarah ====== 19249 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:32am Subject: Photo of Rusty Dear Starkids, and All, A photo of Rusty has been uploaded to: http://tinyurl.com/4wyv metta, Christine 19250 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:39am Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Dharam, May you be bathed in a moderate amount of water. I have read that Arahants don't laugh, but you can smile just a little, no? :-) Herman 19251 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:15am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Frank, A little light heartedness here. I hope that's OK. > > It's not like 3 out of 4 arahants surveyed recommended continuing > the practice of seclusion and jhanas. It's 10 out of 10, 9000 out of > 9000. 100%. My reading of the suttas put all sample sizes at 500. This was the standard number of folks that attended gatherings, became sotapannas that day and so forth. All the best Herman PS I do agree with you, but that is neither here nor there. 19252 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Dear Stephen, You wrote a couple of posts about two weeks ago or more on the Descriptive vs Prescriptive thread (to Rob K), which I’ve been meaning to come in on. I hope you’re still around;-) I think you raised a number of good points and I appreciated your very sincere concerns about conditions and determinism. You said “If our intentions weren’t conditioned (=caused) they would be random, something that merely *happens*. But if they’re determined then they’re not free; that’s the meaning of the word.” Of course no phenomena that arise and pass away are ‘free’. Nothing can arise which is independent of many factors and conditions (not talking about nibbana). So certainly all phenomena are conditioned. If one then says, as philosophers would, that therefore all phenomena are determined or pre-determined, there may be connotations of either a) God’s or someone’s *will* or b) therefore any development or wise action is quite useless because it won’t make any difference anyway. If we just say as you do later that your definition of determinism is “no choice, everything that happens is a result of causes over which we have no control” , it’s OK if you find it helpful. There is no self to have any control, everything does happen as a result of causes, as shown in the puppet similes that Rob gave, and which some find disturbing, I know. You go on to say that “consequently there’s no religious life, no kamma. The very definition, also, of what it means to be inauthentic.” I think this is a good example of why the term ‘determinism’ does not apply to the Buddhist Teachings. I think you are perhaps equating a narrower philosphical use of the term which misses a couple of vital ingredients. Those ingredients, imho, are a)understanding of anatta and b) the development of panna and other wholesome qualities. These are different from mere thinking. It’s hard for me to explain (a cop-out I hear you saying), but all I can say is that I think that as a little direct understanding develops, what seemed like ‘issues’ fall away and become irrelevant. For example, if there is understanding of the characteristic of thinking when it arises, different from the concepts about ‘freewill’, ‘conditioned’ and ‘determinism’, the nature of thinking is understood more clearly and the pannatti (concepts) are known to be imaginary, i.e not potential objects of mindfulness. I used to have just the same kind of questions as you. However, I think that with a little more knowledge and a little more awareness, the realities are known as (conditioned) phenomena and there are fewer and fewer conditions for long stories about the implications or what this means for the future or how it is the end of freedom, for example. We can test at this moment (or panna can test) whether there is a religious life, whether there is kamma and vipaka, whether actions do bring results. Understanding more about conditions is not discouraging. Only thinking about it without any understanding is discouraging. We can also see how tenaciously there is clinging to an idea of ‘self’. How much we would like to introduce an element of ‘free choice’ and give it a non-self label;-) You also mentioned that ‘hardness’ is as much a concept as ‘people’. if we talk about hardness now, we’re talking about the concept. But regardless of whether there is any knowing of it or not, pathavi (hardness/softness) is directly experienced through the body -sense when we are sitting on a chair or touching the key-board. Panna can know it has its particular characteristic. On the other hand when we touch a person or look at someone, there is only hardness or visible object experienced. ‘Person’ can only ever be a concept. You referred to KKT’s ‘banned quote’ and said “people aren’t real so don’t worry about how you treat them”. This is like the ‘determinism’ line - it’ll all happen the same anyway, so it doesn’t matter whether any good acts are performed. These are just kinds of thinking with wrong views attached. Understanding that ‘people’ are concepts doesn’t mean less metta and so forth. Understanding phenomena are conditioned doesn’t mean less development of wholesome states. Quite the contrary. I know that these are quite difficult points and can be real stumbling blocks. I’ll gladly continue discussing these issues because I think they’re really essential. I know these answers are not adequate. In another post you gave the *insanity plea* for wrecking the garage. As your quote from Phra Payutto showed, this would be serious wrong view ”passively lying around waiting for the fruits of their kamma to come knocking and determine their future.....”. For one thing, there is, I believe, an underlying idea of self in these comments. I agree that it’s always possible to misunderstand anything said by anyone here as well, according to whatever views are held dear. You mention that “someone who felt that they were a robot or puppet would be literally insane” and that “someone who thought that they couldn’t do anything, had no control over anything, that planning and improving were myths would be completely dysfunctional....”. It does depend on our ideas of insanity. I agree with you and as others have gone to lengths to point out, there is nothing wrong with conventionally ‘taking control’ of one’s life and so on. Not receiving treatment when one is sick, not recommending psychiatric assistance (as most definitely was recommended and taken by the person I think you referred to), not being careful to avoid wrecking the garage and so on would be totally irresponsible. As a teacher/psychologist, if I recommended the kids to sit back and forget about school and homework, I’d be soon laughed out of town. Understanding more about anatta does not mean any less conventional responsibility. I’d suggest the opposite actually. It's rather like coming in a full circle and appreciating just how ordinary life is and how one can continue living in the 'rat-race' just as others do. The outer appearances need not be any different. Perhaps more 'airy-fairy' ideals are more associated with 'control' and 'special times and places' don't you think? That's how it used to be for me, anyway. However, ultimately, as the Buddha stressed, the madness that we wordlings live in is the not understanding phenomena as elements, as namas and rupas which are anatta. The madness is in taking the people, the self, the garage, the situations we find ourselves in to be Ultimate Truths when really, they are only Conventional Truths. So walking out amongst the trees, working with autistic children can be done, to all outer appearances, in just the same way, whether there are any glimmers of this kind of madness or not. Only panna will know and life will continue just the same, but with less delusion. I’ll be particularly glad to hear any further comments, Stephen. Metta, Sarah p.s I have another note of yours in front of me to Chris about what a Buddhist is. Sometime in the 70s I was asked to give a talk on this by Ven Saddhatissa and then write something for a booklet. I’ll see if I can fish it out for you sometime...I definitely didn’t conclude in the same way as the article you referred to;-)) ======================================================== 19253 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentous occasion nr 2 Jon, Thank you for your comments. I do understand the general thrust of the suttas to be in accordance with what you are saying. I do have to admit that it is more than a bit of a stumbling block for me. I remember Robert K posting a jataka story quite some time ago about some negative karmic result accruing to the Buddha in one of his lives, because he reacted with aversion when his kids copped a beating from their new carer as he renounced them yet again(he had a bit of a habit of doing that). Thinking about that again still raises the temperature of my blood (when it bubbles, does that mean it is boiling :-)?. If I were able to react without aversion in the scenarios you quoted or the one above, I will have proved to myself that I was already mentally dead, and whether the body would live on for another million years or two seconds would be immaterial. A long time ago I was prescribed anti-depressants. The moment they kicked in I stopped using them, as I could no longer feel. It was for me far more preferable to feel all that comes with feeling suicidal than not to be able to feel at all. Wishing you well Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > Thanks for posting this and the previous sutta, both of which are > relevant to the thread about war and violence. I believe they show > that one who is without defilements would not be capable of any > unwholesome action through body, speech or mind. > > Here's another snippet (mentioned in the commentary to the Honeyball > Sutta): > "Bhikkhus, I do not dispute with the world; rather, it is the world > that disputes with me. A proponent of the Dhamma does not dispute > with anyone in the world." > SN XXII, 94 > > There is also the well-known Simile of the Saw Sutta, which ends with > the passage: > "Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, > with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered > even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should > train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no > evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and > with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an > awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will > keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued > with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from > hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train > yourselves. > "Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of > the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you > could not endure?" > "No, lord." > "Then attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw. > That will be for your long-term welfare & happiness." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn021.html > > Actually, the beginning part of that sutta (not included in the ATI > translation) is also interesting and relevant. It describes how a > monk, Phagguna, was "associating so much with bhikkhunis that if any > bhikkhu spoke in dispraise of those bhikkhunis in his presence, he > would become angry and displeased and would rebuke him". He was > admonished to "abandon any desires and any thoughts based on the > household life", so that if anyone should speak in dispraise of the > bhikkhunis, or should even assault them, or should assault himself, > he should train himself to be unaffected by that, to utter no evil > words, to dwell without inner hate. > MN 21 > > Jon 19254 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Language of the Heart Dear James, I liked the post too. There are 12 more posts in the URL I sent in the mail. Wonderfull"y" same... ~muditha ranil >I very much like this post and agree with it. But it is very difficult >for most to understand. I wrote a post to Sarah once that stated that >she had forgotten what the heart knows. To my surprise, some other >members and she thought I had suggested that she had no heart! LOL! Oh >well. I am glad that you have posted such a thorough explanation of >what I was trying to say at that time. 19255 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Photo of Rusty Hi Chris, --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Starkids, and All, > > A photo of Rusty has been uploaded to: > http://tinyurl.com/4wyv ..... ........and now Kom needn't worry about the Significant Other Rupas being lonely any more;-) If anyone else has family members or Significant Other Rupas to join, no need to be shy;-) I think we're still waiting for a few half-promised Member Rupas too, aren't we Chris??? Metta, Sarah ======= 19256 From: nidive Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:49am Subject: Re: The Language of the Heart Hi Ranil, In short, are you saying that the mind is permanent? In short, are you saying that an arahant though dead (gone parinibbana), still had a mind, but that this mind is totally different from non-arahants? In short, are you saying that a dead arahant (gone parinibbana) is still 'existing' in the form of a mind which cannot be comprehended by conventional reality? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19257 From: bodhi342 Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:57am Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Herman, > May you be bathed in a moderate amount of water. I have read that > Arahants don't laugh, but you can smile just a little, no? :-) Actually I have been smiling a lot since reading this. Since I am not an Arahant, laughing is still present - in abundance too! Could not get the full context of the first statement, but it sounded refreshing. So, when I just took a shower, I moderated the volume in your honor. Your wish has been fulfilled! Would that world peace could be achieved by such simple action..... metta, dharam 19258 From: bodhi342 Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 7:21am Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Christine and All, Funny how this thread lived up to its title ;-) Since, you deftly redirect the dialogue towards how I would act, let me try to explain my own view, unimportant as it is. No, I have not tried any initiative with respect to world peace, because I believe that is just an illusion or dream, as I have tried to point out earlier. Dukkha is all around. I try to only extend my effort as far as my arms extend, my eyes see, and my voice reaches. This allows me to direct my attention to opportunities in daily interaction with ordinary people and animals. I have not been moved into giving to a faceless charity, nor to demonstrate, write letters etc. because that is taken care of by others, who must themselves judge its value. For sure my way is much less impressive, but I choose to practice within my means! I also try to remember that I must practice what I preach, and watch out for signals of delusion like hypocrisy, rituals etc. This of necessity leads to an economy in prescriptive rhetoric! (A very good thing!) Since 'I' am irrelevant in the scheme of things, attention should be directed towards the truth about "..........". All other endeavor is likely relatively futile, with the possible exception of kindness that does not seek reward. I have already said why I think the Dhamma shows a wise way forward. "Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living." metta, dharam 19259 From: James Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 7:57am Subject: Anti-depressants (was: Momentous occasion nr 2) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " < hhofman@t...> wrote: > > A long time ago I was prescribed anti-depressants. The moment they > kicked in I stopped using them, as I could no longer feel. It was for > me far more preferable to feel all that comes with feeling suicidal > than not to be able to feel at all. > > Wishing you well > > > Herman > Hi Herman and All, Yes, in my opinion it is very good that you decided to stop taking the anti-depressants. Regardless of what many people believe, anti- depressants are an extremely dangerous drug to be taking. They radically affect brain chemistry in ways that even scientists/doctors are unsure about. To use an analogy, they are like sending in a bulldozer to do the work a shovel could handle. They are overkill and affect many areas of brain functioning where there wasn't a problem. Like you experienced, you have a few troublesome emotions so the doctor prescribes a drug that eliminates all of your emotions (likely it was Paxil...one of the worst). The Buddha really discovered the way to have proper mood control: The Middle Path. Most people have mood problems because they over-indulge in certain things: food, entertainment, work, sex (including excessive masturbation), alcohol, drugs, thinking, reading, etc. They also have allergic reactions to items in the environment or certain foods. They also tend to have excessive/compulsive thinking patterns. If doctors looked at the whole patient, figured out where there was an imbalance in lifestyle, there would be a proper diagnosis of mood patterns and solutions. Anti-depressants are being prescribed like candy nowadays...there are even commercials on television promising people to 'feel good' if they take a certain anti-depressant. For anyone taking anti-depressants, I recommend they stop taking them immediately (taper down as a radical stop is likely to have bad side-effects since the brain becomes dependant on them) and start to look at your lifestyle and see where there is imbalance. And meditation is one of the best things to do to help mood. Granted, if someone is a nervous wreck or severely depressed, it is difficult to meditate. Then they should do small meditations, a few minutes at a time frequently throughout the day...and then increase to longer time periods. This is my opinion based on extensive research and personal experience of the matter. If you don't agree, okay. Metta, James 19260 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:04am Subject: maharahulovada sutta, Co, no 2. Sarah, thank you, I was hoping you would add the BB notes. In the Pali Proper Names I read about Rahula. He was so eager to be taught, that in the morning he took a handful of sand and said, I also read, Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Rahula, M, sutta 62., no 2. The relevant sutta passage: Commentary: We read that the Buddha considered that he should not neglect Rahula, that he should urge him so that his defilements would not ruin the jewel of his síla. The Buddha turned back with the "great elephant's look" (with his whole body), such as Buddhas always do. Ananda referred to "Lucky Rahula" (Raahula baddha)[1] when he said, "Atha kho Bhagavaa apaloketvaa" [N:as in the sutta], "then the Buddha, after he had looked back... " At that time the Buddha turned around in that way. We read further on in the Commentary: [1] Note: Rahula was called "lucky", baddha, because he was the Buddha's son and he attained arahatship. Nina 19261 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas and canker destruction Dear fk and all, I looked up sutta (below) and commentary. It is worth while to read the whole sutta. He sees the five khandhas as impermanent, dukkha, anatta. I cannot deal now with the whole commentary, but here are some points: sammanupassati: he sees with insight that is strong. He has chandaraga (clinging) in Dhamma, that is, in samatha and vipassana. But he can become an arahat if he gives up clinging to samatha and vipassana. This is the raft, I believe, that was referred to in another post. In the past we had many posts on the subjects, quotes of suttas, about people who developed both samatha and vipassana or developed only vipassana, the sukkhavipassaka. I am somewhat short of time to give more quotes. Please, be assured that I give the matter of jhana and vipassana serious consideration, that I carefully study texts and commentaries and really try to weigh up their meaning. I am not inclined to conclusions that are not firmly based on the Theravada tradition. Like people in the Buddha's time also at this time we are of different temperaments, different inclinations, but we respect each other, and we find that we can learn from each other. I read in another post about cheetah, the correct spelling is citta. If there are doubts about citta, see the satipatthana sutta, under cittaanupassana: seeing citta in citta. The first one here is citta with attachment, saraaga.m citta.m. We have to know this type of citta. When? When it appears, now. No matter you are sitting quietly in contemplation or you are busy in the kitchen, you have to know this type of citta. It cannot be avoided. It is panna which has to be developed so that all dhammas can be known as they are. The persons who had the inclination and skill for jhana, developed it, but, when emerging from jhana they had to know all conditioned dhammas as impermanent, dukkha, anatta. In the end we all have to know those three characteristics. Samadhi is often a point of discussion. There are many types and intensities, depending on which citta they accompany. There is mundane samadhi and supramundane samadhi. When we read about it in the texts we should carefully discriminate what type is referred to, under what heading it has been taught. There are many methods of teaching. Also, we do not think of making a shortcut by applying Abhidhamma. We know that the way is extremely long (cira kala bhavana) and that there is no shortcut to be found. The Buddha taught Abhidhamma so that we will have a more profound understanding of his teaching of non-self also in the Suttanta and in the Vinaya. We have to compare the three Parts of the teachings and then we shall see that they are in conformity with each other. We have to scrutinize the teachings and we have to verify what we learnt in our life. This is important, we should not get stuck with the theory. When you read in our posts about reminders we give as friends to each other, this is just because we realize that we need all the help we can possibly get, we need support from reading, studying, considering, applying what we read and developing awareness. We associate here in this forum with good friends in Dhamma, one of the conditions for reaching the goal. We like to share with each other what we learn from the teachings. I greatly rejoice when I receive reminders from my friends. At the same time I realize that I should not be attached to reminders, everyone has to develop the Path himself. As we read with Larry in the Way (24), mindfulness and understanding should be developed with ardour: atapi sampajano satima. My life is so short, it is urgent not to lose precious moments of developing understanding. This is how I feel about it. Nina. op 29-01-2003 18:18 schreef fcckuan op fcckuan@y...: > Buddha: "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends > on the first jhana...the second jhana...the third...the fourth...the > sphere of the infinitude of space...the sphere of the infinitude of > consciousness...the sphere of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of > the mental fermentations depends on the sphere of neither perception > nor non-perception." -- AN IX.36 > 19262 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:04am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 20 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 20 Thus, we should train ourselves in patience, in adhivåsanå khanti, acceptance and endurance with regard to our living conditions, our environment, patience with regard to all kinds of situations. The person who is impatient is full of malevolence and he will die with a confused mind. If he cannot be patient he may in many situations cause quarreling, injuring, fighting, harming and killing. Patience is very subtle. Everybody who studies the Dhamma has patience to listen, study and consider, with the aim to have right understanding of the Dhamma. One should not think that by just listening one has understood already what was heard. There may be confusion and wrong understanding, because the Dhamma is very subtle and deep. Patience with regard to listening to the Dhamma should increase: we should consider cause and effect in the right way, so that we see the benefit of kusala and further develop it. If this is not the case, we just listen but we do not consider with wise attention what we have heard, and then there will be conditions for wrong conduct and wrong practice. We read in the ŒKindred Sayings² (V, Mahå-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Streamwinning, Ch II, § 2, Brahmins) that the Buddha, while he was dwelling at Såvatthí, was reminding the monks about the right patience and the wrong patience. We read: Monks, the brahmins proclaim this practice which leads to prosperity: they instruct their disciples thus: ³Come, good fellow! Rise up betimes and go facing east. Don¹t avoid a hole, a village pool or cess-pit. You should go to meet your death wherever you may fall. Thus, good fellow, on the break up of body, after death you will be reborn in the Happy Lot, in the Heaven World.² The brahmins teach endurance and patience, but if patience is not accompanied by paññå it is not beneficial at all. This teaching of the brahmins is devoid of paññå, it is unreasonable and not beneficial. We read further on that the Buddha said: But, monks, this practice of the brahmins is the way of fools, it is the way of infatuation. It conduces not to revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to full comprehension, to the wisdom, it conduces not to Nibbåna. Now, monks, I too proclaim, in the Ariyan discipline, a practice which leads to prosperity, but it is one which conduces to downright revulsion, dispassion, cessation, to calm, to full comprehension, to the wisdom, to Nibbåna. The brahmins use the same word, ³leading to prosperity², but the meaning is different, and it refers to a different way of practice. We read that the Buddha said: Herein, monks, the Ariyan disciple has unwavering loyalty to the Buddha... the Dhamma...the Order. He is blessed with the virtues dear to the Ariyans, virtues unbroken, whole, unspotted, untarnished, virtues untainted, which lead to concentration of mind. This, monks, is the practice which leads to downright revulsion, dispassion, cessation, to calm, to full comprehension, to the wisdom, to Nibbåna. This is a short text, but it deals with the dhammas which are naturally appearing just as they are, at this moment. This is the way leading to dispassion, calm, full comprehension, enlightenment, nibbåna. 19263 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:09am Subject: (2)2.Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers Dear Dhamma Friends, In the previous post,4 sets of Cetasikas had been described.In this post,let's go into some detail about the permanent ministers (Sabbacittasadarana Cetasikas).There are 7 of them. 1.Phassa Cetasika It introduce Arammana and Citta.It meet them.When an iron rod is struck against another iron rod,there will appear sparks.The first rod is Arammana,the second is Citta and the act of touching is Phassa. 2.Vedana Cetasika It feels the arammana and makes citta feels as well.Each citta arised has its own Vedana Cetasika.Cittas are named according to their accompanying Vedana cetasika in terms of Vedanasanghaha,like Somanassa cittas,Domanassa cittas,Dukkha citta,Sukkha citta and Upekkha cittas. 3.Cetana Cetasika It drives citta.It urges to do,push forward citta.It reminds citta.Cetana also drives other cetasikas to do their business.It is Cetana who creates Kamma when they accompanied Javanacittas. 4.Sanna Cetasika It memorises and it recalls.It reports the memories to citta.This can be learn in case of people with Jatissara-nana(reincarnated people who know the previous lives events-actually the brain in this life and ones in previous lives are never related-Science view).In this matters Sanna works and memories are carried over from citta to citta but subconsciously. 5.Ekagatta Cetasika It fixes citta to an arammana.It controls citta not to spread to other arammanas and it calms down citta and accompanting Cetasikas.See in the post named ''Ekagatta,Samadhi,Jhana & Concentration''. 6.Jivitindriya Cetasika It supports citta and other accompanying cetasikas as caterer or supplier and it functions as life and makes all namadhammas alive. 7.Manasikara Cetasika It directs citta to arammana.It steers citta and its allied cetasikas not to deviate to any other directions.It functions as supplying a straight way.The way we think the arammana is directed by Manasikara.''Yonisomanasikara'' good insight makes good things. All these 7 Cetasikas always accompany any citta.They all design the citta of theirs.They all help the citta of theirs. May you all have a clearer view on this post. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19264 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:35pm Subject: F/W message from Mike Nease Mike's having trouble getting his new email add accepted by yahoo groups, so I'm f/w his mail. Sarah. ============================= Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:26 AM Hi Nina, Thanks for you comments, "If we like our food or laugh, there is no akusala kamma. We just discussed this again with A. Sujin. If we would think that laughing brings an unpleasant result, how unnatural our life would be. It could cause lots of scruples to people." If thought, speech or action with regard to a pleasant impingement (of thought of flavor e.g.) is conditioned by attachment to the pleasant feeling--that is, tending to continue or repeat the impingement--this is perfectly natural but still akusala, I think, however subtle. (I mean that that volition does accumulate as akusala kamma and as a condition for future akusala kamma). In fact I think most akusala is 'perfectly natural' and learning to see the danger in it (especially in lobha) is rather un-natural. Naturally, people like to think that their everday pleasures and attachments are harmless, but this is not borne out by my (obviously very limited) understanding of Buddhadhamma. Am I missing or miscontruing something? Thanks in advance... mike 19265 From: Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:52pm Subject: Way 44, Comm, Deportment "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Modes of Deportment, p. 56 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html [Tika] Going is here shown to be one of the particular modes of bare phenomenal movement due to appropriate cause-and-condition, without attributing it to a fallacious reason such as the one formulated thus: The soul comes into contact with the mind, the mind with the sense-organs and the sense-organs with the object (thus there is perception). [idañhi gamanam nama atta manasa samyujjati mano indriyehi indriyani atthehiti evamadi miccha karana vinimutta anurupa paccaya hetuko dhammanam pavatti akara viseso[20]]. [T] "No living being or person", because of the proving of the going of only a bare phenomenon and because of the absence of anyone besides that phenomenon. Now to show proof of the going of a bare phenomenon the words beginning with "on account of the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity" were spoken by the commentator [dhammamattasseva gamanasiddhito tabbinimuttasa ca kassaci abhavato idani dhammamattasseva gamana siddhim dassetum citta kriya vayo dhatu vippharenati adi vuttam]. [T] There mental activity and the diffusion and agitation in the process of oscillation which is mental activity = diffusion of the process of mental activity [tattha citta kriya ca vippharo vipphandanañcati citta kriya vayo dhatu vippharo]. The commentator, by mentioning mental activity, eschews the diffusion of the process of oscillation connected with inanimate things, and by the mention of the diffusion of the process of oscillation eschews the class of mental activity producing volitional verbal-expression. By the terms mental activity and the process of oscillation, the commentator makes clear bodily expression [tena ettha ca citta kriyaggahanena anindriyabaddha vayodhatu vippharam nivatteti: vayodhatu vippharaggahanena cetana vaciviññatti bhedam citta kriyam nivatteti. Ubhayena pana kaya viññattim vibhaveti]. [T] "Produces the process of oscillation." Brings about the group of materiality with the quality of oscillation in excess. [T] This group of materiality is that of the pure octad consisting of the Four Great Primaries [mahabhuta] symbolized by earth, water, fire and air, and the four derived from these: color, smell, taste and nutritive essence [pathavi apo tejo vayo vanna gandha rasa oja]. [T] "Excess" is to be taken here by way of capability (adequacy or competency) and not by way of measure (size or amount). [T] "The process of oscillation produces expression." This was said concerning the process of oscillation arisen from the thought of going. This process is a condition to the supporting with energy, the bearing up, and the movement of the conascent body of materiality. [T] "Expression" is that change which takes place together with the intention. [T] "Oscillation" is mentioned by way of a predominant condition [adhika bhava] and not by way of production through oscillation alone. Otherwise the state of derived materiality pertaining to expression would not be a fact [aññatha viññattiya upadaya rupa bhavo durupapado siya]. 19266 From: James Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:32pm Subject: Buddha Art Hi All, I like to do photographic, computer art in my spare time. I have uploaded two Buddha art pieces I have done in the photos section "4Others". They are titled "Morning Buddha" and "Awaiting Release". I hope you enjoy them. (Sarah, don't worry, they have been optimized for the Internet and take very little server space ;-). Metta, James 19267 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Mike Great to have you back again :-)), :-)). I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. Kamma is a vast and complex subject, which I do not pretend to even partly grasp (I mean of course at an intellectual level). However, I believe we need to distinguish between the moments of kusala/akusala volition that constitute 'completed action' or 'courses of action' (kamma patha) and those moments of kusala/akusala volition that are not of that strength or nature but simply accumulate as a tendency. While it's true that the latter may play a part in our committing more of the former at some time in the future, even this is not necessarily so with all instances of akusala volition. For example, the attachment that motivates our normal living activities (eating, brushing teeth, going to work etc) is not regarded as leading us in the direction of committing more akusala kamma patha. If I remember correctly, this class of attachment is referred to somewhere in the teachings as attachment that is 'to be followed' (perhaps someone will remember the source, it has been quoted on-list before). Put another way, this akusala volition simply does not involve the degree of danger that other akusala volition does. In addition to that, even among the akusala volition that constitutes akusala kamma patha, some plays only a supporting role, and so is dependent for its efficacy on other (more weighty) kamma coming to fruition. I have pasted below some extracts from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary that might be of interest. Jon Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary A. Kamma-patha <<< kamma-patha: 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): - 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; - 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; - 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): - 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; - 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; - 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'. >>> B. Kamma <<< kamma: 'action', correctly speaking denotes the wholesome and unwholesome volitions (kusala- and akusala-cetaná) and their concomitant mental factors, causing rebirth and shaping the destiny of beings. These karmical volitions (kamma cetaná) become manifest as wholesome or unwholesome actions by body (káya-kamma), speech (vací-kamma) and mind (mano-kamma). .. .. .. With regard to their functions one distinguishes: 1. regenerative (or productive) karma (janaka-kamma), 2. supportive (or consolidating) karma (upatthambhaka-kamma), 3. counteractive (suppressive or frustrating) karma (upapílaka-kamma), 4. destructive (or supplanting) karma (upaghátaka- or upacchedaka-kamma). (1) produces the 5 groups of existence (corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness) at rebirth as well as during life-continuity. (2) does not produce karma-results but is only able to maintain the already produced karma-results. (3) counteracts or suppresses the karma-results. (4) destroys the influence of a weaker karma and effects only its own result. >>> > > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:26 AM > Hi Nina, Thanks for you comments, "If we like our food or laugh, there is no akusala kamma. We just discussed this again with A. Sujin. If we would think that laughing brings an unpleasant result, how unnatural our life would be. It could cause lots of scruples to people." If thought, speech or action with regard to a pleasant impingement (of thought of flavor e.g.) is conditioned by attachment to the pleasant feeling--that is, tending to continue or repeat the impingement--this is perfectly natural but still akusala, I think, however subtle. (I mean that that volition does accumulate as akusala kamma and as a condition for future akusala kamma). In fact I think most akusala is 'perfectly natural' and learning to see the danger in it (especially in lobha) is rather un-natural. Naturally, people like to think that their everday pleasures and attachments are harmless, but this is not borne out by my (obviously very limited) understanding of Buddhadhamma. Am I missing or miscontruing something? Thanks in advance... mike Weight Age Gender Female Male 19268 From: James Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:40pm Subject: Love Hi All, In the USA, February 14th is Valentines Day, a day to remember love… and it is usually symbolized with a heart. I am going to spend some time this month researching and learning more about love and the heart. In Buddhism, love is translated into metta, which actually means `loving kindness'. I think that, as Buddhists, we often distance ourselves from love. Love is viewed as something that is overly emotional, irrational, and impassioned; but I don't think that is really love. The Buddha talked many times about metta and how its cultivation is beneficial…even to the point of arahantship. But what is it? How do we see it? How do we know it? I have read the suttas about metta and I still don't know if I have a grasp on what the Buddha was trying to teach…not really. A few years ago, I asked my meditation teacher, Ajahn Somporn, how I was to practice Metta Meditation because I didn't really feel anything when I did it. I couldn't seem to be able to project anything like metta out to anyone. I felt like a lightbulb trying to light up that didn't have the electricity. He told me something very profound, but also something very disturbing that I didn't want to hear, "You have to love yourself first." I think as adults we become very jaded about love and forget what it means; or maybe I just speak for myself. So I want to share some observations that some children (4 to 8-years-old) had when they were asked what love is: ·"Love is that first feeling you feel before all the bad stuff gets in the way." ·"When my grandmother got arthritis, she couldn't bend over and paint her toenails anymore. So my grandfather does it for her all the time, even when his hands got arthritis too. That's love." ·"Love is when you go out to eat and give somebody most of your french fries without making them give you any of theirs." ·"Love is when someone hurts you. And you get so mad but you don't yell at them because you know it would hurt their feelings." ·"Love is what makes you smile when you're tired." ·"My mommy loves me more than anybody. You don't see anyone else kissing me to sleep at night." ·"Love is when mommy gives daddy the best piece of chicken." ·"Love is when mommy sees daddy on the toilet and she doesn't think it's gross." ·"You really shouldn't say 'I love you' unless you mean it. But if you mean it, you should say it a lot. People forget." I think that maybe this is a good start for me. If anyone else has any ideas, feel free to share them with me. I guess I am the one with no heart! LOL! Metta, James 19269 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:55pm Subject: A. P. Buddhadatta book query Dear Group, Does anyone know where I can obtain a copy of A.P. Buddhadatta. "The New Pali Course, Part 1 (6th Edition). 'Colombo: The Colombo Apothecaries', 1962? Is it still in print? metta, Christine 19270 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:40pm Subject: Re: Love Hi James, I wonder if love is better considered as a 'well-wishing intention towards someone', as a 'mental action', not as an 'arising emotional state'. The english language is not rich in alternative words and the term "love" has been used as a 'catch all' for a wide range of feelings from 'like' to 'lust'; e.g. "I love vanilla ice-cream', 'I love my brother'; 'I love swimming'; 'I love my country'; ''I love cool weather'; I love the Dhamma'; "I love my partner'; It has been directed at inanimate objects, physical feelings, actions, philosophical ideas, the divine, humans and non-humans. The one word is used to represent greed, friendship, sexual desire, brotherly feelings, sacred feelings, self-sacrifice, patriotism etc. Perhaps most of the ways we think of love are only 'attachment' (in the Dhamma sense)? How very interesting that Ajahn Sompom told you, "You have to love yourself first" - did he say much more about that aspect? Until coming to this dsg group, I always believed that in practising metta- bhavana one should begin by generating metta towards oneself. That what one wants to arouse is not the ordinary selfish concern with one's own profit and advantage, but a heartfelt wish for one's own genuine well-being and happiness. I thought that once one succeeded in "softening the heart" towards oneself, and could really feel a deep concern for one's own well-being, one then selected in turn representatives from the other groups -- respected person, close friend, neutral person, and foe -- and then generated the same feeling of metta towards them, until it became equalized among all five. [There have been several lively discussions about whether metta should be 'self' or only 'other' directed on dsg.] metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: > Hi All, > > In the USA, February 14th is Valentines Day, a day to remember love… > and it is usually symbolized with a heart. I am going to spend some > time this month researching and learning more about love and the > heart. In Buddhism, love is translated into metta, which actually > means `loving kindness'. I think that, as Buddhists, we often > distance ourselves from love. Love is viewed as something that is > overly emotional, irrational, and impassioned; but I don't think that > is really love. The Buddha talked many times about metta and how its > cultivation is beneficial…even to the point of arahantship. But what > is it? How do we see it? How do we know it? I have read the suttas > about metta and I still don't know if I have a grasp on what the > Buddha was trying to teach…not really. 19271 From: nidive Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:51pm Subject: Re: Love Hi James, > If anyone else has any ideas, feel free to share them with me. This is my idea: to love is to comprehend love as love. How is love comprehended as love? There is the case where one does not conceive things about love, does not conceive things in love, does not conceive things coming out of love, does not conceive love as 'mine', does not delight in love. Knowing that delight is the root of suffering and stress, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, one attains the unexcelled right self-awakening. This is the Highest "Love" that one may shower upon oneself. This is the Highest "Love" that leads to Unbinding. One who does not delight in metta while radiating metta is the one who radiates the purest metta. Such was the Buddha. Reference Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19272 From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:51am Subject: The Many Names of Buddha Dear Friends in This Community List, The "Many Names for the Buddha" was shared by a friend who leads another community like this and close to our own. Some of you may recognize this was posted by a wonderful Dhamma practitioner and what I would call a good friend but a true kalyána-mitta --- Noble Friend. Dr. Desmond Chiong, I have known as a loving, kind, compassionate teacher and a very much needed healing presence on this Internet. It is with profound reverence and deep appreciation, and gratitude for the Path that brings me the chance to share a recent post of his --- one that is beneficial for all of Dhamma Practitioners. Dhamma requires practice. The nectar of Practice of Buddhadharma is like no other. It is a nectar that is also a medicine. The extraction of that Nectar has been symbolized by the bee that drinks the flowers' nectar but does not hurt the flowers. If we study the Dhamma like the bees' and the flowers' cooperative relationship, then practice is healing and not harmful, and we learn that the Dhamma is studied or else how could one establish the right practice? The Fourth Noble Truth is first expanded by Right View or Right Understanding like what like the bees are to the flowers and flowers are to the bees. Right Thinking is like the bees who share their truth upon returning to the hive. There are many hives but these bees know where to return with their share of nectar, and depart again, returning to the flowers for their offering of nectar.... And so on... Dhamma requires practice but it begins with a serious commitment to study and learn. "The Many Names of the Buddha" is something that can be used for reflection akin to Samatha meditation. The references given beside them can provide a nice series of daily type reading for reflection, study, practice, and application. That we have this medicine or nectar available to us right here and now, that we can share it, continue the practice of it, educate with it, heal the Earth and ourselves with it, but most importantly apply it honestly and objectively to ourselves discovering that the Dhamma Truth applies to all human beings without regard to class, place, space, time, race, religion, etc.; --- when we can see all by ourselves the facts; when we apply ourselves to the Dhamma with bare attention, as well as apply the Dhamma to ourselves, we know and witness that a Refuge in Truth is the only real protection in these troubled times. May this everyone here well, happy, safe and secure, prospering, and ever mindful of the Gift That Excels All Others, And with gratitude to Des for reminding us of the Taste of the Medicine That Excels All Other Tastes, in the Dhamma, Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo oooO0Oooo The many names for the Buddha The following are a few of the many epithets that appear in the suttas in reference to the Buddha. The indicated sutta passages contain examples. All-seeing: Iti 112 Awakened one(buddho): AN XI.12 Best of those who can be tamed: Iti 112 Blessed one(bhagava): AN XI.12 Bull among men: Sn III.11 Bull among seers: Sn III.11 Bull of the Sakyan clan: Sn III.11 Caravan leader: Iti 84 Conqueror of beasts: Sn III.11 Consummate in knowledge & conduct (vijja-carana-sampanno): AN XI.12 Dispeller of darkness: Iti 38 Endowed with all the foremost marks: Snp III.1 Expert with regard to the world (lokavidu): AN XI.12 First in the world: Iti 84 Foremost jewel: Sn III.11 Foremost of all people: Sn III.11 Foremost of charioteers: Thag VI.9 Foremost of those who can cross: Iti 112 Foremost sage: Sn III.11 Giver of the deathless: MN 18 Great One (naga): Ud V.6 Great seer: Sn IV.14 Kinsman of the sun: Sn IV.14 Peerless bull: SN I.38 Rightly self-awakened (samma-sambuddho): AN XI.12 Shower of the way: MN 107 Supreme among those who can be released: Iti 112 Tathagata (the one "Thus-gone" or "Thus-come"): Iti 112 Teacher of divine & human beings (sattha deva-manussanam): Iti 112 Thoroughly mature: Iti 112 Ultimate leader: Thag VI.9 Unconquered conqueror: Iti 112 Unexcelled trainer for those people fit to be tamed (anuttaro purisa- damma-sarathi): AN XI.12 Unsurpassed doctor and surgeon: Iti 100 Well-gone one (sugato): AN XI.12 Wielder of power: Iti 112 Worthy one (arahant): AN XI.12 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- See also: Refuge: An Introduction to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Revised: Fri 17 May 2002 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/buddha.html metta, and karuna, des 19273 From: Antony Woods Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: Love Dear Christine, James and all, I was very interested in the following quote: "To practise the meditation on loving-kindness, one should begin with oneself. One should cultivate the wish to be happy." http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/bs-s-splash.htm Simply cultivating the wish to be happy seems a lot simpler than wishing "May I be happy" with its reference to self. May we be happy, safe, healthy and peaceful / Antony. 19274 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:05am Subject: Buddhist books for Children Dear Ray, James & David, Thankyou for your feedback.I’ve had a look at the Pariyatti site and will keep an eye open for the other titles suggested. Like James always stresses, imaginatively produced or illustrated helps for children and I know his book will be very imaginative;-) I already have ‘What the Buddha Taught’ of course and have now put it in the kids’ library. In addition, I visited a nearby ‘boutique bookshop’ to see if they had anything possible yesterday. Actually, they had quite a lot of Buddhist books and I started checking them with kids’ eyes. Some I also rejected because there was too much inside which I personally disagreed with (i.e don’t consider to conform with the texts or were purely Mahayana and thereby not suitable for quoting on DSG;-). I ended up buying: -A questionable translation of Dhammapada by Thomas Byrom which is however more appealing to look at than the copies I have with Pali. -‘The Bristish Museum BUDDHA’ by Delia Pemberton - a nicely produced little book (lots of photos) with good factual info as far as I can see -‘The Vision of The Buddha’ by Tom Lowenstein - imaginative, factual, Buddhism in different parts of the world -Karen Armstrong’s ‘Buddha’ which looks like quite a good and easy to read account of the Buddha’s life. What I like is that she gives the sources for all her comments at the back and the parts I read seemed very accurate. This might be a good book to give beginner adults too as the off-list friend asked about. Usually with children, I just like to encourage them to read and read and to make their own choices according to tastes in this regard. Last year I had a pair of identical twins who would always choose completely different kinds of books. I think one has to encourage according to the interest, even if it's Pokemon in the beginning as it was for one of these boys;-) I’ll just put these titles amongst others in the library and see if any ‘appeal’. One child, Kiana (aged 11 or 12), with very average English and from a very ordinary background happened to have read almost almost all the adult books from ‘Lord of the Rings’ to ‘Life and Death in Shanghai’ to Charles Dickens etc and was glad to pick up ‘20 Jatakas’ by way of light relief and then refer several other kids to it who wouldn’t have been interested if it had been my suggestion. For Chinese New Year, Kiana has now taken out the larger Thai book on Jatakas - an adult retelling of the last 12 tales with the Thai mural paintings. It’ll be interesting to hear what she makes of the Vessantara story told there in full detail. Thanks again Ray and James for your suggestions which I’ll look out for. Some of the others on Pariyatti would be good for the younger children especially. Meanwhile we’re enjoying the Chinese New Year holiday here, James - oranges everywhere along with red lanterns and red packets - a chance to give.....Unusually fine weather for a little hiking for us. Kung Hei Fat Choi to all Chinese members! Sarah ====== 19275 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:42am Subject: Re: The Many Names of Buddha Dear Dhamma Friends, Many Names of The Buddha should be borne in our mind.We all should realise what each name refers to.Thinking of The Buddha and His gunnas is Buddhanussati Kammathana.This Kammathana is quite useful for the beginners because it raises the necessary basis and empowers their Saddha(belief). There are four Kammathanas that guard us. 1.Buddhanussati Kammathana(for raising Saddha). 2.Marananussati Kammathana(for suppressing Mana). 3.Kayagatanussati Kammathana(for suppressing Raga). 4.Mettanussati Kammathana that is 4 Brahamavihara or Brahmacariya(for suppressing Dosa) Each has its own goodness.But for the beginners,what makes most is Buddhanussati Kammathana. We need to put our mind on thinking of Buddhagunnas.So there will not be no more other bad thoughts. We need to cite Gunna at any time and at all possible time.With practice it will be apparent that The Buddha lives with us all the time.In the presence of The Buddha we will not do bad things and so on. Even ''Arahan'' has many meanings.And there are many other gunnas and they can be searched in the literature. May you all live with The Buddha by practising Buddhanussati Kammathana. With Great Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Dear Friends in This Community List, > > The "Many Names for the Buddha" was shared by a friend who leads another > community like this and close to our own. a true kalyána-mitta --- Noble Friend. > Dr. Desmond Chiong, a loving, kind, compassionate teacher > and a very much needed healing presence on this Internet. > It is with profound reverence and deep appreciation, and gratitude for the > Path that brings me the chance to share a recent post of his --- one that is > beneficial for all of Dhamma Practitioners. > metta, > and karuna, > des 19276 From: James Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:20am Subject: Re: Love --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > > How very interesting that Ajahn Sompom told you, "You have to love > yourself first" - did he say much more about that aspect? Hi Christine, Antony, NEO, and ALL, Hmmm…Christine, I don't think I get what you are saying about love. I think that maybe you have confused me even more! ;-) You ask about Ajahn Somporn and what else he said about the matter. When I asked him to explain what he meant, since I thought that love was putting other people before oneself, he….oh, you're gonna love this one!… asked me a question: Who is the most important person to you? I told him that I didn't know; a lot of people are important to me. He then said, "If everyone who was important to you was in a boat in the ocean than sank, and you were all floating in the ocean, who would you think about saving first? You would want to save yourself first. There is no one you would want to save more than to save yourself." I naturally had to agree with that because it is true. I know that my meditation teacher was right; I just didn't/don't understand what he was meaning. It is some sort of insight that I don't get. There must be some way to love oneself and still remain selfless. Hmmmm…I am still learning and wanting to learn. Thanks Antony for the link, I will read it completely. NEO, that is some interesting word substitution in a sutta source, but I am not sure that changing the words of the Buddha is what I am looking for. What does what you wrote mean to you? Metta, James 19277 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Frank I have enjoyed reading your posts lately. On the subject of right concentration, I understand your view to be that the development of samatha/the jhanas is a necessary prerequisite for the development of insight and the attainment of enlightenment (my apologies if I have got this wrong). So that I can understand better where you are coming from, may I ask how you reconcile that view with the descriptions in the suttas of persons who manage to attain enlightenment without any apparent history of samatha/jhana development (for example, the householder Upali in the Upali Sutta MN 56, p. 477 of MDB)? On the particular sutta extract you have quoted, I think it is best understood by considering the part that follows it: "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskilful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perceptions, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, a void, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' The crucial passage here is the description of the development of insight: "He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perceptions, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, ... not-self." This is a description that we are familiar with from other contexts where there is no samatha/jhana connection. Whatever the context, the teachings always come back to the need for insight into the true nature of the presently arising dhamma, described here in terms of the 5 khandhas. This is as applicable to the jhana attainer as it is to any other person. That's my reading, anyway! Jon --- "fcckuan " wrote: > Buddha: "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana...the second jhana...the third...the fourth...the sphere of the infinitude of space...the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness...the sphere of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception." -- AN IX.36 19278 From: ajahn_paul Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:28am Subject: Re: Photo of Rusty Is Rusty ur dog??? one of my dogs momo, a chow, just passed away on 27/1/2003 at 9pm. :(::::::: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Starkids, and All, > > A photo of Rusty has been uploaded to: > http://tinyurl.com/4wyv > > metta, > Christine 19279 From: fcckuan Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:19am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Herman, I actually posted a lengthy and juicy response, but it got zapped due to some inferior software deficiencies working to my disadvantage. Anicca. Through nonclinging, I save myself any vexation and grief from remembering/retyping/recomposing (or recom- posting?) my original 1 hour response. Dukkha, Anatta, -fk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Frank, > > A little light heartedness here. I hope that's OK. > 19280 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Love Excellent. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 11:51 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Love > Hi James, > > > If anyone else has any ideas, feel free to share them with me. > > This is my idea: to love is to comprehend love as love. > > How is love comprehended as love? There is the case where one does > not conceive things about love, does not conceive things in love, > does not conceive things coming out of love, does not conceive love > as 'mine', does not delight in love. Knowing that delight is the > root of suffering and stress, with the total ending, fading away, > cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, one attains the > unexcelled right self-awakening. > > This is the Highest "Love" that one may shower upon oneself. This is > the Highest "Love" that leads to Unbinding. > > One who does not delight in metta while radiating metta is the one > who radiates the purest metta. Such was the Buddha. > > Reference Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > 19281 From: fcckuan Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Jon (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > On the subject of right concentration, I understand your view to be > that the development of samatha/the jhanas is a necessary > prerequisite for the development of insight and the attainment of > enlightenment (my apologies if I have got this wrong). What I believe is that some minimal jhanic proficiency is necessary. There are differing views of what that minimal level is, so I personally find it prudent to overshoot that minimum and make sure one develops jhana to a degree of proficiency with some margin of safety to prevent being left out of the big party. Attainmnent of jhanic proficiency does not guarantee development of insight, and liberating insights don't occur while one is absorbed in jhana, but jhanic level of concentration is a necessary power tool to enable one to have insight into destruction of the taints. > So that I can understand better where you are coming from, may I ask > how you reconcile that view with the descriptions in the suttas of > persons who manage to attain enlightenment without any apparent > history of samatha/jhana development (for example, the householder > Upali in the Upali Sutta MN 56, p. 477 of MDB)? > One can have jhanic level of concentration without having formally practiced jhanas (in this lifetime). I don't believe people randomly have talent, worldly or unworldly. I believe in dependently arisen and conditioned talent. > The crucial passage here is the description of the development of > insight: > "He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, > feeling, perceptions, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, > stressful, ... not-self." My conclusion from pali cannon is that lesser quality concentration produces insights that affect our views and understanding at an intellectual level, which can greatly reduce dukkha, but jhanic level of concentration is necessary for liberating insight for destruction of the taints. There is another sutta passage that says right mindfulness can not be brought to full power without jhanic level of right concentration. Thus, a path built on mindfulness and abhidhamma study can take you perhaps to stream entry, but not all the way to the other shore until right concentration (and right view of course) is fully developed. -fk 19282 From: nidive Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:47am Subject: Re: Love Hi James, > NEO, that is some interesting word substitution in a sutta source, but I am > not sure that changing the words of the Buddha is what I am looking for. > What does what you wrote mean to you? The Notes to that Sutta says: 4. "The seen, the heard, the sensed, & the cognized" is a set of terms to cover all things experienced through the six senses. 5. Singleness = experience in states of intense concentration (jhana). Multiplicity = experience via the six senses. I think love is something that is experienced through the intellect sense (mind sense). It is also something that can be practised as a form of concentration. Love is something that is not-self as well. It is to be comprehended as such. Comprehension of love as love will lead to dispassion and Unbinding. Therefore, the Highest Love that anyone can shower on himself/herself is to comprehend love as love and giving up the delight in love. Anyone who has the Highest Love for himself/herself will practice such a comprehension leading to dispassion. It may sound nonsensical, but I think that a person who radiates metta without attachment to that metta is purer than the person who radiates metta with attachment to it (ie. with the thought "This metta is mine." or "I am the one who radiates the metta.", or with subtle conceit and self-delusion). Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19283 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Love Dear Neo, p.s. Also please note the suggestive similarity between 'lobha' and the Indo-European root 'leubh' at http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE281.html Hi Christine--I think this topic is of great importance, because of the utterly pervasive influence of lobha on everyday life and the liklihood of mistaking it for mettaa, mudita etc. I think this is a real touchstone of Buddhadhamma--does it conduce to detachment? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 11:51 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Love > Hi James, > > > If anyone else has any ideas, feel free to share them with me. > > This is my idea: to love is to comprehend love as love. > > How is love comprehended as love? There is the case where one does > not conceive things about love, does not conceive things in love, > does not conceive things coming out of love, does not conceive love > as 'mine', does not delight in love. Knowing that delight is the > root of suffering and stress, with the total ending, fading away, > cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, one attains the > unexcelled right self-awakening. > > This is the Highest "Love" that one may shower upon oneself. This is > the Highest "Love" that leads to Unbinding. > > One who does not delight in metta while radiating metta is the one > who radiates the purest metta. Such was the Buddha. > > Reference Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19284 From: James Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Love --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Excellent. > > mike Mike, No offense, but I don't understand the point of this post. Are you casting a vote or something...like on American Idol? ;-) Does NEO now get to go to Hollywood because you gave him the thumbs up? ;-). There are many posts that I agree with or disagree with or couldn't care less about, but unless I have something to add I don't post just my opinion. Is doing so in keeping with the dhamma? (ps. I thought his post was excellent also. It should be, it was plagarized from Lord Buddha.) Metta, James 19285 From: James Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "fcckuan " < fcckuan@y...> wrote: Thus, a path built on mindfulness and > abhidhamma study can take you perhaps to stream entry, but not all > the way to the other shore until right concentration (and right view > of course) is fully developed. > > -fk Hi Frank (and Jon): I completely agree with you. Granted, that householder attained enlightenment without meditation practice but he wasn't just some Joe Blow off the street. He had the right amount of accumulations from previous lifetimes of learning and concentration practice. It appears to me as if Jon is suggesting that formal, Yogic meditation practice isn't necessary to follow what the Buddha taught. Nothing could be further from the truth! Simply reading the suttas, studying dhamma, and memorizing Abhidhamma terminology, without formal meditation practice, is like reading a menu but never ordering the food and eating it. That may titillate the mind, but the belly will remain empty. Metta, James 19286 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)1.Cetasikas As Designers. A shortlived cabinet. Dear Htoo, I like this simile, it is refreshing. Especially the different kinds of ministers: permanent and flexible, destructive and constructive. Good for children as well. Did you find this in a textbook, or did you think of it yourself? Poor cabinet, all ministers, even the permanent ones, are very temporary, changing each moment. When we were in Thailand A. Sujin explained that the sense-cognitions (seeing etc) which are accompanied only by seven cetasikas (the permanent ministers) are totally different from all the other cittas which have other kinds of ministers. We should not get stuck on a theoretical level, but, she said we should really consider this in our life. After seeing there are cittas with the flexible minister of vitakka, applied thought, which strikes again and again on the object. Quite different from just seeing which does not need vitakka in order to see. This helps us to better understand the difference between seeing and thinking, which arises so shortly after seeing. Nina op 29-01-2003 20:20 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Everybody has one and the only one mind(from science point of view).Actually > mind has as army of > soldiers 19287 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Dear Kom, the Pali has kammatthana, usually translated as meditation subject. It is used for samatha and vipassana. Here, it could mean samatha, since satipatthana is also mentioned. As I quoted : eva.m bhuutassa cassa kuto kamma.t.thaanaadibhaavoti aaha ``kamma.t.thaana.m vaa satipa.t.thaanabhaavanaa vaa na hotii''ti. indeed, how can there for such a person be the development of a meditation subject, and therefore he said: there is no development of a meditation subject nor of satipatthana. op 30-01-2003 07:17 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > > Nina, thank you very much for adding more notes from Tika > which clarifies but also adds more questions for me: there > is no development of a meditation subject. Satipatthana is > developed, but what is the development of meditation > subject? Does it refer to samatha or vipassana here? 19288 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, , contemplation and insight, careful noticing Dear Kom, Thank you for your excellent explanation and reminder. See below, adding a little. op 30-01-2003 08:30 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > > If somebody tells me that I should be noticing the dhammas > that are arising carefully, what I immediately think of is, > who's doing the careful noticing? N; that is the qu we should always ask ourselves; before we realize it, it is wrong again. But so good to know where we are wrong. On the other hand, what Larry says can also be taken in the right way. It is sati sampajanna, not self, who carefully notices. Careful, because it needs a refined awareness and understanding to discern the different characteristics that appear. K: The "self" that notices would be (in realities) tanha, mana, > and ditthi. If one of these is noticing the dhamma, then it > is not satipatthana that is arising, but it is the dhamma, > if misunderstood, could condition wrong views (that it is > satipatthana). The self is immensely subtle: if we don't > understand (really understand) that the Buddha's path is > about detachment all the way, we might be misled by these > ever more subtle kilesa. N: We heard A. Sujin speak many times about detachment, that the Path is all the way about detachment. We can repeat this, but, so difficult to really know what true detachment is. If we know more our attachment, we may understand what detachment is, what are your views about this? Theoretical understanding about detachment is not enough. K: Panna is accumulated. When there is enough accumulation, it > does its own thing properly. No need to be extra careful > (except in not misleading oneself). N: Your last sentence, not misleading oneself, made me laugh. It is so true. Good to remember that panna works its own way, it does its own thing, as you say. Usually people do not believe this, they wonder how can it be. They underestimate the power of panna. There is no need to concentrate first, so that panna can know realities, but some people worry that panna is not fast enough to know the present reality. They believe that they should sit and watch what is going on. A. Sujin said: panna can shoot from very far and very fast. It is compared to shooting at a target. We cannot grasp this yet. The accumulation of panna is much slower than we would like, but here there is attachment again. > K: The Buddha's compares the development of insights to wearing > away the knife's handle. It is gradual, and hardly > noticeable. When you goes for the accelerated schedule > theory, or the big-bang theory, the task at hand is already > being neglected. We should firmly remember the conditions > of panna: sitting near the true friend, hearing the true > dhamma, wise consideration, and follow the teachings the > best we can. N: I do not believe any theory could work. The wise consideration is most important but often forgotten. It is the follow up to listening. However, I find it difficult to explain this to others. Some people say, out of real concern, should I not start the real meditation now? They are afraid that we are lazy, doing nothing, or take the easy way. Can you add more? That would be helpful. I think this is a crucial point. Thank you very much, I do appreciate what you say. Nina. 19289 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:19am Subject: Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 1 Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 1 Chapter 3 The Rúpa which is Bodily Intimation, Kåya Viññatti Rúpa Introduction Bodily intimation, kåya viññatti rúpa, is a kind of rúpa, that originates from citta. It does not originate from the other three factors that can produce rúpa: kamma, temperature and nutrition. Bodily intimation originates from citta that intends to convey a meaning. For example, when we gesticulate, citta produces bodily intimation so that our intention is expressed. Speech intimation, vací viññatti rúpa, is another kind of rúpa that originates from citta that intends to convey a meaning. Both bodily intimation and speech intimation arise in a group of rúpas, produced by citta. When we learn more details about bodily intimation and speech intimation, we can understand the intricacy of the conditions for the different dhammas to arise. Whenever we gesticulate or speak, we can be reminded that it is not self, not a person who does so [1]. ******* Issues of Analysis: 1. When there is the natural movement of the body without the intention of conveying a meaning does the rúpa of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti rúpa, arise ? 2. When one performs kusala kamma or akusala kamma through the body should there always be the doorway of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti rúpa? The sources which support the conclusion of the analysis: 1. Atthasåliní, the Commentary to the Dhammasangani, Buddhist Psychological Ethics: Expositor I, Book I, Part III, Discourse on Doors, and Expositor II, Book II, Ch 3: Derived Rúpas, bodily intimation. 2. The ³Dispeller of Delusion², the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, Ch 6: Analysis of Dependent Origination, Suttanta Division (144, Ignorance has twentyfive characteristics; by the doors of kamma). 3. Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 61, 62, Description of the Aggregates (the two rúpas of intimation, viññatti). 4. The Commentary to the Visuddhimagga, the Paramattha Mañjuså, the Mahå-tíka, the explanation ³by rúpakkhandha². 5. Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Manual of Abhidhamma, and the Tíka, the Abhidhammattha Vibhåviní. Conclusion regarding the analysis of the first issue: When there is the natural movement of the body, without the intention to convey a meaning, there is no rúpa of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti. The sources that explain the reasons for this conclusion: I: The Atthasåliní, Expositor I, Book I, Part III, Discourse on Doors, states: ³Because it is a capacity of communicating, it is called Œintimation¹.² In the Paramattha Mañjuså, the Mahå-Tíka of the Visuddhimagga, in the explanation, by rúpakkhandha, we read: ³...it is called intimation, viññatti, because it makes known. What does it make known? An intention. Through means of what? Through the body. In what way? By the movement of the body in that way.² Thus it is clear that the rúpa of bodily intimation is a rúpa originated by citta which has the intention of conveying a meaning through the body. Whereas, when one stands, walks, sits or lies down naturally, without there being citta which wishes to convey a meaning, there is no rúpa of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti, but there are only vikåra rúpas, rúpas of changeability [2] originating from citta that merely intends to move. II: The rúpa that is intimation, viññatti rúpa, must be different from the rúpas of changeability, the vikåra rúpas, even though in some texts the three vikåra rúpas are classified together with the two viññatti rúpas as five vikåra rúpas. Viññatti rúpa is different from the vikåra rúpas, because viññatti rúpa arises and falls away together with the citta that wishes to convey a meaning by it [3]. In order to have clear understanding of the rúpas of intimation and the rúpas of changeability, we should consider the six groups of rúpa originating from citta (as shown in the Abhidhammata Sangaha and its subcommentary, the Abhidhammattha-vibhåviní). Moreover, we should consider the groups of rúpa originating from temperature, utu, and nutrition, ahåra [4]. Footnotes 1. I have added this introduction. See also my ³The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena², Ch 6, on http://www.zolag.co.uk . 2. Rúpas arise in groups, kalapas consisting of at least eight rúpas: the four great Elements of Earth (solidity), Water (cohesion), Fire (temperature) and Wind (motion or pressure), and in addition the rúpas of colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essense. These are the eight inseparable rúpas. In addition there can be other rúpas, such as the three vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahutå, plasticity, mudutå, and wieldiness, kammaññatå. 3. Rúpa lasts seventeen moments of citta, but the rúpa of intimation is not concrete matter but a change in rúpas as we shall see. The rúpa of intimation lasts only one moment of citta, whereas the vikåra rúpas last seventeen moments of citta. 4. There are four factors from which rúpas originate: kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. 19290 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)1.Cetasikas As Designers. A shortlived cabinet. Dear Nina, Thanks for your attention.Understanding should come first and then practice should be followed.So,I am trying to reveal the easily- understandable message to the group.Here is inline text reply as well. (Htoo). --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > I like this simile, it is refreshing. Especially the different kinds of > ministers: permanent and flexible, destructive and constructive. Good for > children as well. Did you find this in a textbook, or did you think of it > yourself? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, To be honest,it is my realisation from reading Dhamma literature that makes me these simile.This expression is not a copy from any sources. (Htoo) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- she > said we should really consider this in our life. After seeing there are > cittas with the flexible minister of vitakka, applied thought, which strikes > again and again on the object. Quite different from just seeing which does > not need vitakka in order to see. This helps us to better understand the > difference between seeing and thinking, which arises so shortly after > seeing. > Nina > op 29-01-2003 20:20 schreef htootintnaing op > htootintnaing@y...: > > > Everybody has one and the only one mind(from science point of view).Actually > > mind has as army of > > soldiers 19291 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your message which is crystal clear to me. As you described,Rupa of that kind that is two Vinattirupas called Kayavinattirupa and Vacivinattirupa have lifespan as long as citta that creates it lives. I am looking forward to more messages from you. With respects, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 1 > Bodily intimation, kåya viññatti rúpa, is a kind of rúpa, that originates > from citta. It does not originate from the other three factors that can > produce rúpa: kamma, temperature and nutrition. Bodily intimation originates > from citta that intends to convey a meaning. For example, when we > gesticulate, citta produces bodily intimation so that our intention is > expressed. > Speech intimation, vací viññatti rúpa, is another kind of rúpa that > originates from citta that intends to convey a meaning. . 19292 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 0:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 41, , contemplation and insight, careful noticing Dear Nina, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > > Dear Kom, > Thank you for your excellent explanation and reminder. See below, adding a > little. > > N; that is the qu we should always ask ourselves; before we realize it, it > is wrong again. But so good to know where we are wrong. On the other hand, > what Larry says can also be taken in the right way. It is sati sampajanna, > not self, who carefully notices. Careful, because it needs a refined > awareness and understanding to discern the different characteristics that > appear. Yes. I definitely agree with you. It is the awareness and wisdom who are careful, and not the akusala states that are mired in ignorance. > > ever more subtle kilesa. > N: We heard A. Sujin speak many times about detachment, that the > Path is all > the way about detachment. We can repeat this, but, so difficult to really > know what true detachment is. If we know more our attachment, we may > understand what detachment is, what are your views about this? Theoretical > understanding about detachment is not enough. I also agree with you here. Without knowing the different between the states with attachment, and the states without attachment, how can there be the (beginning) knowledge of the path of detachment. We hear from many suttas, when people asked the Buddha to explain to them the path (or the practice) in brief, and he said that the path leads to comprehension, detachment, enlightenment, and nibbana. We may not be able to find out for ourselves if the path that we are on leads to enlightenment or nibbana or not, but we can know, little by little, if we begin to understand more about nama and rupa, and if this leads to more attachment. If we don't know attachment as a reality, not just conceptually, how could we know that we are on the right path? > N: I do not believe any theory could work. The wise consideration is most > important but often forgotten. It is the follow up to listening. > However, I > find it difficult to explain this to others. Some people say, out of real > concern, should I not start the real meditation now? They are > afraid that we > are lazy, doing nothing, or take the easy way. Can you add more? > That would > be helpful. I think this is a crucial point. I think we need to learn what the causes and the conditions of a reality is, at first conceptually, and then in reality. The Buddha teaches about causes and effects of all realities, do we understand the conditions for the nibbana to be realized? It is the supramundane path. Do we know the cause and conditions for the supramundane path to arise? It is the mundane path. What is mundane path? The direct knowledge of realities. What conditions the direct knowledge of realities? Hearing the true dhamma, wise consideration, and the appearance of realities. As for my self, there is also another way to see. People often say, I must do this and that in order to have panna. The most common one is, if I don't have attachment toward hearing the dhamma (or to do the utmost we can do to develop panna), then how could panna be developed? For me, the question is, is it possible to develop panna without these attachments (for some people), and I think the answer is yes. I can see for myself that attachment is not a pre-requisite of developing panna: there is no need for me to encourage it. How else could panna be developed then? When there is panna knowing the benefits of panna and nibbana, and the faults of samsara! This reminds of the sutta that the Buddha said that for a Bikkhu who (rightly) develops the 8-fold path, regardless of his attachment toward enlightenments, he will (eventually) be enlightened. No attachment required. kom 19293 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 0:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Love Hello Mike, James, Swee Boon, and All, How lovely to read your posts again, Mike. Yes, I think it is essential to know what the definition/s of the word 'love' is in a buddhist sense, and to know exactly what meaning the person using it attributes to it. The english word 'love' is so loosely used in so many different contexts, with so many gradations, that it almost has no meaning at all for clear communication. It has become just a 'filler' word indicating anything from slight approval to overpowering unwholesome emotions. When it it disguised Lobha - (raga (lust), tanha (greed) - 'it is a state of lack, need and want. It is always seeking fulfulment and lasting satisfaction, but its drive is inherently insatiable, and thus as long as it endures it maintains the sense of lack.' (Nyanaponika Thera). When I first read the Piyajatika sutta, I was unhappy at the Buddha's 'treatment' of a bereaved father. Nothing, I thought, could be more noble than the 'sacrificial' love a parent bears for their child. Even the grief (I thought) was noble. It was not 'natural' to expect people not to be attached to their children. But the Buddha (who named his son 'fetter') spoke the truth then and now - "The truth of the Truth-speaker's words doesn't change." 'Discourse on Love as the Origin of Unhappiness' - Piyajatika Sutta http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tipitaka/message/86 "Thus it is, householder! Thus it is, householder! Grief, lamentation, pain, distress and despair spring indeed from love; their source is love." "Venerable Sir, to whom would it ever occur thus: 'Grief, lamentation, pain, distress and despair spring indeed from love; their source is love'? Venerable Sir, pleasure and gladness spring indeed from love; their source is love." Displeased with and disapproving of what the Bhagava said, the householder rose from his seat and went away." So what sort of 'love' conduces to detachment. Are we back at only 'loving-kindness' or 'compassion', or is there more? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Neo, > > p.s. Also please note the suggestive similarity between 'lobha' and the > Indo-European root 'leubh' at http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE281.html > > Hi Christine--I think this topic is of great importance, because of the > utterly pervasive influence of lobha on everyday life and the liklihood of > mistaking it for mettaa, mudita etc. I think this is a real touchstone of > Buddhadhamma--does it conduce to detachment? > > mike 19294 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 0:15pm Subject: For Momo was (Re: Photo of Rusty) Hello Paul, Yes, Rusty is my dog. I'm sorry to hear that Momo is not with you anymore. It is sad when a loved dog has to leave us. May there have been a fortunate rebirth. Here is a poem for you Paul. It is written from a Christian perspective, but it is written by someone who has had a close relationship with a dog. metta, Christine 'Just my dog' by Gene Hill "He is my other eyes that can see above the clouds; my other ears that hear above the winds. He is the part of me that can reach out into the sea. He has told me a thousand times over that I am his reason for being: by the way he rests against my leg; by the way he thumps his tail at my smallest smile; by the way he shows his hurt when I leave without taking him. (I think it makes him sick with worry when he is not along to care for me.) When I am wrong, he is delighted to forgive. When I am angry, he clowns to make me smile. When I am happy, he is joy unbounded. When I am a fool, he ignores it. When I succeed, he brags. Without him, I am only another man. With him, I am all-powerful. He is loyalty itself. He has taught me the meaning of devotion. With him, I know a secret comfort and a private peace. He has brought me understanding where before I was ignorant. His head on my knee can heal my human hurts. His presence by my side is protection against my fears of dark and unknown things. He has promised to wait for me ... whenever ... wherever-- in case I need him. And I expect I will -- as I always have." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ajahn_paul " wrote: > Is Rusty ur dog??? > > one of my dogs momo, a chow, just passed away on 27/1/2003 at 9pm. > :(::::::: > 19295 From: James Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, , contemplation and insight, careful noticing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > N: Your last sentence, not misleading oneself, made me laugh. It is so true. > Good to remember that panna works its own way, it does its own thing, as you > say. Usually people do not believe this, they wonder how can it be. They > underestimate the power of panna. There is no need to concentrate first, so > that panna can know realities, but some people worry that panna is not fast > enough to know the present reality. They believe that they should sit and > watch what is going on. A. Sujin said: panna can shoot from very far and > very fast. It is compared to shooting at a target. We cannot grasp this yet. > The accumulation of panna is much slower than we would like, but here there > is attachment again. > N: I do not believe any theory could work. The wise consideration is most > important but often forgotten. It is the follow up to listening. However, I > find it difficult to explain this to others. Some people say, out of real > concern, should I not start the real meditation now? They are afraid that we > are lazy, doing nothing, or take the easy way. Can you add more? That would > be helpful. I think this is a crucial point. > Thank you very much, I do appreciate what you say. > Nina. Nina, I cannot believe my eyes. Are you actually stating that one doesn't need to meditate to know present realities...all one needs is panna? And where exactly do you think panna (wisdom) comes from if it isn't from meditation? Do you realize that this position is in direct contradiction to everything the Buddha taught? Does the Abhidhamma support this position? Where did you come up with this idea? It is no wonder that you have a hard time explaining this position to others because there is absolutely no justification/foundation for it. Also, who are the 'we' that you refer to. I'm starting to get the creeps. Have I stumbled into some kind of weird Abhidhamma cult and you are its leader? I'm sorry, but memorizing a bunch of Pali terms isn't going to bring anyone panna. The eightfold path is the path to panna...and the eightfold path includes meditation. Anyone who denies that is really out of touch with reality. Metta, James 19296 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:35pm Subject: Re: Buddhist books for Children Hi Sarah, Some sites that may be helpful are: 'Once upon a time' - a collection of Buddhist Stories 0n-line http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/story/index.html http://www.dhammabooks.com/ http://www.buddhistsupplies.com/sabskid.htm http://pobox.upenn.edu/~davidtoc/books.html metta, Chris 19297 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical Basis [was: All in a days work] Hi Sarah, First of all, Happy Chinese New Year!! It took me a while to reply this message. I read what you quoted from Helmuth Hecker's article. I would rather focus on the discourse Raja Sutta. The language in the discourse is not particularly unclear. King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika might be a worldling couple. I don't think it has anything to do with different interpretations of the statement "one fnds no one dearer than oneself" though. Regards, Victor 19298 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Love Hi Christine, Mike and everyone, Welcome back, Mike :-). Christine, I am having some major difficulties with the implications of non-attachment. Please put me out of my misery. Is the Buddhist path to the end of suffering a path to annihilation? When I bury my parents, I fully intend to be sad and bereaved. When my loved ones are hurt I fully intend to be hurt with them. I do not see a refuge in becoming a Zombie. I see no victory in emotional castration. Help me, Chris (charge it to Medicare :-)) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello Mike, James, Swee Boon, and All, > > How lovely to read your posts again, Mike. > > Yes, I think it is essential to know what the definition/s of the > word 'love' is in a buddhist sense, and to know exactly what meaning > the person using it attributes to it. The english word 'love' is so > loosely used in so many different contexts, with so many gradations, > that it almost has no meaning at all for clear communication. It has > become just a 'filler' word indicating anything from slight approval > to overpowering unwholesome emotions. When it it disguised Lobha - > (raga (lust), tanha (greed) - 'it is a state of lack, need and > want. It is always seeking fulfulment and lasting satisfaction, but > its drive is inherently insatiable, and thus as long as it endures it > maintains the sense of lack.' (Nyanaponika Thera). > > When I first read the Piyajatika sutta, I was unhappy at the > Buddha's 'treatment' of a bereaved father. Nothing, I thought, could > be more noble than the 'sacrificial' love a parent bears for their > child. Even the grief (I thought) was noble. It was not 'natural' > to expect people not to be attached to their children. But the > Buddha (who named his son 'fetter') spoke the truth then and now - > "The truth of the Truth-speaker's words doesn't change." > > 'Discourse on Love as the Origin of Unhappiness' - Piyajatika Sutta > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tipitaka/message/86 > "Thus it is, householder! Thus it is, householder! Grief, > lamentation, pain, distress and despair spring indeed from love; > their source is love." "Venerable Sir, to whom would it ever occur > thus: 'Grief, lamentation, pain, distress and despair spring indeed > from love; their source is love'? Venerable Sir, pleasure and > gladness spring indeed from love; their source is love." Displeased > with and disapproving of what the Bhagava said, the householder rose > from his seat and went away." > > So what sort of 'love' conduces to detachment. Are we back at > only 'loving-kindness' or 'compassion', or is there more? > > metta, > Christine 19299 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:30pm Subject: Fwd: Re: [dsg] Way 41, , contemplation and insight, careful noticing --- Dear Nina and Kom, Thanks for this dialogue. I recently bought a surfski, which is a kind of racing kayak about 5.6m long. Just got back from paddling a few kms of the Waikato river on this peaceful new zealand day. You know it seems that a glint of understanding is slowly developing despite my best intentions. By this I mean that most of the time "I" believe that I know what is right. But actually it is the gentle reminders of wise friends and appreciation of the Dhamma that leads to an acceptance and 'listening' (by this I mean 'listening' patiently to the changing 'voices' at the six doors ) and study of the present moment. "I" only get in the way. with respect RobertK p.s. "'Listening' patiently to the six doors": Its hard to do, most of the time we add our own thoughts and beliefs, without even realising it. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Kom, Thank you for your excellent explanation and reminder. See below, adding a little. It is sati sampajanna, not self, who carefully notices. Careful, because it needs a refined awareness and understanding to discern the different characteristics that appear. K: The "self" that notices would be (in realities) tanha, mana, > and ditthi. If one of these is noticing the dhamma, then it > is not satipatthana that is arising, but it is the dhamma, > if misunderstood, could condition wrong views (that it is > satipatthana). The self is immensely subtle: if we don't > understand (really understand) that the Buddha's path is > about detachment all the way, we might be misled by these > ever more subtle kilesa. N: We heard A. Sujin speak many times about detachment, that the Path is all the way about detachment. We can repeat this, but, so difficult to really know what true detachment is. If we know more our attachment, we may understand what detachment is, what are your views about this? Theoretical understanding about detachment is not enough. K: Panna is accumulated. When there is enough accumulation, it > does its own thing properly. No need to be extra careful > (except in not misleading oneself). N: Your last sentence, not misleading oneself, made me laugh. It is so true. Good to remember that panna works its own way, it does its own thing, as you say. Usually people do not believe this, they wonder how can it be. They underestimate the power of panna. There is no need to concentrate first, so that panna can know realities, but some people worry that panna is not fast enough to know the present reality. They believe that they should sit and watch what is going on. A. Sujin said: panna can shoot from very far and very fast. It is compared to shooting at a target. We cannot grasp this yet. The accumulation of panna is much slower than we would like, but here there is attachment again. > K: The Buddha's compares the development of insights to wearing > away the knife's handle. It is gradual, and hardly > noticeable. When you goes for the accelerated schedule > theory, or the big-bang theory, the task at hand is already > being neglected. We should firmly remember the conditions > of panna: sitting near the true friend, hearing the true > dhamma, wise consideration, and follow the teachings the > best we can. N: I do not believe any theory could work. The wise consideration is most important but often forgotten. It is the follow up to listening. However, I find it difficult to explain this to others. Some people say, out of real concern, should I not start the real meditation now? They are afraid that we are lazy, doing nothing, or take the easy way. Can you add more? That would be helpful. I think this is a crucial point. Thank you very much, I do appreciate what you say. Nina. --- End forwarded message --- 19300 From: nidive Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Love Hi James, > (ps. I thought his post was excellent also. > It should be, it was plagarized from Lord Buddha.) Have I misled you? Haven't I included the reference sutta? In one sense of the word, aren't all of us plagarizing the Buddha's words? I think the Buddha encourages us to plagarize his words whenever APPROPRIATE. He had no attachment to his Dhamma. He did not patent nor copyright his Dhamma. He meant to share it with every being. What's important is whether we understand the meaning of his words. Attachment (or Delight) is the root of suffering and stress. Would the Buddha, knowing thus, be attached to the Dhamma or to metta? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19301 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:21pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Love Hi James & All, In Thailand there's a tradition, when someone explains the Buddha's teachings / repeats the Buddha's teachings, we can rejoice in the person's good deed [have you even run into those who said Sathu after a sermon, for example?]. However, if we happen to be forgetful and don't rejoice after seeing such deed, when we hear other people's anumoddhana, we can then remember to also anumoddhana for the person's good deed. I now have the opportunity to anumoddhana Neo's good deeds. I thank Mike for this opportunity. Good friend who reminds us to do good thing is rare. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: James [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 8:14 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Love > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > > No offense, but I don't understand the point of this post. ... 19302 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:42pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Love OOO, I forgot, But please remember this group policy: Please also try to avoid messages that consist only of off-topic banter, chit-chat or "me too" type responses. So, better yet, you can anumoddhana and add some more discussions.... kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Kom Tukovinit [mailto:kom@a...] > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 8:22 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Love > > > Hi James & All, > 19303 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhist books for Children Hi Christine, Thankyou for these very helpful links. I've just had a quick initial look and they seem very helpful as your links usually are. It's rather ironic that as I'm 'winding down' after teaching very intensively for a long time, that I become aware of all these resources available on Buddhist books for children. I've been lazy to check and I suppose I've always been conscious about not 'pushing a party-line' as well with the kids. A little caution to the winds, these days...;-) Btw, the Buddhadatta New Pali Course you asked about was available at Colombo airport and so probably easily available at bookshops in Colombo too. Maybe they have a link too.....or you could consider a return visit with the missing item that turned up at Brisbane airport .... Metta, Sarah ======== --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Some sites that may be helpful are: > > 'Once upon a time' - a collection of Buddhist Stories 0n-line > http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/story/index.html > > http://www.dhammabooks.com/ > > http://www.buddhistsupplies.com/sabskid.htm > > http://pobox.upenn.edu/~davidtoc/books.html 19304 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Love Hi Herman, and all, I'm happy to discuss things with you - only remember that this is my flawed understanding of the way it is. Hopefully others will contribute their knowledge and correction. I am operating from the perspective of 'the whole deal' - anatta, anicca, dukkha, kamma, rebirth, beginningless time, paticcasamuppada - the lot. I don't think 'designer buddhism' works, that's just a 'self' poking holes in the bits it doesn't like. I tend to try to find out for myself as much as I can about 'the truth of what really is' from what comes through the sense doors in daily life. I take the rest on trust until it can be confirmed (or not) in some way. So I guess I'm still drifting about on the misty flats, groping my way with only the light of the Dhamma as a guide. You ask: 'Is the Buddhist path to the end of suffering a path to annihilation? " This sounds like a question I once asked about how do we know our practice aimed at Nibbana doesn't make us all just lemmings running towards the cliff edge. No-one answered. I guess it all depends on 'what' it is that you think currently exists that is 'annihilated'. To understand the goal of buddhism the cessation of suffering, nibbana, I think there has to be a complete understanding of what dukkha and anatta are first. I think without that understanding one will tend to fall back on either a belief in the annihilation of the ego, or some eternal state of existence into which an ego or self enters, or with which it merges. When you bury your parents you will be sad and bereaved - that is, if you don't die first. Our death is certain, only the time of our death is uncertain. Working in a hospital, I am made aware daily of the seemingly 'unfair' and unexpected calamities that befall very surprised people, most of them not in old age. If any dear one of mine dies before me, I shall also be full of sorrow (and there is a good chance that my mother and my dog are likely candidates, realistically speaking). Ananda who spent decades with the Buddha and heard all of his teachings was still sad at his death. No need to become a zombie or emotionally castrated - and it is impossible to 'will' that to happen anyway. We are what we are. We will do what we will do as a result of accumulations and conditions. Sadness and grief (domanassa) is a mentally painful sensation, and in Abhidhamma terms is the cetasika-vedana. It is kammically unwholesome, but, for me at this stage, unavoidable. A few suttas for your consideration regarding dukkha and the ending of dukkha: Asu Sutta 'Tears' "Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- are greater than the water in the four great oceans. "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." Kotthita Sutta - Kotthita asks Sariputta "is it the case that there is anything else?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-174.html Nibbama Sutta 'Unbinding' "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant." When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-034.html Upaya Sutta 'Attached' "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-053.html There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to- being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-03a.html metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Christine, Mike and everyone, > > Welcome back, Mike :-). > > Christine, I am having some major difficulties with the implications > of non-attachment. Please put me out of my misery. Is the Buddhist > path to the end of suffering a path to annihilation? > > When I bury my parents, I fully intend to be sad and bereaved. When > my loved ones are hurt I fully intend to be hurt with them. > > I do not see a refuge in becoming a Zombie. > I see no victory in emotional castration. > > Help me, Chris (charge it to Medicare :-)) > > All the best > > Herman 19305 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentous occasion nr 2 Herman --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Jon, <> I admire this response, Herman. To simply acknowledge the difference between one's own views and the teachings, rather than reject anything that doesn't appeal, takes a certain kind of courage (related, in my own case at least, to the conceit that wonders how I could be wrong :-)). <> I think this would be a fairly normal response. On the face of it, the story-line runs counter to standards we have been brought up to consider fair and decent. Actually, there are a number of aspects to the teachings that run counter to either our taught values or innately held beliefs, but many of these things we have now come to recognise as having merit or as more than likely being in accordance with the way things are. <> Yes, we want more feeling and emotion, and any feeling/emotion is better than none. This is also normal, but like many other aspects of our makeup, we need to ask, is it to the benefit of ourselves or others? <> Thanks. And the same to you. Jon 19306 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intention, willing and no-control (was, Descriptive vs Prescriptive) Howard I previously responded on the first part of your post. My apologies for being rather slow in getting round to the rest of it. --- upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Jon - > "And what is the *exertion to develop*? > "There is the case where a monk *develops* the *mindfulness factor* > for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, > resulting in letting go. He *develops* the *investigation of > qualities factor* for Awakening... dependent on seclusion... > dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. This is *called the > exertion to develop*." > > So it is the *developing* that is called the *exertion to develop*. > To my reading, this can only be referring to the moment of actual > arising of kusala, rather than any thoughts/intention/resolve about > its development. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That may be so. It may well be that, despite the misleading name (or misleading translation) "exertion to develop", what is referred to here is the developing, itself, which is a consequence in part of the "effort to develop". ---------------------------------------------- J: I have checked the PTS translation ('Gradual Sayings, Vol. II, p.15) and have also found a translation of the same sutta in Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary'. Both confirm this rendering which, as I have noted, indicates that it is the actual developing that is called the exertion to develop. There is no suggestion that I can see of development being something that occurs as a consequence of an effort to develop (conventional or otherwise). I believe that when we come across something like this that runs counter to our intuitive views we should resist the temptation to immediately rationalise or reject it, and should simply acknowledge the difference that exists and keep it in mind for future reference. If later we find it confirmed by other textual sources, then maybe we need to consider further our views on the subject. Just out of interest, here is the translation of the same passage from 'Buddhist Dictionary' (under the entry for 'padhaana'): "What now is the effort to develop? The monk develops the factors of enlightenment, bent on solitude, on detachment, on extinction, and ending in deliverance, namely: - mindfulness (sati), - investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya), - energy (viriya), - rapture (píti), - tranquillity (passaddhi), - concentraton (samádhi), - equanimity (upekkhá). This is called the effort to develop." (A. IV, 14). Note the reference to the fact that the monk '... develops the factors of enlightenment'. I think this points very much to right effort as being something that involves panna of the level of insight, rather than being some form of conventional effort. > If the resolve 'to have kusala' in > order to be free from the akusala of that moment was itself kusala, > then there would be no need 'to have kusala' (since the resolve > itself is kusala). The same goes for 'attempting to be mindful' -- > this must be a moment when mindfulness is absent, otherwise no > attempt would be necessary. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: We can "resolve" to have kusala thought and to mindful all day long, but that resolve, by itself, is insufficient. But hearing from the Buddha the aggregate of conditions needed for any given result, together with a strong desire for that result, may enable the arising of the volition to bring about certain remaining conditions that lead to path factors. ... ----------------------------------------------- Yes, I agree with you here, as long as that 'strong desire' is the kusala factor of 'wholesome wish-to-do', and is not equated with the conventional wish to develop the path, which I'm sure all of us on this list, and the rest of the Buddha community at large, have in abundance anyway, without needing to cultivate more. But regardless of how we regard the 'effort' factor, we also need to identify and understand correctly all of the factors that you refer to here as the 'aggregate of conditions' that were laid down by the Buddha, for these are all necessary prerequisites without which the development of insight cannot occur. On this score I'd like to suggest that we need to distinguish between the folloiwng: (a) the conditions the Buddha gave as necessary and indispensable for one and all -- regardless of present level of attainment or potential for attainment -- to develop the insight that leads to enlightenment, and (b) the conditions he gave, specially tailored for those with sufficiently highly developed panna and samatha, as being conducive to the attainment of enlightenment 'both ways' (i.e., enlightenment based on jhana). To my reading, the suttas make a fairly clear distinction between the 2 classes of 'audience', and I believe it's a distinction we should keep in mind when drawing any conclusions about how a given sutta relates to us. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: ... By certain physical and mental actions, in the presence of other conditions, concentration and mindfulness, for example, can be increased. ... ----------------------------------------------- Yes, but surely what we need to be clear about is what these 'physical and mental actions' and 'other conditions' expounded by the Buddha were. As I think we have agreed, well-intentioned effort is not necessarily 'right' effort for these purposes, that is, it can just as easily be 'wrong' effort. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: .... And volition plays a crucial role in this, and in all human action. ... ----------------------------------------------- Conventional volition plays a role in all actions that are conventionally regarded as 'volitional' ones (but not, of course, in the many non-volitional actions that occur in the course of a day). In dhamma terms, however, 'volition' is said to be present with every moment of consciousness regardless of the 'volitional' or otherwise nature of that moment of consciousness. As we all know from our own experience in life, kusala and akusala consciousness are not dependent on conventional volition for their arising, and furthermore, either may arise despite our (conventional) intention to have the other arise. Jon 19307 From: Sarah Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Many Names of Buddha Dear Ven Dhammapiyo (& Des), Thank you for sharing the “Many Names for the Buddha” with us. I agree full-heartedly that it’s very helpful to share any reminders which help us reflect on the qualities of the Buddha. I particularly like the way they are listed in the post with the sutta references. --- Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo wrote: > . > Dhamma requires practice but it begins with a serious commitment to > study > and learn. "The Many Names of the Buddha" is something that can be used > for > reflection akin to Samatha meditation. The references given beside them > can > provide a nice series of daily type reading for reflection, study, > practice, > and application. .... I agree with these comments. Recently in the ‘Way’ corner, from the commentary we read about the 4 objects of samatha meditation which can be frequently reflected on in daily life - Nina wrote: “sabbatthikakamma.t.thaananti buddhaanussati mettaa mara.nassati asubhabhaavanaa ca. N: The words , the meditation subjects on all occasions, mean: recollection of the Buddha, loving-kindness, mindfulness of death, and meditation of foulness.” I appreciate any reminders on these topics. ..... > ... we know and witness that a Refuge in Truth is the only real > protection in these troubled times. .... Yes and often we need to be reminded. Thank you. ..... > May this everyone here well, happy, safe and secure, prospering, and > ever > mindful of the Gift That Excels All Others, > > And with gratitude to Des for reminding us of the Taste of the Medicine > That > Excels All Other Tastes, ..... Thank you for these blessings and helpful comments. I’m glad to hear reminders again from Des. With metta, Sarah ===== > The > many names for the Buddha > > The following are a few of the many epithets that appear in the > suttas in reference to the Buddha. > > The indicated sutta passages contain examples. > > All-seeing: Iti 112 > Awakened one(buddho): AN XI.12 > Best of those who can be tamed: Iti 112 > Blessed one(bhagava): AN XI.12 > Bull among men: Sn III.11 > Bull among seers: Sn III.11 > Bull of the Sakyan clan: Sn III.11 > Caravan leader: Iti 84 > Conqueror of beasts: Sn III.11 > Consummate in knowledge & conduct (vijja-carana-sampanno): AN XI.12 > Dispeller of darkness: Iti 38 > Endowed with all the foremost marks: Snp III.1 > Expert with regard to the world (lokavidu): AN XI.12 > First in the world: Iti 84 > Foremost jewel: Sn III.11 > Foremost of all people: Sn III.11 > Foremost of charioteers: Thag VI.9 > Foremost of those who can cross: Iti 112 > Foremost sage: Sn III.11 > Giver of the deathless: MN 18 > Great One (naga): Ud V.6 > Great seer: Sn IV.14 > Kinsman of the sun: Sn IV.14 > Peerless bull: SN I.38 > Rightly self-awakened (samma-sambuddho): AN XI.12 > Shower of the way: MN 107 > Supreme among those who can be released: Iti 112 > Tathagata (the one "Thus-gone" or "Thus-come"): Iti 112 > Teacher of divine & human beings (sattha deva-manussanam): Iti 112 > Thoroughly mature: Iti 112 > Ultimate leader: Thag VI.9 > Unconquered conqueror: Iti 112 > Unexcelled trainer for those people fit to be tamed (anuttaro purisa- > damma-sarathi): AN XI.12 > Unsurpassed doctor and surgeon: Iti 100 > Well-gone one (sugato): AN XI.12 > Wielder of power: Iti 112 > Worthy one (arahant): AN XI.12 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > See also: Refuge: An Introduction to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha > by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 19308 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Frank --- "fcckuan " wrote: > Hi Jon (and Nina) If as you say, Frank (and I agree with you here), 'liberating insights don't occur while one is absorbed in jhana', then in what respect can it be said that 'jhanic level of concentration is a necessary power tool to enable one to have insight into destruction of the taints'. In other words, exactly how does the connection take effect, as you understand it? <> Is this explanation for why many people were able to attain enlightenment without first attaining jhana found in the suttas or commentaries (or is it simply a convenient rationalisation ;-))!)? <> Just to clarify use of terms here. There is (a) 'views and understanding at an intellectual level' (which we agree is not insight), and there is (b) 'liberating insight for destruction of the taints' (by which I think you mean some level of enlightenment, or at least the vipassana nanas). But what about the moments of 'ordinary' insight that must be accumulated in order to for these moments of liberating insight to eventually occur? Can there not be a level of direct awareness of a presently arising dhamma without the need for jhanic level of concentration? <> If you have the sutta reference, that would be much appreciated. Just on a minor point, once stream-entry has been gained, final release is assured. The factors that are indispensable for the attainment of arahantship are no different from the factors that are indispensable for the attainment of stream-entry (see sutta reference below) Jon SN 55.55 - 58 (CDB translation) "Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry." [55] And the same 4 factors are also said to lead: to the realization of the fruit of once-returning [56] to the realization of the fruit of non-returning [57] to the realization of the fruit of arahantship [58] 19309 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Love Herman --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Christine, Mike and everyone, You said: "I do not see a refuge in becoming a Zombie. I see no victory in emotional castration." I appreciated Chris' thoughtful response. I have another sutta to add to her several (this one perhaps a little more direct :-)) The Buddha pointed out that we have an innate belief in the 'worth' of certain feelings and emotions which, by any objective measure, are unpleasant and of no benefit to ourselves or to others. We ourselves are blind to this, although it is clear to anyone else. In this respect, the Buddha likens us to a leper (caution: gory details ahead). From the Magandiya Sutta (MN 75): "Now suppose that there was a leper covered with sores & infections, devoured by worms, picking the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, cauterizing his body over a pit of glowing embers. The more he cauterized his body over the pit of glowing embers, the more disgusting, foul-smelling, & putrid the openings of his wounds would become, and yet he would feel a modicum of enjoyment & satisfaction because of the itchiness of his wounds. In the same way, beings not free from passion for sensual pleasures -- devoured by sensual craving, burning with sensual fever -- indulge in sensual pleasures. The more they indulge in sensual pleasures, the more their sensual craving increases and the more they burn with sensual fever, and yet they feel a modicum of enjoyment & satisfaction dependent on the five strings of sensuality." (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn075.html) [The way this reference has been explained to me, the leper loses feeling in the affected limbs and will try anything, including burning, to reaffirm that the limb still has sense.] As you can see from this, the Buddha saw the root cause of this behaviour as attachment to sense pleasures. Like leprosy, it leads it's owner to act in a manner that makes the effects of the condition worse rather than better. I hope this helps (even if not immediately!) Jon 19310 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Support for the "Disposition-to-Remain" Defintion of 'Ekagatta' Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo Naing, Larry, Sarah, Robert, and all involved with this > thread - > > > From the ATI Glossary: > ekaggatarammana: Singleness of preoccupation; "one-pointedness." In > > meditation, the mental quality that allows one's attention to > remain > collected and focused on the chosen meditation object. > Ekaggatarammana > reaches full maturity upon the development of the fourth level of > jhana. > > (Howard comment: Note the idea of allowing the attention to > *remain* > collected and focussed on the object. This seems close to the > disposition for > "the same" object to remain during subsequent mindstates.) Thanks for bringing up this term. It's a new one for me. Does the Glossary give any references for 'ekaggatarammana' in the texts (I've not been able to find it in the sources I have available)? Thanks. Jon 19311 From: Sarah Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical Basis [was: All in a days work] Hi Victor and a few others who’ve crept in ;-), --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > First of all, Happy Chinese New Year!! > > It took me a while to reply this message. .... Kung Hei Fat Choy! I hope you and your family are enjoying some celebrations too. I’m so glad I haven’t lost you or that our little discussion hasn’t gone dead;-) ..... > > I read what you quoted from Helmuth Hecker's article. I would > rather focus on the discourse Raja Sutta. The language in the > discourse is not particularly unclear. ..... I’m happy to drop the article and focus on the Sutta. The difficulty is when two people read the same ‘not particularly unclear’ words in the sutta and come to different conclusions as you neatly summarised before: ***** V:“One interpretation to the statement "one finds no one dearer than oneself" is that one is attached to oneself. The attachment to self is to be abandoned. While another interpretation to the statement is that one is dear to oneself. In this interpretation, the statement "one finds no one dearer than oneself" does not mean "one is attached to oneself".” ***** Interpretation no 1) (which also relates to comments James helpfully just wrote as explained by his teacher) continues to stress in the sutta that just as one is most attached to oneself, so are others (as K.Pasenadi and Q.Mallika found out and had confirmed by the Buddha).Therefore we should treat others well and not cause them any harm. Interpretation no 2) suggests the sutta does not refer to any attachment and that ‘holding dear’ refers to wholesome states and in particular to metta, directed in the first place to oneself. Victor, please let me know if this further elaboration on your summary is correct. I agree that other modern commentators reflections or interpretations can be ignored. When we discussed the topic once before, I posted part of the commentary. Would you like to discuss this in more detail? ..... > King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika might be a worldling couple. I > don't think it has anything to do with different interpretations of > the statement "one fnds no one dearer than oneself" though. ..... The reason I mentioned this was because it is apparent in other suttas that K.Pasenadi in particular has all the usual run-of-the-mill defilements and difficulties that we have and when Q.Mallika dies, even though for much of his marriage he had not really appreciated her fine qualities, he is very shaken as a result of his strong attachment. “And when the rajah heard this (Q. Mallika had died), he was sorely grieved and sick at heart, his shoulders drooped, his mouth fell and he sat brooding, unable to speak.” (AN, bk of 5s,49) In the previous sutta (48), the Buddha had discussed how “to the unlearned, average man............................when the end is near, he mourns, pines, weeps, wails, beats his breast and falls into distraction. Monks, this man is called an unlearned average man; pierced by the poisoned dart of sorrow, he just torments himself.” In other words, love or attachment brings sorrow. On the contrary, we read that “to the learned Ariyan disciple also, monks, ageing brings old age; but when he is old, he does reflect in that foresaid way <>....and when age comes, he does not mourn nor pine nor weep nor wail nor beat his breast nor fall into distraction....drawn out is the poisoned dart of sorrow with which the unlearned average man torments himself.......”(AN, bk of 5s,48). Like Herman has suggested, for ‘unlearned average men’ (and women) like K.Pasenadi and ourselves, however much of the Teachings we’ve heard -- and K.Pasenadi had listened to the Buddha on numerous occasions --there is bound to be attachment and there is bound to be grief. At least, according to the first intepretation above, the king and queen were honest enough to recognise that the attachment to self is strongest of all. After all, when the’dear’ one dies, it is in truth the strong attachment to oneself, one’s own feelings and one’s own loss that brings the sorrow, isn’t it? Conveniently, Christine just posted from the Piyajatika Sutta (see end of post). As she mentioned, it’s not easy to accept the truth in the words. Here, piya, translated as ‘dear’ in the Raja sutta, is translated as love. I’d be interested to know whether you consider it relevant to our discussions at all. Chris also asks: “So what sort of 'love' conduces to detachment. Are we back at only 'loving-kindness' or 'compassion', or is there more?” ..... I think we come back to seeing the value of ‘dispassion’,‘equanimity’ and ‘guarding of the sense doors’. In other words, the giving up of attachment at moments of dana, sila and bhavana. When we see more and more that what we take as ‘love’ for the other(s) is mostly attachment to oneself (MY husband, wife, child, dog and so on), we can begin to see just a little what a ‘poisoned dart’ it is and so different from moments of selfless generosity, kindness or mindfulness. Does the attachment and clinging which we so often think of as ‘love’ ever benefit those around us....hmmm? Victor, I know you’ll happily ignore parts of the post which you don’t consider relevant to our chat;-) Where would you like to go from here? Would you care to go through the complete commentary (about 3 pages)- I’d be happy to post a paragraph at a time if you don’t run away;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Mike, I greatly appreciate your reflections on these threads as well and will be glad to hear anything further you can share with us. ================================== 19312 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Support for the "Disposition-to-Remain" Defintion of 'Ekagatta' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo Naing, Larry, Sarah, Robert, > and all involved with this > > thread - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Dhamma Friend, Thanks for your post.Ekagatta is to sustain the citta at the chosen object,at each next successive citta.If all Javanacittas are focussed on the intended object successively,it will become Samadhi.If this Samadhi is free from Sampayutta-Nivarana and all other members of Jhana are evidently working their business,then Samadhi becomes Jhana. Ekagatta in Dvi-Pancavinana is not samadhi or Jhana.Concentration is just a layman term. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19313 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling James --- "James " wrote: > Hi Frank (and Jon): .. .. .. > It appears to me as if Jon is suggesting that formal, Yogic > meditation > practice isn't necessary to follow what the Buddha taught. Nothing > could be further from the truth! Simply reading the suttas, > studying > dhamma, and memorizing Abhidhamma terminology, without formal > meditation practice, is like reading a menu but never ordering the > food > and eating it. That may titillate the mind, but the belly will > remain empty. An interesting analogy, James. But did the Buddha ever say that panna could not be developed without formal yogic meditation (whatever that may be)? Jon 19314 From: fcckuan Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:37am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Jon, The next time I come across that reference to mindfulness not being fully developed without right concentration I'll post. Don't know it off hand. The triple knowledge: 1) knowledge of past lives 2) knowledge of destination of beings at death 3) knowledge of the destruction of the taints Proficiency in Jhana is necessary for the first two, you question the 3rd one. The reason I believe it's necessary for the 3rd as well is because it makes sense to me intellectually and intuitively that one who has such a high level of samatha and concentration and can directly view reality in such fine granularity to perceive the subtle processes that identify with this mind body complex that we take to be "I", and can even trace these "beings" through past lives and future lives revolving in samsara, it makes sense to me that these people with jhanic level of concentration can also stop their own transmigration by nonclinging to these subtle processes that make the illusion of self-identiy at the moment of physical death. One of the metta suttas gives the impression that through cultivating metta alone one can achieve enlightenment. Similarly, I think people can over extrapolate things reading suttas about what level of concentration is necessary for enlightenment. Perhaps you do need less than jhanic level of concentration to achieve full liberation. I don't know for sure (yet), but in the meantime, I'm going to shoot for the path that seems to give me the best odds for success. In other words, I believe people who can see reality in such clarity and detail via jhanic level concentration, even if it's not absolutely necessary, have the best chance of disentangling themselves from cyclic existence. The other reason to master jhanas: What if it turns out that the canon and possible lack of arahants alive today does not give quite enough clear instruction on how to get to full enlightenment? If that is the case that we don't have an unbroken lineage of enlightenend beings who can point the way to people who are ripe, which I certainly believe is a pretty strong possibility, jhanic proficiency seems like the best bet for using existing knowledge base of dhamma and making the leap and working out the details to carry it out all the way through on the own. -fk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Frank > > --- "fcckuan " wrote: > > Hi Jon (and Nina) > > If as you say, Frank (and I agree with you here), 'liberating > insights don't occur while one is absorbed in jhana', then in what > respect can it be said that 'jhanic level of concentration is a > necessary power tool to enable one to have insight into destruction > of the taints'. In other words, exactly how does the connection take > effect, as you understand it? > > < practiced jhanas (in this lifetime).>> > > Is this explanation for why many people were able to attain > enlightenment without first attaining jhana found in the suttas or > commentaries (or is it simply a convenient rationalisation ;-))!)? > > < produces insights that affect our views and understanding at an > intellectual level, which can greatly reduce dukkha, but jhanic level > of concentration is necessary for liberating insight for destruction > of the taints.>> > > Just to clarify use of terms here. There is (a) 'views and > understanding at an intellectual level' (which we agree is not > insight), and there is (b) 'liberating insight for destruction of the > taints' (by which I think you mean some level of enlightenment, or at > least the vipassana nanas). But what about the moments of 'ordinary' > insight that must be accumulated in order to for these moments of > liberating insight to eventually occur? Can there not be a level of > direct awareness of a presently arising dhamma without the need for > jhanic level of concentration? > > < be brought to full power without jhanic level of right concentration. > Thus, a path built on mindfulness and abhidhamma study can take you > perhaps to stream entry, but not all the way to the other shore until > right concentration (and right view of course) is fully developed.>> > > If you have the sutta reference, that would be much appreciated. > > Just on a minor point, once stream-entry has been gained, final > release is assured. The factors that are indispensable for the > attainment of arahantship are no different from the factors that are > indispensable for the attainment of stream-entry (see sutta reference > below) > > Jon > > SN 55.55 - 58 (CDB translation) > "Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to > the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? Association > with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, > practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when > developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of > stream-entry." [55] > > And the same 4 factors are also said to lead: > to the realization of the fruit of once-returning [56] > to the realization of the fruit of non-returning [57] > to the realization of the fruit of arahantship [58] > 19315 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Support for the "Disposition-to-Remain" Defintion of 'Ekagatta' Htoo Naing Thanks for these comments. In an earlier post you mentioned the role of vitakka in allowing/arranging for citta to take the same object for successive moments, in the development of samatha (I hope I've got that right). Would you like to say something about the respective roles of ekeggata and vitakka in samatha bhavana, as regards the citta taking the meditation subject repeatedly? Thanks Jon --- "htootintnaing " wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friend, > > Thanks for your post.Ekagatta is to sustain the citta at the chosen > object,at each next successive citta.If all Javanacittas are > focussed > on the intended object successively,it will become Samadhi.If this > Samadhi is free from Sampayutta-Nivarana and all other members of > Jhana are evidently working their business,then Samadhi becomes > Jhana. > > Ekagatta in Dvi-Pancavinana is not samadhi or Jhana.Concentration > is just a layman term. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 19316 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Jon, > An interesting analogy, James. But did the Buddha ever say that > panna could not be developed without formal yogic meditation > (whatever that may be)? I think the Buddha never said that. A supporting sutta would be (if I am not wrong): Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 Samadhi Sutta Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19317 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > An interesting analogy, James. But did the Buddha ever say that > panna could not be developed without formal yogic meditation > (whatever that may be)? > > Jon Hi Jon, Yes, the Buddha did say that meditation is necessary to achieve panna (wisdom leading to liberation). However, remember, meditation can take different forms but it is not, by any means, simply observing `present realities' when they arise with mindfulness using everyday sense perception: Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." -- "Venerable Sir," they said by way of reply. The Blessed One then spoke as follows: "These ten essentials (dhammas) must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth (to live the holy life). What are these ten? 10. "'Have I gained superhuman faculties? Have I gained that higher wisdom so that when I am questioned (on this point) by fellow-monks at the last moment (when death is approaching) I will have no occasion to be depressed and downcast?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth. Discourse on the Ten Dhammas; (Dasa-dhamma sutta]) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/protection.html#s1 Jon, you see, the Buddha equates superhuman faculties with higher wisdom (panna). Gaining one is automatically gaining the other. Higher faculties cannot be gained with simple, everyday mindfulness. To gain superhuman faculties one must do something superhuman, namely meditation. Superhuman faculties come about through concentration practice. Now, knowing human nature, it is very likely that you are going to turn around and say, "But the Buddha didn't say it directly in this sutta." I read in your other post where you accuse Frank of using a rationalization, but you (Nina and others with this thinking) are the ones using a mass of rationalizations. This is the second sutta I found when looking for a quote. I am not going to waste my time formulating an argument that you will more than likely just dismiss with more rationalizations. Think whatever you want. Hopefully in time you will learn the error of this thinking. Really, this is such a simple, basic, unquestioned fact about Buddhism that I cannot believe I even have to explain it. I would really like to know where some members in this group are coming up with the idea that no special practice is necessary to become enlightened. It takes a lot of special practice. Now, I believe I have met your challenge. Therefore, I offer one to you: I would like you to show me a sutta where the Buddha states that meditation isn't necessary to develop Panna. (And this statement should be simple and direct…like mine…no more than one to three sentences.) Metta, James 19318 From: Frank Kuan Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 7:53am Subject: great message for a new year From a taoist manual - interesting to compare with gradual training of 8fold path: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn107.html A lifetime is just a dream, like an out breath which does not guarantee the in breath after it, and today does not insure the morrow. If life is passed aimlessly with death ever coming unexpectedly, the bones of the body will disperse, the four elements will scatter and deluded consciousness will transmigrate through another realm of existence without knowing what form it will take in another life. So birth and death will remain ignorant and will delight in laziness without a chance to awaken to Reality. Now that you have heard about the precious teaching do not go away empty-handed. If you do not listen to it you will not escape from illness and death when you grow old and will thus waste a lifetime in the human world. Therefore take a bold resolution and start to train seriously. As from today you should dwell in singleness of thought; your eyes and ears should disengage from their objects; regulate your diet; reduce your sleep; refrain from futile talk and jokes; stop thinking and worrying; cast away soft comfort and cease to discriminate between the handsome and the ugly so that you can be like the cicada feeding on dew to preserve its unsullied body and like the tortoise absorbing vitality from sunlight to enjoy long life. -fk p.s. When the taoist master talks about "train seriously", he's referring to a pretty detailed regimen with some serious jhanic practice. compare with the sutta link descriptions under the sections on vigilance and jhana. p.p.s. note to dsg moderators: yeah, I know this post is off topic. Call off the lawyers, save some bandwidth. This is my last post to dsg for the year. I confess to the crime, I'm releasing myself on my own recognizance. :-) 19319 From: Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Support for the "Disposition-to-Remain" Defintion of 'Ekagatta' Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/1/03 5:52:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Htoo Naing, Larry, Sarah, Robert, > and all involved with this > >thread - > > > > > >From the ATI Glossary: > >ekaggatarammana: Singleness of preoccupation; "one-pointedness." In > > > >meditation, the mental quality that allows one's attention to > >remain > >collected and focused on the chosen meditation object. > >Ekaggatarammana > >reaches full maturity upon the development of the fourth level of > >jhana. > > > >(Howard comment: Note the idea of allowing the attention to > >*remain* > >collected and focussed on the object. This seems close to the > >disposition for > >"the same" object to remain during subsequent mindstates.) > > Thanks for bringing up this term. It's a new one for me. Does the > Glossary give any references for 'ekaggatarammana' in the texts (I've > not been able to find it in the sources I have available)? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, it does not, nor have I been able to find it elsewhere except in the writings of a number of modern "masters" such as Ajahn Chah, Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo, and Ven. Acariya Maha Boowa Ñanasampanno. ------------------------------------------------------ > Thanks. > Jon > > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19320 From: Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/1/03 9:00:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Jon, > > >An interesting analogy, James. But did the Buddha ever say that > >panna could not be developed without formal yogic meditation > >(whatever that may be)? > > I think the Buddha never said that. A supporting sutta would be (if > I am not wrong): > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) > > "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena > through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of > awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained > internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the > mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should > it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer > in line with what he has seen &experienced: 'The mind should be > steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this > way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be > concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will > become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness > &insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > > > ============================= Yes. I certainly see this sutta as asserting the need for the jhanas. Moreover, I certainly see this sutta as calling for determined, volitional effort: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19321 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi All, > An interesting analogy, James. But did the Buddha ever say that > panna could not be developed without formal yogic meditation > (whatever that may be)? I think this is a very interesting topic. To my understanding, there is a difference between the insights before the path and the path (higher wisdom) itself. Insights before the path can be developed without concentration. But to attain the path (higher wisdom), concentration is necessary. Insight and Tranquility (concentration) are neccessary to attain any path (higher wisdom). This fact is made clear in: "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned. "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html It is very evident that insight can be developed independently of tranquility. This fact is made clear in: "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html But for the path (higher wisdom) to arise, besides insight, concentration is also necessary. This fact is made clear in: On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html In all four cases, concentration is neccessary. The first three cases are cases whereby the disciple EXPLICITLY practises tranquility. In particular, the second case makes it very clear that insight can be developed independently of tranquility (develops tranquility preceded by insight). But in the fourth case, there is no mention of the EXPLICIT practice of tranquility. Instead the disciple attends to purely insight alone. When insight becomes 'full-blown', this is the time the mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. This accounts for the disciple's tranquility (concentration). Thus the path is attained for the disciple in the fourth case. I hope this helps. If I am wrong, please correct. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19322 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 9:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling James Says: Jon, you see, the Buddha equates superhuman faculties with higher wisdom (panna). Gaining one is automatically gaining the other. Higher faculties cannot be gained with simple, everyday mindfulness. To gain superhuman faculties one must do something superhuman, namely meditation. Superhuman faculties come about through concentration practice. Now, knowing human nature, it is very likely that you are going to turn around and say, "But the Buddha didn't say it directly in this sutta." I read in your other post where you accuse Frank of using a rationalization, but you (Nina and others with this thinking) are the ones using a mass of rationalizations. This is the second sutta I found when looking for a quote. I am not going to waste my time formulating an argument that you will more than likely just dismiss with more rationalizations. Think whatever you want. Hopefully in time you will learn the error of this thinking. Really, this is such a simple, basic, unquestioned fact about Buddhism that I cannot believe I even have to explain it. I would really like to know where some members in this group are coming up with the idea that no special practice is necessary to become enlightened. It takes a lot of special practice. Now, I believe I have met your challenge. Therefore, I offer one to you: I would like you to show me a sutta where the Buddha states that meditation isn't necessary to develop Panna. (And this statement should be simple and direct.like mine.no more than one to three sentences.) Metta, James Hi James, while I do not remember a Sutta where the Buddha says no meditation is necessary for Enlightenment to arise. But there is a Sutta that says that it is not necessary to develop the supermundane jhanas.or faculties. Here is that Sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-070.html. It is entitled the Susima Sutta, SN XII.70. I see enlightenment as a gradual process and I think there are various ways for panna to arise. While certainly insight is dependent on some level of concentration, what I read Nina as saying is that if one is stuck for some reason on meditation practice, one can still develop panna through contemplation, reading or listening to the Dharma, etc. I would expect such a development would also lead to better meditation practice :) Ray 19323 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Dear Jon and Mike, op 31-01-2003 06:38 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Mike > > Great to have you back again :-)), :-)). Nina: yes, it is wonderful to have you back, Mike. Very good you brought up kamma, this point is difficult. As you say, akusala comes so natural with us, how natural is attachment. Your point was a condiiton for Jon to explain kamma so well with all the relevant texts. Jon: If I remember > correctly, this class of attachment is referred to somewhere in the > teachings as attachment that is 'to be followed' (perhaps someone > will remember the source, it has been quoted on-list before). Put > another way, this akusala volition simply does not involve the degree > of danger that other akusala volition does. N: There are the terms sama-lobha, sama meaning *even*: lobha that is no very harmful, and visama-lobha, lobha that really harms. In The Guide, Netti, there are the terms: that is to be followed, and Rob quoted this before. We studied this with Jim. It is a difficult text, though. Lobha for attainment that is to be followed, or, that can be followed. This is what we saw in the commentary to the text about jhanas recently quoted by Frank, chanda raga for arahatship. Nina 19324 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 44, Comm, Deportment and metta Hi Larry and all, This may seem complicated for some people, as the Tika deals here with the different groups, kalapas, of rupa. The element of wind , motion, is often translated as oscillation. In my tran of Dhamma Issues 3, the groups of rupa including bodily intimation are further explained. The word *expression* is the intimation rupa. To what purpose do we study such details? We have to remember that all this is in the context of the satipatthana sutta. As Rob K said, we are so attached to our speech, but in reality there are many different elements that come into action, and that just for a moment. Satipatthana must lead to more detachment from all these fleeting elements. When we attach less importance to *my speech*, it helps us to think twice before we utter an unpleasant word. This is taught by the Buddha: samvara sila, restraint of the sense-doors, that is, guarding of the sense-doors through satipatthana. Here is the connection with metta. It is a long way to really see ourselves as fleeting elements, but this leads to attaching less importance to *ourselves*. Is it worth clinging to what are merely elements? We find it so important how we feel in a day, but we forget that feeling is very momentary, only an element. We attach great importance to praise and blame, but we forget that these are only moments of experiencing an object. We may say to ourselves a thousand times that in order to be able to help others we have to put ourselves in the back ground, but we can find out that this sometimes works, but that many times we fail. The reason is that merely thinking is not very effective. Satipatthana is effective, but, as Jon reminded us, there is no immediate result. Being less fixed upon oneself will lead to more metta. This is what A. Sujin means when she tells us: there is metta when you do not think of yourself. Nina. op 31-01-2003 00:52 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > [T] "Produces the process of oscillation." Brings about the group of > materiality with the quality of oscillation in excess. > > [T] This group of materiality is that of the pure octad consisting of > the Four Great Primaries [mahabhuta] symbolized by earth, water, fire > and air, and the four derived from these: color, smell, taste and > nutritive essence [pathavi apo tejo vayo vanna gandha rasa oja]. > > [T] "Excess" is to be taken here by way of capability (adequacy or > competency) and not by way of measure (size or amount). > > [T] "The process of oscillation produces expression." This was said > concerning the process of oscillation arisen from the thought of going. > This process is a condition to the supporting with energy, the bearing > up, and the movement of the conascent body of materiality. > > [T] "Expression" is that change which takes place together with the > intention. > > [T] "Oscillation" is mentioned by way of a predominant condition > [adhika bhava] and not by way of production through oscillation alone. > Otherwise the state of derived materiality pertaining to expression > would not be a fact [aññatha viññattiya upadaya rupa bhavo > durupapado siya]. > 19325 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" > Hi James, while I do not remember a Sutta where the Buddha says no > meditation is necessary for Enlightenment to arise. But there is a Sutta > that says that it is not necessary to develop the supermundane jhanas.or > faculties. Here is that Sutta, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-070.html. It is entitled > the Susima Sutta, SN XII.70. (James: "Ray, Yes, one doesn't need to achieve the highest jhanas or to have the powers of multiplicity, levitation, clairvoyance, etc., to become enlightened. However, a certain degree of formal meditation (concentration) practice is necessary…be that sitting, walking, standing, sitting, or concentration on meditation objects (pure colors, water, or fire). There is an important notice placed at the beginning of this sutta which should be noted: Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "release through discernment" is no different from that given in AN IX.44 (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN IX.43 and AN IX.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening.") I see enlightenment as a gradual process and I > think there are various ways for panna to arise. While certainly insight is > dependent on some level of concentration, what I read Nina as saying is that > if one is stuck for some reason on meditation practice, one can still > develop panna through contemplation, reading or listening to the Dharma, > etc. I would expect such a development would also lead to better meditation > practice :) Ray (I did not see Nina (or Jon) saying this at all. I saw them as stating that dhamma studies can replace concentration practice and that is perfectly acceptable under what the Buddha taught. I strongly disagree. Please re-read what Nina wrote and you will see why I came to my conclusions. However, if she corrects my misinterpretation of her position, I will reconsider and apologize. Metta, James). 19326 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical Basis [was: All in a days work] Hi Sarah and all, Thank you for the reply. Searching all directions with my awareness, I find no one dearer than myself. There is no one dearer than myself. There is no one dearer than yourself. There is no one dearer than oneself. Whether one is a worldling or not. In the first part of the exclamation in Raja Sutta: Searching all directions with one's awareness, one finds no one dearer than oneself. the Buddha stated a universal truth, a truth that is valid to anyone and everyone. Based on this truth, the Buddha stated the ethical principle in the second part of the exclamation: In the same way, others are fiercely dear to themselves. So one should not hurt others if one loves oneself. This ethical principle, as I see it, is based on empathy, an understanding that there is no one more dear to others than themselves. I would like to bring to attention the discourse Piya Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-004.html In this discourse, the Buddha said: "That's the way it is, great king! That's the way it is! Those who engage in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct are not dear to themselves. Even though they may say, 'We are dear to ourselves,' still they aren't dear to themselves. Why is that? Of their own accord, they act toward themselves as an enemy would act toward an enemy; thus they aren't dear to themselves. But those who engage in good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, & good mental conduct are dear to themselves. Even though they may say, 'We aren't dear to ourselves,' still they are dear to themselves. Why is that? Of their own accord, they act toward themselves as a dear one would act toward a dear one; thus they are dear to themselves." I think there is room to consider whether being dear to oneself means the same as being attached to oneself. In Piyajatika Sutta, the Buddha explained that sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear. How are sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear? Through/by craving. There is room to consider whether someone being dear to one means the same as one is attached to him or her. [snip] .... > V:"One interpretation to the statement "one finds no one dearer than > oneself" is that one is attached to oneself. The attachment to self > is to be abandoned. While another interpretation to the statement is > that one is dear to oneself. In this interpretation, the > statement "one finds no one dearer than oneself" does not mean "one > is attached to oneself"." > ***** > Interpretation no 1) (which also relates to comments James helpfully just > wrote as explained by his teacher) continues to stress in the sutta that > just as one is most attached to oneself, so are others (as K.Pasenadi and > Q.Mallika found out and had confirmed by the Buddha).Therefore we should > treat others well and not cause them any harm. > > Interpretation no 2) suggests the sutta does not refer to any attachment > and that `holding dear' refers to wholesome states and in particular to > metta, directed in the first place to oneself. > > Victor, please let me know if this further elaboration on your summary is > correct. This is mostly correct. However, the second interpretation has not touched upon that 'holding oneself dear' and/or 'holding dear' refers to wholesome states and in particular to metta, directed in the first place to oneself. [snip] > In the previous sutta (48), the Buddha had discussed how "to the > unlearned, average man............................when the end is near, he > mourns, pines, weeps, wails, beats his breast and falls into distraction. > Monks, this man is called an unlearned average man; pierced by the > poisoned dart of sorrow, he just torments himself." In other words, love > or attachment brings sorrow. I think the word "love" has different meanings in the English language. I don't think that love in the sense of metta/loving- kindness brings sorrow. Attachment to sensuality does bring sorrow. > On the contrary, we read that "to the learned Ariyan disciple also, monks, > ageing brings old age; but when he is old, he does reflect in that > foresaid way <>....and when age > comes, he does not mourn nor pine nor weep nor wail nor beat his breast > nor fall into distraction....drawn out is the poisoned dart of sorrow with > which the unlearned average man torments himself......."(AN, bk of 5s,48). > Like Herman has suggested, for `unlearned average men' (and women) like > K.Pasenadi and ourselves, however much of the Teachings we've heard -- and > K.Pasenadi had listened to the Buddha on numerous occasions -- there is > bound to be attachment and there is bound to be grief. > > At least, according to the first intepretation above, the king and queen > were honest enough to recognise that the attachment to self is strongest > of all. After all, when the'dear' one dies, it is in truth the strong > attachment to oneself, one's own feelings and one's own loss that brings > the sorrow, isn't it? It is craving that leads to sorrow. Craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. Craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for odors, craving for flavors, craving for tangibles, craving for mind-objects. > > Conveniently, Christine just posted from the Piyajatika Sutta (see end of > post). > > As she mentioned, it's not easy to accept the truth in the words. Here, > piya, translated as `dear' in the Raja sutta, is translated as love. I'd > be interested to know whether you consider it relevant to our discussions > at all. > > Chris also asks: "So what sort of 'love' conduces to detachment. Are we > back at > only 'loving-kindness' or 'compassion', or is there more?" > ..... > I think we come back to seeing the value of `dispassion',`equanimity' and > `guarding of the sense doors'. In other words, the giving up of attachment > at moments of dana, sila and bhavana. When we see more and more that what > we take as `love' for the other(s) is mostly attachment to oneself (MY > husband, wife, child, dog and so on), we can begin to see just a little > what a `poisoned dart' it is and so different from moments of selfless > generosity, kindness or mindfulness. Does the attachment and clinging > which we so often think of as `love' ever benefit those around us....hmmm? I think it might be a good idea to distinguish what is meant by the word "love" and what is meant by the word "attachment". If someone is dear to me, does it mean I am attached to him or her? Again, there is room to consider whether being dear to oneself means being attached to oneself. Love as metta is a quality that will definitely benefit those around us. Attachment and clinging do not. > > Victor, I know you'll happily ignore parts of the post which you don't > consider relevant to our chat;-) Where would you like to go from here? If you like, we can discuss Piya Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-004.html > Would you care to go through the complete commentary (about 3 pages)- I'd > be happy to post a paragraph at a time if you don't run away;-) Yeah, we can go through that. One paragraph at a time would be easier to read and digest. A long message can be overwhelming. > > Metta, > > Sarah Regards, Victor 19327 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 1:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Way 42, Comm, Deportment (technical) [technical remarks for Pali literates] Dear Nina (and Kom), Below are just a few remarks on your translation of the passages below. Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:19:22 +0100 From: nina van gorkom Subject: Re: Way 42, Comm, Deportment << Dear Kom, the Pali has kammatthana, usually translated as meditation subject. It is used for samatha and vipassana. Here, it could mean samatha, since satipatthana is also mentioned. As I quoted : eva.m bhuutassa cassa kuto kamma.t.thaanaadibhaavoti aaha ``kamma.t.thaana.m vaa satipa.t.thaanabhaavanaa vaa na hotii''ti. indeed, how can there for such a person be the development of a meditation subject, and therefore he said: there is no development of a meditation subject nor of satipatthana. >> Jim: I think it is not correct to translate "kamma.t.thaanaadibhaavo" or "kamma.t.thaana.m" as "the development of a meditation subject" as there is no "bhaavanaa" associated in either case as it only extends to "satipa.t.thaana" even though "kamma.t.thaanabhaavanaa" can be found in various passages elsewhere. "kamma.t.thaanaadibhaavo" means "the existence or presence of the meditation subject, etc. (aadi = etc. and refers to the development of satipatthana)". The sentence is rather difficult to put into idiomatic English so I'll just give what I've been able to make of it so far as I find the .tiikaa-s often contain phrases that are very difficult to understand (really out of my depth!). For the following reason: "and of this (the knowing of the inferior kind) being so (neither having gotten rid of the belief in a living being nor having rooted out the perception of a self) where is (the existence of) the meditation subject and the development of satipatthana?", he said "there is neither the meditation subject nor the development of satipatthana." Also in your translation of the following just before the above: . . . apa.tipakkhabhaavato, ananabruuhanato vaa. (from the Burmese CSCD reading) Jim: I think "ananabruuhanato" is mostly likely a typo for "ananubruuhanato". Nina: . . . because he does not develop the opposite quality (pa.tipakkha), he does not applies himself to development Jim: The PTS corresponding phrase in the tika for DN 22 reads: . . . appa.tipakkhabhaavato anubruuhanato. -- Sv-p.t II 384 The PTS and Burmese spellings of the second term are exactly the opposites of each other. I think the PTS reading makes more sense. According to the CPD: "anubruuhana" has the meanings of "increase, strengthening, affirmation", so the strengthening (or re-enforcing) of or affirmation to the perception of a self sounds like a reasonable possibility. My translation: . . . owing to non-opposition or affirmation. Best wishes, Jim ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca Weight Age Gender Female Male 19328 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 3:14pm Subject: Re: The world and dhammas - 1 Hi Jon, Happy Chinese New Year. Thanks for the references. What disintegrates is called 'the world', and the five aggregates are called 'the world.' I don't think the Buddha taught what is taken for oneself is or what we take for ourselves is. When the Buddhat taught what the five aggregates are*, he did not teach that they are what are taken for oneself. I appreciate the The world and dhammas series. Regards, Victor *Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48, Khandha Sutta, Aggregates http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-048.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- "yu_zhonghao " > wrote: > Jon, > > > > I would be interested to know where in the Pali Canon the Buddha > > taught that "whatever is taken for oneself or the world in general > > is in fact nothing more than the 5 khandhas." > > > > I do see some problem with the statement "whatever is taken for > > oneself or the world in general is in fact nothing more than the 5 > > khandhas." The problem I see is not that whether it is true or > > false. The problem I see is whether the Buddha actually taught it. > > I am glad you asked this. It is a very important issue. To my > understanding, the whole of the teachings is directed towards the > development of the path to enlightenment by means of the > understanding of (insight into) the true nature of the presently > arising dhammas/fundamental phenomena/realities. To help people with > different predispositions and levels of understanding, the Buddha > presented and explained these phenomena in different ways. > > For ease of discussion here, I would like to expand my statement a > little and then discuss it in 3 separate parts, with supporting > quotes for each part. So my statement, > "The Buddha taught that what we take for ourselves and the world > around us is in fact nothing more than the 5 khandhas, and that each > of these khandhas is not self." > > now becomes: > (1) The Buddha taught that what we take for ourselves and the world > around us is in fact nothing more than different phenomena (dhammas). > (2) These phenomena are not self. (3) These phenomena can be > classified in various ways, including as sense bases (ayatanas), > aggregates (khandhas) and elements (dhatus). > > Taking the first part of that statement, > "The Buddha taught that what we take for ourselves and the world > around us is in fact nothing more than different phenomena > (dhammas)", > here are 2 suttas from the Samyutta Nikaya that I read as saying just > this. > > 'The All' SN XXXV, 23 > The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & > sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, > intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would > say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned > on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be > unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? > Because it lies beyond range." > > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-023.html) > > 'The World' SN XXXV, 82 > Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having > bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said > to the Blessed One: "'The world, the world (loka),' it is said. In > what respect does the word 'world' apply? > "Insofar as it disintegrates (lujjati), monk, it is called the > 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms > disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye consciousness disintegrates. > Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises > in dependence on contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain > or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too disintegrates. > "The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate... > "The nose disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate... > "The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate... > "The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate... > "The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at > the intellect consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect > disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on > contact at the intellect -- experienced as pleasure, pain or > neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too disintegrates. > "Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the 'world.'" > > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-082.html) > > I see these suttas as explaining that the conventional 'all' and > 'world' of people and things is in fact different phenomena. > > Jon > > (Parts 2 and 3 to follow) 19329 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: Love Hi Christine & Jon, Thanks for your helpful contributions. I'll take some time and digest them. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Herman, and all, > > I'm happy to discuss things with you - only remember that this is my > flawed understanding of the way it is. Hopefully others will > contribute their knowledge and correction. 19330 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hello James, Ray and All, You may be interested in reading part of the translation and notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "Then the Venerable Susima rose from his seat and approached the Blessed One. Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, sat down to one side, reported to the Blessed One the entire conversation he had had with those bhikkhus. [The Blessed One said:] "First Susima, comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 211) "I do not understand in detail, venerable sir, the meaning of what was stated in brief by the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would explain to me in such a way that I could understand in detail what has been stated in brief." "Whether or not you understand, Susima, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 212) "Note 211 states: Pubbe kho Susima dhammatthitinanam, paccha nibbane nanam - Spk: Insight knowledge is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma," which arises first. At the end of the course of insight, path knowledge arises; that is "knowledge of Nibbana," which arises later. Spk-pt: The "stability of the Dhamma" is the stableness of phenomena, their intrinsic nature (dhammanam thitata tamsabhavata): namely, impermanence, suffering, nonself. Knowledge of that is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma." Note 212 states: Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana. Spk- pt: 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanayanika)..." Food for thought. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" > > > Hi James, while I do not remember a Sutta where the Buddha says no > > meditation is necessary for Enlightenment to arise. But there is a > Sutta > > that says that it is not necessary to develop the supermundane > jhanas.or > > faculties. Here is that Sutta, > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-070.html. It is > entitled > > the Susima Sutta, SN XII.70. > > (James: > "Ray, > > Yes, one doesn't need to achieve the highest jhanas or to have the > powers of multiplicity, levitation, clairvoyance, etc., to become > enlightened. However, a certain degree of formal meditation > (concentration) practice is necessary…be that sitting, walking, > standing, sitting, or concentration on meditation objects (pure > colors, water, or fire). > > There is an important notice placed at the beginning of this sutta > which should be noted: > > Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a > meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having > practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not > support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not > deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make > up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny > that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in > physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the > formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "release > through discernment" is no different from that given in AN IX.44 > (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released > in both ways" given in AN IX.43 and AN IX.45). Taken in the context > of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's > every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this > discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining > Awakening.") > > I see enlightenment as a gradual process and I > > think there are various ways for panna to arise. While certainly > insight is > > dependent on some level of concentration, what I read Nina as > saying is that > > if one is stuck for some reason on meditation practice, one can > still > > develop panna through contemplation, reading or listening to the > Dharma, > > etc. I would expect such a development would also lead to better > meditation > > practice :) Ray > > (I did not see Nina (or Jon) saying this at all. I saw them as > stating that dhamma studies can replace concentration practice and > that is perfectly acceptable under what the Buddha taught. I > strongly disagree. Please re-read what Nina wrote and you will see > why I came to my conclusions. However, if she corrects my > misinterpretation of her position, I will reconsider and apologize. > Metta, James). 19331 From: Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 44, Comm, Deportment and metta Hi Nina, Thanks for the encouragement. I don't know what all this means, but that's okay, my body doesn't care. I've been a little preccupied lately. Someone gave me a computer and I've been wrestling with it, trying to understand how to work it. So far, it's gotten the best of me. Larry 19332 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 6:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Christine, Thanks very much for the notes from Bhikkhu Bodhi :) Ray ___________________________________________ Hello James, Ray and All, You may be interested in reading part of the translation and notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "Note 211 states: Pubbe kho Susima dhammatthitinanam, paccha nibbane nanam - Spk: Insight knowledge is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma," which arises first. At the end of the course of insight, path knowledge arises; that is "knowledge of Nibbana," which arises later. Spk-pt: The "stability of the Dhamma" is the stableness of phenomena, their intrinsic nature (dhammanam thitata tamsabhavata): namely, impermanence, suffering, nonself. Knowledge of that is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma." Note 212 states: Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana. Spk- pt: 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanayanika)..." Food for thought. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" > > > Hi James, while I do not remember a Sutta where the Buddha says no > > meditation is necessary for Enlightenment to arise. But there is a > Sutta > > that says that it is not necessary to develop the supermundane > jhanas.or > > faculties. Here is that Sutta, > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-070.html. It is > entitled > > the Susima Sutta, SN XII.70. > > (James: > "Ray, > > Yes, one doesn't need to achieve the highest jhanas or to have the > powers of multiplicity, levitation, clairvoyance, etc., to become > enlightened. However, a certain degree of formal meditation > (concentration) practice is necessary.be that sitting, walking, > standing, sitting, or concentration on meditation objects (pure > colors, water, or fire). > > There is an important notice placed at the beginning of this sutta > which should be noted: > > Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a > meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having > practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not > support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not > deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make > up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny > that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in > physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the > formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "release > through discernment" is no different from that given in AN IX.44 > (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released > in both ways" given in AN IX.43 and AN IX.45). Taken in the context > of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's > every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this > discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining > Awakening.") > > I see enlightenment as a gradual process and I > > think there are various ways for panna to arise. While certainly > insight is > > dependent on some level of concentration, what I read Nina as > saying is that > > if one is stuck for some reason on meditation practice, one can > still > > develop panna through contemplation, reading or listening to the > Dharma, > > etc. I would expect such a development would also lead to better > meditation > > practice :) Ray > > (I did not see Nina (or Jon) saying this at all. I saw them as > stating that dhamma studies can replace concentration practice and > that is perfectly acceptable under what the Buddha taught. I > strongly disagree. Please re-read what Nina wrote and you will see > why I came to my conclusions. However, if she corrects my > misinterpretation of her position, I will reconsider and apologize. > Metta, James). 19333 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 6:26pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello James, Ray and All, > You may be interested in reading part of the translation and notes by > Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > "Then the Venerable Susima rose from his seat and approached the > Blessed One. Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, > sat down to one side, reported to the Blessed One the entire > conversation he had had with those bhikkhus. > [The Blessed One said:] > "First Susima, comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, > afterards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 211) > "I do not understand in detail, venerable sir, the meaning of what > was stated in brief by the Blessed One. It would be good if the > Blessed One would explain to me in such a way that I could understand > in detail what has been stated in brief." > "Whether or not you understand, Susima, first comes knowledge of the > stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 212) > > "Note 211 states: Pubbe kho Susima dhammatthitinanam, paccha nibbane > nanam - Spk: Insight knowledge is "knowledge of the stability of the > Dhamma," which arises first. At the end of the course of insight, > path knowledge arises; that is "knowledge of Nibbana," which arises > later. Spk-pt: The "stability of the Dhamma" is the stableness of > phenomena, their intrinsic nature (dhammanam thitata tamsabhavata): > namely, impermanence, suffering, nonself. Knowledge of that > is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma." > > Note 212 states: Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing > the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is > meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration > (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration > (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration > (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the > advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. > Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of > the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana. Spk- > pt: 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without > previously established (concentration) that has acquired the > characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said > referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight > (vipassanayanika)..." > > Food for thought. > > metta, > > Christine Christine, You may be surprised that I don't disagree with this sutta or the commentary of it…because it doesn't disprove what I have been saying. I have been saying that meditation is necessary; naturally I mean Vipassana meditation. Buddhist meditation is broken down into two types: samatha and vipassana. In this sutta, the Buddha wanted to emphasize that he doesn't agree with pure, concentration meditation (trance meditation). He wanted to emphasize that insight into the nature of reality was necessary before nibbana was possible… pure concentration, like that practiced by the other ascetics of his time, wasn't sufficient. His method was to develop concentration and then to direct that concentration to the inherent transience of the aggregates; which is vipassana meditation. I am not sure what your interpretation of this material is because you just say it is `food for thought'. What are your thoughts? If you believe that awareness of the transience of `The All' can be known without building stronger than normal powers of concentration and then directing that powerful concentration to the nature of the aggregates, I believe you are mistaken (this seems to be your implication). Memorizing nama/rupa categorizations and trying to apply them with simple mindfulness during everyday perception isn't necessarily a bad thing to be doing, but that isn't what the Buddha taught…and it isn't the path of panna fruition. Metta, James 19334 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 7:24pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi James, > His method was to develop concentration and then to direct that > concentration to the inherent transience of the aggregates; > which is vipassana meditation. Doesn't that correspond to the first method described in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. What about the other three methods as described by the Buddha? And by concentration, do you mean the jhanic level of concentration? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19335 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 7:28pm Subject: Regarding the Teachings Dear Group, I've been thinking lately that much of the posting on Buddhist Lists seems to come down to arguing over points in the scriptures. I know that many of the practitioners of the Theistic religions are People of the Book - are Buddhists any different, just People of a Different Book? Do we value 'experience' over 'sutta', or do we disregard 'experience' and re-interpret the world to fit the scripture? How are we supposed to regard The Pali Canon - as Holy Writ set in concrete? Is there an Order of Precedence? Is the Majjhima or Digha or Samyutta Nikaya more important than the others? or what about the Anguttara Nikaya? Many arguments use on second-hand quotes from the suttas not on Access To Insight, or commentaries that a handful of the people have actually read. What about these Commentaries? Often they seem to explain suttas to the point that one feels no sutta can be taken on face value. "The Real Meaning" often seems quite removed from that which a straight forward reading of the sutta gives. Why is this? Just how sure can we be that the scriptures are the Word of the Buddha? Four or five hundred years is a long time ... cultures change, the old beliefs can return and gain influence ... How can we be sure that the scriptures weren't altered in the telling even accidentally, that they weren't 'creatively improved' ("the Buddha couldn't really have meant that", "it's different now, so for the welfare of many we'll write this") in their being committed to writing? I know it is said, but can we really believe that the scriptures are unadulterated? metta, Christine 19336 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 7:51pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi James, > > > His method was to develop concentration and then to direct that > > concentration to the inherent transience of the aggregates; > > which is vipassana meditation. > > Doesn't that correspond to the first method described in > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html > > "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > What about the other three methods as described by the Buddha? (James: Hi NEO, The other three methods that you are referring to weren't `taught' by the Buddha, they were `observed' by Ananda. The Buddha taught a general outline that allowed for some flexibility for individual personalities and accumulations from previous lifetimes. He taught the basic guidelines of tranquility = concentration = insight into realities. Some people had developed tranquility in previous lifetimes so concentration came first, then tranquility arose second… or they developed both at the same time. Those with a young karma stream needed to work a long time on tranquility before getting any amount of concentration. Those with a lot of both tranquility and concentration in previous lifetimes only needed a little bit of both before becoming enlightened…sometimes just from listening to a sutta. We each start somewhere different. Personally, when I meditate (which I just finished doing for 45 minutes) I develop a small amount of concentration first and then focus the concentration on relaxing the body and mind. Then I absorb my mind into the moments of awareness of body sensations and brain functioning (I have been working on trying to have the same amount of relaxation and awareness of the right side of my body as my left…I have less awareness of the right side and that must be due to the dominance of my right-brain thinking [which controls the the left side of my body]). > And by concentration, do you mean the jhanic level of concentration? (James: Maybe. Frankly, I don't worry or think about jhanic levels. I take it as it comes. It is not like at some point in my meditation a flashing neon sign is going to appear in my mind stating "Congratulations! You have just reached Jhanic Level One! 5,000 Bonus Points!" ;-) Metta, James) > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19337 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:08pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi James, > He taught the basic guidelines of tranquility = concentration = > insight into realities. Some people had developed tranquility in > previous lifetimes so concentration came first, then tranquility > arose second… or they developed both at the same time. Those with > a young karma stream needed to work a long time on tranquility > before getting any amount of concentration. Those with a lot of > both tranquility and concentration in previous lifetimes only > needed a little bit of both before becoming enlightened…sometimes > just from listening to a sutta. I am getting confused. What's the difference between concentration and tranquility? Doesn't tranquility mean concentration and concentration mean tranquility? In the context of AccessToInsight, tranquility means samatha which means concentration, is that not? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19338 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:15pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: < snip > (James: Maybe. Frankly, I don't worry or think about jhanic levels. I take it as it comes. It is not like at some point in my meditation a flashing neon sign is going to appear in my mind stating "Congratulations! You have just reached Jhanic Level One! 5,000 Bonus Points!" ;-) Metta, James) KKT: But what is your reaction if the flashing neon sign stated "Congratulations! You have just hit the jack-pot! Liberaaaatiooon!" ;-)) KKT 19339 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:24pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi James, > > I am getting confused. > > What's the difference between concentration and tranquility? Doesn't > tranquility mean concentration and concentration mean tranquility? > > In the context of AccessToInsight, tranquility means samatha which > means concentration, is that not? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon Hi NEO, No, concentration and tranquility are not the same thing; however, concentration and insight can be used interchangeably in the context of Vipassana meditation. Tranquility is a psychosomatic response to thinking patterns and mood; concentration is maintaining perception of one mental object (or similar mental objects, like breath sensation) for successive mind moments (cittas). For example, a heroin addict may have an extremely focused and concentrated mind on getting a heroin fix, but that addict's body and mood is anything but tranquil. In meditation, focusing too much energy into concentration can imbalance tranquility and too much energy put into tranquility can imbalance concentration. That is why the Buddha also taught the importance of the proper amount of energy that one expends into meditation…to balance tranquility and concentration. Metta, James 19340 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:27pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000 > KKT: But what is your reaction > if the flashing neon sign stated > "Congratulations! You have just > hit the jack-pot! Liberaaaatiooon!" > > > ;-)) > > > KKT Hi KKT, LOL! Hmmm...I would probably think to myself, "This is great, but why hasn't KKT uploaded a photo of himself to DSG yet?" :-) Metta, James 19341 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:31pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Christine, I find the article Befriending the Suttas Some Suggestions for Reading the Pali Discourses by John Bullitt http://www.accesstoinsight.org/sutta101.html reasonable and I think it has answers to some of your questions. Regards, Victor > Dear Group, > > I've been thinking lately that much of the posting on Buddhist Lists > seems to come down to arguing over points in the scriptures. I know > that many of the practitioners of the Theistic religions are People > of the Book - are Buddhists any different, just People of a Different > Book? Do we value 'experience' over 'sutta', or do we > disregard 'experience' and re-interpret the world to fit the > scripture? > How are we supposed to regard The Pali Canon - as Holy Writ set in > concrete? Is there an Order of Precedence? Is the Majjhima or Digha > or Samyutta Nikaya more important than the others? or what about the > Anguttara Nikaya? Many arguments use on second-hand quotes from the > suttas not on Access To Insight, or commentaries that a handful of > the people have actually read. What about these Commentaries? > Often they seem to explain suttas to the point that one feels no > sutta can be taken on face value. "The Real Meaning" often seems > quite removed from that which a straight forward reading of the sutta > gives. Why is this? > Just how sure can we be that the scriptures are the Word of the > Buddha? Four or five hundred years is a long time ... cultures > change, the old beliefs can return and gain influence ... How can we > be sure that the scriptures weren't altered in the telling even > accidentally, that they weren't 'creatively improved' ("the Buddha > couldn't really have meant that", "it's different now, so for the > welfare of many we'll write this") in their being committed to > writing? > I know it is said, but can we really believe that the scriptures are > unadulterated? > > metta, > Christine 19342 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:41pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi James, > No, concentration and tranquility are not the same thing; I am not sure to agree with you or not. But I think that the purpose of concentration practice is to develop tranquility. In this way, I think concentration == tranquility. When there is right concentration, the five hindrances are suppressed and the five factors of concentration appears. Their appearance accounts for tranquility. If they are different, wouldn't we have a Nine-Fold Path instead? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19343 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:58pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi James, > > > No, concentration and tranquility are not the same thing; > > I am not sure to agree with you or not. > > But I think that the purpose of concentration practice is to develop > tranquility. In this way, I think concentration == tranquility. When > there is right concentration, the five hindrances are suppressed and > the five factors of concentration appears. Their appearance accounts > for tranquility. > > If they are different, wouldn't we have a Nine-Fold Path instead? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon Hi NEO, You are over-analyzing the matter. In order for there to be Right Concentration there has to be Right Tranquility, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing and one can occur without the other. After all, there is dependent origination. The Buddha stated Right Concentration in the Eightfold Path because it is the more important of the two…it is the deciding factor in the gaining of insight. Tranquility is not the deciding factor at all…if it was, everyone who takes a vacation to Hawaii would become enlightened! ;-) Metta, James 19344 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Victor, I understand John Bulitt to be saying 'don't worry about having to know whether the Buddha actually said everything in the Suttas, find out for yourself if it is true'. Sounds reasonable. His assumption seems to be that one will find that it all proves to be true. But what does one do when the Buddha expresses an opinion, an attitude, that one believes to be an opinion, an attitude, that an enlightened being could not hold? For me, it tends to undermine the rest of the scriptures. Thanks for the link, Victor - I've only had a brief look so far, and it does seem very worthwhile. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I find the article > > Befriending the Suttas > Some Suggestions for Reading > the Pali Discourses > by > John Bullitt > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/sutta101.html > > reasonable and I think it has answers to some of your questions. > > Regards, > Victor 19345 From: Andrew Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 9:54pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > But > what does one do when the Buddha expresses an opinion, an attitude, > that one believes to be an opinion, an attitude, that an enlightened > being could not hold? For me, it tends to undermine the rest of the > scriptures. > Hi Christine Perhaps you have stumbled upon the meaning of the old Japanese saying "praying to the Buddha, we all go to hell"? Andrew 19346 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 9:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Neo, James is correct in this point concentration is not the same as tranquility. It may be that in Buddhism if you concentrate during meditation you may find tranquility but in real life the two terms are completely different. Metta. Venerable Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: James [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] Enviado el: Domingo, Febrero 02, 2003 03:58 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi James, > > > No, concentration and tranquility are not the same thing; > > I am not sure to agree with you or not. > > But I think that the purpose of concentration practice is to develop > tranquility. In this way, I think concentration == tranquility. When > there is right concentration, the five hindrances are suppressed and > the five factors of concentration appears. Their appearance accounts > for tranquility. > > If they are different, wouldn't we have a Nine-Fold Path instead? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon Hi NEO, You are over-analyzing the matter. In order for there to be Right Concentration there has to be Right Tranquility, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing and one can occur without the other. After all, there is dependent origination. The Buddha stated Right Concentration in the Eightfold Path because it is the more important of the two…it is the deciding factor in the gaining of insight. Tranquility is not the deciding factor at all…if it was, everyone who takes a vacation to Hawaii would become enlightened! ;-) Metta, James 19347 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 9:54pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find concentration. No. Metta. Ven. Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: nidive [mailto:nidive@y...] Enviado el: Domingo, Febrero 02, 2003 03:41 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi James, > No, concentration and tranquility are not the same thing; I am not sure to agree with you or not. But I think that the purpose of concentration practice is to develop tranquility. In this way, I think concentration == tranquility. When there is right concentration, the five hindrances are suppressed and the five factors of concentration appears. Their appearance accounts for tranquility. If they are different, wouldn't we have a Nine-Fold Path instead? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19348 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 9:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Correction, Do I find tranquility. No. Venerable Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu [mailto:sanz@n...] Enviado el: Domingo, Febrero 02, 2003 04:54 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: RE: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find concentration. No. Metta. Ven. Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: nidive [mailto:nidive@y...] Enviado el: Domingo, Febrero 02, 2003 03:41 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi James, > No, concentration and tranquility are not the same thing; I am not sure to agree with you or not. But I think that the purpose of concentration practice is to develop tranquility. In this way, I think concentration == tranquility. When there is right concentration, the five hindrances are suppressed and the five factors of concentration appears. Their appearance accounts for tranquility. If they are different, wouldn't we have a Nine-Fold Path instead? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19349 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 10:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Venerable Yanatharo, > Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I > concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find tranquility? > No. But this is wrong concentration. Wrong concentration cannot produce tranquility. In another example given by James (which I have no wish to continue to respond to, because I do not really know how to explain to him my position, and he flares up pretty easily), he says a person who goes on vacation (to Hawaii) has tranquility. This is NOT tranquility as taught by the Buddha. A person who goes on vacation is attached to sensual desires of the eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. Tranquility as taught by the Buddha has the suppression of sensual desires. Anguttara Nikaya II.30 Vijja-bhagiya Sutta A Share in Clear Knowing "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? PASSION is abandoned. "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of PASSION is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html With Great Respect, NEO Swee Boon 19350 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 10:25pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Andrew, A coincidence that you should reply Andrew :-) ... I was re-aranging the study today and came across a booklet by Natasha Jackson from the Buddhist Society of N.S.W., that you gave me at Cooran. Started looking through it again, as one does. It is this booklet and some scripture quotes it contains that's proving to be so disconcerting. I expect I'll get over it. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > But > > what does one do when the Buddha expresses an opinion, an attitude, > > that one believes to be an opinion, an attitude, that an enlightened > > being could not hold? For me, it tends to undermine the rest of the > > scriptures. > > > > Hi Christine > Perhaps you have stumbled upon the meaning of the old Japanese saying > "praying to the Buddha, we all go to hell"? > Andrew 19351 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 10:27pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Christine, This is a gem I found on http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ma/magadha.htm "The Magadhabhásá is regarded as the speech of the Áriyans (e.g., Sp.i.255). If children grow up without being taught any language, they will spontaneously use the Magadha language; it is spread all over Niraya, among lower animals, petas, humans and devas (VibhA.387f)." Now VibhA is apparently the Sammoha-Vinodaní, Vibhanga Commentary. The quote suggests to me that if you accept the texts or commentaries on face value (without relying on your own experience) than you are possibly a little bit silly. (no doubt someone will prove me wrong :-)) Further re your post, to quote a single sutta or three in defense of an already held viewpoint is a dubious practice (I am certainly not speaking about you at all here, Christine :-)) Unless one gets the "spirit" of what is being said, and the background against which it is said, which is only possible by a very broad reading, including non-canonical sources and sources critical of the material at hand, one is likely to misinterpret according to one's own intention. As as example, take formal meditation. I do not wish to discuss formal meditation at all, and wil not reply to questions about it. I am referring to formal meditation to illustrate my point in the previous paragraph only. For me, it is not possible to read the suttas or any other relevant material and not come away with the idea that the Buddha was a proponent of sitting meditation. But there are plenty among us who latch onto a word here and the lack of a word there to justify their own positions. This is fine with me. I am illustrating the phenomenon of selective reading only. I believe that it is not possible to map all of the basic ten moral acts (dasa kusala) to western urban culture. The Buddha taught in his life and time, we cannot contemplate the Tipitaka as a closed canon without rendering it useless. It is highly significant that the Buddha did not appoint a successor. There is no vicarious liberation, we must all achieve our own. And while doing so, we must be islands to our selves. Still, it is nice that our islands are nearby each other's and that we are within shouting distance :-) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > I've been thinking lately that much of the posting on Buddhist Lists > seems to come down to arguing over points in the scriptures. I know > that many of the practitioners of the Theistic religions are People > of the Book - are Buddhists any different, just People of a Different > Book? Do we value 'experience' over 'sutta', or do we > disregard 'experience' and re-interpret the world to fit the > scripture? > How are we supposed to regard The Pali Canon - as Holy Writ set in > concrete? Is there an Order of Precedence? Is the Majjhima or Digha > or Samyutta Nikaya more important than the others? or what about the > Anguttara Nikaya? Many arguments use on second-hand quotes from the > suttas not on Access To Insight, or commentaries that a handful of > the people have actually read. What about these Commentaries? > Often they seem to explain suttas to the point that one feels no > sutta can be taken on face value. "The Real Meaning" often seems > quite removed from that which a straight forward reading of the sutta > gives. Why is this? > Just how sure can we be that the scriptures are the Word of the > Buddha? Four or five hundred years is a long time ... cultures > change, the old beliefs can return and gain influence ... How can we > be sure that the scriptures weren't altered in the telling even > accidentally, that they weren't 'creatively improved' ("the Buddha > couldn't really have meant that", "it's different now, so for the > welfare of many we'll write this") in their being committed to > writing? > I know it is said, but can we really believe that the scriptures are > unadulterated? > > metta, > Christine 19352 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 11:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Venerable Yanatharo, > Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I > concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find tranquility? > No. Once again, I refer to my favourite sutta. I find that there is indeed a subtle difference between tranquility and (right) concentration. Tranquility arises out of the Noble Eight-fold Path, which includes Right Concentration. But tranquility does not precede (right) concentration as claimed by James. Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.204 Kimsuka Sutta The Riddle Tree "Suppose, monk, that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong walls & ramparts and six gates. In it would be a wise, experienced, intelligent gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know and to let in those he did. A swift pair of messengers, coming from the east, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come. Then a swift pair of messengers, coming from the west... the north... the south, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come. "I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message is this: The fortress stands for this body -- composed of four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). The commander of the fortress stands for consciousness. The central square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html The route by which the swift pair of messengers (Tranquility and Insight) had come is the Noble Eight-fold Path. The Noble Eight-fold Path enables the arising of Tranquility and Insight. And Tranquility and Insight are necessary for the attainment of Unbinding. With Great Respect, NEO Swee Boon 19353 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 11:10pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Herman, I think my difficulty is that I have tended to treat the buddhist scriptures in the same way I was taught to regard the Holy Bible - as sacred writings of divine origin and authority, which under no circumstances was to be questioned. And sometimes, it seems to me, that buddhists regard the Canon in the same way. So when one comes across something that causes a "But that I can't believe" reaction, it prompts a re-assessment of a previous comfortable certainty regarding the infallibility of the Teachings. The dilemma for me is that either the teachings are the unadulterated word of the buddha, in which case I have some problems - or - the teachings have changed over time with accretions and alterations, are not exactly what the Buddha taught. In which case, I have a different set of problems. I think my raft has some holes, but I'm bailing fast. :-) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > I believe that it is not possible to map all of the basic ten moral > acts (dasa kusala) to western urban culture. The Buddha taught in his > life and time, we cannot contemplate the Tipitaka as a closed canon > without rendering it useless. > > It is highly significant that the Buddha did not appoint a successor. > There is no vicarious liberation, we must all achieve our own. And > while doing so, we must be islands to our selves. Still, it is nice > that our islands are nearby each other's and that we are within > shouting distance :-) > > > All the best > > > Herman > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > I've been thinking lately that much of the posting on Buddhist > Lists > > seems to come down to arguing over points in the scriptures. I > know > > that many of the practitioners of the Theistic religions are People > > of the Book - are Buddhists any different, just People of a > Different > > Book? Do we value 'experience' over 'sutta', or do we > > disregard 'experience' and re-interpret the world to fit the > > scripture? > > How are we supposed to regard The Pali Canon - as Holy Writ set in > > concrete? Is there an Order of Precedence? Is the Majjhima or > Digha > > or Samyutta Nikaya more important than the others? or what about > the > > Anguttara Nikaya? Many arguments use on second-hand quotes from > the > > suttas not on Access To Insight, or commentaries that a handful of > > the people have actually read. What about these Commentaries? > > Often they seem to explain suttas to the point that one feels no > > sutta can be taken on face value. "The Real Meaning" often seems > > quite removed from that which a straight forward reading of the > sutta > > gives. Why is this? > > Just how sure can we be that the scriptures are the Word of the > > Buddha? Four or five hundred years is a long time ... cultures > > change, the old beliefs can return and gain influence ... How can > we > > be sure that the scriptures weren't altered in the telling even > > accidentally, that they weren't 'creatively improved' ("the Buddha > > couldn't really have meant that", "it's different now, so for the > > welfare of many we'll write this") in their being committed to > > writing? > > I know it is said, but can we really believe that the scriptures > are > > unadulterated? > > > > metta, > > Christine 19354 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 11:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Neo, So you have found some lines in a book that you like? Have you read all the lines in the book? What do you do with the ones you don't like? The other thing you could do is to actually try it and see what messengers you meet up with :-) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Dear Venerable Yanatharo, > > > Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I > > concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find tranquility? > > No. > > Once again, I refer to my favourite sutta. I find that there is > indeed a subtle difference between tranquility and (right) > concentration. Tranquility arises out of the Noble Eight-fold Path, > which includes Right Concentration. But tranquility does not precede > (right) concentration as claimed by James. > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.204 > Kimsuka Sutta > The Riddle Tree > > "Suppose, monk, that there were a royal frontier fortress with > strong walls & ramparts and six gates. In it would be a wise, > experienced, intelligent gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know > and to let in those he did. A swift pair of messengers, coming from > the east, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the > commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, > sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, > delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, > would then go back by the route by which they had come. Then a swift > pair of messengers, coming from the west... the north... the south, > would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander > of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the > central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their > accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back > by the route by which they had come. > > "I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The > message is this: The fortress stands for this body -- composed of > four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley > gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling > apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The > gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers > stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). The > commander of the fortress stands for consciousness. The central > square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the > liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The > accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which > they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right > resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, > right mindfulness, right concentration." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html > > > The route by which the swift pair of messengers (Tranquility and > Insight) had come is the Noble Eight-fold Path. > > The Noble Eight-fold Path enables the arising of Tranquility and > Insight. And Tranquility and Insight are necessary for the > attainment of Unbinding. > > With Great Respect, > NEO Swee Boon 19355 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 11:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Herman, > So you have found some lines in a book that you like? Have you > read all the lines in the book? What do you do with the ones you > don't like? > The other thing you could do is to actually try it and see what > messengers you meet up with :-) I don't understand you. What are you implying? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19356 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 0:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Neo, Today Christine started a thread about the teachings, and what the place of personal experience is. (You might like to read that thread ). I am wondering whether experience plays a role in your contributions, or do you just quote the suttas that support your viewpoint? (and leave any suttas that don't support your viewpoint out). Maybe we could all just follow a link to the entire Tipitaka any time we want a reality check :-) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > So you have found some lines in a book that you like? Have you > > read all the lines in the book? What do you do with the ones you > > don't like? > > The other thing you could do is to actually try it and see what > > messengers you meet up with :-) > > I don't understand you. What are you implying? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19357 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 0:24am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Herman, > I am wondering whether experience plays a role in your > contributions, or do you just quote the suttas that support > your viewpoint? (and leave any suttas that don't support your > viewpoint out). Thank you for your clarification. As far as I know, I do not know of any sutta that contradicts my viewpoint. If you know of any, please share it. I do think that my experience do play a role: concentration practice leads to tranquility. That's why I said previously that concentration == tranquility. (Of course, you must understand what tranquility means in the Dhamma's context.) I would like to help Christine, but I find that I am inadequate. My advise to Christine would be to be equanimous with regards to the Dhamma (Tipitaka, Commentaries, etc.). She should not bother too much about whether it's really the Buddha's words or not. Instead, she should investigate by experience whether the words are true or not. That does not mean that all the words can be verified. But what subset that can be verified, she should go out and verify by experience and insight. Those that cannot be verified, she should put them aside but not reject them. She should not let her mind stray into doubts. Whether she doubts the Tipitaka or not, if the Tipitaka is true, it remains true, if it is false, it remains false. There is no point letting the mind stray into doubt. She should train her mind to know doubts as doubts. When doubts arise, she should know that doubts arise. When doubts do not arise, she should know that doubts do not arise. In this way, being mindful of doubts, doubts is lessened, not strengthened. Doubt is one of the defilements destroyed by the sotapanna. I hope this helps. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19358 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 0:40am Subject: To Christine Hi Christine, To really know for sure whether the Tipitaka is really the Buddha's words would be like the case of Malunkyaputta. We read in ADL Chapter 7, People in the Buddha's time too were speculating about things which do not lead to the goal of the teachings. They were wondering whether the world is finite or infinite, whether the world is eternal or not eternal, whether the Tathagata (the Buddha) exists drier his parinibbana or not. We read in the 'Lesser Discourse to Malunkya (Middle Length Sayings II, no. 63) that Malunkyaputta was displeased that the Buddha did not give explanations with regard to speculative views. He wanted to question the Buddha on these views and if the Buddha should not give him an explanation with regard to these views he would leave the order. He spoke to the Buddha about this matter and the Buddha asked him whether he had ever said to Malunkyaputta: Come you, Malurikyaputta, fare the Brahma-faring under me and I will explain to you either that the world is eternal or that the world is not eternal... or that the Tathagata is… is not after dying… both is and is not after dying... neither is nor is not after dying? We read that Malunkyaputta answered: 'No, revered Sir.' The Buddha also asked him whether he (Maunkyaputta) had said that he would 'fare the Brahma-faring' under the Lord if the Lord should give him an explanation with regard to these views and again Maunkyaputta answered: 'No, revered sir.' The Buddha then compared his situation with the case of a man who is pierced by a poisoned arrow and who will not draw out the arrow until he knows whether the man who pierced him is a noble, a brahman, a merchant or a worker; until he knows the name of the man and his clan; until he knows his outward appearance; until he knows about the bow, the bowstring, the material of the shaft, the kind of arrow. However, he will pass away before he knows all this. It is the same with the person who only wants to 'fare the Braham-faring' under the Lord if explanations with regard to speculative views are given to him. We read that the Buddha said: 'The living of the Brahma-faring, Malunkyaputta, could not be said to depend on the view that the world is eternal. Nor could the living of the Brahma-faring, Malunkyaputta, be said to depend on the view that the world is not eternal. Whether there is the view that the world is eternal or whether there is the view that the world is not eternal, there is birth, there is aging, there is dying, there are grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair, the destruction of which I lay down here and now.... Wherefore, Malunkyaputta, understand as not explained what has not been explained by me, and understand as explained what has been explained by me. And what, Malunkyaputta, has not been explained by me? That the world is eternal.. that the world is not eternal has not been explained by me.. And why, Malunkyaputta, has this not been explained by me? It is because it is not connected with the goal, it is not fundamental to the Brahma-faring, and does not conduce to turning away from, nor to dispassion, stopping, calming, super-knowledge, awakening, nor to nibbana. Therefore it has not been explained by me, Malunkyaputta. And what has been explained by me, Malunkyaputta? 'This is dukkha' has been explained by me, Malunkyaputta. 'This is the arising of dukkha' has been explained by me. 'This is the stopping of dukkha' has been explained by me. 'This is the course leading to the stopping of dukkha' has been explained by me. And why, Malunkyaputta, has this been explained by me? It is because it is connected with the goal, it is fundamental to the Brahma-faring, and conduces to turning away from, to dispassion, stopping, calming, super-knowledge, awakening and nibbana... ' Doubt cannot be cured by speculating about matters which do not lead to the goal; it can only be cured by being aware of the nama and rupa which present themselves now. Even when there is doubt it can be realized as only a type of nama arising because of conditions and not self. Thus the reality of the present moment will be known more clearly. http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid7.html All of us in samsara are pierced by a poisoned arrow. If we will not draw out the arrow until we know for sure whether the Tipitaka are really the Buddha's words, we would be poisoned to death first. Speculating about the anthenticity of the Tipitaka does not lead to the goal of Unbinding, Christine. I hope this helps. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19359 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 1:48am Subject: Re: To Christine Hello Swee Boon, Thank you for your posts - it is very kind of you to take the time to try to help, and I appreciate it very much. I agree with you that metaphysical questions should be set aside, and shouldn't distract us from the main task at hand, the way to the end of suffering and final liberation. I don't look on the Buddha as a fortune-teller or a super-scientist. I looked on him as a being with attributes of limitless compassion and loving-kindness, with a complete understanding of the nature of other beings, and of causes and conditions. I saw him as a trail blazer whose teachings were a map that could be followed with confidence. If one begins to believe that the attributes are in some way incomplete then one can come to wonder about the accuracy of the map. This was particularly helpful: "She should train her mind to know doubts as doubts. When doubts arise, she should know that doubts arise. When doubts do not arise, she should know that doubts do not arise. In this way, being mindful of doubts, doubts is lessened, not strengthened. Doubt is one of the defilements destroyed by the sotapanna." I am sure I'll come to some resolution. Thanks again Swee Boon. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: 19360 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 6:20am Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Christine, I would be interested to know an opinions and/or an attitude that the Buddha expressed yet could not be hold by an enlightend being. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Victor, > > I understand John Bulitt to be saying 'don't worry about having to > know whether the Buddha actually said everything in the Suttas, find > out for yourself if it is true'. Sounds reasonable. His assumption > seems to be that one will find that it all proves to be true. But > what does one do when the Buddha expresses an opinion, an attitude, > that one believes to be an opinion, an attitude, that an enlightened > being could not hold? For me, it tends to undermine the rest of the > scriptures. > > Thanks for the link, Victor - I've only had a brief look so far, and > it does seem very worthwhile. > > metta, > Christine 19361 From: James Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 6:48am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Dear Venerable Yanatharo, > > > Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I > > concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find tranquility? > > No. > > But this is wrong concentration. Wrong concentration cannot produce > tranquility. > > In another example given by James (which I have no wish to continue > to respond to, because I do not really know how to explain to him my > position, and he flares up pretty easily) (James: LOL!! Hehehehe…that is the Zen Buddhist in me. Consider yourself lucky that you aren't in physical proximity with me; I might just hit you with a stick! LOL! (Zen Buddhist custom for insolent, lazy practitioners). NEO, if you want to find out the differences between tranquility and concentration get your nose out of the suttas and meditate already!! You aren't going to know by reading the suttas (and I don't understand why you want to know that way). You remind me of someone who, before they go swimming, must know the exact length, width, and height of the pool, how many gallons of water it contains and what is the Ph/Chlorine balance of that water. Just jump in already!! ;-) , he says a person who goes > on vacation (to Hawaii) has tranquility. This is NOT tranquility as > taught by the Buddha. A person who goes on vacation is attached to > sensual desires of the eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. Tranquility > as taught by the Buddha has the suppression of sensual desires. (James: NEO, it was a joke ;-) Lighten up. Another Zen tradition...nonsensical answers are given for questions that each person must answer for him or herself.) > > Anguttara Nikaya II.30 > Vijja-bhagiya Sutta > A Share in Clear Knowing > > "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? > Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). > > "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The > mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does > it serve? PASSION is abandoned. > > "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment > is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does > it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. > > "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, > discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of PASSION is > there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there > discernment-release." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html (James: Well, see, you have your answer in this sutta. There is a difference between tranquility and concentration. One is to erradicate passion and one is to erradicate ignorance. Hmmm...but I get the feeling that my posts give you neither tranquility or concentration! ;-) With Fiery Metta, James) > > With Great Respect, > NEO Swee Boon 19362 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, , contemplation and insight Hi James :-) See below op 31-01-2003 21:39 schreef James op buddhatrue@y...: > > I cannot believe my eyes. Are you actually stating that one doesn't > need to meditate to know present realities...all one needs is panna? N: You say the word: panna. But, it is a development for a long, long time. J: And where exactly do you think panna (wisdom) comes from if it isn't > from meditation? N: from insight meditation. This should be done in daily life, if it is not daily life we shall not know our true accumulations. J: Do you realize that this position is in direct > contradiction to everything the Buddha taught? N: No. See useful posts, we had so many discussions, many texts quoted. J: Does the Abhidhamma support this position? N: Yes. The Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma. The entire Tipitaka. And the commentaries. As I wrote to Frank, I do not conclude this lightheartedly. I gave this matter much thought, and I mean this. J: Where did you come up with this idea? N: From study, listening to the true Dhamma, considering again and again what I heard, verifying it in my daily life. J: It is no wonder that you have a hard time explaining this position to > others because there is absolutely no justification/foundation for it. N: Foundation yes, see above. Explaining is of course difficult, it depends on the listener. Is he openminded and ready for it? You see, that is the question. J: Also, who are the 'we' that you refer to. I'm starting to get the > creeps. Have I stumbled into some kind of weird Abhidhamma cult and > you are its leader? I'm sorry, but memorizing a bunch of Pali terms > isn't going to bring anyone panna. N: Hey James, what are you saying now? I cannot take this seriously. I wish you would always write to others as you do to the starkids. Then you are just, to say it in conventional terms, your natural self, sympathetic, kind, more relaxed. J: The eightfold path is the path to > panna...and the eightfold path includes meditation. Anyone who denies > that is really out of touch with reality. N:Right concentration is part of the eightfold Path, but it has to be accompanied by right understanding in order to be concentration of the eightfold Path. Just meditation without right understanding will not get you anywhere. We have to be very, very sure: What is exactly the subject of meditation and what does it bring. Detachment? Is there a way to know? I think not without panna. I will not deny that you can help other people who are in trouble with your meditation techniques, as I understood you were doing, James. But above I am speaking in the context of the eightfold Path. Insight knowledge of the three characteristics of all conditioned realities has to be developed in order to reach the goal. Can you not accept that in the Buddha's time and also now people have different temperaments, different inclinations different interests? As I recently wrote: on this list we all respect each other and feel that we can learn from each other, even though we may not agree. Let us keep it that way. I respect your views on Abhidhamma and Pali, and I hope you respect my views. I like this dialogue with you, James, except a few sentences, see above. I am taken up with writing and translating very much, and I hope you and others do not mind if I do not always answer posts or delay in answering. I have to limit my posts somewhat, I notice. Best wishes, from Nina. 19363 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Swee Boon and all, Thank you, Swee Boon of all the texts you have given. For those who like to compare different texts I shall quote one of my old posts on calm and insight: When in Bgk I attended the Committee meeting of the Foundation, in the library, where all texts were pulled out and studied. We compared this sutta with the "Coupling of powers", yuganaddha dhamma with the texts in the Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga), Ch XI, Treatise on Coupling, p. 291 and following, and its commentary (in Thai, p. 495, 463). Here it was explained, calm and insight are accompanying lokuttara citta. This is clear. It shows again how careful we have to be in discriminating texts. We have to find out: is samadhi here with lokiya citta or lokuttara citta. Co states that the citta has nirodha as object (gocara), that is nibbana. Then samatha and vipassana are coupled, the one does not exceed the other, because of voidness. Nina op 01-02-2003 17:39 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > > I think this is a very interesting topic. To my understanding, there > is a difference between the insights before the path and the path > (higher wisdom) itself. Insights before the path can be developed > without concentration. But to attain the path (higher wisdom), > concentration is necessary. 19364 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 7:30am Subject: Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 2 Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 2 There are six groups, kalåpas, of rúpa originating from citta: 1. The pure octad, suddhatthaka [5] kalåpa, a group of eight rúpas consisting of only the eight inseparable rúpas (avinibbhoga rúpas). These rúpas originate from citta, but they do not cause movement such as it occurs in the assuming of different postures, and they do not condition the conveyance of a meaning. They condition for example breathing. 2. The nonad of bodily intimation, kåya-viññatti, a group of nine rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and bodily intimation. These rúpas originate from the citta that wishes to convey a meaning while making this known through the body. 3.The decad of speech intimation, vací-viññatti, a group of ten rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas (avinibbhoga rúpas), speech intimation (vacíviññatti) and sound (sadda rúpa). These rúpas originate from citta when one normally speaks and in that case the rúpa of speech intimation is the condition for the arising of speech sound. The ³Visuddhimagga² explains in the ³Description of the Aggregates² (XIV, 62): ³Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth-element that causes that occurrence of speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung-to-matter [6]. Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of voice in speech. Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated earth element (pathaví dhåtu). But it is called Œverbal intimation¹ because it is the cause of the intimating of intention by means of the voice in speech, and because it is itself intimatable through speech, in other words, through that voice in speech.² Thus, when citta produces sound, this arises in a group of ten rúpas which also include the rúpa of speech intimation. This group of rúpas originates from citta which intends to utter sound that is ordinary speech in daily life. If someone utters speech with difficulty or without clarity, this is because the great Elements (the four principle rúpas) that constitute the soundbase are produced by temperature and by nutrition which are unsuitable; in that case they are not the right conditions for uttering sound in a natural way and with ease, sound that is clear. 4. The undecad of lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahutå, plasticity, mudutå, and wieldiness, kammaññatå. This group of rúpas originate from the citta which conditions the assuming of different postures and the natural movement of the body, without the intention to convey a specific meaning. 5. The dodecad of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti, and lightness, a group of twelve rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas, rúpas of changeability, and bodily intimation. This group of rúpas originates from citta which wants to convey a meaning by way of bodily motion that is special, capable of expressing that meaning. 6. The tridecad of speech intimation, vacíviññatti, sound and lightness, a group of thirteen rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas, sound and speech intimation. This group of rúpas originates from the citta which intends to cause the arising of a specific sound which is dependent on the vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability. That sound can arise on the sound-base when one intends to produce a special sound, such as in the case of singing or speaking. Footnotes 5. Suddha means pure. 6. Clung-to-matter is in Pali upådiùùa rúpa, rúpa that is grasped at, produced by kamma. It is in this case the vocal apparatus. 19365 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 7:30am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 21 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 21 We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² (Miscellaneous Sayings) about the defilements which can arise in the process of developing the perfections. When one is developing the perfection of patience the defilement can arise of ³discriminating thoughts of oneself and others.² For some people patience is limited, they have patience only with regard to some people and only sometimes. They compare another person with themselves and this is a condition for impatience. When sometimes more patience arises and at other times impatience, we should know that the defilement of discriminating thoughts of oneself and others hinders the development of patience. We read in the same section of the Commentary that one can be misled by the defilement of craving and that this hinders the development of all the perfections. In the Ovåda-påtimokkha the Buddha exhorted the monks to have patience. There are two kinds of Påtimokkha: the Ovåda-patimokkha and the Ånå-påtimokkha [24]. The Ovåda-påtimokkha, the exhortation to the Påttimokkha, is an important principle of teaching or instruction. The Ånå-patimokkha are the rules of the Vinaya which are an important foundation to be applied by the monks in their conduct. In the Ovåda-påtimokkha the Buddha taught the significance of the perfection of patience in three stanzas and in addition two more verses. We read in the ³Sublime Story² (Mahåpadåna Sutta, Dialogues of the Buddha II, no. XIV): Stanza 1: khantí paramam tapo titikkhå [25]: forbearing patience is the highest ascetism. nibbånam paramam vadanti Buddhå: nibbåna is supreme, the Buddhas say. na hi pabbajito parúpaghåti: he, verily, is not a recluse who harms another. samano hoti param vihethayanto : nor is he an ascetic who oppresses others. Stanza 2: sabba-påpasså akaranam: not performing evil kusalassa upasampadå: accomplishing what is wholesome, doing all kinds of kusala. sacitta-pariyodapanam: purification of one¹s citta. etam Buddhånasåsanam: this is the teaching of the Buddhas. Stanza 3: anupavådo anupaghåto: not insulting, not harming. ptìimokkhe samvaro: restraint according to the påtimokkha mattaññutå ca bhattasmim: knowing moderation in food. pantañca sayan¹ åsanam : a secluded dwelling adhicitte ca åyogo: endeavour as to higher consciousness (development of calm of citta) etam Buddhånasåsanam: this is the teaching of the Buddhas. Footnotes: 24. Påtimokkha means obligation. Ovåda means admonition or exhortation. Ånå means command. 25. Titikkhå means endurance. 19366 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, , contemplation and insight, careful noticing Dear Kom, Thank you very much, as always very useful what you consider and write about. op 31-01-2003 21:04 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: when people asked the Buddha to explain to them the path (or the > practice) in brief, and he said that the path leads to comprehension, > detachment, enlightenment, and nibbana. We may not be able to find out for > ourselves if the path that we are on leads to enlightenment or nibbana or > not, but we can know, little by little, if we begin to understand more about > nama and rupa, and if this leads to more attachment. 19367 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Nina, > The Co explains that the Way is the first stage of enlightenment. > As to the second factor, the monk is already used to developing > insight and then samadhi arises. As to the third factor, he is > aware and considers the sankharas, jhanafactors, in between the > different stages of jhana he enters and emerges from. As to the > fourth factor, he has abandoned the ten defilements of vipassana. > He does not cling to samatha nor to vipassana. I am particularly unsure as to what is meant by the fourth factor. I think this is the pure insight vehicle whereby samatha is automatically issued when insight is completed. Would you please elaborate on it? > Then, when we read about jhanas, we will understand all these > passages in their right perspective. No more doubts whether all > of us should develop jhana. Does that mean jhana is a requisite for Sotapanna Enlightenment? I have read about jhana concentration, access concentration and momentary concentration. I think Sotapanna Enlightenment (First Path) requires merely momentary concentration. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19368 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 8:33am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi James, > (James: Well, see, you have your answer in this sutta. There is a > difference between tranquility and concentration. One is to > erradicate passion and one is to erradicate ignorance. I don't see how concentration is equivalent to insight. I think concentration leads to tranquility and mindfulness leads to insight. If concentration alone leads to insight, other sects that practices concentration would have beaten the Buddha in the race to nibbana. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19369 From: Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 3:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi, Bhante - How are you? :-) In a message dated 2/2/03 1:01:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, sanz@n... writes: > Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I concentrate to shoot > and kill somebody, do I find concentration. No. Metta. Ven. Yanatharo =================================== In the foregoing, you meant " I go to war, they give me a rifle, I concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find .", right? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19370 From: Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 3:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi again, Bhante - In a message dated 2/2/03 1:07:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, sanz@n... writes: > Correction, Do I find tranquility. No. Venerable Yanatharo > > ========================= Whoops! Sorry, I should have waited to read this! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19371 From: Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 4:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/2/03 2:04:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Once again, I refer to my favourite sutta. I find that there is > indeed a subtle difference between tranquility and (right) > concentration. Tranquility arises out of the Noble Eight-fold Path, > which includes Right Concentration. But tranquility does not precede > (right) concentration as claimed by James. > ========================== Right concentration and tranquillity are mutually supportive. From your own experience, when the mind is upset, not tranquil, can it concentrate well? Conversely, when the mind is tranquil, but also not overcome by sloth and torpor, is it not easier to concentrate? Also, the word 'samatha' means 'calm', not concentration. They are realted but different. Samatha meditation, the cultivation of calm, has (right) concentration as its central tool. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19372 From: Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi, James - In a message dated 2/2/03 9:49:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > James: Well, see, you have your answer in this sutta. There is a > difference between tranquility and concentration. One is to > erradicate passion and one is to erradicate ignorance. Hmmm...but I > get the feeling that my posts give you neither tranquility or > concentration! ;-) ========================== I think you may be making a terminological error here. When you speak of "concentration," I think that at least some of the time what you actually mean is "mindfulness". Concentration -> tranquillity (and temproary suppression of defilements) Mindfulness (with supporting factors) -> insight (and eventual erradication of ignorance) Of course, mindfulness supports concentration, and the tranquillity arising from concentration supports both mindfulness and concentration. All the factors are interrelated. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19373 From: James Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > I think you may be making a terminological error here. When you speak > of "concentration," I think that at least some of the time what you actually > mean is "mindfulness". > > Concentration -> tranquillity (and temproary suppression of > defilements) > > Mindfulness (with supporting factors) -> insight (and eventual > erradication of ignorance) > > Of course, mindfulness supports concentration, and the tranquillity > arising from concentration supports both mindfulness and concentration. All > the factors are interrelated. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, Yes, the terminology I am using is to meet modern standards, not what the Buddha taught based on his standards. Let's face facts, in this day and age of television, radio, newspapers, entertainments, processed foods with stimulants and preservatives, the last thing anyone needs to worry about is having too much concentration! I teach young people so I know! What people need to worry about is having enough concentration. I emphasize concentration because it is what we all need that we lack so much. In the Buddha's time, ascetics would focus their mind on a single object or word for days at a time…now, is that likely to happen today? When the Buddha spoke against concentration he was speaking against a type of concentration that no one even comes close to today! I don't even know many monks who can concentrate for a significant length of time so householders, with their daily distractions, should have even less to worry about. Put simply, the true path is tranquility combined with concentration = attention (mindfulness) = insight. However, what most people practice today is tranquility combined with weak attention = superficial insight. What most people are missing is the power of concentration. The Buddha wanted to de-emphasize the role of concentration; today we need to re-emphasize it. Metta, James 19374 From: James Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi James, > > > (James: Well, see, you have your answer in this sutta. There is a > > difference between tranquility and concentration. One is to > > erradicate passion and one is to erradicate ignorance. > > I don't see how concentration is equivalent to insight. I think > concentration leads to tranquility and mindfulness leads to insight. > > If concentration alone leads to insight, other sects that practices > concentration would have beaten the Buddha in the race to nibbana. > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon Hi NEO, Wow, you are brave to address me again...even though I may engulf you in flames! :-). Actually, I do agree with you. I explained in my recent post to Howard. I am sorry that you feel offended by my posts, and I am sorry to Nina and Jon if they feel the same way, but being very blunt is my personality and accumulations (those Ugly Americans! hehehe...). It is nothing personal and I highly respect everyone on this list because they do what so few do: THINK! Metta, James 19375 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 0:09pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Victor, I'm sincerely happy for your confidence Victor, may it grow and strengthen - For the moment, I'll just stick with having awareness of the presence of doubt as Swee Boon suggests. It is within myself that the matter will be resolved (or not). Making the finer details a subject for discussion won't help at all, at least that has been my past experience of such things. Those who will engage at all in the discussion will merely take such positions as their own needs dictate. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I would be interested to know an opinions and/or an attitude that > the Buddha expressed yet could not be hold by an enlightend being. > > Regards, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > Hi Victor, > > > > I understand John Bulitt to be saying 'don't worry about having to > > know whether the Buddha actually said everything in the Suttas, > find > > out for yourself if it is true'. Sounds reasonable. His > assumption > > seems to be that one will find that it all proves to be true. > But > > what does one do when the Buddha expresses an opinion, an > attitude, > > that one believes to be an opinion, an attitude, that an > enlightened > > being could not hold? For me, it tends to undermine the rest of > the > > scriptures. > > > > Thanks for the link, Victor - I've only had a brief look so far, > and > > it does seem very worthwhile. > > > > metta, > > Christine 19376 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 1:56pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Friend. You are correct there. That is why I said in my original email that in Buddhism that could be right. But in normal life the meaning of the two words are different. I agreed with you that during concentration and meditation I always find tranquility. Ven. Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: nidive [mailto:nidive@y...] Enviado el: Domingo, Febrero 02, 2003 05:22 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Venerable Yanatharo, > Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I > concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find tranquility? > No. But this is wrong concentration. Wrong concentration cannot produce tranquility. In another example given by James (which I have no wish to continue to respond to, because I do not really know how to explain to him my position, and he flares up pretty easily), he says a person who goes on vacation (to Hawaii) has tranquility. This is NOT tranquility as taught by the Buddha. A person who goes on vacation is attached to sensual desires of the eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. Tranquility as taught by the Buddha has the suppression of sensual desires. Anguttara Nikaya II.30 Vijja-bhagiya Sutta A Share in Clear Knowing "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? PASSION is abandoned. "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of PASSION is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html With Great Respect, NEO Swee Boon 19377 From: Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 2:18pm Subject: Way 45, Comm, Deportment "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Modes of Deportment, p.57 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html He who knows (that by the diffusion of this process of oscillation born of mental activity take place going, standing, sitting and lying down) pursues the line of thinking (called investigation) in the following manner: "A living being goes," "A living being stands," (according to the false belief of those unacquainted with the reality of the matter or according to conventional speech), but there is no living being going or standing. This talk of a living being going or standing is similar to speech in the following way: "A cart goes." "A cart stands." In fact there is no going cart and no standing cart. When with bulls (tied to a cart) a skilled driver is driving, one conventionally speaking says: "A cart goes" or "A cart stands." In the sense of a thing not able to go of itself, the body is like the cart. Mind-born oscillation are like the bulls. Mind is like the driver. When the thought, "I go," or the thought "I stand," arises, the process of oscillation producing expression comes to existence. By the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity, going and the other modes of deportment take place, and then there are these forms of conventional speech: "A living being goes," "A living being stands," "I go," "I stand." Therefore the commentator said: Just as a ship goes on by winds impelled, Just as a shaft goes by the bowstring's force, So goes this body in its forward course Full driven by the vibrant thrust of air. As to the puppet's back the dodge-thread's tied So to the body-doll the mind is joined And pulled by that the body moves, stands, sits. Where is the living being that can stand, Or walk, by force of its own inner strength, Without conditions that give it support? Accordingly this yogi, who considers by way of causes and conditions, the states of going, standing and so forth, knows well that he is going, when he is in the state of going, that he is standing when he stands, that he is sitting when he sits, and that he is lying down when he lies down, as it is told in the passage in the discourse beginning with the words: "When he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going.'" 19378 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 2:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 21 Dear All, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 7:30 AM I was curious about the secluded dwelling part (as being relevant to the recent living in seclusion thread) in Nina's translation, so I looked up the commentaries on this section, and here's the tidbits interesting to me: > Stanza 2: > sabba-påpasså akaranam: not performing evil This means all sorts of akusala. [We may think of performing evil means doing something to harm other only, but according to the commentaries, this is not so]. > kusalassa upasampadå: accomplishing what is > wholesome, doing all kinds of > kusala. This means all levels (bhumi) of kusala, from Kamavacara (mundane), rupavacara (jhana with form), arupavacara (jhana without form), and lokuttara (supramundane). > sacitta-pariyodapanam: purification of one¹s citta. This purification is accomplished when one becomes an arahat. [We can see that one is not yet purified even with jhana.] > mattaññutå ca bhattasmim: knowing moderation in food. > pantañca sayan¹ åsanam : a secluded dwelling Although only 2 types of sustenance (food and dwelling) are mentioned here, all 4 are meant (including clothes and medicine). Thank you, Nina. kom 19379 From: Andrew Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 3:30pm Subject: Re: To Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello Swee Boon, > > This was particularly helpful: "She should > train her mind to know doubts as doubts. When doubts arise, she > should know that doubts arise. When doubts do not arise, she should > know that doubts do not arise. In this way, being mindful of doubts, > doubts is lessened, not strengthened. Doubt is one of the > defilements destroyed by the sotapanna." > Hi Christine Sorry to be "implicated" in your doubts! My last post was perhaps not very useful - a deficiency well remedied by Swee Boon. As you know, I too come from a Christian background and had a feeling I wasn't being honest with myself. When I have doubts about the Dhamma, I like to try to be brutally honest. Do I know what the Buddha really taught? Honest answer: no. Am I certain that the Tipitika hasn't been "adulterated"? Honest answer: no. If I don't know these things, I feel it does me no good to pretend that I do. I think this is what Swee Boon means by "see doubts as doubts". It is just pure honesty and it no longer disturbs me. Neither am I turned away from the Dhamma by the fact that I don't understand it all (or even by the possibility that some of the Tipitika is wrong view). When western scientists talk about "infinite universes" and so on, I don't have a clue what that really means, but I can't and don't dismiss it out of hand. I am a blind man tugging at the elephant's tail. What I do know is what I can experience in this (slightly over) six-foot body of mine. There are people on this list who tell me I'll eventually come across "tusks". I am interested to hear about such things but - in all honesty - I won't know until I get to experience it myself. As a result, I don't become attached to "tusks" or get upset when people suggest they don't exist. Welcome to samsara! Another old Japanese saying: "even hell is a dwelling place". If that's all you've got, that's all you've got! metta Andrew 19380 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 4:38pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Victor, > Those who will engage at all in the > discussion will merely take such positions as their own needs > dictate. > > metta, > Christine > What you say is of course true, but which aspects of a person's life are *not* governed by the same personal dictates? Is not each and every post a mirroring of a thousand known and unknown intentions? Likewise each and every act? Having censored a post to a point where you feel it conforms to certain requirements you feel should apply to it does not make it any less a product of your own needs. Be well Herman 19381 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 9:26pm Subject: Hi all Hello all, ` just a short message to say I'm not really posting a message at this stage. First, I have to catch up on a backlog of dsg emails -- brought about by my attending to other (lesser), commitments and computer problems. The quality of recent discussions has been superb even by dsg standards; little wonder that lurkers and semi-lurkers like me are happy just to read them. For various reasons, taking part doesn't come easily but I must show the flag occasionally, if only out of courtesy and appreciation. Mike, it's great to see you back. I should learn from your first message to NEO Swee Boon -- one word! I can do that! Kind regards Ken H 19382 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 1:53am Subject: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Hi James & All, James to NEO: “Wow, you are brave to address me again...even though I may engulf you in flames! :-).” ..... I think we all expect this by now.......rather like asking Mr Wolf what time it is and fully expecting it to be dinner-time;-) Herman just asked: “Is not each and every post a mirroring of a thousand known and unknown intentions?” I think this is a very good question and it reminded me of the Ambalattika Rahulovada Sutta. As we know, the Buddha gave Rahula the most precious legacy - the legacy of the truth contained in the Dhamma and this sutta was taught to him when he was 7 yrs old soon after he was ordained. He uses appropriate and imaginative similes such as that of the king’s elephant to show the harm of telling lies and then asks: “What do you think, Rahula; for what purpose is a mirror?” Rahula answers that it is ‘For the purpose of reflecting, Lord”. ( note: ‘Paccavekkhanattho; comy: for the purpose of looking at, for seeing any blemishes in the face.’). The Buddha replies: “Similarly, Rahula, having reflected, having reflected should bodily action be done; having reflected, having reflected should verbal action be done; having reflected, having reflected, should mental action be done.” The Buddha continues to stress that Rahula should reflect whether these various actions are skilful or unskilful, i.e whether they lead to one’s own harm, the harm of others or to both. Unskilful action, we read, ‘entails suffering’ and is ‘productive of pain’, whereas the skilful action ‘entaisl pleasure’ and is ‘productive of happiness’. Finally in the sutta, we read: “For whosoever, Rahula, in the distant past - Samanas or Brahmanas - purified their bodily, verbal and mental actions, - they all did so in exactly the same way - by constantly reflecting. Further, whosoever, Rahula, in the distant future - Samanas or Brahmanas - shall purify their bodily, verbal and mental actions, - they too will all do so in exactly the same way - by constantly reflecting. And further, whosoever, Rahula, at the present time - Samanas or Brahmanas - purify their bodily, verbal and mental actions - they all do so in exactly the same way - by constantly reflecting. “Accordingly, Rahula, thus must you train yourselves: ‘By constantly reflecting shall we purify our bodily actions; by constantly reflecting shall we purify our verbal actions; by constantly reflecting shall we puify our mental actions”. ***** Elsewhere we read that Rahula was praised as one who was ‘foremost among those keen to learn, eager in following the Training’(sikkha-kaama). At the end of this discourse he was ‘delighted’ and ‘rejoiced’. Holding up the mirror, reflecting wisely, meditating in action and practising what we preach to the young may not be so easy. Sometimes we don’t ‘rejoice’ like Rahula and we forget the purpose of the mirror;-( James:“but being very blunt is my personality and accumulations” None of us are dealt an easy hand . Understanding kilesa (defilements) and accumulations for what they are and developing detachment and wise consideration takes tremendous patience, sincerity and courage. I think we’re all here on DSG to help and support each other in this regard. Let me sign off by quoting some helpful comments that a good friend has written here to other ‘Young and Young at Heart’ members which may be a helpful mirror for us all. (In order of appearance on DSG to the Star Kids over the last 3 mths) ***** “Buddhism will make you happy because it helps you to see things as they really are. Then there is no need for fear, or sadness, or being mean to other people.” “I believe, with all my heart, in the Buddha, his teachings, and the need to have and support Buddhist friends and monks. These three things are called ‘the Triple Gem’, and to me they are worth more than any gems like diamonds, rubies, or emeralds.” “He reminds me what I already know, but I sometimes can’t see it or won’t see it because I can be too busy working at being ‘xxxxx’” “The Buddha also taught that people view themselves very much like a ‘toy’ or something that they ‘own’. But in the case of ourselves, we didn’t get to choose if we wanted our self or not; like Christmas, we were just born with this ‘gift’ of ourselves that we had no choice about.” “Showing the highest respect to adults and teachers is very important in life. It is the guidance and love of adults that will guarantee you a good future.” “Life is kinda like a test.......And when we get done with the test, when we die, it isn’t important how many answers we got right and how many we got wrong, the important thing is how hard we tried. Doing our absolute best will get us all a GOLD STAR!” “Some things can’t be completely changed. What we both need to do is to apologize freely and frequently.” “Try to understand where other people are coming from......Each star in the universe shines in a different way.” “Try to get along this Christmas and shoot for all year long.” “Buddhism is about kindness, generosity, honesty, goodness, truth, compassion; and Buddhism is also about wisdom, tranquillity, and ultimate truth........It is about how we can live the best way possible without hurting each other and ourselves.” “It is a path that is taken step by step.” “I am a Buddhist 24 Hrs a day, everyday of the week.....If I stopped caring about the happiness of others, I would stop caring about my own happiness.” “Puppies have to be shown over and over and over again how to act because they forget.” “Buddhists believe there are two types of things in the world: Mind and Matter, called Nama and Rupa in Pali. And just as matter never disappears, it just changes, mind also never disappears, and it just changes.” “The Buddha taught us all how to build a kind of happiness that comes from inside and isn’t dependent on doing things or getting things.” “You may also think that adults are really different from little kids, but that is not always true either. Sometimes adults can be the most childish of them all. People are people, and they should all be treated equally...in priase and chastisement.” “Patience is a virtue;-)” ***** I’ve appreciated looking through the posts to the Young and reflecting on these gems;-) Thanks James and metta, Sarah ===== 19383 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 1:57am Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Dear Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: Hi Herman, I think my difficulty is that I have tended to treat the buddhist scriptures in the same way I was taught to regard the Holy Bible - as sacred writings of divine origin and authority, which under no circumstances was to be questioned. And sometimes, it seems to me, that buddhists regard the Canon in the same way. So when one comes across something that causes a "But that I can't believe" reaction, it prompts a re-assessment of a previous comfortable certainty regarding the infallibility of the Teachings. The dilemma for me is that either the teachings are the unadulterated word of the buddha, in which case I have some problems - or - the teachings have changed over time with accretions and alterations, are not exactly what the Buddha taught. In which case, I have a different set of problems. I think my raft has some holes, but I'm bailing fast. :-) metta, Christine KKT: So the problem with you is: You want << certainty >>, dont' you? :-)) You left the Church because it fails to give you this << certainty >> So you will leave Buddhism if it fails to give you this same << certainty >>, will you not? (just joking :-)) But this << certainty >> could only come from within, Christine :-)) If you look for this certainty from words (Tipitaka or whatever) then you could not avoid such << crisis >> of doubt :-)) But do not fear doubt because doubt is << healthy >> :-)) I like the Christian expression << THE DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL >> Best wishes, KKT 19384 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] maharahulovada sutta, Co, no 2. Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Sarah, thank you, I was hoping you would add the BB notes. > In the Pali Proper Names I read about Rahula. He was so eager to be > taught, > that in the morning he took a handful of sand and said, today as > many words of counsel from my teachers as there are here grains of > sand.> ..... Yes. As we know, such eagerness has to be accumulated over many lifetimes. In Nyanaponika’s introduction, he writes :The venerable Rahula was always amenable to advice, and to this virtue of his, practised also in former lives, refer two Jatakas: No 16:Tipa attha-miga-Jataka, and No 319: Tittira Jataka”, ..... > I also read, love > for Devadatta, Angulimala and Dhanapala as he did for Rahula.> ..... This is love as metta! ..... Thankyou for all your additional commentary notes. Apparently, Rahula was 18 yrs when he was given this discourse and 21yrs when he was given the Cula-Rahulovada sutta and afterwards attained arahantship. Nyanaponika writes that ‘when the Buddha preached the “Discourse on the heirs of the Dhamma (Dhamma-daayaada Sutta, MN3), in which he distinguished between the heirs to worldliness and the heirs to truth, this may well have evoked in Him the memories of little Rahula’s request for his heritage.” Just a couple more brief comments on small ‘snips’ from your translation: ..... N:> Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Rahula, M, sutta 62., no 2. > We read further on in the Commentary: ruupa.m, > whatever are ruupas (material phenomena), this is explained in detail in > the > Visuddhimagga, khandha niddesa. As to the words, n'eta.m mama, this is > not > myself, this has been explained in the "Greater Discourse on the > Elephant's > Footprint" (M 28). ..... Rupas and all other phenomena to be seen as they really are as we read about in these suttas. B.Mahinda (translator of Wheel version) gives a footnote on the meaning of dhatus (elements) which may be of particular interest to those from a philosophy background: “The four great essentials to which the Buddha first directs the attention of Rahula are: pathavi, apo, tejo and vayo, known as “dhatus” in Pali. “Dhatu” is defined as “that which bears its own intrinsic nature;” its most appropriate English equivalent being “element”. But it must not be hastily assumed from this that we are here dealing with the four “elements” of the ancient Greek philosophers, namely: earth, water, fire, and air; since, in the Abhidhamma sense, the four “dhatus” imply extension or solidity (pathavi), cohesion (apo), heat (tejo), and motion or vibration (vayo).” . ..... N: > Rahula > was clever in the methods of teaching. When the Buddha said, "one should > not > act like this", he realized even a hundred or a thousand methods, of > "one > should act like this, one should not act like that". And even so, when > the > Buddha said, "one should act like this", he considered in that way > according > to many methods.> ..... We get a good indication of how little was needed to be heard for the key disciples to fully understand the Teachings. This is also how Sariputta could understand all the intricate details of the Abhidhamma so swiftly too, I believe. In appreciation, With Metta, Sarah p.s I’m finding the Dhamma Issues series on ‘Intimation’ very interesting and clearly presented, though I understand how others may prefer to put it off for a rainy day;-). ================================== 19385 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 3:32am Subject: Right Concentration Hi All, From what I have read from the Suttas from ATI, it has always given me the impression that Right Concentration means purely the attainment of the jhanas. Nevertheless, "deep down in my heart", I know that this is wrong, but I could not justify it in concrete ways. The suggestion by Thanissaro Bhikkhu that the monks mentioned in the Susima Sutta had attained at least the first jhana does no help at all. Today is a public holiday and I spent the afternoon reading through the "Useful Posts" on this subject. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Gradual Sayings (II, Book of the Fours, Ch IX, § 7, Kinds of Recluses) Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four? The unshaken recluse, the blue-lotus recluse, the white-lotus recluse, and the recluse who is exquisite among recluses. And how, monks, is one an unshaken recluse? Herein, monks, a monk is a pupil, one who has entered the way; he dwells aspiring for the unsurpassed rest of the toil... And how, monks, is a person a blue-lotus recluse? Herein, a monk, by destroying the asavas, has reached the heart¹s release, the release by wisdom that is free from the asavas, and having realized it abides therein. Yet does he not abide experiencing with his own person the eight deliverances... And how, monks, is a person a white-lotus recluse? Herein, a monk, by destroying the asavas...abides therein, and abides experiencing with his own person the eight deliverances... And how, monks, is a person a recluse exquisite among recluses? Herein a monk when invited enjoys a plentiful supply of robes... Now monks, if rightly speaking one would speak about the recluse exquisite among recluses, it is just of me (the Buddha) that he would rightly use the words... (Nina: The eight deliverances, vimokkha, see Buddhist dictionary (Nyanatiloka) includes both rupa-jhana and arupa-jhana.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- - The above Sutta posted by Nina was very helpful. It shows that Arahantship can be attained without any (mundane) jhana attainment. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - We read in the Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation, that with the Buddha were 500 monks who were arahats. The Buddha said to Sariputta: "There is nothing, Sariputta, for which I blame these five hundred Monks, in deed or word. Of these monks, sixty have the threefold knowledge, sixty have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty are emancipated in both ways, and then others are emancipated by insight (alone)." ("Emancipated in both ways" can be understood with reference to Anguttara Nikaya IX.45.) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-045.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- - The above Sutta posted by Nina was also very helpful. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. Number 1: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. (RobertK: This is the mundane jhanas, the pleasant abiding here and now. They are right concentration but are only right concentration of the eightfold path when they are used as the basis for insight by those who take that path.) Number 2: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. (RobertK: This is a special type of mundane jhana that gives one certain powers; "knowledge and vision" here is not of the type that is part of the eightfold path.) Number 3: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. Number 4: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "These are the four developments of concentration." --------------------------------------------------------------------- - The above Sutta posted by RobertK was very useful. I have always ignored this Sutta because whenever I read Number 2, I always feel bewildered. Now I understand it as the development of abhinna powers approved by the Buddha. All four types of concentration are practiced by the Buddha. But Number 3 and 4 are the really useful types of concentration that will lead to Unbinding and they do not need any jhana attainments. I agree with RobertK when he says "They are right concentration but are only right concentration of the eightfold path when they are used as the basis for insight by those who take that path.". Indeed, even if the mundane jhana was attained but there is no insight as to the five aggregates present in that mundane jhana, what's the point? It cannot be right concentration if there is no insight into the five aggregates associated with that mundane jhana. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - In response to the Susima Sutta, Nina said: The question, atikamma ruupe aaruppaa te kayena phusitva ... transcending rupajjhana and remaining in arupajjhana, (kaya is here mental body, citta and cetasika) one could interprete it in different ways: have you attained arupajhana after having attained rupajjhana: have you both jhanas, no is the answer. What does it mean? We have neither, or, we have rupajhana but not arupajhana, and the latter possibility Ven. Thanissaro finds plausible. Then we should read the whole sutta and commentary, and draw our conclusion. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Indeed, we should draw our own conclusion. My conclusion is that Susima intended to ask the Arahants if they had attained both rupa and arupa jhanas. Whenever I read the Buddha's teachings about the jhanas, he always start from the first jhana. I don't think that I had read any sutta where the Buddha teaches about jhana and he only talks about arupa jhanas without mentioning the rupa jhanas. There is every reason to believe that Susima intended to ask the Arahants if they had attained both rupa and arupa jhanas. He could be just as perplexed as me as to whether jhana and abhinna attainments are necessary for Unbinding. Afterall, he listened to the same Dhamma discourses delivered by the Buddha as I am reading now. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-145.html (RobertK explained the meaning of jhana in the context of this Sutta.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11524 Indeed, the Buddha could not have meant merely the attainment of mundane jhana when he said "Practice jhana". More likely than not, he was telling them to practice concentration type Number 4 that leads to Unbinding. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nina: What people tend to forget: pa~n~naa is a necessary factor for the development of samatha to the degree of jhana. If one thinks that samatha is a base for vipassana: one tends to forget that one has to be highly skilful in jhana, and acquire the masteries (vassis): entering jhana whenever one wishes, changing the stages whenever one wishes, emerging whenever one wishes (see Visuddhimagga). Moreover, the Vis also explains that very few people can attain even access concentration, and the stages of jhana. Vis. XII, 8: It is important to take note of this warning. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - This "warning" was very useful. There are some other posts by Jonothan Abbott which were useful as well. Example: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3539 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/7821 I think this Dhamma Study Group is very blessed to have such well- learned masters of the Dhamma in Nina, RobertK and Jonothan Abbott. I appreciate all of your explanations. On a personal note, I feel that Thanissaro Bhikkhu, by emphasizing on the jhanas in his translation and notes, is making the realization of Magga very unreachable for the common worldling. In contrast, I felt full of hope when I read in ADL Chapter 24: --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Some people think that enlightenment could not occur in daily life, they believe that it is necessary to be in a solitary place in order to attain nibbåna. The development of vipassanå is the development of right understanding of all realities occurring in daily life. When paññå has been developed to the degree that enlightenment can be attained, enlightenment can occur in the middle of one's daily activities. As we have seen, the attainment of enlightenment is only a few moments of citta which arise and fall away within split seconds. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19386 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intention, willing and no-control (was, Descriptive vs Prescriptive) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > To me, to "generate desire, endeavour, > >arouse persistence, uphold & > >exert one's intent for the sake of" > >something is quite conventional effort. > >The Buddha was very good with language, > >and, to me my reading is quite straightforward. > >------------------------------------------------- ... Jon: > To my knowledge, the Buddha *never* encouraged > akusala mind-states of any kind under any circumstances (btw, I have > yet to hear your own view on this point). --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't recall ever having been queried on this issue, nor do I recall ever having indicated that I thought the Buddha might encourage harmful thoughts or actions. Of course, I do not. As far as "generating desire" for something worthwile is concerned, when reading this phrase, I immediately understood 'desire' to mean 'chanda' and not 'tanha'. Actually, the sense I had for "generate desire" was to "create the intention and determination for". -------------------------------------------------- Jon: Sorry if you felt you were being 'queried'. I thought it was an important point to be clear on. So we are agreed that the various expressions in the passage "generate desire, endeavour, arouse persistence, uphold & exert one's intent for the sake of" refer exclusively to kusala factors of one kind or another, and hence to kusala mind-moments only. Now this being so, the 'exertion to develop' must itself be a kusala mind-state. That is to say, it cannot be the intention to have kusala arise instead of a presently-arising akusala mind-state. Would you agree with this as a fair reading of the texts so far? ... --------------------------------------------------- Howard: To an extent I agree with you on this, Jon. I would sound the cautionary note, however, that we - each of us - should not be too certain that we are in possession of the correct translational dictionary for these terms of art (or even that the commentators always were), and, moreover, that sometimes, as Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- Just to clarify, and to expand a little in view of one or two other threads running at the moment, my frame of reference/point of departure here, as always, is to identify what the Buddha said about the topic under discussion, and how the Buddha's words should be understood having regard to the rest of the Tipitaka and the commentaries. There is no such thing as a 'translational dictionary' when it comes to the teachings -- the specific context is so very important. However, in my view, the best source of elucidation of the Buddha's words as we have them is the commentaries (so those who have access to the whole of the commentaries in a language they are comfortable with are fortunate indeed). Some members like to stress the importance of one's own experience. That's fair enough. And it is true that in the end the teachings are to be experienced each person for him- or her-self. But only a Bodhisatta is able to make any real progress entirely on his own. For the rest of us, 'own experience' will mean 'own particular wrong view'. What is needed I believe is the input of the teachings to help break the circle of ignorance and wrong view. This is where, by sharing what we have learnt from our study and practice of the teachings, we can all help each other. Jon 19387 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Howard Regarding your sutta quote (from http://www.buddhadust.org/sutta/dn/33_sangiti/DN33_Sangitisutta.htm#4.2): "Here friends a beggar generates intention, sets his thinking on, rouses energy, and makes an effort - to prevent the arising of bad, unskillful states not yet present in the here and now, - to let go of bad, unskillful states that are present in the here and now, ... - to get skillful states not yet present in the here and now, ... - to retain, establish, rid of confusion, complete, develop, increase, and add to skillful states that are present in the here and now" you say: =============================== Ultimate abandoning arises only as the fruit of wisdom. However, penultimate abandoning can arise as a result of mindfulness accompanied by intention and energy. What I am referring to in this respect is what the Buddha called guarding the senses, by which one fosters kusala states and avoids akusala ones... ************************************************** This passage is another description of the same 4 samma-padhaanas mentioned in the 2 passages in your earlier post which we have been discussing in another thread. We have agreed in that thread that what is being described by expressions such as 'generates intention', 'sets his thinking on', 'rouses energy', and 'makes an effort' in the 4 samma-padhaanas is in fact mind-states that are themselves kusala, not akusala. Furthermore, from the references in other 'samma-padhaana' passages to 'developing the factors of enlightenment' etc it would seem that that it must be kusala of the level of panna that directly experiences the true nature of reality. This interpretation is I think confirmed by the commentarial passage to the Samyutta Nikaya extract cited earlier. In short, the 4 samma-padhaana are references to path moments (mundane or supramundane). So in terms of your ultimate/penultimate classification given above, I would see this as an instance of 'ultimate abandoning arising as the fruit of wisdom'. I have not come across any classification in the teachings of 'penultimate abandoning arising as a result of mindfulness accompanied by intention and energy'. To my reading of the texts and commentaries on samma-padhaana, mindfulness/insight and the intention or effort for the same are really different aspects of the same moment of (mundane or supramundane) path consciousness. Nyanatiloka describes 'padhaana' as 'the 4 right efforts (samma-padhána), forming the 6th stage of the 8-fold Path' (see extract below). Jon Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' padhána: 'effort.' The 4 right efforts (samma-padhána), forming the 6th stage of the 8-fold Path (i.e. sammá-váyáma, s. magga) are: (1) the effort to avoid (samvara-padhána), (2) to overcome (pahána-padhána), (3) to develop (bhávaná-padhána), (4) to maintain (anurakkhana-padhána), i.e. (1) the effort to avoid unwholesome (akusala) states, such as evil thoughts, etc. (2) to overcome unwholesome states, (3) to develop wholesome (kusala) states, such as the 7 elements of enlightenment (bojjhanga, q.v.), (4) to maintain the wholesome states. 19388 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Swee Boon Just a note on the last of the suttas in your post (I may come back on one or two other points later). According to the notes in the Bhikkhu Bodhi of this sutta (in NDB), the commentary states about the second case: "This refers to one who by his natural bent first attains to insight and then, based on insight, produces concentration (samadhi)." and the subcommentary explains: "This is one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassanaa-yaanika)." So I take this passage of the sutta as referring to the person who attains enlightenment without having developed any particular level of samatha first. Jon --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi All, ... But for the path (higher wisdom) to arise, besides insight, concentration is also necessary. This fact is made clear in: On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html In all four cases, concentration is neccessary. The first three cases are cases whereby the disciple EXPLICITLY practises tranquility. In particular, the second case makes it very clear that insight can be developed independently of tranquility (develops tranquility preceded by insight). But in the fourth case, there is no mention of the EXPLICIT practice of tranquility. Instead the disciple attends to purely insight alone. When insight becomes 'full-blown', this is the time the mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. This accounts for the disciple's tranquility (concentration). Thus the path is attained for the disciple in the fourth case. 19389 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Susima Sutta (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) James Regarding the Susima Sutta, SN XII.70 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-070.html) you said in a message to Ray: <> I think it should be pointed out that the commentary to the sutta seems to support the position that the translator seeks to refute. According to the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation (CDB, p.785), the commentary states, regarding the phrase "liberated by wisdom" (panna-vimutta): "He shows: "Friend, we are without jhana, dry-insighters, liberated simply by wisdom"." and the sub-commentary states: "Liberated simply by wisdom: not both-ways-liberated." The note goes on to say: "The commentaries explain the 'panna-vimutta' [liberated by wisdom] arahant to be of five kinds: those who attain one or another of the four jhanas, and the "dry-insighter" (sukha-vipassaka) who lacks mundane jhana but still has the supramundane jhana inseparable from the noble path." [By way of explanation, when reading the above we need to bear in mind that persons who attain jhana first and then enlightenment may be either 'both-ways-liberated' or 'liberated by insight/wisdom alone', depending on whether the attainment of enlightenment was *with jhana as basis*. In other words, a person who attained jhana first and later attains enlightenment, but whose enlightenment is not *with jhana as basis*, is not 'both-ways-liberated', he is liberated by insight/wisdom alone.] Note the reference in the commentary to "supramundane jhana inseparable from the noble path". This of course is right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path. As to how it gets to be developed, the answer is, as I understand it, in the same way that the panna factor gets to be developed, that is, by the development of satipatthana/vipassana (the mundane path). If vipassana is being developed, then all the necessary eightfold path factors are also being developed. My best reading of the teachings anyway. Jon 19390 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Susima Sutta 2 (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Chris (and Swee Boon) Thanks for posting these extracts from the commentary. They are very relevant to one or two current threads. In case the meaning is not self-evident for some, I have summarised the 2 sets of commentary notes: Note 211: Insight knowledge (that is, knowledge of the 3 characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta of dhammas) must be developed first. When and only when that insight knowledge has been fully developed, path knowledge (knowledge of nibbana) arises. Note 212: Path knowledge is the outcome of insight (vipassana), not of the concentration that accompanies tranquillity (samatha). (Swee Boon, note 212 especially is relevant to a comment you made in a recent post that although samatha is not necessary for the development of insight, it is necessary for the attainment of enlightenment. ) Thanks again, Chris, for setting out this material. Jon --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: Hello James, Ray and All, You may be interested in reading part of the translation and notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "Then the Venerable Susima rose from his seat and approached the Blessed One. Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, sat down to one side, reported to the Blessed One the entire conversation he had had with those bhikkhus. [The Blessed One said:] "First Susima, comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 211) "I do not understand in detail, venerable sir, the meaning of what was stated in brief by the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would explain to me in such a way that I could understand in detail what has been stated in brief." "Whether or not you understand, Susima, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 212) "Note 211 states: Pubbe kho Susima dhammatthitinanam, paccha nibbane nanam - Spk: Insight knowledge is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma," which arises first. At the end of the course of insight, path knowledge arises; that is "knowledge of Nibbana," which arises later. Spk-pt: The "stability of the Dhamma" is the stableness of phenomena, their intrinsic nature (dhammanam thitata tamsabhavata): namely, impermanence, suffering, nonself. Knowledge of that is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma." Note 212 states: Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana. Spk-pt: 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanayanika)..." 19391 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Jon, > According to the notes in the Bhikkhu Bodhi of this sutta (in NDB), > the commentary states about the second case: > "This refers to one who by his natural bent first attains to > insight and then, based on insight, produces concentration > (samadhi)." > and the subcommentary explains: > "This is one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassanaa-yaanika)." > > So I take this passage of the sutta as referring to the person who > attains enlightenment without having developed any particular level > of samatha first. Thank you for pointing that out. But what's the difference between the second and the fourth case? An elaboration of the fourth case is found in: Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) Pansadhovaka Sutta * The Dirt-washer http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-100-1.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19392 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical Basis [was: All in a days work] Hi Victor, You may be surprised to hear that I liked your post a lot and agreed with most your comments;-) --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > > Thank you for the reply. > > Searching all directions with my awareness, I find no one dearer > than myself. There is no one dearer than myself. There is no one > dearer than yourself. There is no one dearer than oneself. Whether > one is a worldling or not. ..... OK ..... > In the first part of the exclamation in Raja Sutta: > > Searching all directions > with one's awareness, > one finds no one dearer > than oneself. > > the Buddha stated a universal truth, a truth that is valid to anyone > and everyone. ..... OK ..... > > Based on this truth, the Buddha stated the ethical principle in the > second part of the exclamation: > > In the same way, others > are fiercely dear to themselves. > So one should not hurt others > if one loves oneself. > > This ethical principle, as I see it, is based on empathy, an > understanding that there is no one more dear to others than > themselves. ..... Agreed!! ..... > > I would like to bring to attention the discourse Piya Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-004.html > > In this discourse, the Buddha said: > > "That's the way it is, great king! That's the way it is! Those who > engage in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct > are not dear to themselves. Even though they may say, 'We are dear > to ourselves,' still they aren't dear to themselves. Why is <> >I think there is room to consider whether being dear to oneself > means the same as being attached to oneself. ..... I agree with your comment. I remember once before following the details on ‘piya’ in the Pali-English dict and following it in context. I believe that, like here, it’s often used in a general sense (like when we refer to someone as dear or write ‘Dear Victor’ in English perhaps. In Nina’s translations on the Perfections there were some quotes recently about those with virtues being held 'dear'. I don’t know if the same word was used but probably. In other contexts, the term clearly is associated with attachment, again as it often is in English: see Dhp Piya vagga 1,2,3,4,5 (209-213) eg212 “piyato jaayati soko piyato jaayati bhaya”m piyato vippamuttassa natthi soko, kuto bhaya”m? “From endearment springs grief, from endearment springs fear; For him who is wholly free from endearment there is no grief, whence fear? ***** “Hence hold nothing dear > > In Piyajatika Sutta, the Buddha explained that sorrow, lamentation, > pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come > springing from one who is dear. > > How are sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair born from one > who is dear, come springing from one who is dear? > > Through/by craving. > > There is room to consider whether someone being dear to one means > the same as one is attached to him or her. ..... I agree that it is by craving. I agree there is room to consider this question. The Dhp verses certainly suggest that they can be considered as the same. When I consider myself or others as dear, there is attachment for sure;-)What do you think? ..... We agreed about what Interpretation 1) says. I wish to clarify your comments on 2) on the Udana sutta: > This is mostly correct. However, the second interpretation has not > touched upon that 'holding oneself dear' and/or 'holding dear' > refers to wholesome states and in particular to metta, directed in > the first place to oneself. ..... I think you mention later that there is no attachment involved and you mention metta later. Surely there must be either wholesome or unwholesome states present at these times of ‘holding dear’. Please clarify. ..... > > I think the word "love" has different meanings in the English > language. I don't think that love in the sense of metta/loving- > kindness brings sorrow. Attachment to sensuality does bring sorrow. ..... agreed ..... > > of all. After all, when the'dear' one dies, it is in truth the > strong > > attachment to oneself, one's own feelings and one's own loss that > brings > > the sorrow, isn't it? > > It is craving that leads to sorrow. Craving for sensuality, craving > for becoming, craving for non-becoming. Craving for forms, craving > for sounds, craving for odors, craving for flavors, craving for > tangibles, craving for mind-objects. ..... Just so. What one takes as craving for the other and sorrow at the loss of the other is really craving for forms, sounds, odours etc just as you explain. In other words, craving associated with the 5 khandhas. ..... > I think it might be a good idea to distinguish what is meant by the > word "love" and what is meant by the word "attachment". If someone > is dear to me, does it mean I am attached to him or her? Again, > there is room to consider whether being dear to oneself means being > attached to oneself. ..... Lots of room;-) What do you think? If someone is dear to you, is there any attachment? How is it possible to be dear to oneself without attachment? (I agree that it’s possible in theory at least to think of oneself with alobha-- non-attachment, but I think such moments are pretty rare). > > Love as metta is a quality that will definitely benefit those around > us. > Attachment and clinging do not. .... Yes. In the commentary (I’ll just give one relevant snippets), it is clear that king Pasenadi is not happy when he hears Queen mallika’s words. “As far as I am concerned, it is fitting that I do not behold another dearer than the self. But this outcaste, being inferior from birth, (yet) who was installed by me in an exalted position, does not hold me, who am her lord, likewise dear. She says, face to face with me, that ‘The self alone is dearer’. How hard, truly, is this one, and, having lost his self-possession, reproved her, saying: “Surely for you the Three Jewels are dearer”. The queen said: “It is so as to secure for myself the benefits of heavenly bliss and the bliss of freedom that I fully hold dear the Three Jewels, your majesty; therefore, for me the self alone is dearer”. For what the queen implied was this: “And this whole world holds another dear solely out of self-interest - even in wishing for a son, it wishes (for same) thinking ‘This one will nourish me in my old age’, for a daughter thinking ‘She will propagate the clan for me’, for a wife thinking ‘She will wait upon me (hand and ) foot’, for other relatives, friends and kinsmen, too, by way of their various functions. Hence it is in percieving self-interest alone that this world holds another dear.” ..... I better stop before this becomes one of those ‘overwhelming’ posts. I’m always really happy to reflect on this Udana ‘Piya’ sutta (one of my two or three favourites for nearly 30yrs), so I thank you for this pleasant discussion. ..... > If you like, we can discuss Piya Sutta. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-004.html ..... Fine - happy to discuss this further if you’d like to add more and see if we can find some agreement;-) ..... Metta, Sarah ======= 19393 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Susima Sutta 2 (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Hi Jon, > Note 212: > Path knowledge is the outcome of insight (vipassana), not of the > concentration that accompanies tranquillity (samatha). > > (Swee Boon, note 212 especially is relevant to a comment you made > in a recent post that although samatha is not necessary for the > development of insight, it is necessary for the attainment of > enlightenment. ) Am I correct to say that, Jon? That samatha is not necessary for the development of insight, but it is necessary for the attainment of enlightenment. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19394 From: jonoabb Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:44am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Frank Thanks very much for this interesting and hearfelt support for samatha bhavana as a necessary aspect of vipassana bhavana. I wouldn't wish to discourage you or anyone from developing samatha, but I would like to suggest that having the jhanas as one's immediate goal should not be a reason for giving up on the idea of the development of satipatthana at this present moment. Even if one is of the view that some level of samatha is necessary for attainment of the first stage of enlightenment, does this preclude the possibility of satipatthana being developed at the present moment? To my mind, the answer is clearly 'no'. The whole point of the Satipatthana Sutta seems to be to explain how this aspect of the path can potentially be developed at some level at any moment, regardless of the circumstances, of the wholesomeness or otherwise of the mental state of the present moment, of the level of samatha attained to date, or of any other factor (except of course a proper intellectual understanding of the nature of mindfulness and of the dhammas that can be the object of mindfulness). This is not to say it's easy, far from it. But if 'a cigar is sometimes just a cigar' (Freud, via Howard), then equally I would say that 'mindfulness is always just mindfulness' (or, to use a more modern idiom, 'just do it' (Phil Night)). Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "fcckuan " < fcckuan@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon, > The next time I come across that reference to mindfulness not > being fully developed without right concentration I'll post. Don't > know it off hand. > The triple knowledge: > 1) knowledge of past lives > 2) knowledge of destination of beings at death > 3) knowledge of the destruction of the taints > > Proficiency in Jhana is necessary for the first two, you question > the 3rd one. The reason I believe it's necessary for the 3rd as well > is because it makes sense to me intellectually and intuitively that > one who has such a high level of samatha and concentration and can > directly view reality in such fine granularity to perceive the > subtle processes that identify with this mind body complex that we > take to be "I", and can even trace these "beings" through past lives > and future lives revolving in samsara, it makes sense to me that > these people with jhanic level of concentration can also stop their > own transmigration by nonclinging to these subtle processes that > make the illusion of self-identiy at the moment of physical death. > > One of the metta suttas gives the impression that through > cultivating metta alone one can achieve enlightenment. Similarly, I > think people can over extrapolate things reading suttas about what > level of concentration is necessary for enlightenment. Perhaps you > do need less than jhanic level of concentration to achieve full > liberation. I don't know for sure (yet), but in the meantime, I'm > going to shoot for the path that seems to give me the best odds for > success. In other words, I believe people who can see reality in > such clarity and detail via jhanic level concentration, even if it's > not absolutely necessary, have the best chance of disentangling > themselves from cyclic existence. > > The other reason to master jhanas: What if it turns out that the > canon and possible lack of arahants alive today does not give quite > enough clear instruction on how to get to full enlightenment? If > that is the case that we don't have an unbroken lineage of > enlightenend beings who can point the way to people who are ripe, > which I certainly believe is a pretty strong possibility, jhanic > proficiency seems like the best bet for using existing knowledge > base of dhamma and making the leap and working out the details to > carry it out all the way through on the own. > > -fk 19395 From: James Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 6:01am Subject: Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James & All, > > James to NEO: "Wow, you are brave to address me again...even though I may > engulf you > in flames! :-)." > ..... > I think we all expect this by now.......rather like asking Mr Wolf what > time it is and fully expecting it to be dinner-time;-) From "Wolf" Contrary to popular opinion, wolves are shy, submissive animals. There are many who still think that wolves are a problem in areas where people are around, but there are very few, if any, verified reports of healthy wolves ever seriously injuring humans in North America. ... Some of the reasons for the fear of wolves are obvious. Children's stories present the animal as a menace -- think of Little Red Riding Hood, or The Three Little Pigs -- and old sayings such as "he's a wolf in sheep's clothing" and "keeping the wolf from the door" added more negative impressions. Legends about werewolves haven't helped much, either! Possibly the worst damage came from the supposedly true stories of first-person experiences involving the writer's encounters with a circle of growling, slavering wolves slowly moving in for the kill. Native North Americans and Eskimos admired the wolf and tried to develop its hunting skills in themselves. Settlers, however, depleted the wolf's prey of bison, deer, elk, and moose, leaving the animal with livestock as its only prey. The ranchers' determination to end the destruction of their livestock, along with government cooperation, led to a campaign to eliminate the wolf. As late as 1965, bounty payments of $20 to $50 per animal were paid to anyone who killed a wolf by trapping, shooting from planes and snowmobiles, and hunting with dogs. Putting out poisoned animal carcasses had the unwanted side effect of killing other animals. Wolves are very intelligent and adaptable. With their well developed sense of smell, wolves can locate prey, other pack members, or enemies. This sense also tells them if other wolves have been in the territory, whether they were male or female, and how long ago they were there. A very social animal, the wolf depends on and cooperates with other pack members in defending the territory and obtaining food. Aggression is a part of the wolf hierarchy, as challenges are made to both the male and female Alpha animals. However, aggressive behavior in the pack occupies about 20% of wolf behavior, and seldom involves the combatants receiving wounds, or even any actual fighting. The usual aggressive interaction involves a lot of bumping, chasing, snapping, and vocalization. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/8388/wolf.html Howling Metta, James 19396 From: Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/3/03 7:48:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Regarding your sutta quote (from > http://www.buddhadust.org/sutta/dn/33_sangiti/DN33_Sangitisutta.htm#4.2): > > "Here friends a beggar generates intention, sets his thinking on, > rouses energy, and makes an effort > - to prevent the arising of bad, unskillful states not yet present in > the here and now, > - to let go of bad, unskillful states that are present in the here > and now, ... > - to get skillful states not yet present in the here and now, ... > - to retain, establish, rid of confusion, complete, develop, > increase, and add to skillful states that are present in the here and > now" > > you say: > =============================== > Ultimate abandoning arises only as the fruit of wisdom. > However, penultimate abandoning can arise as a result of mindfulness > accompanied by intention and energy. What I am referring to in this > respect is what the Buddha called guarding the senses, by which one > fosters kusala states and avoids akusala ones... > ************************************************** > > This passage is another description of the same 4 samma-padhaanas > mentioned in the 2 passages in your earlier post which we have been > discussing in another thread. > > We have agreed in that thread that what is being described by > expressions such as 'generates intention', 'sets his thinking on', > 'rouses energy', and 'makes an effort' in the 4 samma-padhaanas is in > fact mind-states that are themselves kusala, not akusala. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. Kusala, not akusala. -------------------------------------------- > Furthermore, from the references in other 'samma-padhaana' passages > to 'developing the factors of enlightenment' etc it would seem that > that it must be kusala of the level of panna that directly > experiences the true nature of reality. This interpretation is I > think confirmed by the commentarial passage to the Samyutta Nikaya > extract cited earlier. In short, the 4 samma-padhaana are references > to path moments (mundane or supramundane). > > So in terms of your ultimate/penultimate classification given above, > I would see this as an instance of 'ultimate abandoning arising as > the fruit of wisdom'. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. The opening line of mine that you quote, indeed, is "Ultimate abandoning arises only as the fruit of wisdom." --------------------------------------------------- > > I have not come across any classification in the teachings of > 'penultimate abandoning arising as a result of mindfulness > accompanied by intention and energy'. To my reading of the texts and > commentaries on samma-padhaana, mindfulness/insight and the intention > or effort for the same are really different aspects of the same > moment of (mundane or supramundane) path consciousness. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: No ned to woory about it, Jon - it's just mundane and conventioanl abandoning anyway! ;-)) [More seriously, this pertains to preliminary training. Guarding the senses is an activity recommended by the Buddha, it is something you and I *can* engage in, and it cultivates the mind.] ------------------------------------------------- > > Nyanatiloka describes 'padhaana' as 'the 4 right efforts > (samma-padhána), forming the 6th stage of the 8-fold Path' (see > extract below). > > Jon > > Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' > padhána: 'effort.' > The 4 right efforts (samma-padhána), forming the 6th stage of the > 8-fold Path (i.e. sammá-váyáma, s. magga) are: > (1) the effort to avoid (samvara-padhána), > (2) to overcome (pahána-padhána), > (3) to develop (bhávaná-padhána), > (4) to maintain (anurakkhana-padhána), > i.e. (1) the effort to avoid unwholesome (akusala) states, such as > evil thoughts, etc. (2) to overcome unwholesome states, (3) to > develop wholesome (kusala) states, such as the 7 elements of > enlightenment (bojjhanga, q.v.), (4) to maintain the wholesome > states. > > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19397 From: david_wheeler58 Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 7:56am Subject: Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Good day James Is this from the Individual Vehicle, the Universal Vehicle, or the Apocalyptic Vehicle? Metta David > > From "Wolf" > > Contrary to popular opinion, wolves are shy, submissive animals. > There are many who still think that wolves are a problem in areas > where people are around, but there are very few, if any, verified > reports of healthy wolves ever seriously injuring humans in North > America. ... > > Some of the reasons for the fear of wolves are obvious. Children's > stories present the animal as a menace -- think of Little Red Riding > Hood, or The Three Little Pigs -- and old sayings such as "he's a > wolf in sheep's clothing" and "keeping the wolf from the door" added > more negative impressions. Legends about werewolves haven't helped > much, either! Possibly the worst damage came from the supposedly > true stories of first-person experiences involving the writer's > encounters with a circle of growling, slavering wolves slowly moving > in for the kill. > > Native North Americans and Eskimos admired the wolf and tried to > develop its hunting skills in themselves. Settlers, however, > depleted the wolf's prey of bison, deer, elk, and moose, leaving the > animal with livestock as its only prey. The ranchers' determination > to end the destruction of their livestock, along with government > cooperation, led to a campaign to eliminate the wolf. As late as > 1965, bounty payments of $20 to $50 per animal were paid to anyone > who killed a wolf by trapping, shooting from planes and snowmobiles, > and hunting with dogs. Putting out poisoned animal carcasses had the > unwanted side effect of killing other animals. > > Wolves are very intelligent and adaptable. > > With their well developed sense of smell, wolves can locate prey, > other pack members, or enemies. This sense also tells them if other > wolves have been in the territory, whether they were male or female, > and how long ago they were there. > > A very social animal, the wolf depends on and cooperates with other > pack members in defending the territory and obtaining food. > > Aggression is a part of the wolf hierarchy, as challenges are made > to both the male and female Alpha animals. However, aggressive > behavior in the pack occupies about 20% of wolf behavior, and seldom > involves the combatants receiving wounds, or even any actual > fighting. The usual aggressive interaction involves a lot of > bumping, chasing, snapping, and vocalization. > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/8388/wolf.html > > Howling Metta, James 19398 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 9:21am Subject: (2)3. Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers Dear Dhamma Friends, Among the four sets of Cetasikas,permanent ministers have been described.In this post,the flexible ministers will be delineated.They are given 'the sense' of 'flexible' because when they work with Akusala Cetasikas,they will become Akusala Cetasikas and when they work with Kusala Cetasikas they will become Kusala Cetasikas.They are called as ''Pakinnaka Cetasikas''. There are six of them who work as flexible ministers. 1.Vitakka It delibrately puts the Citta and other cetasikas on a particular Arammana.It makes sure that Citta is taking that Arammana.It works as a starter and all other Cetasikas and citta start working even though Citta is a leader.He accepts the advice of Vitakka and starts working on that particular sense and so on. 2.Vicara It makes reviews on the arammana and goes all the way round on that particular arammana.It functions as a reviewer.It advises the leader to review and review on the senses. 3.Piti It makes itself,citta and all other cetasikas cheerful.Citta likes the arammana as advised by Piti.In its presence,citta and all cetasikas do their business cheerfully and happily. 4.Viriya It makes exertion,effort,movement of citta.It functions as an effort- maker and sustains the activity. 5.Chandha It advises Citta its wish and Citta implements the wish.It sets a target or a goal.Citta and other cetasikas go hand in hand toward that goal. 6.Adhimokkha It determines the exact job.It advises a decision for Citta.Citta,the leader then decides according to Adhimokkha's advice. These six cetasikas work as flexible ministers to the king Citta.When the king does good things,they functions as good advisers.When the king does bad things,they flexibly agree and advise accordingly. Trying to see or realise these dhamma will have a good chance to probe internal(mental) phenomena. May you have an interest in this post and cast queries. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19399 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Way 42, Comm, Deportment (technical) Dear Jim, Although in midwinter in Canada, you took the trouble to help us with corrections, which I appreciate very much. I shall take careful note of it, Thank you, Nina. op 01-02-2003 22:03 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > > Jim: I think it is not correct to translate "kamma.t.thaanaadibhaavo" or > "kamma.t.thaana.m" as "the development of a meditation subject" 19400 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Hi James (and all Wolves;-)), --- "James " wrote: > Contrary to popular opinion, wolves are shy, submissive animals. ..... S: Oops! Looks like I may have trodden on a paw and accidentally insulted all wolves;-( ..... > Wolves are very intelligent and adaptable. > > With their well developed sense of smell, wolves can locate prey, > other pack members, or enemies. This sense also tells them if other > wolves have been in the territory, whether they were male or female, > and how long ago they were there. ..... S:.....now I’m getting nervous again... ..... > A very social animal, the wolf depends on and cooperates with other > pack members in defending the territory and obtaining food. ..... S:;-);-) ..... > .... The usual aggressive interaction involves a lot of > bumping, chasing, snapping, and vocalization. ..... S: Hmmm, very interesting and I didn’t make these comments;-) Dhp 133 to Mr Wolf: “Speak not harshly to any one: those thus addressed will retort. Painful indeed is vindictive speech; Exchange-blows may touch you.” Hoping to escape without any wounds, Metta, Sarah p.s If you want to see a picture of a wolf called Sarah and one called Buddha go to: http://www.wolvesnwildlife.org/animals.htm If you want to see Lone Wolf James (possibly in transition mode?)go to: http://www.tunevault.com/artist/show.asp?ID=180 ================================================ 19401 From: James Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 8:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Sarah, You have blatantly accused me of wrong speech. I don't agree with you. Actually, I believe that you, Jon, and Nina (the Triumvirate of this group) are guiltier of wrong speech and here are my reasons for this evaluation: (1) Abstaining from false speech (musavada veramani) All three of you speak of the Abhidhamma as if the Buddha taught it. The evidence that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma is overwhelming. This is not a matter of personal opinion; this is a matter of fact. Even though you are all intelligent enough to know that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma, you continue to mislead with half-truths, innuendos, and bold lies about this matter. That is false speech. I have only stated what is accepted scholarship: The Lord Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I have not committed false speech. All three of you are supporting the philosophy that meditation practice isn't necessary in Buddhism. Even though the evidence is overwhelming to the contrary, as is even illustrated in the Lord Buddha's enlightenment, you continue to teach a position that isn't supported with direct evidence. You are well aware of this and yet continue to make this assertion as if it is well supported. That is false speech. I have only stated what corresponds with the true teachings: Meditation is essential in Buddhism. I have not committed false speech. (2) Abstaining from slanderous speech (pisunaya vacaya veramani) Nothing that I have written in my posts is to tear down the reputation of anyone else or to cast doubt onto their personal character. I have not written from jealousy or the desire to be respected or accepted. I have only spoken what I believe to be the truth and strongly question those who support lies and unsupported positions of dharma. However, whenever I do this, you and Jon (but not Nina) try to cast doubt onto my personal charater in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways. Personally, I don't care a great deal about this, your approval is not needed or required, but this is not Right Speech. I stated emphatically that I respect everyone in this group, including you, and you turn around and write two posts comparing me to a wild animal who will attack and injure people. That is slander. I played along, like it was a joke, but not anymore. (3) Abstaining from harsh speech (pharusaya vacaya veramani). This is the one where you may think you excel, but you really don't; and you may think I fail at this, but I am not as bad as you think (but not perfect I must admit). Harsh speech is judged with three criteria: Abusive Speech, Insult, and Sarcasm. Now, you may consider my speech abusive in some respects, but I don't. I consider it blunt and directed toward the right person at the right time. I have never called anyone names or put them down as a person; I have questioned their positions on certain questions of dharma, maybe using unflattering comparisons, but it wasn't judging them. I have also never given anyone fake compliments with backstabbing innuendo that questions them as a person. You equate my questioning positions of dharma as me question the person, but it isn't. However, I could understand why you might think this because this is what you do. You judge me as a person based on my positions: If I agree and am compliant, I am a good person; If I disagree and raise disturbing issues, I am a bad person. It is harsh speech to devalue my worth as a person based on your interpretations of what constitutes right speech. (4) Abstaining from idle chatter (samphappalapa veramani). Idle Chatter is talk that lacks depth or meaning. And, this is very important to realize, IT LACKS DEPTH AND MEANING FOR THOSE RECEIVING THE MESSAGE AS WELL AS THOSE SENDING. I have written several posts to this group trying to get the posts to mean more and be understandable. The universal language of this group is English and yet many members continue to post with un-translated Pali terms. And I don't buy Nina's position that Pali can't be translated into English. Thanisarro Bhikkhu does an excellent job. Pali is a centuries old dead language that isn't very exact. If someone cannot translate the Pali terms in the context of how they are used, they must not understand the message…don't blame the language. Language can be used to bring people together or it can be used to separate people. Posts containing untranslated Pali are idle chatter and they are divisive and elitist. I try to make sure that my posts are always clear, understandable, and to the point. It all comes down to a difficult sticking point, being nice vs. presenting the truth. I have tried to present the truth in the best way I can and each time I do I am accused of not being nice (maybe even attacking and killing people with my words). Obviously I cannot win in this situation (and it isn't the first time), it is time for me to leave. Tell the Star Kids not to write to me anymore; I won't be around to respond. Metta, James 19402 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 9:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Dear James, I aplogise for any offence caused by any inconsiderate or thoughtless comments I’ve made. I certainly would not have made these if it had occurred to me for an instant that you would have taken them so much to heart. We all know that you are very sincere in your presentations of dhamma and I certainly was not intending to accuse you of anything. I see, however, that my light-hearted and frivolous speech could cause offence and be mis-construed in spite of the close friendship and respect you know I have towards you and your study and practise of dhamma. I have plenty to learn, I realise. I accept and respect your views on the Abhidhamma and use of Pali. We have to agree to differ in these regards. I would urge you not to throw away this precious opportunity for dhamma access because of any ill-considered posts of mine or aversion to what Jon, Nina or I might write. Read and discuss dhamma with others who write more to your liking if you prefer. In any event, I wish you very well. with respect and metta, Sarah p.s Again I urge you not to let any annoyance with Jon,myself or others interfere with any sharing of dhamma between yourself and the Kids. Of course, that is your prerogative. ==================== 19403 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 9:55pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Dear James, You are write. Buddha DID NOT TEACH ABIDDHAMMA. Ven. Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: James [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] Enviado el: Martes, Febrero 04, 2003 03:30 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Sarah, You have blatantly accused me of wrong speech. I don't agree with you. Actually, I believe that you, Jon, and Nina (the Triumvirate of this group) are guiltier of wrong speech and here are my reasons for this evaluation: (1) Abstaining from false speech (musavada veramani) All three of you speak of the Abhidhamma as if the Buddha taught it. The evidence that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma is overwhelming. This is not a matter of personal opinion; this is a matter of fact. Even though you are all intelligent enough to know that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma, you continue to mislead with half-truths, innuendos, and bold lies about this matter. That is false speech. I have only stated what is accepted scholarship: The Lord Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I have not committed false speech. All three of you are supporting the philosophy that meditation practice isn't necessary in Buddhism. Even though the evidence is overwhelming to the contrary, as is even illustrated in the Lord Buddha's enlightenment, you continue to teach a position that isn't supported with direct evidence. You are well aware of this and yet continue to make this assertion as if it is well supported. That is false speech. I have only stated what corresponds with the true teachings: Meditation is essential in Buddhism. I have not committed false speech. (2) Abstaining from slanderous speech (pisunaya vacaya veramani) Nothing that I have written in my posts is to tear down the reputation of anyone else or to cast doubt onto their personal character. I have not written from jealousy or the desire to be respected or accepted. I have only spoken what I believe to be the truth and strongly question those who support lies and unsupported positions of dharma. However, whenever I do this, you and Jon (but not Nina) try to cast doubt onto my personal charater in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways. Personally, I don't care a great deal about this, your approval is not needed or required, but this is not Right Speech. I stated emphatically that I respect everyone in this group, including you, and you turn around and write two posts comparing me to a wild animal who will attack and injure people. That is slander. I played along, like it was a joke, but not anymore. (3) Abstaining from harsh speech (pharusaya vacaya veramani). This is the one where you may think you excel, but you really don't; and you may think I fail at this, but I am not as bad as you think (but not perfect I must admit). Harsh speech is judged with three criteria: Abusive Speech, Insult, and Sarcasm. Now, you may consider my speech abusive in some respects, but I don't. I consider it blunt and directed toward the right person at the right time. I have never called anyone names or put them down as a person; I have questioned their positions on certain questions of dharma, maybe using unflattering comparisons, but it wasn't judging them. I have also never given anyone fake compliments with backstabbing innuendo that questions them as a person. You equate my questioning positions of dharma as me question the person, but it isn't. However, I could understand why you might think this because this is what you do. You judge me as a person based on my positions: If I agree and am compliant, I am a good person; If I disagree and raise disturbing issues, I am a bad person. It is harsh speech to devalue my worth as a person based on your interpretations of what constitutes right speech. (4) Abstaining from idle chatter (samphappalapa veramani). Idle Chatter is talk that lacks depth or meaning. And, this is very important to realize, IT LACKS DEPTH AND MEANING FOR THOSE RECEIVING THE MESSAGE AS WELL AS THOSE SENDING. I have written several posts to this group trying to get the posts to mean more and be understandable. The universal language of this group is English and yet many members continue to post with un-translated Pali terms. And I don't buy Nina's position that Pali can't be translated into English. Thanisarro Bhikkhu does an excellent job. Pali is a centuries old dead language that isn't very exact. If someone cannot translate the Pali terms in the context of how they are used, they must not understand the message…don't blame the language. Language can be used to bring people together or it can be used to separate people. Posts containing untranslated Pali are idle chatter and they are divisive and elitist. I try to make sure that my posts are always clear, understandable, and to the point. It all comes down to a difficult sticking point, being nice vs. presenting the truth. I have tried to present the truth in the best way I can and each time I do I am accused of not being nice (maybe even attacking and killing people with my words). Obviously I cannot win in this situation (and it isn't the first time), it is time for me to leave. Tell the Star Kids not to write to me anymore; I won't be around to respond. Metta, James 19404 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 11:10pm Subject: how to trim Emails Dear Kom, Could you or somebody teach me how to trim messages, other wise I feel like a fool sending a few words in reply to a long Email. Venerable Yanatharo 19405 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 11:50pm Subject: Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Dear James, I would like you to know that I will miss your input if you insist on staying away. If it makes any difference to you, I read no malice at all in Sarah's post to you. I thought it was rather funny, actually. Keep the faith, bro :-) Herman PS That photo of you and the little girl with folded hands is one of my favourites. (Hope I haven't got you mixed up with someone else) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: > Sarah, > > You have blatantly accused me of wrong speech. 19406 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Frank, This thread has taken on a life of its own. I’d just like to add a little more on the earlier points in your post to me that I don’t think have been addressed by other discussions: Frank: >>Quoting and sutta citation is good, and I agree with most of your comments (with conditions and in some cases in a slightly different context which can mean the difference between nibanna and hell :-).<< ..... S: You’d have to elaborate. ..... Frank: >>Letting go of attachments to certain types of dhamma practice and shifting of strategy of mindfulness have a proper order, as I understand the suttas, and if certain practices are let go of prematurely, then it can lead to massive suffering.<< ..... S: As I understand ‘right’ practice, it is the same in the beginning, middle and end, i.e the development of satipatthana. So I don’t understand this issue to arise, but pls elaborate. ..... Frank: >> I crave enlightenment. I'm deeply attached to the dhamma, crave and cling deeply to seclusion, developing right concentration in the canonical sense, i.e. JHANAS, cling to virtue, cling to right speech, etc. As long as I have not crossed the ocean of samsara, it is right that I should cling to the raft.<< ..... S: It is certainly honest and good to appreciate just how much attachment there is to these objects as you do. Whether we can say that clinging is ever ‘right’ is another matter.....Do you have support for ‘right clinging’? ..... Frank: >>It is proper to crave and cling to these things that are conducive to cessation of dukkha until such time they are no longer necessary (i.e. full liberation). The raft should not be abandoned prematurely. Unless we are non-returners, it is quite premature to talk about letting go of clinging to dhamma theory, letting go of right concentration. Craving to every type of object, subtle, gross, wholesome and unwholesome, have to be let go of eventually, but in the right order.>> ..... S: Because the clinging, ignorance, occasional right views and wholesome states are so intertwined, I think it’s easy to come away with the idea that you express here that the craving and clinging to cessation of dukkha, dhamma and so on are essential ingredients of the path. I would say that they are inevitable and natural, but should be clearly seen for what they are: unwholesome and obstacles, but with detachment and awareness can also be objects of satipatthana. In other words, any wisdom develops in spite of the craving and not because of it, even though, indirectly, it can be a condition for wholesome states. ..... I’m leaving aside the other comments on seclusion and jhana that others have pursued further. I don’t understand it to be a matter of wishing or deciding what will be developed. Would that it be so simple;-) However, by understanding more about a)present states of mind and in particular whether they are wholesome or unwholesome at this moment, and b) the objects of the wholesome states of mind and just what can be known, samatha or vipassana bhavana can be slowly and gradually developed in the beginning without any special requirements. However, if there isn’t any precise understanding of the difference between wholesome and unwholesome states or if there is the idea that the attachment is necessary or right, I’m not sure how being in seclusion or under any other special conditions will help the development of the practice. I certainly agree that attachment is bound to be there -- and is bound to be far more insiduous than ever imagined -- until the highest stages of enlightenment. I’ll be glad to hear more of your comments or ideas. Metta, Sarah ======= 19407 From: Andrew Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 1:42am Subject: Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > Dear James, > > I would like you to know that I will miss your input if you insist on > staying away. > > If it makes any difference to you, I read no malice at all in Sarah's > post to you. I thought it was rather funny, actually. > > Keep the faith, bro :-) > > Herman > Hello James and Herman Well put, Herman. I hope you decide to stick around, James. I am also sure Sarah's post was written in a friendly manner, as her prompt reply attests. I certainly did not read her post as a "put down" of you and did not think any less of you after reading it. It was just a light-hearted moment. I began my wonderful Buddhist journey in the Tibetan tradition. How often I was told that people we have difficulties with are our greatest teachers. There is much truth in that. Stick around, mate. metta Andrew 19408 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Howard You said: <> To my understanding, to regard the act of seeing as a single bi-polar event would be the so-called conventional view. What the Buddha's teachings disclose, that would not otherwise be apparent to us, is that these apparently single unified events in reality comprise different and discrete phenomena (each having its own individual characteristic or essence (sabhava)) and each arising because of its own separate set of conditions. The fact that the 2 phenomena that you mention as 'polar aspects' are to an extent mutually dependent for that precise moment does not detract from the fact that they are discrete and that they arise due to wholly different conditions. The 'unity' created is not a unity in the absolute/ultimate/fundamental sense of having its own individual essence or characteristic (sabhava). Also, apart from the 2 you mention, there are other phenomena playing equally crucial roles in this event (eye-base for one). (Btw, the mutual dependence spoken of here is mutual dependence as object of experience at that moment, not in the sense of arising in the world.) <> Yes, to reify anything must, by definition, involve a concept of self. However, directly experiencing the true nature of a fundamental phenomenon, in this case either the seeing consciousness or the visible object, is not a reification nor does it involve a concept of self. As Victor has I think been pointing out in his unique way, the line between true awareness and what you refer to as reification is a fine one. So while satipatthana at moments of seeing involves the direct experience of seeing consciousness or visible object, this is to be distinguished from *attempting to see the moment of seeing as being the separate phenomena of seeing consciousness and visible object*. That would be an instance of reifying things, involving ideas of self. My reading of the texts on this aspect, anyway. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina (and Herman) - ... > =========================== > I doubt there is much of value that I can add. I think our > language is > limited. A subject-object experiential event, for example an act of > seeing, > is, to my mind a single event with two polar aspects which, for > lack of > better terminology, we call "subjective" and "objective". With > seeing for > example, we unfortunately use the same word 'seeing' both for the > entire > event, and for its subjective aspect. The entire event is a > seeing-seen unity > for which we have no separate term. When we reify the subjective > pole, we are > "selfing" in the sense of taking that aspect of the event and > making an agent > out of it. When we reify the objective pole, we are "selfing: in > the sense of > making a "thing" out of the objective pole. These are my thoughts > on the > matter. > > With metta, > Howard 19409 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The world and dhammas - 1 Victor Thanks for these comments, and Happy Chinese New Year to you. I think you feel that part of my statement goes beyond the actual words spoken by the Buddha. I agree this is something one needs to be careful about. Here is a further revision which I think addresses this point (if I have understood it correctly): (1) The Buddha taught that in reality there are only different phenomena (dhammas) which are not self. (2) We can therefore say that what we take for ourselves and the world around us, in reality, is nothing more than different phenomena that are not self. (3) These phenomena were classified by the Buddha in various ways, including as sense bases (ayatanas), aggregates (khandhas) and elements (dhatus). Any further comments are welcome :-)). Jon --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Happy Chinese New Year. > > Thanks for the references. What disintegrates is called 'the > world', and the five aggregates are called 'the world.' > > I don't think the Buddha taught what is taken for oneself is or > what > we take for ourselves is. When the Buddhat taught what the five > aggregates are*, he did not teach that they are what are taken for > oneself. > > I appreciate the The world and dhammas series. > > Regards, > Victor > > *Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48, Khandha Sutta, Aggregates > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-048.html 19410 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 4:37am Subject: Re: subject and object Hi Jon, Just some points I wish to raise. You say that regarding the act of seeing as a single bi-polar event is the conventional view. I thought that the conventional view was tri-polar because it includes a subject, verb and object. "I" "see" "blue" is significantly different to " see blue" which may as well be "blue". (Abhidhamma/Visudh does not allow for "hear blue" which does not accord with observation) Your last paragraph includes "So while satipatthana at moments of seeing involves the direct experience of seeing consciousness or visible object" . Does this mean satipatthana experiences objectless seeing , and seeingless object? If there is no object, how would you know seeing wasn't hearing? All the best Herman PS Are you involved at all in the drafting of the new constitution for Hong Hong? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > > You said: > < is, to my mind a single event with two polar aspects ... The entire > event is a seeing-seen unity ...>> > > To my understanding, to regard the act of seeing as a single bi- polar > event would be the so-called conventional view. What the Buddha's > teachings disclose, that would not otherwise be apparent to us, is > that these apparently single unified events in reality comprise > different and discrete phenomena (each having its own individual > characteristic or essence (sabhava)) and each arising because of its > own separate set of conditions. > > The fact that the 2 phenomena that you mention as 'polar aspects' are > to an extent mutually dependent for that precise moment does not > detract from the fact that they are discrete and that they arise due > to wholly different conditions. The 'unity' created is not a unity > in the absolute/ultimate/fundamental sense of having its own > individual essence or characteristic (sabhava). > > Also, apart from the 2 you mention, there are other phenomena playing > equally crucial roles in this event (eye-base for one). > > (Btw, the mutual dependence spoken of here is mutual dependence as > object of experience at that moment, not in the sense of arising in > the world.) > > < taking that aspect of the event and making an agent out of it. When > we reify the objective pole, we are "selfing: in the sense of making > a "thing" out of the objective pole.>> > > Yes, to reify anything must, by definition, involve a concept of > self. However, directly experiencing the true nature of a > fundamental phenomenon, in this case either the seeing consciousness > or the visible object, is not a reification nor does it involve a > concept of self. > > As Victor has I think been pointing out in his unique way, the line > between true awareness and what you refer to as reification is a fine > one. So while satipatthana at moments of seeing involves the direct > experience of seeing consciousness or visible object, this is to be > distinguished from *attempting to see the moment of seeing as being > the separate phenomena of seeing consciousness and visible object*. > That would be an instance of reifying things, involving ideas of > self. > > My reading of the texts on this aspect, anyway. > > Jon > 19411 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ways of attainment (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Swee Boon --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > Thank you for pointing that out. But what's the difference between > the second and the fourth case? Good question. From a quick look, I would say that the fourth case makes no reference to the development of samatha (tranquillity). (The sutta reference you give below makes direct reference to tranquillity, and seems to be not the same as the fourth case in the other sutta.) Jon > An elaboration of the fourth case is found in: > > Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) > Pansadhovaka Sutta * > The Dirt-washer > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-100-1.html 19412 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Susima Sutta 2 (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Swee Boon --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > Am I correct to say that samatha is not necessary for the > development of insight, but it is necessary for the attainment of > enlightenment. To my understanding, enlightenment is the outcome of the development of insight. That is to say, when insight (into the true nature of presently arising phenomena) has been developed to a sufficient degree, enlightenment follows as a matter of course. If this is so, then the conditions for the attainment of enlightenment must be no different from the conditions for the development of insight. Here are a couple of sutta references: Conditions necessary for the development of insight: AN IV, 246 (Trans: NDB 91) The Growth of Wisdom "These four things, O monks, are conducive to the growth of wisdom. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the good Dhamma, proper attention and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things are conducive to the growth of wisdom." Conditions necessary for the attainment of enlightenment: SN LV, 5 Sotapattisamyutta (Trans: CDB 55.05) "Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry." Jon 19413 From: bodhi342 Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 7:53am Subject: Re: Dukkha as Medicine?Upanisa sutta. Dear Nina, This is just an interim progress report, to explain my delay in responding to your illuminating message. I have been reading and trying to understand the Upanisa Sutta reference you provided. It is a treasure of understanding the human condition, even though I perceive that I get only a glimpse of its value. The going has been slow because there is involved a process of testing new information against the old data banks - however much I try to avoid such comparison. The language of the commentary is also quite dense and packed with inference that I would not want to miss. I have to read and reread. I realize now how narrow my perception of dukkha as stimulus or medicine was. It is the necessary condition for the development of faith, but these are just the transition points in the whole series comprising the mundane and transcendental orders. The whole concept of dependant arising however appeals, as my mind has been trained to understand science, history etc. in the form of sequence. This sutta is like an architectural drawing of the whole scheme - the most efficient way that my own mind can grasp matters. Thank you for prescribing exactly what this patient needed to better understand the Dhamma! Will get back with more details, if and once, I am able to formulate the message more coherently. with metta and respect, dharam 19414 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dukkha as Medicine?Upanisa sutta. Dear Dharam and Nina, I agree with Dharam that "This sutta is like an architectural drawing of the whole scheme - the most efficient way that my own mind can grasp matters. Thank you for prescribing exactly what this patient needed to better understand the Dhamma!" In my opinion this sutta is also a refutation of the idea that 'the Buddha never taught abhidhamma'. This is, I think, an excellent (though by no means unique) example of abhidhamma in the suttapitaka. mike 19415 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 8:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] how to trim Emails Dear Venerable, I am sending you a message off-line for this. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu [mailto:sanz@n...] > Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 11:11 PM > To: Dhamma Study Group > Subject: [dsg] how to trim Emails > > > Dear Kom, Could you or somebody teach me how to 19416 From: nidive Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 9:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Susima Sutta 2 (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Hi Jon, > To my understanding, enlightenment is the outcome of the development of > insight. That is to say, when insight (into the true nature of presently > arising phenomena) has been developed to a sufficient degree, > enlightenment follows as a matter of course. > If this is so, then the conditions for the attainment of > enlightenment must be no different from the conditions for the > development of insight. I am wondering whether by "samatha" or "tranquility", do you interpret it as "jhana/absorption concentration"? The reason why I say that "tranquility" is needed is because concentration is always needed at the time magga/phala arise. For those of us who are unable to attain jhana concentration or access concentration, this will be momentary concentration. I quote from "A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation" by Venerable Henepola Gunaratana. ... the Maha Tika again identifies momentary concentration with the type of concentration appropriate to one whose vehicle is insight: ... ... supramundane concentration and insight are impossible without mundane concentration and insight to precede them; for without the access and absorption concentration in one whose vehicle is serenity, or without the momentary concentration in one whose vehicle is insight, and without the Gateways to Liberation..., the supramundane can never in either case be reached. Whichever vehicle one uses, concentration (or rather tranquility) is always needed at the time of magga/phala. This is very evident in various suttas, such as: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html And I identify momentary concentration with these two types of concentration described in Anguttara Nikaya IV.41. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html I find that identifying these two types of concentration with momentary concentration is not in contradiction with what the late Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw taught. I quote from Venerable Henepola again: A concise description of the way momentary concentration arises is presented by the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw. The Sayadaw explains that a meditator begins the development of insight by attending to the diverse mental and bodily processes that become manifest to him, making the tactile process of the rising and falling of the abdomen his basic object of mindfulness. At first, during the early part of his practice, his mind tends to be distracted by wandering thoughts, but with time his thought-process of noticing becomes well concentrated. When he can notice the objects that appear continuously, undisturbed by hindrances, his practice has arrived at momentary concentration: While thus practising the exercise of noticing with "unhindered mind', the noticing mind will get more close to and fixed at whichever object is noticed, and the act of noticing will proceed without break. At that time there arises in him, in uninterrupted succession, 'the concentration of mind lasting for a moment', directed to each object noticed. The Sayadaw holds that this momentary concentration claims the place of purification of mind in the dry insight-worker's course of development. He states that though it "has only momentary duration, its power of resistance to being overwhelmed by opposition corresponds to that of access concentration." And in reference to "the concentration of mind lasting for a moment", I quote from Venerable Henepola once again: The importance of momentary concentration in the vehicle of insight is testified to both by the classical Theravada exegetical literature and by modern exponents of the "dry vipassana" approach. The Visuddhimagga, in its discussion of mindfulness of breathing, states that "at the actual time of insight, momentary unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the characteristics (of impermanence, and so on)." Its commentary, the Paramatthamanjusa, defines the phrase "momentary unification of the mind" as concentration lasting only for a moment, stating: "For that too, when it occurs uninterruptedly on its object in a single mode and is not overcome by opposition, fixes the mind immovably, as if in absorption." And in reference to my post on "Right Concentration" in ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19385 It can be deduced that the sixty arahants who have the threefold knowledge and the sixty arahants who have sixfold supernormal knowledge must have practiced all four forms of concentration described in Anguttara Nikaya IV.41. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html The sixty arahants who are emancipated in both ways would have practised only three forms of concentration with the exception of the second one. And the rest of the arahants emancipated by insight alone would have practised only the last two forms of concentration (which I had identified as momentary concentration). In brief, I am saying that for magga/phala to arise, concentration (or tranquility) is always needed. It need not be jhana/absorption concentration or access concentration. But if our vehicle is by insight and without jhanas, at least momentary concentration is necessary. Indeed, the Buddha admitted that there are various degrees of concentration when he said: 13. Then the Blessed One said: "There are eight reasons, Ananda, eight causes for a mighty earthquake to arise. What are those eight? ... 15. "Again, Ananda, when an ascetic or holy man of great power, one who has gained mastery of his mind, or a deity who is mighty and potent, develops INTENSE CONCENTRATION on the delimited aspect of the earth element, and to a boundless degree on the liquid element, he, too, causes the earth to tremble, quiver, and shake. This is the second reason, the second cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html And I identify momentary concentration as part of Right Concentration in one whose vehicle is by insight. If one does not practice jhana/absorption or access concentration, at least one must practice momentary concentration. This is the minimum to fulfill the Noble Eight-fold Path factor of Right Concentration. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19417 From: Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 4:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/4/03 6:25:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > You said: > event is a seeing-seen unity ...>> > To my understanding, to regard the act of seeing as a single bi-polar > event would be the so-called conventional view. What the Buddha's > > teachings disclose, that would not otherwise be apparent to us, is > that these apparently single unified events in reality comprise > different and discrete phenomena (each having its own individual > characteristic or essence (sabhava)) and each arising because of its > own separate set of conditions. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: This will bring a smile to your face, Jon - I completely disagree. They are not separate and discrete phenomena somehow related. They are interdependent. There is no seeing without the seen, and there is no seen without the seeing. ------------------------------------------------- > > The fact that the 2 phenomena that you mention as 'polar aspects' are > to an extent mutually dependent for that precise moment does not > detract from the fact that they are discrete and that they arise due > to wholly different conditions. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: They only "exist" at that moment, and one does not arise without the other. --------------------------------------------------- The 'unity' created is not a unity> > in the absolute/ultimate/fundamental sense of having its own > individual essence or characteristic (sabhava). > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Their mutual dependence is part of what makes each of them empty. You wrote that "To my understanding, to regard the act of seeing as a single bi-polar event would be the so-called conventional view." I again disagree. The conventional view sees a self-existent observer and a separate self-existing observed object, two separate and discrete entities. =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19418 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 10:14am Subject: Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation, no. 3 Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation, no. 3 Thus, there are six groups of rúpa which originate from citta and these groups are different. When there is ordinary bodily movement without the intention to convey a meaning, bodily intimation does not arise. In that case the undecad of lightness, lahutå, arises, a group of eleven rúpas, but not the nonad of bodily intimation, kåya-viññatti, a group of nine rúpas, or the dodecad of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti, and lightness, a group of twelve rúpas. We should investigate the truth of realities in daily life. Sometimes citta arises that wishes to convey a meaning and sometimes citta arises that does not want to convey a meaning at all. Thus, the rúpas that originate from different cittas must also be diverse. There are four groups of rúpa originating from temperature, utu: 1. The pure octad, suddhatthaka kalåpa, a group of eight rúpas consisting of only the eight inseparable rúpas (avinibbhoga rúpas). This group arises for the first time in living beings at the moment of presence of the rebirth-consciousness and from then on it arises at each moment of presence of the rúpa which is temperature [7]. 2. The sound nonad, a group of nine rúpas: the eight inseparable rúpas and sound. This is sound which does not originate from citta. It can arise with rúpas which are dead matter and with rúpas of the body. 3. The undecad of lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahutå, plasticity, mudutå, and wieldiness, kammaññatå. These three rúpas can be the condition for bodily movement when citta intends to cause such movement [8]. 4.The dodecad of sound and lightness, a group consisting of twelve rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas and sound. These rúpas are produced by temperature when sound arises together with these vikåra rúpas [9] . There are two groups of rupas originating from nutrition: 1. The pure octad, consisting of only the eight inseparable rúpas. 2. The undecad with lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas. Apart from the factors of citta and temperature, the three vikåra rúpas can originate also from the factor of nutrition. If there are only vikåra rúpas originating from temperature but nutrition is lacking, the vikåra rúpas do not have enough strength to condition supple and fast movement of the body. Footnotes 7. There are three infinitesimally short moments of citta: its arising moment, the moment of its presence and the moment of its falling away. Kamma produces in a living being rúpa from the moment the rebirth-consciousness arises; it produces rúpa at all three moments of citta: at its arising moment, at the moment of its presence and at the moment of its falling away. At the moment of presence (tiììhi khaùa) of the rebirth-consciousness, utu, that is the element of heat, produced by kamma at the arising moment of the rebirth-consciousness, can in its turn produce new rúpas. Rúpa such as heat or nutrition cannot at their arising moment produce other rúpas, because they are too weak. Heat and nutrition can, during the moments of their presence, produce other rúpas and they do so throughout life. 8. Even if citta intends to produce rúpa in order to move the limbs, it cannot do so if there are not also vikåra rúpas conditioned by the right temperature. The three factors of citta, temperature and nutrition each produce groups of rúpa that include the vikåra rúpas. These three groups support one another. See ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas², Appendix to Rúpa, by Acharn Suijn. 9. When there is sound by snapping the fingers or applauding, vikåra rúpas arise together with sound. See Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Appendix to Rúpa. 19419 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] calm and concentration Hi Swee Boon, Christine and all, Thank you, Christine for posting Susima sutta with B.B's notes. op 02-02-2003 17:20 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > As to the >> fourth factor, he has abandoned the ten defilements of vipassana. >> He does not cling to samatha nor to vipassana. > > I am particularly unsure as to what is meant by the fourth factor. I > think this is the pure insight vehicle whereby samatha is > automatically issued when insight is completed. Would you please > elaborate on it? N: Meanwhile you read more archives posts and Jon also added and will add more remarks. In Bgk recently it was explained: sukkha vipassaka. May be aslo my translated Dhamma Issue 2, on Fruition attainment can shed some light on the matter. In the Co: also arahats can be sukkha vipassaka. Naturally, when insight is being developed there is also calm, samadhi, of the eightfold Path. But what is the Path: it exists in a moment. Like yogavacara, it is the citta that develops. One moment of awareness and then there is also calm, next moment ugly akusala, but this also should be known. All nama and rupa that naturally appear should be known as they are. I was reminded: no selection of the object of mindfulness. We should not think, Oh no it is so ugly, not fit for awareness. You quote my post: Then, when we read about jhanas, we will understand all these >> passages in their right perspective. No more doubts whether all >> of us should develop jhana. N: The end of my post is not clear, one could read it in two ways. I meant: no doubt, jhana is not necessary. Anyway: who can? Who has the real jhana. not something he erroneaously takes for jhana? > S: Does that mean jhana is a requisite for Sotapanna Enlightenment? I > have read about jhana concentration, access concentration and > momentary concentration. I think Sotapanna Enlightenment (First > Path) requires merely momentary concentration. N: No, jhana is not a requisite for enlightenment. At the moment of enlightenment samadhi is so strong because of the object: nibbana. It can be compared to, is of the strength of, appana samadhi, attainment concentration. I had conditions to reflect on calm that accompanies each kusala citta. And also on concentration. I thought of studying the teachings, reflecting on difficult points. It can only be done by kusala with calm and concentration, and here I am not thinking at all of jhana. I was considering how this is again another point we learn from the teachings, that can be verified in daily life. We can see that calm that is kusala is opposed to excitement, unrest, aversion, which makes it impossible to really consider the Dhamma. All akusala is accompanied by ignorance that covers up the truth. When we consider kusala citta with calm, a fine discrimination is necessary to detect attachment we may take for calm. Attachment comes in disguise. As Kom recently said, attachment is so subtle. I want to tell Christine:we learn from the teachings about calm (passaddhi, a constructive minister!) that is kusala, a quality accompanying kusala citta. At this moment we can verify what we learn in daily life. Even this one point causes us to have more confidence in the Buddha's teachings. I remember a passage from the series on patience: With Pukkusati we can say: the Buddha is my teacher. Now it is very natural that doubt arises at times, because only the sotapanna has eradicated it. We should not be surprised by any kind of akusala. But, akusala can and should be object of awareness, it is conditioned. Nina. 19420 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 10:14am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, patience, no. 22 Perfections, Ch 7, patience, no. 22 The Commentary to this Sutta, the ³Sumangalavilåsiní² explains as to the First Stanza, the first verse: ³khantí paramam tapo titikkhå, patience, restraint, is the highest ascetism², that khanti is adhivåsana-khanti. Khanti is a condition for the development of all kusala, whereas impatience conditions the arising of all evil through citta, and then through the body and through speech. Adhivåsana-khanti is restraint with regard to all situations in daily life, to our environment, and this is the highest ascetism. The Commentary explains: ³The words Œnibbånam paramam vadanti Buddhå, nibbåna is supreme, the Buddhas say¹, mean that all Buddhas say that nibbåna is the supreme dhamma in all respects.² There is no other dhamma which is superior to nibbåna, because the other dhammas arise because of conditions, they are present for just a very short moment and then they fall away completely. Nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma arise because of the appropriate conditions just for a moment and then fall away. How then can conditioned dhammas be a refuge? The Buddha said that nibbåna is the supreme dhamma, it is the dhamma through which defilements are eradicated completely, so that they never arise again. We read: ³As to the words, Œna hi pabbajito parúpaghåti, he, verily, is not a recluse who harms another¹, this means that a person who harms, afflicts and injures someone else because he lacks adhivåsana khanti, endurance, cannot be called a recluse. As to the word Œpårúpaghåti, he harms¹, this means that he violates síla, because síla is called paramam, meaning, supreme. It is explained that an ascetic who is vexing another being, who is someone who harms another, ruins his own síla. This means that he cannot be called a recluse.² When someone is a monk who has to observe síla transgresses síla, when he ruins his own síla, he cannot be considered as a monk. As regards a lay person, when he applies the teachings, his defilements can be eradicated. He should consider precisely, in all details, his action and speech, he should know whether they affect or harm someone else. Even if he does not utter harsh speech he should know whether he hurts the citta of someone else. He should have a refined discrimination of his action and speech. We read further on in the Commentary: A person harms someone else because he has no endurance, adhivåsana khanti. If he kills other beings, even gadflies and mosquitos, he cannot be considered as a recluse.What is the reason? Because he cannot get rid of impurity. Someone is considered as a recluse (pabbajita) because he has got rid of impurities in himself. This is the characteristic of a recluse. 19421 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 10:14am Subject: different types of translations. On yahoo an interesting point was raised, and I frwd my post: op 03-02-2003 15:10 schreef Piya Tan op libris@s...: So it would be great if we get > more critiques and ideas from people. Dear Piya Tan, I shall go to this site, but meanwhile just a few remarks. I think guiding principles will influence one's translation. Some take as principle the litterary aspect and consider by style and idiom what is ancient and what is from later time. They are not inclined to the Abhidhamma nor to the commentaries. Whereas others find that in order to understand the meaning of the texts it is necessary to consider the whole Tipitaka: Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma, as well as the commentaries which are based on the Theravada tradition. Thus, a sutta could be considered in a much wider context and one could carefully compare different texts. An example is the Raahulovaada sutta. The Co mentions that for the understanding of what the Buddha said to Rahula about rupa, one should go to the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint and the Vis. Khandha Niddesa. Here is explained what is included in rupakkhandha: all physical phenomena, inside the body or outside. This will influence one's transl of the word rupa: it is part of rupakkhandha. It could be translated as matter or materiality. Matter may be a loaded term, associated with science, and thus there are always many problems to find the right word. When rupa is translated as form I do not mind it, because I know the Pali term and its meaning. Actually, form could imply: what can be seen, thus, ruupaaramma.na, visible object. This is only one of the many rupas contained in rupakkhandha, but all rupas are implied in rupakkhandha. Now this is an example how translation can be influenced by one's ideas about the sources. Further on in the Sutta I shall come across another example, but I shall wait until we are there. Different translations can also influence one's practice: is jhana necessary to attain enlightenment or not? On dsg list we discussed the Susima sutta with different transl: one by AtI and one by Ven. Bodhi. Ven. Bodhi gave notes of the commentary which made it clear that enlightenment can be attained without first cultivating jhana, whereas ATI added a personal note that it is necessary. Hereby I do not imply that one should be guided by only one sutta. We see that inclinations to different kinds of practice influences people's translations. When people read the Satipatthana sutta or the Anapanasati sutta with or without the commentaries, this will also make a great difference: they may also reach diverse conclusions as to the practice. This certainly will influence their translations. Here are just some random thoughts I have, Nina. 19422 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 10:14am Subject: Mahaaraahulovaadasutta Commentary 3. Sarah, I read Ja 16, it is wonderful. A correction, I misspelled something: lucky is bhadda (I had baddha, which is wrong). Mahaaraahulovaadasutta Commentary 3. Sutta passage: Atha kho aayasmaa Raahulo "Ko najja Bhagavataa sammukhaa ovaadena ovadito gaama.m pi.n.daaya pavisissatii"ti tato pa.tinivattitvaa a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisiidi palla'nka.m aabhujitvaa uju.m kaaya.m pa.nidhaaya parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa. Then the venerable Rahula thought, "Who indeed [nu from n'ajja], after being personally exhorted by the Blessed One himself today, would go into the village for alms?" Turning back, he sat down at the foot of a certain tree, crossed his legs and, keeping his body upright, established mindfulness before him. Commentary: We read that the Buddha placed Rahula foremost (agge) among his disciples who are monks eager for training (Ang I, 24). Rahula uttered his "Lion's roar" in the midst of the Order of monks, saying that he was the foremost in being eager to follow the training. We then read: Then this venerable person, after he had given up the task of (receiving) almsfood, and after he had left the sitting place where he had received the exhortation turning back he sat down at the foot of a certain tree.> ***** Nina. 19423 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 2:27pm Subject: Re: Right Concentration -- Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for your clear analysis here. It is a sticking point for many. As Nina said recently we have to know the context on suttas - often the Buddha was speaking to monks who were samathayanika or who he knes had the abilities to be samathayanika. These were masters of jhana, they could attain different jhanas readily and so jhana was daily life for them, then the jhana could be basis for insight in that insight could distinguish nama from rupa immediately upon leaving jhana. We should know ourselves, I believe: what dhammas are most daily now. For me there is seeing, hearing, tasting, desire, aversion, feelings, etc; these are the ones that arise in the present and that there can be 'careful investigation' of. I add some quotes Majjhima Nikaaya I. 1. 8. Sallekhasutta.m (8) Purity . Cunda, it may happen, that a bhikkhu secluded from sensual desires, secluded from evil thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes, with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion, would abide in the first jhaana . Then it would occur to him, I abide in purity. Cunda, in the dispensation of the noble ones that is not purity, It is called a pleasant abiding here and now. ........Cunda, it may happen that a bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of consciousness, with there is nothing attained to abides in the sphere of no-thingness. It might occur to him I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, it may happen that a bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of nothingness, would attain and abide in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. It might occur to him, I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, purifying should be done thus: Others will be hurters, we will be non-hurters. Others will be destroyers of life, we will not destroy life. Others will talk frivolously, we will abstain from frivolous talk. Others will be coveting, we will abstain from coveting. Others will be with an angry mind, we will not be angry. Others will be with wrong view, we will be with right view. Others will speak wrong words, we will speak right words. Others will be with wrong actions, we will be with right actions. Others will be with wrong livelihood, we will be with right livelihood. Others will be with wrong effort, we will be with right effort. Others will be with wrong mindfulness, we will be with right mindfulness. Others will be with wrong concentration, we will be with right concentration. Others will be with wrong knowledge, we will be with right knowledge. Others will be released wrong, we will be rightfully released. .. Others will have evil friends, we will have good friends. Others will be negligent, we will be diligent. Others will be without faith, we will be with faith. .. Others will be not wise, we will be wise. Others will hold to views tenaciously, we will give up views quite easily. Cunda, purifying should be done in this manner. . http://www.abhidhamma.org/sallekkha%20sutta.htm Visuddhimagga XV11267 explains that even such pure conduct and practice, including the development of jhana that leads to the deva world and highest brahma world can still be silabbataparamasa : "So silabataparamsa is a condition for all three namely the sense- desire, fine-material (rupa-brahma)and immaterial kinds of becoming(arupa Brahma". The development of samatha is profound and difficult but that of vipassana is more profound. If one genuinely believes they have the accumulations to master jhana then great, but not all of us do, it is good to understand this moment as it really is right now, not try to change it to what we wish it to be. RobertK - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi All, > > From what I have read from the Suttas from ATI, it has always given > me the impression that Right Concentration means purely the > attainment of the jhanas. Nevertheless, "deep down in my heart", I > know that this is wrong, but I could not justify it in concrete > ways. The suggestion by Thanissaro Bhikkhu that the monks mentioned > in the Susima Sutta had attained at least the first jhana does no > help at all. > > Today is a public holiday and I spent the afternoon reading through > the "Useful Posts" on this subject. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > Gradual Sayings (II, Book of the Fours, Ch IX, § 7, Kinds of > Recluses) > > Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What > four? The unshaken recluse, the blue-lotus recluse, the white-lotus > recluse, and the recluse who is exquisite among recluses. > > And how, monks, is one an unshaken recluse? Herein, monks, a monk is > a pupil, one who has entered the way; he dwells aspiring for the > unsurpassed rest of the toil... > > And how, monks, is a person a blue-lotus recluse? Herein, a monk, by > destroying the asavas, has reached the heart¹s release, the release > by wisdom that is free from the asavas, and having realized it > abides therein. Yet does he not abide experiencing with his own > person the eight deliverances... > > And how, monks, is a person a white-lotus recluse? Herein, a monk, > by destroying the asavas...abides therein, and abides experiencing > with his own person the eight deliverances... > > And how, monks, is a person a recluse exquisite among recluses? > Herein a monk when invited enjoys a plentiful supply of robes... Now > monks, if rightly speaking one would speak about the recluse > exquisite among recluses, it is just of me (the Buddha) that he > would rightly use the words... > > (Nina: The eight deliverances, vimokkha, see Buddhist dictionary > (Nyanatiloka) includes both rupa-jhana and arupa-jhana.) > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > The above Sutta posted by Nina was very helpful. It shows that > Arahantship can be attained without any (mundane) jhana attainment. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > We read in the Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation, > that with the Buddha were 500 monks who were arahats. > > The Buddha said to Sariputta: "There is nothing, Sariputta, for > which I blame these five > hundred Monks, in deed or word. Of these monks, sixty have the > threefold knowledge, sixty have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty > are emancipated in both ways, and then others are emancipated by > insight (alone)." > > ("Emancipated in both ways" can be understood with reference to > Anguttara Nikaya IX.45.) > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-045.html > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > The above Sutta posted by Nina was also very helpful. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 > Samadhi Sutta > > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which > four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed > & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is > the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads > to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of > concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of > the effluents. > > Number 1: "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? > There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, > withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first > jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by > directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought > & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & > pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from > directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading > of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically > sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of > which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a > pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as > with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & > remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, > neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration > that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the > here & now. > > (RobertK: This is the mundane jhanas, the pleasant abiding here and > now. They are right concentration but are only right concentration > of the eightfold path when they are used as the basis for insight by > those who take that path.) > > Number 2: "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? > There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light > and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the > day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. > By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened > mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed > & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. > > (RobertK: This is a special type of mundane jhana that gives one > certain powers; "knowledge and vision" here is not of the type that > is part of the eightfold path.) > > Number 3: "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the > case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as > they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as > they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts > are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they > subside. This is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. > > Number 4: "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is > the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with > reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is > form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, > such their origination, such their passing away. Such is > consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This > is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the ending of the effluents. > > "These are the four developments of concentration." > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > The above Sutta posted by RobertK was very useful. I have always > ignored this Sutta because whenever I read Number 2, I always feel > bewildered. Now I understand it as the development of abhinna powers > approved by the Buddha. All four types of concentration are > practiced by the Buddha. But Number 3 and 4 are the really useful > types of concentration that will lead to Unbinding and they do not > need any jhana attainments. > > I agree with RobertK when he says "They are right concentration but > are only right concentration of the eightfold path when they are > used as the basis for insight by those who take that path.". Indeed, > even if the mundane jhana was attained but there is no insight as to > the five aggregates present in that mundane jhana, what's the point? > It cannot be right concentration if there is no insight into the > five aggregates associated with that mundane jhana. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > In response to the Susima Sutta, Nina said: > > The question, atikamma ruupe aaruppaa te kayena phusitva ... > transcending rupajjhana and remaining in arupajjhana, (kaya is here > mental body, citta and cetasika) one could interprete it in > different ways: have you attained arupajhana after having attained > rupajjhana: have you both jhanas, no is the answer. What does it > mean? We have neither, or, we have rupajhana but not arupajhana, and > the latter possibility Ven. Thanissaro finds plausible. Then we > should read the whole sutta and commentary, and draw our conclusion. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > Indeed, we should draw our own conclusion. My conclusion is that > Susima intended to ask the Arahants if they had attained both rupa > and arupa jhanas. Whenever I read the Buddha's teachings about the > jhanas, he always start from the first jhana. I don't think that I > had read any sutta where the Buddha teaches about jhana and he only > talks about arupa jhanas without mentioning the rupa jhanas. There > is every reason to believe that Susima intended to ask the Arahants > if they had attained both rupa and arupa jhanas. He could be just as > perplexed as me as to whether jhana and abhinna attainments are > necessary for Unbinding. Afterall, he listened to the same Dhamma > discourses delivered by the Buddha as I am reading now. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of > kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. > Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his > disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. > Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. > Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into > regret. This is our message to you." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-145.html > > (RobertK explained the meaning of jhana in the context of this > Sutta.) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11524 > > Indeed, the Buddha could not have meant merely the attainment of > mundane jhana when he said "Practice jhana". More likely than not, > he was telling them to practice concentration type Number 4 that > leads to Unbinding. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > Nina: What people tend to forget: pa~n~naa is a necessary factor for > the development of samatha to the degree of jhana. If one thinks > that samatha is a base for vipassana: one tends to forget that one > has to be highly skilful in jhana, and acquire the masteries > (vassis): entering jhana whenever one wishes, changing the stages > whenever one wishes, emerging whenever one wishes (see > Visuddhimagga). Moreover, the Vis also explains that very few people > can attain even access concentration, and the stages of jhana. Vis. > XII, 8: > the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or thousand can do > it. To extend the sign and reach absorption is difficult for one who > has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or thousand > can do it....> > It is important to take note of this warning. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > This "warning" was very useful. > > > There are some other posts by Jonothan Abbott which were useful as > well. Example: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3539 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/7821 > > > I think this Dhamma Study Group is very blessed to have such well- > learned masters of the Dhamma in Nina, RobertK and Jonothan Abbott. > I appreciate all of your explanations. > > On a personal note, I feel that Thanissaro Bhikkhu, by emphasizing > on the jhanas in his translation and notes, is making the > realization of Magga very unreachable for the common worldling. In > contrast, I felt full of hope when I read in ADL Chapter 24: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > Some people think that enlightenment could not occur in daily life, > they believe that it is necessary to be in a solitary place in order > to attain nibbåna. The development of vipassanå is the development > of right understanding of all realities occurring in daily life. > When paññå has been developed to the degree that enlightenment can > be attained, enlightenment can occur in the middle of one's daily > activities. As we have seen, the attainment of enlightenment is only > a few moments of citta which arise and fall away within split > seconds. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19424 From: Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 3:37pm Subject: Way 46, Comm, Deportment "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Modes of Deportment, p. 58 Yatha yatha va panassa kayo panihito hoti tatha tatha nam pajanati = "Or just as his body is disposed so he understands it." Iti ajjhattam va = "Thus internally." In this way the bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, examining his own four modes of deportment. Bahiddha va = "Or externally." Or examining the four modes of deportment of another. Ajjhatta-bahiddha va = "Or internally and externally." Or examining at one time his own four modes of deportment and at another time another's four modes of deportment, he lives. Samudaya-dhammanupassi = "Contemplating origination-things." Also dissolution-things are included here. Origination and dissolution should be dwelt upon by way of the fivefold method beginning with the words: "He, thinking 'the origination of materiality comes to be through the origination of ignorance,' in the sense of the origin of conditions, sees the arising of the aggregate of materiality." [Tika] In the same way he sees the arising of the aggregate of materiality through the origination of craving, karma and food, in the sense of the origin of conditions, and also while seeing the sign of birth [nibbatti lakkhana passanto pi]. He sees the passing away of the aggregate while thinking that the dissolution of materiality comes to be through the dissolution of ignorance, in the sense of the dissolution of conditions, and through the dissolution of craving, karma and food, in the same way, and while seeing the sign of vicissitude [viparinamalakkhana]. [T] For the arising of the materiality-aggregate ignorance, craving, karma and food are the principal reasons. But these are not all. As it is said that one sees the arising of the materiality-aggregate when beholding also the rebirth-sign or the bare origination state called the integration-succession [upacaya santati] of the various material forms [rupa] becoming manifest in the conscious flux [saviññanaka santana], owing to ignorance, craving, karma, and nutriment, and from consciousness [citta] and the process of caloricity [utu], the knowledge of arising is fivefold. [T] Similarly the knowledge of passing away or ceasing is fivefold. The sign of vicissitude or change is the bare state of dissolution [bhanga sabhava] called impermanency [aniccata]. Atthi kayoti va panassa, sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists'." The exposition of this is to be done in the manner already stated in the preceding section. Here, the mindfulness which examines the four modes of deportment is the Truth of Suffering. The pre-craving which brings about that mindfulness is the Truth of Origination. The non-occurrence of either is the Truth of Cessation. The Real Path which understands suffering, abandons origination, and takes cessation as object, is the Truth of the Way. The yogi having endeavored thus by way of the Four Truths, arrives at peace. This is the portal to emancipation up to arahantship of the bhikkhu occupied with the four modes of deportment. 19425 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 11:07pm Subject: RE: [dsg] To Christine Dear Neo Swee Boon, Christine, James, and others, > Doubt cannot be cured by speculating about > matters which do not lead > to the goal; it can only be cured by being aware > of the nama and > rupa which present themselves now. Even when > there is doubt it can > be realized as only a type of nama arising > because of conditions and > not self. Thus the reality of the present moment > will be known more > clearly. > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid7.html > > Let me echo my deep appreciation for this post (Excellent!). One thing that we can remember about the buddha is that he's the expositor of truths, and one who knows all the worlds. By understanding doubt as it is, we can begin to appreciate who the Buddha really was, what he taught, and what one must know to become englightened. The Buddha's dhamma is truly beautiful, unlike all other teachings, as it is ultimately undeniable (because it has its own characterisitics) and unchangeable. The ultimate proof of the Buddha's teachings is right in front of our nose, at every moment. kom 19426 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 11:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: subject and object Hello Howard, Don't let me interrupt this interesting discussion but I'd like to get the issues clear in my mind. Jon made a couple of points which I thought were important and I'd like to know whether you accept his reasonings and, if not, what your reasonings are. Sorry in advance, if I have misread things. A point you originally made was: ----------- >>> A subject-object experiential event, for example an act of seeing, is, to my mind a single event with two polar aspects ... The entire event is a seeing-seen unity ...>>> ----------- to which Jon replied, in part; --------------- >> The fact that the 2 phenomena that you mention as 'polar aspects' are to an extent mutually dependent for that precise moment does not detract from the fact that they are discrete and that they arise due to wholly different conditions. >> -------------- That they have `wholly different conditions' is something that hadn't particularly occurred to me until now. Jon added; "Btw, the mutual dependence spoken of here is mutual dependence as object of experience at that moment, not in the sense of arising in the world." (end quote) I'm not sure if you took these points into account when you replied: ------------------------------------------------- > They only "exist" at that moment, and one does not arise without the other. > --------------------------------------------------- I don't see why the co-arising of two phenomena should make them essentially one. May I ask you, do you agree that each of the two is dependent on wholly different conditions? The other point Jon made, that I would like to get your opinion on, was: ---------- >> The 'unity' created is not a unity in the absolute/ultimate/fundamental sense of having its own individual essence or characteristic (sabhava). >> ---------------------------------------------------- Your reply was: -------------- > Their mutual dependence is part of what makes each of them empty. > ------------------ Are we to infer that you take a different view of the teaching of sabhava? Do you regard the terms,`emptiness' and `essence,' as being mutually exclusive? Sorry to keep harping on about this -- I think I have asked you the same question before -- but it's a lot easier to follow a discussion if one knows what the participants are accepting as common ground. Kind regards, Ken H 19427 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 1:44am Subject: more on appreciation and anumodhana Hi Kom, Swee Boon, Christine, Nina, Mike, Ray and All, Kom:> Let me echo my deep appreciation for this post (Excellent!)<< > ....The ultimate proof of the Buddha's teachings > is right in front of our nose, at every moment.<< ..... I also wished to appreciate some of Swee Boon’s recent posts on ‘doubt’ (with useful citations)and I also found his summary of suttas on concentration and nibbana very helpful. I fished out Christine’s ‘unanswered’ lemmings post, written in her usual witty style;-): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12668.html ..... Chris: “One has to know a little of the Ultimate Goal - else how would one know that it is 'safe' to aim for? One wonders about Lemmings ... what are they thinking as they rush towards the edge of the cliff? Is the one out in front shouting: "Don't ask questions, chaps, there are no words to describe what's going to happen to us, only put all your energy into getting there. We're never going to agree, so cut the chatter. Just keep running." :)” ..... I would say, ask lots of questions and add lots of wise reflection. Check what’s in front of your nose very carefully.....if it’s ‘doubt’, so be it. No reality is any more worthy of being known than another. Follow the path of detachment instead of running blindly or rushing to any cliff edge. When there is wise reflection with sati(awareness) and yoniso manasikara (wise attention) as taught to young Rahula, there is no concern about any Ultimate Goal. One step at a time. Kom wrote before in a post picked up by Nina: “We may not be able to find out for ourselves if the path that we are on leads to enlightenment or nibbana or not, but we can know, little by little, if we begin to understand more about nama and rupa, and if this leads to more attachment.” ..... Kom, I also appreciate all your reminders on anumodhana (appreciation of others’ good deeds). When we express this intention, I believe it’s similar to the expression of mudita (sympathetic joy), when we rejoice in another’s good fortune. I have always learnt a lot about both these qualities from my Thai and Sri lankan friends or those who have lived in these countries. You wrote: “In Thailand there's a tradition, when someone explains the Buddha's teachings / repeats the Buddha's teachings, we can rejoice in the person's good deed [have you even run into those who said Sathu after a sermon, for example?]. However, if we happen to be forgetful and don't rejoice after seeing such deed, when we hear other people's anumoddhana, we can then remember to also anumoddhana for the person's good deed.” ..... Betty and you also wrote very helpful reminders on this quality before http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12887 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12884 In “Perfections Ch 7, Patience, no 19”, we also read more about avarice or stinginess with regard to dwelling, family, gain, praise and finally to the Dhamma as well, if a person doesn’t wish to explain the theory to someone else. These reminders of machariya (avarice or stinginess) were useful for me to reflect on. Perhaps I hadn’t considered the connection between impatience and avarice. Or we may only think of stinginess with regard to material possessions but not with regard to praise and gain or explaining dhamma. When there is this qualitiy present there cannot be any mudita (sympathetic joy) or ‘anumodhana’ for another’s good deeds. In other words, when there is impatience and avarice, it is again the ‘self-interest’ that Q.Mallika and K.Pasenadi were referring to that are foremost in our minds. Further we read “For someone who is impatient there is much harm, because he will receive the harmful effect of his own akusala. Someone else cannot harm that person, only his own defilements are the cause of harm for him....”. ..... I believe we can test out these Teachings right now, ‘in front of our nose’. We can test out the harm from the impatience and avarice and the lightness and tranquillity which accompanies moments of mudita and gladness for another’s praise or good fortune. As Mike put so wisely: “I think most akusala is ‘perfectly natural’ and learning to see the danger in it (especially in lobha) is rather un-natural. Naturally, people like to think that their everyday pleasures and attachments are harmless, but this is not borne out by my (obviously very limited) understanding of Buddhadhamma.” ..... Mike, I don’t think you’re missing anything here at all. On the contrary, I especially appreciate the much-needed reminders from good friends such as yourself. Much of the attachment in a day may be relatively harmless, but I don’t understand that to mean there shouldn’t be a growing understanding of its nature and more and more wise reflection. Sometimes what may have seemed harmless in the past can be seen to be not so harmless with wiser reflection and sati. This doesn’t mean there should be any trying to change one’s accumulations -- that would only be an indication of more clinging to the self -- but the path of understanding and detachment knows more and more precisely what is in front of our nose and has less and less concern for what isn’t apparent as I see it. Nina wrote in another recent post in the Way corner: “It is a long way to really see ourselves as fleeting elements, but this leads to attaching less importance to *ourselves*. Is it worth clinging to what are merely elements? We find it so important how we feel in a day, but we forget that feeling is very momentary, only an element. We attach great importance to praise and blame, but we forget that these are only moments of experiencing an object.” When there is metta, karuna, mudita or upekkha, there is no ‘self-interest’. There is no concern for one’s own praise and blame or other worldly conditions. Likewise, at moments of satipatthana, there is the development of detachment from what is experienced and another step is taken on the most important path of detachment from any idea of self. Ray wrote a very helpful post (no 18143). He stressed the importance of right understanding. I particularly liked the analogy of stepping on a tack which he gave: “It is like a person walking down a sidewalk and sees a tack on the sidewalk. The person does not have to be perfect to walk around the tack, as long as the person has left behind the mistaken view that stepping on the tack is pleasurable, the person will naturally not step on the tack.” Knowing a little more about what is conducive to taking the right steps and appreciating good reminders and deeds of others can be a condition for seeing a little more clearly what is under our nose and not blindly falling off the cliff’s edge like the poor lemmings. Any comments will be welcome. Metta, Sarah ====== 19428 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi all Hi Ken H, --- "kenhowardau " wrote: > Hello all, > > ` just a short message to say I'm not really posting a message at > this stage. ..... ..And I'm not really posting a response at this stage.... .... >First, I have to catch up on a backlog of dsg emails -- > brought about by my attending to other (lesser), commitments and > computer problems. > > The quality of recent discussions has been superb even by dsg > standards; little wonder that lurkers and semi-lurkers like me are > happy just to read them. .... Always good to hear from you and for the encouragement to all the posters. Perhaps we should periodically have an "all-change" and swap places for a while;-) ..... >For various reasons, taking part doesn't > come easily but I must show the flag occasionally, if only out of > courtesy and appreciation. .... I certainly won't discourage this....just an occasional 'touch base' post from lurkers is always good to read. .... > Mike, it's great to see you back. I should learn from your first > message to NEO Swee Boon -- one word! I can do that! ..... Well, one word is a start....as Kom pointed out, a few more are even better;-) Look forward to more from the Down Under gang. I hope all those with computer problems get them fixed (Larry, hope you're getting the hang of yours....does it mean you'll be able to cope with longer messages and inserts now??) Metta, Sarah ====== 19429 From: Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Hi, Ken - Rather than reply to your post point by point, let me make a few statements that I hope will clarify the entire matter. First, recall that I approach all this as a phenomenalist. By an "existent" (for lack of a less loaded term), I mean an object of experience or the potential for such. I do not posit entities beyond experience, though, of course, I cannot rule out the existence of unknowable things. In particular, I do not see the following things, for example, as things which arise "in the world" as opposed to arising as mere objects of consciousness: Sensations of warmth and cold, hardness, softness, sights, sounds, tastes, fears, joy, intentions, etc. The things apparently "in the world" like trees, people, houses, tabletops, etc - that is, the things which actually seem to exist independent of consciousness and to which we attribute the directly apprehended hardness, and redness, and warmth etc as "characteristics" - are, in fact, mere pa~n~natti. Hardness and the knowing of hardness arise together. The only other sense in which hardness may exist is as a potential for experience, which is to say that certain conditions have already arisen guaranteeing that should certain further conditions arise, then there will also arise an experincing of hardness. There is no way that I consider hardness, per se, as a thing independent of experiencing, and existing "out there" - I see that view as a strange form of disembodied Platonism to which the ordinary, commonsense view of a truly existing world of conventional objects (trees and cars and tabletops) would be preferable. This is my way of seeing matters. I neither insist upon it nor do I wish to proselytize for it. I don't criticize others for not adopting it - I never raise that issue. It is other people who raise the issue with me. Debating this view vs alternative views of, for example, pluralistic realism, or materialism, or a variety of forms of dualism strikes me as rather fruitless. Things actually are however they are. None of us, in fact, knows what that is. Each of us, as Buddhists, adopts a position which makes the Dhamma as understandable as possible to him/her. The importance, the central theme, of the Dhamma, is dukkha and its end - all else is secondary. So long as we don't presume that our position is certainly right and all others wrong, but treat one's position merely as a tentative perspective, I think we are staying on the safe side of things. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/5/03 2:21:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hello Howard, > > Don't let me interrupt this interesting discussion but I'd like to > get the issues clear in my mind. Jon made a couple of points which I > thought were important and I'd like to know whether you accept his > reasonings and, if not, what your reasonings are. Sorry in advance, > if I have misread things. > > A point you originally made was: > ----------- > >>>A subject-object experiential event, for example an act of > seeing, is, to my mind a single event with two polar aspects ... The > entire event is a seeing-seen unity ...>>> > ----------- > > to which Jon replied, in part; > --------------- > >>The fact that the 2 phenomena that you mention as 'polar aspects' > are to an extent mutually dependent for that precise moment does not > detract from the fact that they are discrete and that they arise due > to wholly different conditions. >> > -------------- > > That they have `wholly different conditions' is something that hadn't > particularly occurred to me until now. Jon added; "Btw, the mutual > dependence spoken of here is mutual dependence as object of > experience at that moment, not in the sense of arising in the world." > (end quote) > > I'm not sure if you took these points into account when you replied: > ------------------------------------------------- > >They only "exist" at that moment, and one does not arise without > the other. > > --------------------------------------------------- > > I don't see why the co-arising of two phenomena should make them > essentially one. May I ask you, do you agree that each of the two is > dependent on wholly different conditions? > > The other point Jon made, that I would like to get your opinion on, > was: > ---------- > >>The 'unity' created is not a unity in the > absolute/ultimate/fundamental sense of having its own individual > essence or characteristic (sabhava). >> > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Your reply was: > -------------- > >Their mutual dependence is part of what makes each of them empty. > > ------------------ > > Are we to infer that you take a different view of the teaching of > sabhava? Do you regard the terms,`emptiness' and `essence,' as being > mutually exclusive? > > Sorry to keep harping on about this -- I think I have asked you the > same question before -- but it's a lot easier to follow a discussion > if one knows what the participants are accepting as common ground. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19430 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 8:33am Subject: (2)4.Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers Dear Dhamma Friends, After Permanent and Flexible ministers(cetasikas) have been described,here destructive ministers will be delineated.They destroy the place they home. 1.Moha He is the leader for all Akusala cetasikas.It is also called ''Avijja'' that is the opposite of ''Vijja''(Panna).All the destructive minds are led by him.It veils the real things and the truth.So,Satta with it will never see real Dhamma.Instead it leads to all the destructive actions.It veils Citta not to see the truth. 2.Ahirika(shamelessness) It makes Citta shameless.So,citta will do everything regardless of glory.All the bad things can be done by shamelessness.There is no inhibition to do things bad in the absence of shame. 3.Anottappa(fearlessness) It makes citta dare do everthing.There will be no inhibition to do bad things in the absence of fear. 4.Uddicca(deconcentration) it makes citta wandering round from a sense to another successively and causes poor concentration.Wandering mind easily slips into Akusala actions. 5.Lobha(Tanha) It is strong desire or craving for things.Lobha has many different names like Lobha,Tanha,Raga,Upadana and so on.It makes Citta very greedy.It expands Sansara. 6.Ditthi(wrong view) It makes citta misinterprets the things.Under the influence of wrong view every bad thing may be done. 7.Mana(conceit) It makes citta proud and citta will behaves himself as self and self- referenced and self-orientated.Citta with Mana will think that he should be the topmost.If things are different,destructive mind will appear. 8.Dosa(anger) It makes citta angry,furious and changes suddenly to an aggressive one.Citta accompanied by Dosa is quite apparent and makes Sampayutta- rupas ugly. 9.Issa(jealousy) It makes citta jealous and leads to destructive actions. 10.Macchariya(stinginess) It makes citta not to share its own properties with others. 11.Kukkucca(repant) This is an ineffective mental factor as it makes citta thinks back what have not been done for Kusala-kamma and what have been done for Akusala-kamma. 12.Thina It makes citta less active. 13.Middha It makes cetasikas less active,so less active cetasikas help little to citta. 14.Vicikicca(suspicion) It makes citta suspicious to rely on The Dhamma. These 14 Cetasikas are happening daily in all areas.As they arise,they lead to destructive actions.If one can control these cetasikas well,he will be in peace. May you all be in peace by eradicating/derooting these akusala- cetasikas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19431 From: nidive Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: Right Concentration Hi RobertK, > The development of samatha is profound and difficult but that of > vipassana is more profound. If one genuinely believes they have > the accumulations to master jhana then great, but not all of us > do, it is good to understand this moment as it really is right > now, not try to change it to what we wish it to be. Thank you for posting the sutta on Cunda. I agree that the attaining of jhanas is not necessary for Enlightenment. But surely, even if our vehicle is by insight alone, don't we also need Right Concentration? How is Right Concentration then developed in the dry insight-worker? We have two types of concentration that helps us in Unbinding in Anguttara Nikaya IV.41. This sutta makes it clear that we must practise the last type of concentration for Unbinding to occur. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html. (Note: the last two types.) And the Buddha said that Right Concentration is: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness -- is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html My question is: To what extent is concentration of the last two types developed such that there is "singleness of mind"? I find that the answer to this question lies in momentary concentration as the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw taught. I quote from Jonothan Abbott in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3539 For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with FULL ABSORPTION, like the mundane jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. Access concentration always precede absorption concentration. If we do not even have access concentration in the first place, how can we attain full absorption concentration of the path and fruition cittas? I quote from ADL Chapter 21: http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid21.html At the moment the 'counterpart sign' arises, there is a higher degree of calm and concentration is more developed. This stage is called 'access concentration' (upacara samadhi). The citta is not jhanacitta, it is still kamavacara citta (of the sense-sphere), but the hindrances do not arise at the moment of 'access concentration'. The purpose of attaining 'access concentration' is to suppress the hindrances. If the (five) hindrances are not suppressed, the path and fruition cittas can never arise. If we do not have access concentration that precedes the absorption concentration (as we do not develop the jhanas), then what access concentration do we have? Venerable Henepola states that: The Sayadaw holds that this momentary concentration claims the place of purification of mind in the dry insight-worker's course of development. He states that though it "has only momentary duration, its power of resistance to being overwhelmed by opposition corresponds to that of access concentration." Don't you think that by just relying on insight alone without practising concentration is just like missing a piece of the jigsaw puzzle? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19432 From: bodhi342 Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 2:16pm Subject: Parameters Dear All, The Buddha declared "I teach only suffering and the cessation of suffering." Kom wrote on another thread "The Buddha's dhamma is truly beautiful, unlike all other teachings, as it is ultimately undeniable (because it has its own characterisitics) and unchangeable. The ultimate proof of the Buddha's teachings is right in front of our nose, at every moment." May I ask what is the general feeling (or understanding) about other teachings? Do they address complimentary but somewhat separate issues, or are they just wrong? Implicit in this is whether the Buddha's teachings illuminate one aspect of reality, or the whole of reality? If it is the latter, how does that conform to his declaration above? metta, dharam 19433 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 3:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Parameters Dear Dharam, Interesting questions! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: [dsg] Parameters > May I ask what is the general feeling (or understanding) about other > teachings? I don't know of any other teachings that address the four noble truths (or two, as above). It's my guarded opinion that these are unique to Buddhadhamma. > Do they address complimentary but somewhat separate issues, or are > they just wrong? Personally, I don't find religions or philosophies either complimentary to Buddhadhamma or 'wrong' per se (well, some seem wrong to me in various ways). However, I haven't found one that I think is relevant to the four noble truths. > Implicit in this is whether the Buddha's teachings illuminate one > aspect of reality, or the whole of reality? I'm not sure I'd call the four noble truths one aspect of reality; still I think the former rather than the latter: "Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa forest?" "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them." Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 Simsapa Sutta The Simsapa Leaves Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > If it is the latter, > how does that conform to his declaration above? I think this finally gets into the meaning of 'reality'. A big can of worms, as can be seen in the archives...! mike 19434 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 5:24pm Subject: Re: Right Concentration Hi Swee Boon, Right concentration is defined in terms of jhana You might have come across these pages in ATI: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-samadhi.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/jhana.html Regards, Victor 19435 From: ajahn_paul Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 8:07pm Subject: For Momo was (Re: Photo of Rusty) Christine, had been to china for few days, just got ur message today.... thanksfor the poem! as a buddhist, we should know very well that lives or anything in the material world cant escape from the 4 steps.... but,,, theory is easy to [speak]..... anyway, thanks for ur message! ^^ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello Paul, > > Yes, Rusty is my dog. I'm sorry to hear that Momo is not with you > anymore. It is sad when a loved dog has to leave us. May there > have been a fortunate rebirth. Here is a poem for you Paul. It is > written from a Christian perspective, but it is written by someone > who has had a close relationship with a dog. > > metta, > Christine > > 'Just my dog' by Gene Hill > "He is my other eyes that can see above the clouds; > my other ears that hear above the winds. > He is the part of me that can reach out into the sea. He has told me > a thousand times over that I am his reason for being: > by the way he rests against my leg; > by the way he thumps his tail at my smallest smile; > by the way he shows his hurt when I leave without taking him. > (I think it makes him sick with worry when he is not along to care > for me.) > > When I am wrong, he is delighted to forgive. > When I am angry, he clowns to make me smile. > When I am happy, he is joy unbounded. > > When I am a fool, he ignores it. > When I succeed, he brags. > > Without him, I am only another man. With him, I am all-powerful. > > He is loyalty itself. He has taught me the meaning of devotion. > > With him, I know a secret comfort and a private peace. > He has brought me understanding where before I was ignorant. > > His head on my knee can heal my human hurts. > His presence by my side is protection against my fears of dark and > unknown things. > > He has promised to wait for me ... whenever ... wherever-- in case I > need him. And I expect I will -- as I always have." > 19436 From: a_doc99 Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 8:47pm Subject: Where is the mind? I did read a Thai Buddhist book long time ago. It said that the mind is at some place (I forget) in brain and is connected to 5 senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) at that place. Is there anyone know more about this? Please let me know. Have a nice day, A www.wakeupsmart.com 19437 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 9:44pm Subject: What would be a good rebirth? Hi everyone, I just read something second-hand which included the wish for a good rebirth. Which got me thinking, are there objective qualities that would designate a good rebirth, or is it personal whim only? There is probably a general understanding that no rebirth should be considered ideal, but is that what people really aspire to? (Nina wrote along these lines recently.) Do people ever wish each other no rebirth? If all existence is dukkha, are there grades of dukkha in different planes of existence, so that being a deva is somehow less dukkhic (nice word) than being a flea? To me it sounds a little harsh, but it seems Buddhistically correct so here goes May you all not get reborn anymore real soon now. Herman 19438 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 10:01pm Subject: another lurker Want to pop out of lurk mode long enough to say anumodana with everyone studying here before I dive back into the archive cd. Thank you all for making that possible. Just got home from my weekly meditation group where Mary was talking about a plant she has that is getting ready to bloom for the 2nd time in ten years. It's called a snake palm most of the time, but when it blooms, she says it is quite deserving of it's other name, rotting corpse. To hear her describe it, it's very beautiful otherwise. peace, connie 19439 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 10:20pm Subject: Re: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor.......lawyer, used car salesman Hi Sarah, Thanks for your encouragement on the lurking issue (yet again). Several weeks ago, I promised to report back on the `virati' reading material you had thoughtfully provided. I don't have any startling conclusions, just the usual, creeping comprehension. My aim was to understand why you were so unimpressed by outward displays of right livelihood. I could see how a person sitting crossed legged, smiling beautifully, was not necessarily without lobha, dosa and moha; but to see that a person weilding a pig-sticker might possibly be entertaining moments of harmlessness and right understanding, was a test of my conviction. It's all the same thing, of course -- reality is not the stories we project, it's the single, present, fleeting moment of nama and rupa. How easy it is to forget this, and how good it is to remember. Kind regards, Ken H 19440 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 10:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: subject and object Hi Howard, Thanks for the elucidation. In theory, I have absolutely no objection to your `phenomenalist' approach. In practice, I probably want everyone to be just like me :-) To tell a person to throw out one approach and take up another, would be to assume a self who can do those things. (unless one were purely describing a scenario, of course) Accepting that we have no ultimate control over these things, I wonder what would be the ideal approach to Dhamma study. A purely academic one would seem to have a lot going for it. Wouldn't it be good if we could digest all the technical explanations without worrying, "do I agree with this; can this be absorbed into my own theories?" But that's not how it works; we are what we are and we have the approach that we have. The journey is all about knowing the way things are. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > Rather than reply to your post point by point, let me make a few > statements that I hope will clarify the entire matter. > First, recall that I approach all this as a phenomenalist. By an 19441 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Parameters Hi Dharam, I’ve been greatly appreciating your posts and wise reflections. --- "bodhi342 " wrote: > Dear All, > > The Buddha declared "I teach only suffering and the cessation of > suffering." > May I ask what is the general feeling (or understanding) about other > teachings? ..... I think that the more that is understood about the meaning of ‘suffering’as taught by the Buddha, the more easily your question will be answered;-) As you have already gathered, dukkha does not just refer to what we conventionally take to be suffering or stress. Only by clearly understanding phenomena as namas and rupas, as khandhas and as elements, can dukkha really be understood as taught by the Buddha. I was also taking another look at the Upanisa Sutta (SN, 11,Nidanavagga, vol1, p.553 Bodhi transl). I find this more helpful in the text as there is just the sutta with the helpful commentary notes at the back. Less confusing for me. There is an interesting commentary note on the meaning of ‘upanisa’- sa-upanisaa.....”with cause, with condition”. ‘the cause is called the proximate cause because the effect rests upon it.” So we read about the various proximate causes and I think that understanding about conditions and causes helps us to know more about the conditionality of phenomena that arise and pass away accordingly. No self involved to cause anything. We read from the commentary note that in this context of dependent origination, wherein suffering is given as the proximate cause of faith: “Suffering is the suffering of the round (va.t.ta -dukkha). Faith is repeatedly arising faith (aparaapara.m uppajjanasaddhaa; that is tentative faith, not the unwavering faith of a noble disciple)”. The vatta dukkha (round of suffering) refers to the 3 rounds of kamma-vatta (round of kamma), kilesa vatta (round of defilements) and vipaka vatta (round of results). We can see that all the various links of paticca samuppada are included in these rounds. In useful Posts, under ‘Rounds’, and ‘Dependent Origination’ Rob K has written a few posts which explain in more detail: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts At the beginning of the Upanisa sutta we read: “The destruction of the cankers, monks, is for one who knows and sees, I say, not for one who does not know and does not see. Knowing what, seeing what does the destruction of the cankers occur? 'Such is material form, such is the arising of material form, such is the passing away of material form. Such is feeling... perception... mental formations... consciousness; such is the arising of consciousness, such is the passing away of consciousness' -- for one who knows and sees this, monks, the destruction of the cankers occurs.” In other words, in order to understand the meaning of suffering or to understand the 3 rounds, all these realities (“....”) have to be known and clearly distinguished. This is the way that faith/confidence (saddha) will grow. If there is no knowing (directly with panna) that seeing or hearing consciousness are vipaka vatta, quite different from ignorance or craving which are kilesa vatta, then it is impossible for higher levels of wisdom which really penetrate the impermanence and unsatisfactoriness of realities to develop. We can see that all realities depend on various conditions and the wisdom that knows this is the second stage of insight. You ask about other teachings and I noticed in one or two of your posts you gave some neat quotes from other teachings, such as one which related to the worldly conditions and consideration of pain and pleasure as the same. This is why we have to investigate deeper and deeper, I think. Sometimes teachings may seem alike, but when we investigate what the real meanings of words like suffering or conditions or ultimate realities are, we may find that only in Buddhism do we really have a chance to understand about the tri-lakkhana of all conditioned realities. On another topic, I really liked some of your comments about watching out for signals of delusion and needing to have attention “directed towards the truth about “........”. All other endeavour is likely relatively futile......”. Dharam, these are very wise words and with them you’ll be finding all your own answers, I know. As you also said, “Dhamma shows a wise way forward.” I would say all your questions are very deep - not at all basic. You said you are “just another seeker of the ultimate reality”. Such seekers are not common;-) You mentioned in that post (no 19051 to me, I now note) that Anatta...”is the ultimate truth about sentient beings.” I know that you appreciate that ‘sentient beings’ are concepts and that anatta is one of the characteristics of all ultimate phenomena or realities, i.e of all namas and rupas. I just wished to clarify, though I’m sure it was just a use of language. Finally, I’d also like to say that I liked your use of cancer analogies and I appreciate the comments such as these for many personal as well as dhamma reasons: “there is sublimation of the cells by the body itself. The cancer cells have played their part as pointers to imbalance. The ‘cure’ is addressing the underlying problem - much better than killing.....”. Let me finish with waht I thought was a really “excellent;-)” response from TG: “Generally you have a good point in that dukkha is the source of our becoming aware that there is a problem and the impetus for finding a remedy. But dukkha is not the therapy or medicine. The therapy or medicince are the states that oppose dukkha. Just as cancer is not the therapy or medicine for cancer. The therapy or medicine are the things that fight cancer. One would not want to say that getting cancer is beneficial because it allows one awareness to fight cancer...anymore than one would want to say that dukkha is beneficial because it allows one awareness to fight dukkha.” Look forward to more of your and TG’s posts on dukkha. Metta, Sarah ====== 19442 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 0:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor.......lawyer, used car salesman Hi Ken H, This is an old, familiar thread;-) --- "kenhowardau " wrote: > Hi Sarah, ..... > My aim was to understand why you were so unimpressed by outward > displays of right livelihood. I could see how a person sitting > crossed legged, smiling beautifully, was not necessarily without > lobha, dosa and moha; but to see that a person weilding a pig-sticker > might possibly be entertaining moments of harmlessness and right > understanding, was a test of my conviction. > > It's all the same thing, of course -- reality is not the stories we > project, it's the single, present, fleeting moment of nama and rupa. > How easy it is to forget this, and how good it is to remember. .... Yes, I wouldn’t say that we couldn’t come to some accurate conclusions about the ‘person wielding a pig-sticker’(!), but I think we can see for ourselves how little our kilesa depend on a particular situation and how much they depend on the accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha which have a knack of following us around regardless of lifestyle and livelihood. We never know what defilements will arise or when there will be wise reflections. I mentioned in a recent post to a new member from Israel that when I spent a couple of summers working on a kibbutz in Israel I remember reading and re-reading a book on religions, especially the chapter on Buddhism which made me determined to head for India when I finished university. Well, one job I had there was that of ‘toilet-cleaner’ for all the public toilets! Everyone felt sorry for me and thought I was noble to volunteer, but I liked it because I could race around, work on my own and reflect on religions, finishing work before anyone else and then quietly reading;-) It proved to be an opportunity for a lot of ‘right livelihood’ for me at the time. With regard to judging others, I gave a link to a post of Kom’s yesterday, but I don’t think it was the one I had in mind on anumodhana. Anyway, in it he wrote: “When we hardly know our own akusala, it is useless (from the dhamma perspective) and probably impossible to know others'. It is better to know our akusala really well first.” Also,he wrote: “we should be compassionate toward people with akusala, because akusala only rises conditioned by ignorance, and deeds and words motivated by akusala only bring bad results. If we can, we should do what we can to help the person to see the fault of akusala. If we cannot, then we know that there are no conditions for akusala to be interrupted. Ultimately, realities rule.” ..... As you kindly remind me back: K:>reality is not the stories we > project, it's the single, present, fleeting moment of nama and rupa. > How easy it is to forget this, and how good it is to remember. ..... ...and even if we find ourselves wielding a stick, there are these same namas and rupas and opportunities for awareness or abstention from wrong livelihood. Glad you came back on this thread. Metta, Sarah ====== 19443 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 0:47am Subject: Re: Parameters --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342 " wrote: > > May I ask what is the general feeling (or understanding) about other > teachings? > > Do they address complimentary but somewhat separate issues, or are > they just wrong? > Implicit in this is whether the Buddha's teachings illuminate one > aspect of reality, or the whole of reality? If it is the latter, > how does that conform to his declaration above? > ____________ Dear Dharam, Christine wrote a while back: "Majjhima Nikaya Suttas: MN11 Culasinhanada Sutta 'The Shorter Discourse on the Lion's Roar' The Buddha compares his teaching point by point with those of other recluses and brahmins and shows that beneath their apparent similaritiies, they finally diverge on just this one crucial point - the rejection of view of self - which undermines the agreements." http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/011-culasihanada-sutta-e1.htm RobertK 19444 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Parameters Dear Dharam and RobK, --- "rjkjp1 " wrote: > > Dear Dharam, > Christine wrote a while back: "Majjhima Nikaya Suttas: > MN11 Culasinhanada Sutta 'The Shorter Discourse on the Lion's Roar' > The Buddha compares his teaching point by point with those of other > recluses and brahmins and shows that beneath their apparent > similaritiies, they finally diverge on just this one crucial point - > the rejection of view of self - which undermines the agreements." > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/011-culasihanada-sutta-e1.htm > RobertK ..... Let me add the passage from this Abhidhamma commentary which has been quoted before as well: From: The Dispeller of Delusion (Sammohavinodani),Classification of Bases, 242f: "The characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known with or without the arising of the Tathagatas. The characteristic of no-self is not made known without the arising of the Englightened Ones; it is made known only on the arising of the Enlightened ones. For such wanderers and ascetics (taapasa) as the master Sarabhanga are mighty and powerful and are able to express "the impermanent and painful": (but) they are unable to express "no-self". For if they were able to express "no-self" in a present assembly there would be penetration of path and fruition in the present assembly. For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened Ones only. Thus the characteristic of no-self is unobvious. That is why the Master, when teaching the characteristic of no-self, taught it by means of impermanence or by means of pain or by means of both impermanence and pain. But here it should be understood that he taught it by means of both impermanence and pain. But it is owing to not keeping what in mind, owing to non-penetration of what and owing to concealment by what that these characteristics do not appear?. Firstly the characteristic of impermanence does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating rise and fall owing to its being concealed by continuity (santati). The characteristic of pain does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating continuous oppression and owing to its being concealed by the postures (iriyaapatha). The characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (naanaadhaatu-vinibbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness. But when continuity is dissected by laying hold of rise and fall, the characteristic of impermanence appears in accordance with its true essential nature. When the postures are exposed (ugghaa.tita) by keeping in mind continual oppression, the characteristic of pain appears in accordance with its true essential nature. When resolving of the compact (ghanavinibboga) is effected by resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of no-self appears in accordance with its true essential nature. And here the following difference should be understood: impermanence and the characteristic of impermanence, pain and the characteristic of pain, no-self and the characteristic of no-self. Herein, the five aggregates (pa~ncakhandha) are impermanent. Why? Because they rise and fall and change, or because of their absence after having been. Rise and fall and change are the characteristic of impermanence, or mode of alteration (aakaaravikaara) called absence after having been. But those same five aggregates are painful because of the words "what is impermanent is painful" (S iv 1). Why? Because of continual oppression. the mode of being continually oppressed is the characteristic of pain. But those five aggregates are no-self because of the words "what is painful is no-self" (S iv 1). Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self." ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 19445 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] another lurker Hi Connie and our 'other new friend', Welcome to DSG and I hope you find it useful here. Pls ask lots of questions or give lots of answers;-) --- connie wrote: > Want to pop out of lurk mode long enough to say anumodana with everyone > studying here before I dive back into the archive cd. Thank you all for > making that possible. .... If anyone doesn't understand the reference, this is the cd of the entire archives which Jon mentioned we were happy to send to anyone. It can be used for searches of topics but I have to say, I still use the escribe search which I find much quicker (although it doesn't go right back to the beginning and there are occasional gaps when escribe broke down): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ The c.d is very useful for people who travel like Rob M or for those with limited internet use because it can still be used to read the archives and is probably much easier for scrolling through for this too. If anyone else wants a copy, let Jon know off-list. ..... > Just got home from my weekly meditation group where Mary was talking > about a plant she has that is getting ready to bloom for the 2nd time in > ten years. It's called a snake palm most of the time, but when it > blooms, she says it is quite deserving of it's other name, rotting > corpse. To hear her describe it, it's very beautiful otherwise. .... Sounds like it could be a dilemma whether to specially stay home or go on holiday for the bloom;-) Connie, let us know if there's anything else you need directions to and it's never too late to raise anything on posts from the archives, esp. if it relates to the post of a member who's around and able to discuss further;-) 'Other new friend', I'll let someone else respond to your difficult qus. Perhaps we can say that 'mind' and 'brain' and 'location' are just concepts or ideas we have that don't really exist in Buddhism? What do you think? Can I persuade either of you to tell us a little more about yourselves, like how you became interested in Buddhism, where you live and so on. (We also try to encourage everyone to address someone, even if it's 'All' at the start and sign off with a real name which we can use in reply. Hope that's OK) With metta, Sarah ======= 19446 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 4:30am Subject: Location (was Re: another lurker) Hi Sarah, I am happy you sent this post. I have been puzzled for a long time, years that is, by an observation during meditation. I have been working my way up to asking about it. (Meditational issues seem to be a bit taboo on this site). Anyway, I am feeling courageous right now, and you said the magic word I have been puzzled about, namely "location". I am happy to accept that I just don't get it, but as I said, when I am wordlessly (watching) the coming and going of all sorts of mindstates, one of the attributes of whatever arises and disappears is location. Whether it is heat or pressure or sound or colour, all of these things seem to have a spatial aspect. I would like to read your comments on this, and everyone else's of course. And without wishing to control the comments I get back, I would prefer them to be based on experience.( I once went to an eye specialist, and on explaining my symptoms he said that it was impossible for me to have those symptoms.) I am just simply wondering, does the spatial aspect of whatever arises disappear at a certain stage of whatever it is there are stages of? May you not be reborn Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Perhaps we can say that 'mind' and 'brain' and 'location' are just > concepts or ideas we have that don't really exist in Buddhism? What do you > think? > 19447 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 4:40am Subject: Re: Where is the mind? Dear Friend, Where the mind is a difficult question to answer if one is trying to explain from scientific point of view. Brain is NOT the mind and mind does not exist in the brain.The brain may be assumed as work place for the mind but not exactly. Mind has many many associated factors.It has the characteristic of knowing of all senses including thoughts and ideas.As it is not a physical one,no one can find it.But its existance can be aware of. Find yourself the mind and if you still have problems please do not hesitate to contact me. With Metta, Htoo Naing ----------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "a_doc99 " wrote: > I did read a Thai Buddhist book long time ago. It said that the mind is at > some place (I forget) in brain and is connected to 5 senses (eye, ear, > nose, tongue, body) at that place. Is there anyone know more about > this? Please let me know. > Have a nice day, > A > www.wakeupsmart.com Weight Age Gender Female Male 19448 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentariness of dhammas (was, Susima Sutta 2) Swee Boon You make a number of interesting observations about the development of the concentration, including 'momentary' concentration, that accompanies moments of magga citta. I hope you don't mind if I set out some random thoughts. I think it's important to keep in mind that *all dhammas* (except nibbana) are momentary. Thus enlightenment (supramundane path consciousness/magga citta) is momentary as are the mental factors that accompany it. These mental factors are the factors that comprise the Noble Eightfold Path, including especially the 5 that are: wisdom/panna (samma-ditthi), right thinking/vitakka (samma-sangkapa), energy/viriya (samma-vayama), awareness/sati (samma-sati). concentration /ekaggata (samma-samadhi) The development leading to enlightenment is again momentary dhammas, in this case mundane path consciousness (insight/vipassana bhavana/satipatthana) and the mental factors that accompany it. These mental factors are the mundane versions of the 5 Eightfold Path factors just above (including concentration). Considered on a momentary basis like this, it perhaps helps us to understand the significance of the commentary passage (cited by Christine recently) which says that enlightenment is the outcome of vipassana bhavana. Each moment of vipassana bhavana accumulates the factors that will be needed to accompany the magga citta when enlightenment is attained. Samatha bhavana (tranquillity) is also momentary. It too is a citta that is accompanied by the mental factors of wisdom/panna and concentration/ekaggata, but these factors differ in quality from the same factors that accompany vipassana bhavana (insight). Here the panna is of a level that sees the advantage in the tranquillity associated with the absence of kusala, and its goal is the development of that tranquillity to a level where all akusala is totally (but temporarily) subdued. To my understanding, concentration that has been developed in samatha bhavana cannot somehow be 'applied' towards examining realties to understand their true nature; this function can only be performed by the citta that is vipassana bhavana, and this citta is accompanied by the mental factor of concentration that is of the level and quality appropriate to that citta at its present strength. As to how the concentration necessary for the magga citta/supramundane path consciousness can be developed, I believe the answer is that it is developed in the same way as any other quality (wholesome or unwholesome), namely, by its repeated arising (in a weaker form) and gradual accumulation over time. In the case of the concentration that accompanies enlightenment/supramundane path consciousness, this means the repeated arising of insight/mundane path consciousness, which is accompanied by the mundane versions of the Noble Eightfold Path factors, as described in M 117 (and quoted by you in your recent post to Rob K). As regards the references in the texts to Right Concentration in terms of the 4 jhanas, I believe this is meant as a description of the force and function of the concentration that occurs at the moment of supramundane path consciousness. This is explained in the notes to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (CMA) in a passage you also quoted recently and which I set out below. So to summarise, all concentration, like all dhammas, is momentary in nature. The concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path moments, like the other necessary factors of those moments, is developed by the development of vipassana. Happy to discuss further. Jon ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31 [F]or bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > In brief, I am saying that for magga/phala to arise, concentration > (or tranquility) is always needed. It need not be jhana/absorption > concentration or access concentration. But if our vehicle is by > insight and without jhanas, at least momentary concentration is > necessary. ... > And I identify momentary concentration as part of Right > Concentration in one whose vehicle is by insight. If one does not > practice jhana/absorption or access concentration, at least one > must > practice momentary concentration. This is the minimum to fulfill > the > Noble Eight-fold Path factor of Right Concentration. > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19449 From: dearranil2 Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 6:13am Subject: Re: The Language of the Heart: Attn NEO Swee Boon Dear NEO Swee Boon Applogies for the late reply, > In short, are you saying that the mind is permanent? Everything is changing, so do the mind. > In short, are you saying that an arahant though dead (gone > parinibbana), still had a mind, "Had" or you mean "Have"? Anyway, if it is "had", yes. If it is "Have" no > but that this mind is totally different from non-arahants? When an arahath is living "totally different" Yes/No both. Yes - because he has understood nirvana and no more kamma will get generated. No - because it still is experiencing things just like a non arahaths mind. > In short, are you saying that a dead arahant (gone parinibbana) is > still 'existing' An arahath has gone into pari nibbana. Buddha answered the question in "no" to all combinations about pari nibbana. existing - No not existing - No existing and not existing - No ~with metta ranil 19450 From: Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] What would be a good rebirth? Hi, Herman - In a message dated 2/6/03 12:45:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi everyone, > > I just read something second-hand which included the wish for a good > rebirth. Which got me thinking, are there objective qualities that > would designate a good rebirth, or is it personal whim only? > > There is probably a general understanding that no rebirth should be > considered ideal, but is that what people really aspire to? (Nina > wrote along these lines recently.) Do people ever wish each other no > rebirth? > > If all existence is dukkha, are there grades of dukkha in different > planes of existence, so that being a deva is somehow less dukkhic > (nice word) than being a flea? > > To me it sounds a little harsh, but it seems Buddhistically correct > so here goes > > May you all not get reborn anymore real soon now. > > > Herman > ========================== As I see it, when there is no sense of self, then there is no rebirth. A wish for "no rebirth" is, to me, a wish for complete enlightenment. With no sense of self whatsoever (in person or things), all places and all conditions are nibbana. [Recall the story, Theravadin I hope, but perhaps not, of when the Buddha was walking down the road shortly after the Bodhi tree culmination, and he was questioned as to what he was - a human, a deva, etc? And his reply was that no - he was an awakened one. So, while residing in the human realm, yet he was not of that realm - his abiding was a no-abiding.] Generally, from the Buddhist perspective, births into the so-called lower realms (the hell realms, the realm of animals, and the titan or demonic realm) are "bad" births, but even births into heaven realms and formless realms, with much pleasure or ease, and no major suffering, are suboptimal. Only a human birth, one presumably with adequate conditions, is optimal in that it is neither impossibly dreadful or overwhelmingly joyous, and is thus the one realm where Buddhist cultivation is reasonably possible to engage in. (Of course, one can physically reside on planet earth circa 2003 in human form, and, internally, one is an animal or a hell being, belying the human appearance.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19451 From: nidive Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 7:23am Subject: Re: The Language of the Heart: Attn NEO Swee Boon Hi ranil, Thank you for your late response. I have no further inquiries as to your reply. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19452 From: Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Hi, Ken - Sadhu x 3!! (Your post, without further comment by me, is pasted below.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/6/03 1:32:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for the elucidation. > > In theory, I have absolutely no objection to your `phenomenalist' > approach. In practice, I probably want everyone to be just like > me :-) > > To tell a person to throw out one approach and take up another, would > be to assume a self who can do those things. (unless one were purely > describing a scenario, of course) > > Accepting that we have no ultimate control over these things, I > wonder what would be the ideal approach to Dhamma study. A purely > academic one would seem to have a lot going for it. Wouldn't it > be good if we could digest all the technical explanations without > worrying, "do I agree with this; can this be absorbed into my own > theories?" > > But that's not how it works; we are what we are and we have the > approach that we have. The journey is all about knowing the way > things are. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19453 From: nidive Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 8:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentariness of dhammas (was, Susima Sutta 2) Hi Jon, > So to summarise, all concentration, like all dhammas, is momentary > in nature. The concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path moments, > like the other necessary factors of those moments, is developed by > the development of vipassana. Agreed. But I also find the teachings of Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw on momentary concentration (khanika-samadhi) very helpful. I think at least this type of concentration is necessary for Enlightenment. Bikkhu Bodhi says in "The Noble Eightfold Path by Bhikkhu Bodhi" Chapter VII: http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp7.php The kinds of concentration discussed so far arise by fixing the mind upon a single object to the exclusion of other objects. But apart from these there is another kind of concentration which does not depend upon restricting the range of awareness. This is called "momentary concentration" (khanika-samadhi). To develop momentary concentration the meditator does not deliberately attempt to exclude the multiplicity of phenomena from his field of attention. Instead, he simply directs mindfulness to the changing states of mind and body, noting any phenomenon that presents itself; the task is to maintain a continuous awareness of whatever enters the range of perception, clinging to nothing. As he goes on with his noting, concentration becomes stronger moment after moment until it becomes established one-pointedly on the constantly changing stream of events. Despite the change in the object, the mental unification remains steady, and in time acquires a force capable of suppressing the hindrances to a degree equal to that of access concentration. This fluid, mobile concentration is developed by the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness, taken up along the path of insight; when sufficiently strong it issues in the breakthrough to the last stage of the path, the arising of wisdom. I also find this link to one of Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw's sermons very helpful as well: http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/mahasi.htm Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19454 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:14am Subject: Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 4 Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 4 III: Someone may object to what is explained above by comparing bodily intimation and speech intimation. He may contend that just as there is speech intimation (vací viññatti) when someone who is singing utters sounds, there must also be, in the same way, bodily intimation (kåyaviññatti) when the body moves. This objection can be countered by the following argument: when sound originates from citta, the rúpa of speech intimation, vací viññatti, surely arises. However, when the body moves, only the three vikåra rúpas, rúpas of changeability, may arise, but not the rúpa of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti. In the case of bodily movement, the vikåra rúpas originating from the citta which intends bodily movement are necessary, and their functioning is also dependent on the vikåra rúpas originating from temperature and nutrition. In this way movement of the body can occur. IV: It is stated in the Visuddhimagga, (Description of the Aggregates, Ch XIV, 61, kåya viññatti): ²...this is called Œkåya-viññatti¹ because it is the cause of the intimating (viññåpana) of intention by means of bodily motion, and because also oneself can know this through the body, in other words, through that bodily motion...² This means that citta wishes to express a meaning by means of that rúpa, no matter whether someone else understands it or not. There may also be rúpas originating from the citta which does not intend to convey a meaning, when one moves the body naturally while standing, walking, sitting or lying down. If others think that a meaning is being conveyed, that is due to their own thinking and does not concern the rúpa of bodily intimation. V: We read in the ³Atthasåliní² (Expositor II, Book II, Part I, Ch 3, Derived Material Qualities, 323) that there are thirtytwo cittas which produce rúpas that support and strengthen the postures and also the rúpas which are intimation. These cittas are: mind-door adverting-consciousness, manodvåråvajjana citta, twelve akusala cittas, eight mahå-kusala cittas (kusala cittas of the sense-sphere), eight mahå-kiriyacittas, smile rpoducing consciousness (of the arahat), hasituppåda citta and two abhiññå cittas (of supranatural power). Therefore, when one only intends to move the body in assuming the different postures, without the wish to convey a meaning, citta is the condition for the arising of groups of rúpa which are not accompanied by intimation, viññatti rúpa. VI: Someone may contend that viññatti rúpa can originate from citta, even if citta has no intention to convey a meaning but someone else can still perceive a certain meaning. However, this should be carefully considered. For example, when somebody is fast asleep, there are bhavangacittas (life-continuum), which can surely not condition the arising of viññatti rúpa. Whether someone else perceives a meaning or not concerns only the citta of that person. 19455 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 46, Comm, Deportment Hi Larry and all, Some passages I could add notes: op 05-02-2003 00:37 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > [Tika] In the same way he sees the arising of the aggregate of > materiality through the origination of craving, karma and food, in the > sense of the origin of conditions, and also while seeing the sign of > birth [nibbatti lakkhana passanto pi]. Nina: There are four characteristics inherent in all rupas (here sign is not such a clear tran of lakkhana): integration (first arising), continuity (the arising throughout life), decay and destruction. (later on more in Dhamma Issues). > > [T] For the arising of the materiality-aggregate ignorance, craving, > karma and food are the principal reasons. But these are not all. As it > is said that one sees the arising of the materiality-aggregate when > beholding also the rebirth-sign or the bare origination state called the > integration-succession [upacaya santati] of the various material forms > [rupa] becoming manifest in the conscious flux [saviññanaka > santana], owing to ignorance, craving, karma, and nutriment, and from > consciousness [citta] and the process of caloricity [utu], the knowledge > of arising is fivefold. Nina: Four factors can at this moment produce rupa: kamma, citta, nutriment and caloricity (or temperature). Here are also given other conditions stemming from the past. There is reference to the second stage of vipassana : understanding of conditions. > [T] Similarly the knowledge of passing away or ceasing is fivefold. The > sign of vicissitude or change is the bare state of dissolution [bhanga > sabhava] called impermanency [aniccata]. Nina: this is the fourth characteristic inherent in all rupas. We read again precraving: former craving, and craving throughout life. Past craving conditions our being here now, doing what we are doing now, be it kusala or akusala. Let us profit from the text on the postures. What is "I' at this moment? I sit? No, in reality countless rupas arising in groups, arising because of manyfold, intricate conditions. Rupas which come together just for an extremely short moment and then fall away. We still keep on thinking, I am sitting. As we read in the Co, we are like puppets, citta pulls the strings so that we can move. Where is the living being that could move by its own inner strength, without the conditions being present? Nina 19456 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:14am Subject: Abhidhamma Dear friends, A Tibethan saying was mentioned here: our enemy is our best teacher. A long time ago I had a good exchange with an old friend, Eric, about this subject. He is also Tibetan orientated. Of course, really our defilements are our enemy, not another person. But this saying is a good reminder. Being in a contrarious situation helps me to consider what is essential in my life. Suttas quoted here have a special impact on me now, it is as if the Buddha personally talks to me, just fitting for my situation. It is so direct, I find. More than ever I am inspired and motivated to explain what the Abhidhamma is. I also realize more that it is difficult for others to understand what the Abhidhamma really is. Not knowing what the Abhidhamma is can cause a great deal of aversion or even anger. I also understand that people are put off by the story that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma in the Heaven of the Thirtythree to his mother. As for me, I think only of the message this story contains. As to surroundings, heaven, these are conventional terms describing a situation. I do not doubt and I do not wonder whether this was true or not, or how to take it. This is not relevant to me. When in India we visited the place where the Buddha came down from heaven after three months of teaching Abhidhamma, that was in Sankassa. It is not important to me what the exact place was, I thought of his teaching of Abhidhamma and could whole-heartedly pay respect there. The Buddha, when he attained Buddhahood realized the truth of all dhammas. These are contained in the Tipitaka. He gave the nucleus of the Abhidhamma to Sariputta. The textual order of the Abhidhamma originated with Sariputta. I can say more on this, but I shall wait for Sarah. These are external arguments. What matters most to me: what is the message the Buddha taught me. These are the internal arguments. Today there are conditions for me to talk about the Abhidhamma, forgive me. I wrote on the Yahoo Pali list something I shall quote here: The Abhidhamma gives us all details about citta, cetasika and rupa, and all their intricate conditions. It depends on the listener how much he wants to study, but whatever we study, let us consider it in our life so that it becomes meaningful. Then we can see for ourselves that the Abhidhamma does not consist of dry, scientific, abstract classifications. We should not forget the second Book of the Abhidhamma, the Book of Analysis. Robert K and I have quoted from this:we learn here all the details on conceit, and other akusala dhammas. I can profit from it, so that I shall be less deluded about myself. The Abhidhamma gives us a sense of urgency not to delay kusala, before we know it the destructive ministers are there. We learn about the processes of cittas, how fast after seeing, hearing etc. akusala cittas can arise. We do not even notice them, cittas are so fast. There is a certain fixed order in the processes of cittas, and nobody can change this order. It depends on the accumulated cetasikas and many conditions whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise within a process, and before we know it the process is over, another process again. This can have impact on us personally: to grab that hand across the boundary, not to delay doing this. There are too many gaps between people because of conflicts. We can see that Suttanta and Vinaya also contains Abhidhamma, as I pointed out before. The Buddha speaks about the five khandhas, time and again. What else are these but citta, cetasika and rupa. Mike reminded us that the Upanisa Sutta contains Abhidhamma: the Dependent Origination. And so it is with many other suttas. The Great Elephant's Footprint Discourse gives us many details on rupas, internal and external. If people would only know what the message is that is contained in the Abhidhamma they would have a growing respect and appreciation of it. This I wish with all my heart, Nina. 19457 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:14am Subject: destructive ministers Dear Htoo, Thank you, you managed to depict the destructive ministers with a salient feature, very good. What dirty tricks they play, and they come in disguise, as constructive ministers. We may not recognize them in time. But the Abhidhamma really helps us to know our defilements and their conditions. Anumodana, Nina 19458 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:14am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7. Patience,no 23 Perfections, Ch 7. Patience,no 23 The Second Stanza: the words ³sabba-påpassa² (of all evil) mean: of all kinds of akusala. If we know that something is akusala, no matter how slight, we should abstain from it if we are able to do so. We read: The word ³akaranam² means, not causing to arise. The word ³kusalassa² (of kusala) means, of the kusala of the four planes [27] . The word ³upasampadå² means attainment (patilåbho), specific acquisition. The words ³sacitta-pariyodapanam² mean, purification of one¹s citta, and this is through arahatship. Thus, when recluses have eliminated all evil by the restraint of síla and brought kusala to fulfilment by samatha and vipassanå, the citta is purified by the fruition of arahatship (arahatta phala). This is the teaching, the exhortation, the admonition of the Buddhas. All this begins with patience, khanti, which is the highest ascetism. We read futher on: The Third stanza: The word ³anupavådo²(not insulting) means, not insulting anyone by speech. The word ³anupaghåto² (not harming) means, not harming through the body. The word ³påtimokkhe²(according to the påtimokkha) means, it liberates completely, that is, the highest síla; it guards in a supreme way, namely, it guards happy states; it liberates from danger, the danger of an unhappy destination. Or it guards happy states and liberates from unhappy states. Therefore, this síla is called påtimokkha [28]. If someone observes the síla of påtimokkha, he will be liberated from unhappy planes and he can go to happy planes. We read: The word ³mattaññutå², knowing moderation, means, knowing moderation in receiving and eating. The words ³pantañca sayan¹ åsanam², a secluded bed and seat, mean, a bed and seat free from the crowds. It is explained by means of these two requisites [29] that he is contented with the four requisites. The four requisites are dwelling, clothing, food and medicine. We read: The words ³etam Buddhånasåsanam², this is the teaching of the Buddhas, mean, not harming another, restraint according to the Påtimokkha, knowing moderation in receiving and eating, living in a secluded place, because he is a person who is skilfull in the eight attainments [30]. This is the teaching, the exhortation, the admonition of the Buddhas. Footnote: 27. Kusala of the four planes of citta: of the sensuous plane, kåmåvacara, kusala of the level of rúpa-jhana, of arúpa-jhana and kusala which is supramundane, lokuttara. 28. Påti means to guard or protect, and mokkheti means to liberate. 29. The requisites of food and dwelling place have been mentioned here. 30.The attainment of the stages of rúpajhåna and of arúpajhåna. 19459 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 11:43am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Hi Nina and all, The five khandhas are impermanent, dukkha, not self. They are to be seen as they actually are with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. They are not what I am. They are not my self." > cetasika and rupa, or in other words, five khandhas, that is the same. This is a straight-out self-view. Regards, Victor 19460 From: Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 8:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Victor (and Nina) - In a message dated 2/6/03 2:45:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Nina and all, > > The five khandhas are impermanent, dukkha, not self. They are to be > seen as they actually are with right discernment thus: "They are not > mine. They are not what I am. They are not my self." > > > > citta, > >cetasika and rupa, or in other words, five khandhas, that is the > same. > > > > This is a straight-out self-view. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: If what Nina meant by that is that there is a self, but all that it is is citta, cetasika, and rupa, then I would agree 100%. But if, as I believe, Nina meant that what is erroneously taken to be a self (or ourself) is merely citta, cetasika, and rupa, then I would consider the statement to be an affirmation of anatta. ------------------------------------------------- > > > Regards, > Victor > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19461 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 1:15pm Subject: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Dear Group, Through my reading I have come across some words attributed to the Buddha that I find quite disturbing: "Once the Exalted One dwelt in Ghosita-park at Kosambi. Then the venerable Ananda came to where the Exalted One was. Having so come he made obeisance to the Exalted One and took a seat at one side. So seated the venerable Ananda said thus to the Exalted One. "What is the reason, Lord, what is the cause that womenfolk do not preside in a court of justice,' nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a foreign* country ?" "Ananda, a woman is given to anger. Ananda, woman is envious. Ananda, a woman is greedy. Ananda, woman is poor in wisdom. This is the reason, Ananda, this is the cause, why women-folk do not preside in a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a foreign country." (Anguttara Nikaya II Chapter VIII PTS) CF: Is it not somewhat 'surprising' that, given this opportunity by the Ven. Ananda, the Buddha didn't choose to talk about the oppressive structure of a society that did not educate girls, and did not employ women in activities outside the home, but chose instead to describe women as angry, envious, greedy and with little wisdom? A simple 'that's the way this society is Ananda, boys are brought up differently to girls' would have sufficed. None of the women I know could be described as epitomising these bad qualities. Though all would experience the emotions occasionally, as do all men. (And I know many women who run their own businesses, are magistrates and members of parliament, and, of my close acquaintances there are none that have not travelled to foreign countries.) -------------------------------- And again, he spoke of Migasala who had enquired of Ananda about Kamma as: "Just a foolish, witless female woman, with just a woman's wit" (Anguttara Nikaya Chapter VIII PTS) CF: Surprising to describe one person in such a way, let alone to then generalise and speak of a 'just a woman's wit', as if such a thing came in a 'female package'. ------------------------------- and this, 'And what, Master Gotama, is a woman's aim?" "A man, O brahmin, is a woman's aim, her quest is for adornments, her mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal is domination." ( Anguttara Nikaya VI.52) CF: Another chance not taken to show some understanding of societal pressures and structures limiting the horizon of women? Instead, a limiting pronouncement is made. -------------------------------- and this, "Monks, there are these five disadvatages in a black snake. What five? It is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays friends. Even so, monks, there are these five disadvantages in a woman. What five? She is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays friends. These are the five. (Anguttara Nikaya III) CF: There is nothing that can be said, other than this is a very sad to read. ------------------------------ and this, with no citation, "Monks, womenfolk end their life unsated and unreplete with two things, What two? Sexual intercourse and childbirth. These are the two things." CF: Again, sad. ------------------------------- and this, Ananda: 'How are we to conduct ourselves, Lord, with regard to womankind?' The Buddha: 'As not seeing them, Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if we should see them, what are we to do"' The Buddha: 'No talking, Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if they should speak to us, Lord what are we to do?' The Buddha: 'Keep wide awake, Ananda.' (Dialogues of the Buddha II. Paribibbana Sutta) --------------------------------- metta, Christine 19462 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 3:22pm Subject: Location (was Re: another lurker) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > > I am happy to accept that I just don't get it, but as I said, when I > am wordlessly (watching) the coming and going of all sorts of > mindstates, one of the attributes of whatever arises and disappears > is location. Whether it is heat or pressure or sound or colour, all > of these things seem to have a spatial aspect. I would like to read > your comments on this, and everyone else's of course. And without > wishing to control the comments I get back, I would prefer them to be > based on experience.( I once went to an eye specialist, and on > explaining my symptoms he said that it was impossible for me to have > those symptoms.) I am just simply wondering, does the spatial aspect > of whatever arises disappear at a certain stage of whatever it is > there are stages of? ----------------- Dear Herman, I think this is an important question which delves into the difference between concept and reality. At the moment of the actual experience of a dhamma such as pressure or sound there is no concept of location - this can be proven each for oneself- but immediately after, so fast, there are concepts(with or without thinking in words) that 'locate' the pressure or sound or feeling etc. The difference between the conceptual process and the moment of experience can be known too. http://www.abhidhamma.org/CommentaryFeelings.htm#* It is said that an Elder of Cittala Hill was sick, turning over from side to side, again and again, and groaning with great pain. To him a young bhikkhu said: "Venerable Sir, which part of your body is painful?" -- "A specially painful place, indeed, there is not; as a result of taking certain things (such as forms, sounds etc.) for object there is the experiencing of painful feeling," replied the Elder. " endquote * see below for rest of story. > >Herman: "May you not be reborn". This is a nice wish, Herman, and one I guess we all have. Good to wish such a high state for others. Still, while ignorance of the true nature of nama and rupa is still present, as it is now, then rebirth must occur. "In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants." Mahasatipatthana sutta. RobertK **"Venerable Sir, from the time one knows that, is not bearing up (enduring) befitting?" said the young bhikkhu. "I am bearing up, friend," said the Elder. "Bearing up is excellent, Venerable Sir," said the young bhikkhu. The Elder bore up. Thereafter, the aerial humour caused injury right up to the heart. His intestines protruded out and lay in a heap on the bed. The Elder pointed that out to the young bhikkhu and said: "Friend, is bearing up so far befitting?" The young bhikkhu remained silent. The Elder, having applied concentration with energy, attained arahantship with Analytical Knowledge and passed away into the final peace of Nibbana, in the state of consciousness immediately after the course of reflection on the fruit of arahantship, thus realizing the highest and passing away nearly at the same time. " > Herman > 19463 From: Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 3:33pm Subject: Way 47, Comm, Clear Comprehension "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprerhension, p. 60 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension 1. Clear comprehension in going forwards and backwards. After explaining body-contemplation in the form of the meditation on the four modes of deportment, the Master said, "And further," to explain body-contemplation by way of the four kinds of clear comprehension [catu sampajañña]. [Tika] One who is clearly comprehending [sampajano] is one who knows according to every way, intensively, or (item by item) in a detailed way [samantato pakarehi pakattham va savisesam janati]. Clear comprehension [sampajaññam] is the state of that one. It is likewise the knowledge of that one [tassa bhavo sampajaññam. Tatha pavatta ñanam]. Abhikkante patikkante = "In going forwards (and) in going backwards." Here, the meaning is as follows: -- Going forwards is called going. Going backwards is called turning back. Both these are to be found in all the four modes of deportment. [Tika] Going, here, is going after turning back (returning) and going after not turning back (going straight). Turning back is the bare fact of turning back. This dyad is only mutually supported action [gamanañcettha nivattetva anivatteva ca gamanam. Nivattanam pana nivatti mattameva. Aññamaññamupadana kriya mattañ-cetam dvatayam]. First, in going, carrying the body to a position in front -- bringing the body along -- is called going forwards. Turning back -- returning thence -- is called turning back. And in standing, one just standing and bending the body to a position in front does what is called going forwards, and one bending away behind -- drawing back -- does what is called going backwards. In sitting down, one sitting and moving on -- creeping on, sliding on -- to front portion comprising the frame and so forth of the seat, i.e., chair, stool or similar thing, does going forwards; and one moving away -- sliding back -- to the parts comprising the frame and so forth at the back of the chair or stool does what is called turning back. In lying down too the explanation is to be done according to the method stated above. 19464 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 2:52pm Subject: Christine, negative about women Dear Christine, when we monks study the sutras, this is one of the first ones we read. This days we do not talk much because the way that equal women rights are about. For examples, when I was not allowed to keep my three female Bulldogs I asked why, I was thinking that they will answer that the reason was that a monk should not have possessions. Well I was wrong, the reason was that they are females and they bleed, and they are impure. How studid. I left that Temple and moved to Canberra where I have my own temple with my three beautiful bulldogs, Olivia, Perla and Alicia. Metta . Ven. Yanatharo 19465 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 8:42pm Subject: re: another lurker Hi, Sarah, It would seem I've always stumbled into and away from 'Buddhism' through a lot of dumb luck and misunderstanding. The last time would be about three years ago, when I started chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo... without the drums! The words aren't really nonsense, btw... or maybe they are... depends on one's point of view even after they're translated / explained. Not being defensive here, just laughing with you. Not too long ago, the words 'sabbe dhamma anatta' just to pick a few, were nonsense to me. Come to think of it, 'living in the past' just took on new meaning to me yesterday when I was thinking about how I live in a world of concepts and don't realize that the things I'm still taking for real are already gone, leaving me to my daydreams and sleepwalking. It's not like I hadn't read it 1000 times before, just that it clicked a little better. Don't remember what I was reading about when I first came across the word 'abhidhamma' a year or so ago, but that has been my biggest interest ever since. I like to think that this is the Buddhism I read about at 14 that was so far over my head, but inspired me to take refuge... thinking I was the only Buddhist in Alaska at the time. Before that, Buddhism was a children's book of stories from one of the Mahayana sutras (Lotus) that I read when I was 7. I still don't understand all of those. I'm a reader, but not an intellectual. I am pretty good at reading things my own way and taking that for truth and rather slow at figuring out I'm wrong. As to this particular list, I have to thank Betty for suggesting that I join. I've lived in Omak, Washington USA now for a little over 2 years. A couple of Christian preachers told me about the Buddhist meditation group in town here after they stopped by to welcome Mom and I to town and invite us to church. As a rule, I'm pretty quiet, but abhidhamma might be something I can learn to talk about. Hope that's a better introduction for you. peace, connie 19466 From: a_doc99 Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 8:44pm Subject: Re: Where is the mind? Dear Htoo Naing, Thank you for your explanation and signing the guessbook at my website www.wakeupsmart.com NOw I'm interesting in "where is the mind?" because American scientists try to find connection between mind and body. JUst a few weeks ago, Time magazine of Jan 20, 2003 (Or you can go http://www.time.com/time/magazine/0,9263,1101030120,00.html ) had special issue about Mind and Body. Me as a born Buddhist from Thailand. I remember I did read a Buddhist book that mentiond the exact locantion of mind (a specific place in brain) and the way that mind connects to other 5 senses. So I want to know more and post in this group the question. Also just a few day I went to http://origin.dailynews.lk/2002/08/21/fea09.html It said mind is at the limbic system, which the Buddha has referred to as the mind organ. I still try to find more info about where the mind is, especially what the Buddha really taught. Maybe I will find in Abhidhamma Pitaka. Anyone knows more about this, please let me know. Thank you A (my nick name) www.wakeupsmart.com > Dear Friend, > > Where the mind is a difficult question to answer if one is trying to > explain from scientific point of view. > > Brain is NOT the mind and mind does not exist in the brain.The brain > may be assumed as work place for the mind but not exactly. > > Mind has many many associated factors.It has the characteristic of > knowing of all senses including thoughts and ideas.As it is not a > physical one,no one can find it.But its existance can be aware of. > > Find yourself the mind and if you still have problems please do not > hesitate to contact me. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > 19467 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 9:26pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Dear Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao " wrote: The five khandhas are impermanent, dukkha, not self. They are to be seen as they actually are with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. They are not what I am. They are not my self." KKT: I know that this is your favorite quote since I've read it from you so many times on this list and on the [dhamma-list] I have a question to ask you: We use words to communicate therefore a word must have a common meaning for everybody in order to be understood by all. A word would refer to either: __a concrete object (a table, a chair...) __a sensation (hot, cold...) __a feeling (love, hate, anger...) __an ABSTRACT CONCEPT (God, Creator, Atman, Self...) So when you << see for yourself with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. They are not what I am. They are not my self." >> what are for you these << mine >> << I >> << my self >> ? Are they concrete objects or sensations or feelings or abstract concepts? Please don't think that I want to put a difficult question to you. I am just curious. Thanks. Best wishes, KKT 19468 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Hi KKT, Let me question you thus: Is a concrete object permanent or impermanent? Is what is impermanent easeful or unsatisfactory? Is what is impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change fit to be seen thus: "This is mine. This is what I am. This is my self"? And: Is a sensation permanent or impermanent? Is a feeling permanent or impermanent? Is an abstract concept permanent or impermanent? If you want to know what the terms "I", "mine", "my self" mean, please check a dictionary such as http://www.webster.com/ Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000 " wrote: > Dear Victor, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao > " wrote: > > > > The five khandhas are impermanent, dukkha, not self. They are to be > seen as they actually are with right discernment thus: "They are not > mine. They are not what I am. They are not my self." > > > > > KKT: I know that this is your > favorite quote since I've read it > from you so many times on this list > and on the [dhamma-list] > > I have a question to ask you: > > We use words to communicate > therefore a word must have > a common meaning for everybody > in order to be understood by all. > > A word would refer to either: > > __a concrete object (a table, a chair...) > __a sensation (hot, cold...) > __a feeling (love, hate, anger...) > __an ABSTRACT CONCEPT (God, Creator, Atman, Self...) > > > So when you << see for yourself > with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. > They are not what I am. They are not my self." >> > what are for you these << mine >> << I >> << my self >> ? > > Are they concrete objects or sensations > or feelings or abstract concepts? > > > Please don't think that I want > to put a difficult question to you. > > I am just curious. Thanks. > > > Best wishes, > > > KKT 19469 From: James Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:58pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > Through my reading I have come across some words attributed to the > Buddha that I find quite disturbing: > Hi Christine, I just had to respond to this post. This is also an issue that used to make my blood boil! I also used to think that the Lord Buddha could not be someone void of defilements if he had such a view of women. But then I did some research into defilements and I realized that I held wrong view about defilements…therefore, I held wrong view about these statements and positions of the Buddha. I saw defilements as self, as something hard-wired, however they are not. If not committed, the defilements don't exist; that is why sila and meditation practice is so important…the karma stream is purified the minute that unwholesome thoughts and actions are ceased. So, keeping this in mind, I believe the Buddha was not talking about women of the past or women of the future, he was only talking about the women of his time period. Unfortunately, he didn't explain why the women of his time period were so shallow, overly sensual, unintelligent, and opportunistic: SOCIETY MADE THEM THAT WAY! It was a type of self-fulfilling prophecy. View women as shallow, overly sensual, unintelligent, and opportunistic and they will be all those things. View women as equal to men and they will become that also. What is the cause of women being subjugated by men? Well, it isn't, regardless of what the Buddha implies or the Bible states outright, the natural order of things. It is because men who subjugate women are insecure of their masculinity. What is the sure way to prove that you are a man? Dominate women! Take for example recent studies into this phenomenon: "Men in many cultures strive daily to prove to themselves and others that they qualify for inclusion in the esteemed category of "male." The fear accompanying this insecurity derives in part from a gendered system that assigns power and status to that which is male and denigrates or subordinates that which is female. To be "not male," is to be reduced to the status of woman, or, worse, to be "gay". A growing number of theorists have begun to argue that violence against women is partly fueled by men's fundamental insecurity over their masculinity (Lancaster, 1992; Stoltenberg, 1989; Segal, 1990). To say that men are insecure does not in anyway condone their coercive conduct, but it can help us understand the phenomenon and suggest avenues for intervention." http://www.wicked-envy.com/mythic_male.htm In defense of the Lord Buddha, he did see this phenomenon in the individual and recommended the course of action. He taught that women needed to drop their feminine characteristics and not attach to them and that men needed to drop their masculine characteristics and not attach to them, as described in the Sannoga Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an07-048.html Actually, he equated masculinity and femininity, and its cultivation in the individual, with bondage. In conclusion, I believe the Buddha wasn't making a qualification about women with these statements; he was simply being a pragmatist. After all, he did not speak of his bhikkuni in such unflattering ways. The Buddha was simply being very blunt about what he saw, even though it appeared as if his speech was harsh and unfair. Hmmmm… seems familiar to me somehow. ;-) Metta, James 19470 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 11:02pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Dear Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao " wrote: Hi KKT, < snip > If you want to know what the terms "I", "mine", "my self" mean, please check a dictionary such as http://www.webster.com/ Regards, Victor KKT: I don't ask the meaning of these terms in a dictionary. I ask the meaning of these terms in << Victor's mind >> When you << see for yourself with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. They are not what I am. They are not my self." >> it supposes you must have some idea about what they refer to ? __A concrete object, a sensation, a feeling, an abstract concept? Peace, KKT 19471 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 11:33pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine, I know this is not your point, but femininity is no bar to progress on the Path: "There was the nun Soma who, on being asked how she, a mere woman, could possibly hope to achieve, calmly replied; "In this doctrine and discipline, the matter of sex does not arise." (Samyuttanikaya: Sagathavagga: Bhikkhuni samyuta.)" (David Maurice: What the Buddha Really Taught.) Rebirth as man or woman, rich or poor, seems to be related to kamma, whereas ability to follow the Middle Way would seem to be a matter of accumulations. The question you ask is, why should femininity be seen as a less wholesome karmic consequence than masculinity? I don't know, sorry. But even if females are somehow inferior (I said "IF" :-)), it wouldn't be the Buddha's fault -- he didn't make the rules. ---------- > A simple 'that's the way this society is Ananda, boys are brought up differently to girls' would have sufficed. > ---------- What would cause a being to be reborn as a female in a society where females are severely discriminated against? My guess is; that being's own discriminatory behaviour in past lives.(?) In matriarchal societies, masculinity would be the undesirable consequence. (I'm not sure about this -- just guessing.) ------------ > Surprising to describe one person in such a way, let alone to then generalise and speak of a 'just a woman's wit', as if such a thing came in a 'female package' > ------------ Generally speaking, all worldlings get a bad press in the suttas. Stupid, blind prejudice can't possibly be behind it to any degree whatsoever -- especially not where Ananda, your favourite disciple, is concerned :-) Kind regards Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > Through my reading I have come across some words attributed to the > Buddha that I find quite disturbing: > > 19472 From: Diny@ Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 0:18am Subject: New Member - hello to you all - "May all beings be happy" Hi All Dhamma Brothers and Sisters, I am Dinesh from India, got this Group from Net , I am into Vipassana since 1993 First camp at Igatpuri India. Since then I am practising. Though My Job is having tons of deadlines as I am in Sofware field, find time for practising Vipassana. I am keeping my Intro mail Short , if its big my applogies. Kind regards and Metta to all. -Dinesh 19473 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Hi KKT & All, I meant to respond to a couple of your posts before: In one(19047, besides pushing your luck with citations(!), you mentioned: wrote: > > Mano-vijnana (Conscious Mind or 6th Consciousness) + > Manas (Subconscious Mind or 7th Consciousness) + > Alaya-vijnana (Storehouse Consciousness or 8th Consciousness) It is believed that at the death of > a person, the first 6 Consciousnesses > are destroyed but Manas and Alaya > continue to pass to the next rebirth. > > I have noticed that small babies of > many months have already their ego. > This is the proof of Manas going > from one life to the next one :-)) .... I’d like you to review the following posts on this topic (by myself and Suan)as discussed before whether there is any basis from the pali canon to support this meaning of alaya-vijnana as storehouse consciousness: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11878.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11882.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11911.html ..... Let me give just a few breif extracts for those who want life simple: Sarah:> Citta, vi~n~nana and mano =========================== >These all refer to consciousness in different contexts. In the Atthasalini transl (PTS p 185f) we read about citta being used to refer to the ‘variegated nature’ of consciousness, mano being used to stress the knowing of the ‘measure’ of an object and vinnana is used when referring to the khandhas. There is no ‘store-consciousness.< ..... Sarah:>I note (and have checked a few of the refs) that the second set of meanings of ‘desire’ or ‘lust’ are most common for aalaya and aalayaraama and as used in AN. I also note that in PED, it doesn’t mention aalayavi~n~naa.na at all. I’ve now located the passage referred to in AN to support the suggestion in the article by Dr Rahula that alaya is an ‘aspect of the alayavinnana’ referring to citta which is ‘luminous by nature’ and so on and that which is taken as self. B.bodhi’s translation (AN 4s, 78 ‘Four Wonderful Things’, p.109 in Anthology) reads: "People generally find pleasure in attachments, take delight in attachments and enjoy attachments. but when the dhamma of non-attachment is taught by the Tathagata, people wish to listen to it, give ear and try to understand it. this is the first wonderful and marvellous thing that appears on the manifestation of a Tathagata, an Arahant, a Fully Enlightened One. (Pali Anguttaranikaya (A II, p.131): Alayarama bhikkhave paja alayarata alayasammudita, sa Tathagatena analaye dhamme desiyamane sussuyati sotam odahati annacittam upattapeti. Tathagatassa bhikkhave arahato sammasambuddhassa patubhava ayam pathamo acchariyo abbhuto dhammo patubhavati.) ***** These meanings of aalaya conform with the common meaning given above, i.e ‘attachment,desire, craving, lust’. There is no suggestion of citta or vinnana or luminous or soul or self. As I mentioned before, I see no suggestion of ‘alaya’ in the Pali Canon referring to any store consciousness either in any aspect. ..... Sarah>In summary, when Dr Rahula suggests the ‘original idea of alayavijnana was already there in the pali Canon of the Theravada’, with all due respect, with regard to meanings like citta, store consciousness, luminosity and so on, I think this is a real ‘stretch’.< ***** KKT, I believe there have always been and always will be attempts to introduce the idea of some ego, self, subconscious mind or store that is carried on from life to life. According to the Pali canon, all conditioned phenomena arise and fall away immediately. Nothing lasts or is ‘passed on’. By understanding more about conditions we can see how nothing occurs randomly as you suggested in another post when you were discussing why panna (understanding) might arise in one worldling and not another. It’s like asking why does lobha and not dosa arise at this moment. So many conditions interconnect to produce the lobha just as it is right now. These will include the visible object seen, the accumulation or tendency to lobha and so on. Nothing occurs by chance. I liked a comment Larry made on the destiny, fate thread when he said to you: Larry:"There is no control and no destiny because there is no self. "No control" and "no doer" mean exactly the same as anatta. There is no difference." I also liked this extract from Way 41 on the meaning of ‘independence’: "Anissito ca viharati = "And he lives independent." He lives emancipated from dependence on craving and wrong views. [T] With these words is stated the direct opposition of this meditation to the laying hold on craving and wrong views. Na ca kiñci loke upadiyati = "And clings to naught in the world." In regard to no visible shape... or consciousness, does he think: this is my soul; or this belongs to my soul." ***** When the aggregates or elements are seen as they are as conditioned phenomena that arise and pass away completely, there is no confusion with concepts, no clinging to any idea of self or store-house and no idea about free-will or determinism either. Let me finish by quoting a neat summary on elements -- and the lack of control over these -- from the preface (the easiest to read section by Thein Nyun) to the PTS "Discourse on Elements" (Dhatu-Katha), the 3rd book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka: "The Elements An element is defined as that which bears its own intrinsic nature...... The elements are not permanently present. They arise to exhibit their own characteristic natures and perform their own characteristic functions when the proper conditions are satisfied, and they cease after their span of duration. Thus no being has any control over the arising and ceasing of the elements and they are not at his mercy or will however mighty and powerful he may be. In other words, the elements have no regard for anyone, show no favour to anyone and do not accede to the wishes of anyone. They are entirely dependent on conditions. For example, when the four conditions: a visible object, the sense of sight, light and attention, ae present, the eye-consciousness element arises. No power can prevent this element from arising when these conditions are present or cause it to arise when one of them is absent." ***** KKT, I've jumped around a bit with comments from various posts of yours. I apologise for any confusion or taking any of these out of context. I greatly appreciate your interest and efforts to become more familiar with the Pali canon and appreciate your support here. As I mentioned to someone else, we all have our challenges to ‘conform’;-) Sarah ======= 19474 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 2:00am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Ken, The last thing I want is a conflict with you, but I do have a bone to pick. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau " wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > What would cause a being to be reborn as a female in a society where > females are severely discriminated against? My guess is; that > being's own discriminatory behaviour in past lives.(?) > > This sounds like blaming the victim, which is the supreme method for the oppression of minorities. I guess the Jews have been regularly persecuted since 0 AD because they killed Christ would be a similar statement. That you qualify your statement as a guess mitigates slightly, but only very slightly :-). Social justice cannot coexist with superstitious notions of causality. To the extent that superstitious notions of causality like the above are entertained, there is tacit acquiescence to the status quo. Appeals to non-existent cosmic forces of justice do not change a thing. If we had someone called Buddha posting the sort of stuff that Christine quoted he would already have been evicted from here. Herman 19475 From: Andrew Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > Through my reading I have come across some words attributed to the > Buddha that I find quite disturbing: > Hi Christine I do understand your sentiments here. I actually know some people who quite despise Buddhism because of such negative quotes about women. I have a book called "The Historical Buddha" by a German scholar/diplomat called HW Schumann. He spent much of his life in India and wrote quite a few books on Buddhism. He does not accept that Buddha was a misogynist and gives a number of very positive quotations of the Buddha on women (after noting the nasty quotations). So there are positive and negative statements - what's going on here? Schumann gives quite a plausible explanation from the historian's viewpoint. Just one little quote from Schumann: "All the accounts in the Pali Canon of meetings of the Buddha with women prove that he regarded them as the equals of men. The fact that there were quarrelsome and bad women, and that women could entice bhikkhus away from the path, did not prevent him from admitting that women have a high capacity for understanding, and that many of them surpass men in warmth of heart and self-sacrifice." This, he argues, is why there were lots of female lay followers. There is more, but I am tired ... Give Rusty a pat from me and have a great evening! Andrew 19476 From: Andrew Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 2:20am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > > If we had someone called Buddha posting the sort of stuff that > Christine quoted he would already have been evicted from here. > Herman That just shows what a hard task it is to moderate a group like this. Bouquets to Sarah and Jon for risking making such a mistake! Andrew 19477 From: Diny@ Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Andrew, Managing a group is no less doubt Hard Task. But then even "Budhha" faced This types of Query in his life Does that mean that he left his teaching. The Show must go on and on... May All beings be happy. regards, -Dinesh --- "Andrew " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " > wrote: > > > > If we had someone called Buddha posting the sort of stuff that > > Christine quoted he would already have been evicted from here. > > > > Herman > That just shows what a hard task it is to moderate a group like this. > Bouquets to Sarah and Jon for risking making such a mistake! > Andrew > > > > > > > 19478 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 3:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi there Dinesh and Andrew, It is no doubt also very difficult to be a Buddha. Everybody wants one, preferably in their own image :-), but the gist of his message is not all that palatable once you start to chew on it. We are all to ready to hitch a saviour in front of our cart, without realising that a true saviour always wields a very sharp axe, and should we invite him/her to save us from our predicament, we must expect some chopping noises from around the roots of our beliefs. What to do? Maintain him as your Buddha, or throw him off the pedestal you put him on? Do we dare to walk into the void on our own? It is a moot point really. Welcome Dinesh, ( I am a network engineer. By Friday afternoon I really hate computers :-) ) and welcome back James. Herman PS I'm pretty sure there's the odd sotapanna out there still smarting from a stern talking to from Mrs. Abbott :-) :-) :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Diny@" wrote: > Andrew, > > Managing a group is no less doubt Hard Task. > But then even "Budhha" faced This types of Query in his life > Does that mean that he left his teaching. > The Show must go on and on... > May All beings be happy. > regards, > -Dinesh > > --- "Andrew " wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " > > wrote: > > > > > > If we had someone called Buddha posting the sort of stuff that > > > Christine quoted he would already have been evicted from here. > > > > > > > Herman > > That just shows what a hard task it is to moderate a group like this. > > Bouquets to Sarah and Jon for risking making such a mistake! > > Andrew 19479 From: Diny@ Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Well Egberdina, thanks for welcome. I can't hate computers on friday also as Saturday is working day for me here. Though I am not a scholar in Buddhisim. So I wont be in Debate about teachings of Buddha. But one thing I know about his Teachings is "Vipassana" which can be used by own and all for the well being. Metta to all. regards, -Dinesh --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi there Dinesh and Andrew, > > It is no doubt also very difficult to be a Buddha. Everybody wants > one, preferably in their own image :-), but the gist of his message > is not all that palatable once you start to chew on it. We are all to > ready to hitch a saviour in front of our cart, without realising that > a true saviour always wields a very sharp axe, and should we invite > him/her to save us from our predicament, we must expect some chopping > noises from around the roots of our beliefs. > > What to do? Maintain him as your Buddha, or throw him off the > pedestal you put him on? Do we dare to walk into the void on our own? > It is a moot point really. > > Welcome Dinesh, ( I am a network engineer. By Friday afternoon I > really hate computers :-) ) and welcome back James. > > > Herman > PS I'm pretty sure there's the odd sotapanna out there still smarting > from a stern talking to from Mrs. Abbott :-) :-) :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Diny@" > wrote: > > Andrew, > > > > Managing a group is no less doubt Hard Task. > > But then even "Budhha" faced This types of Query in his life > > Does that mean that he left his teaching. > > The Show must go on and on... > > May All beings be happy. > > regards, > > -Dinesh > > > > --- "Andrew " wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina > " > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > If we had someone called Buddha posting the sort of stuff that > > > > Christine quoted he would already have been evicted from here. > > > > > > > > > > Herman > > > That just shows what a hard task it is to moderate a group like > this. > > > Bouquets to Sarah and Jon for risking making such a mistake! > > > Andrew 19480 From: Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Victor (and KKT) - In a message dated 2/7/03 1:24:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi KKT, > > Let me question you thus: > > Is a concrete object permanent or impermanent? > > Is what is impermanent easeful or unsatisfactory? > > Is what is impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change fit to be > seen thus: "This is mine. This is what I am. This is my self"? > > And: > > Is a sensation permanent or impermanent? > > Is a feeling permanent or impermanent? > > Is an abstract concept permanent or impermanent? > > If you want to know what the terms "I", "mine", "my self" mean, > please check a dictionary such as http://www.webster.com/ ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That dictionary gives "the one who is speaking or writing" as the meaning for ' I '. (Does that presume the existence of such a "one"?) The issue is whether when one uses the word ' I ' the fact of using the word itself is meant to literally imply the existence of some entity called " I " or, instead, is simply engaging in a manner of speaking. (When I say "I say" I do not presume some entity called " I ", and I am certain that Nina does not either. In fact, when Nina writes "we are only citta, cetasika and rupa," I take her use of the word 'we' to be no more a reification than the use of the word ' I ' in your oft quoted ".. this is not what I am.") --------------------------------------------------- > > Regards, > Victor > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19481 From: Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/7/03 2:34:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > What would cause a being to be reborn as a female in a society where > females are severely discriminated against? My guess is; that > being's own discriminatory behaviour in past lives.(?) > > ========================== The working out of kamma vipaka is complex, and such specualtion is to no avail, I think. One could also guess that the 10 million slaughtered by Hitler had previously been murderers themselves, and that every child killed by a drive-by shooting or by the beating inflicted by the mother's "friend," to draw from sordid headlines, is merely getting his/her just desserts. I wouldn't be satisfied making such guesses. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19482 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: another lurker Hi Connie, Many thx for coming back so promptly and with all these interesting details. A little more inserted: --- connie wrote: > Hi, Sarah, > It would seem I've always stumbled into and away from 'Buddhism' through > a lot of dumb luck and misunderstanding. The last time would be about > three years ago, when I started chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo... without > the drums! The words aren't really nonsense, btw... or maybe they > are... depends on one's point of view even after they're translated / > explained. .... I have had the experience in a Japanese Temple on Vulture's Peak in India a long time ago, chanting this and beating drums and then walking up the mountain path all at the same time (about 4 or 5am from memory)..... I liked it even tho' I had difficulty with my timing. ..... Not being defensive here, just laughing with you. Not too > long ago, the words 'sabbe dhamma anatta' just to pick a few, were > nonsense to me. Come to think of it, 'living in the past' just took on > new meaning to me yesterday when I was thinking about how I live in a > world of concepts and don't realize that the things I'm still taking for > real are already gone, leaving me to my daydreams and sleepwalking. > It's not like I hadn't read it 1000 times before, just that it clicked a > little better. ..... Good comments to hear, Connie....sometimes we do need to hear the truth a few 1000 times, don't we? ..... > Don't remember what I was reading about when I first came across the > word 'abhidhamma' a year or so ago, but that has been my biggest > interest ever since. I like to think that this is the Buddhism I read > about at 14 that was so far over my head, but inspired me to take > refuge... thinking I was the only Buddhist in Alaska at the time. ..... Interesting. Sometimes I've also had that experience of thinking I've put something aside because it's 'over my head' and then reflecting on a little snippet or two. Actually, it was like that with the text on Elements from the Abhidhamma today.....all 'over my head' but a few comments from the preface and some info I was looking at in a chart were giving me pause for reflection. ..... > Before that, Buddhism was a children's book of stories from one of the > Mahayana sutras (Lotus) that I read when I was 7. I still don't > understand all of those. > I'm a reader, but not an intellectual. I am pretty good at reading > things my own way and taking that for truth and rather slow at figuring > out I'm wrong. ..... ;-) ..... > As to this particular list, I have to thank Betty for suggesting that I > join. > I've lived in Omak, Washington USA now for a little over 2 years. A > couple of Christian preachers told me about the Buddhist meditation > group in town here after they stopped by to welcome Mom and I to town > and invite us to church. ..... Perhaps you'll also encourage Betty to write more, though I know she's always got many projects. I don't know if that is Washington DC where a couple of others live. Sounds like the Christian preachers are v.helpful. ..... > As a rule, I'm pretty quiet, but abhidhamma might be something I can > learn to talk about. > Hope that's a better introduction for you. ..... that's great and yes, I hope we hear plenty from you. Metta, Sarah p.s let us know how the "rotting corpse" meditation sessions go;-) ====== 19483 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine, Just to really stir your very active pot further , I think I might consider these harsh sounding words about women by the Buddha as 'positive aspects of the teachings'. Positive, in the sense of giving good reminders. Tough medicine for the right people at the right time. Just a quick note to add on your first reference: wrote: > >"What is > the reason, Lord, what is the cause that womenfolk do not preside in > a court of justice,' nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a > foreign* country ?" > "Ananda, a woman is given to anger. Ananda, woman > is envious. Ananda, a woman is greedy. Ananda, woman is poor in > wisdom. This is the reason, Ananda, this is the cause, why women-folk > do not preside in a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, > nor go to a foreign country." (Anguttara Nikaya II Chapter VIII PTS) ..... I note in the PTS, they give a footnote for “not reach the essence of the deed” which is used instead of foreign country. According to the commentary, this refers to “in search of wealth”. Perhaps it is ‘descriptive’ of the group of women being referred to, i.e ‘some’ women, perhaps. It’s difficult to read one short sutta in isolation of any commentary notes or other suttas. For example, a little later on in AN, still bk of 4s, (197), we read a sutta I find most helpful about women and when I read the ones you just quoted, I read them in the context of more detailed ones like this: Queen Mallika asks “what is the cause and reason why some women here are ugly, ill formed, unsightly, and also poor, destitute, with little wealth, with little influence ? and what is the cause and reason why some women here are ugly...but rich, with great wealth and property, with great influence?...beautiful......with little influence?....beautiful....rich.....with great influence? The Buddha explains that some women are “irascible..irritable....loses her temper.....anger, hatred and resentent....................When she is reborn she is ugly, ill formed, unsightly, and also poor, destitute, with little wealth, with little influence.” Then it goes through the various permutations and of course the last one who never displays anger, who is generous, unenvious and so on is reborn beautiful, rich and with great influence. Of course, we all experience aspects of all the combinations, but set out in these ways, helps us to really appreciate the danger of akusala and the necessity for kusala. We can test out even now the effects of anger on the face and in terms of influence and so on. Mallika then vows to never be irritable, angry or upset, to be generous and so on. Of course it’s easier to read a ‘complete’ sutta like this one where the ‘happy ending’ is more apparent, but to be honest, I find it easy to relate to the reminders in the more controversial ones as well. It’s like being reminded that there’s fire on one’s head and a pointing out of the dangers of kilesa in this world and the next.It’s not fashionable to look at kamma and other ‘internal’ conditions, but I don’t believe that looking at the “oppressive structure of a society” will ever give us the real answers to our 'real' problems. I think there are many, many more suttas about foolish men and bhikkhus than there are about women. Usually when bhikkhus are being advised to ignore women or stay away (see your last quote) it is more a reflection on the weakness of men than anything else. This is the reason for so many of the rules. The Vinaya reads like a manual on staying away from temptation, set out after one example after another of a bhikkhu’s foolishness. It’s hard, I know, to appreciate these quotes you gave without a full context. I just smile and think to myself, ‘yes, that sounds familiar’;-). I realise when I read my comments here how far I’ve come from my young uni feminist days and how influenced I’ve been by my respect and confidence in the Teachings. If something sounds strange to me, I immediately assume that either my understanding is too weak or there’s a problem in the translation or the commentary notes are needed. I never consider that the Teachings only applied to a certain time or that the Buddha could have been wrong though I’m sure I might have wondered about all this before. Looking forward to your responses to the smorgasbord of replies you’ve received, beginning with Ven. Yanatharo’s;-) Sorry, not to be more help. Metta, Sarah ====== 19484 From: James Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 6:00am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau " wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > I know this is not your point, but femininity is no bar to progress > on the Path: > Rebirth as man or woman, rich or poor, seems to be related to kamma, > whereas ability to follow the Middle Way would seem to be a matter of > accumulations. > > The question you ask is, why should femininity be seen as a less > wholesome karmic consequence than masculinity? I don't know, sorry. > But even if females are somehow inferior (I said "IF" :-)), it > wouldn't be the Buddha's fault -- he didn't make the rules. > > What would cause a being to be reborn as a female in a society where > females are severely discriminated against? My guess is; that > being's own discriminatory behaviour in past lives.(?) > > In matriarchal societies, masculinity would be the undesirable > consequence. (I'm not sure about this -- just guessing.) Hi Ken, This could be, but not very likely. After all, just being born human is very rare and of great blessing. Perhaps it is the opposite of what you suggest. Perhaps women born into a submissive situation are being offered an extrodinary opportunity because of past good deeds. After all, the Buddha specifically said that he was born into certain hardships, over countless lives, so that he could cultivate the perfections. Perhaps women are the future Buddhas or current Buddhas of today, using their experience as women to cultivate the 10 perfections of generosity (dana), morality (sila), renunciation (nekkhamma), wisdom (panna), energy (viriya), patience (khanti), truthfulness (sacca), determination (adhitthana), loving-kindness (metta), and equanimity (upekkha). Something to consider...I'm not any more sure than you are, but prefer to give women the benefit of the doubt. Metta, James 19485 From: Nantawat Sitdhiraksa Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 6:21am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Dear Nina and all, I really like your statement, " Of course, really our defilements are our enemy, not another person". I just like to share my feeling rgd. the issue of abhidhamma. In Thailand, there are monks and laypersons who doubt about the authenticity of the abhidhamma, suttanta, and even vinaya. I at times ask myself, how can I prove that there are next lives or previous lives. Do I have a blind faith in the teaching of the Buddha? What can I prove, and how can I prove it ?? You mentioned purima tanha, craving in previous lives, conditions our lives in a present moment. My idea now is, not only craving from our previous lives, but also avijja, without the Buddha teaching, will have no end. Previous lobha, dosa, and moha condition the current citta somehow, directly and indirectly. Rgd. abhidhamma, suttanta, vinaya, or the tipitaka, to me personally, it's just a name. The Buddha taught us about reality, not only here and now(present) but also there and then (past, present, and future). The council categorized the teaching in to 1,or 2, or 3 sections(depends on how one defines it), just for a practical manner of organizing. Reality is reality. To me there is teaching about reality (in another word, dhamma) in all the 3 baskets. There is dhamma, or if one prefers to call, abhidhamma in vinaya, and suttanta. There is vinaya(dhamma) in suttanta, and abhidhamma. And, there is also suttanta(dhamma) in vinaya, and abhidhamma. I question all the 3 baskets. I mean when I read or listen, with my little understanding, I ask, question, or reflect of what I just read or listened. Personally, I have a harder time with vinaya and suttanta, esp. the jataka. Because I am always carried away by the story. For example, why there are elephants on a heavenly plane, why the country in the jataka is always ruled by a king (not a Prime Minister or a President), why the city in the jataka is always located in a tropical climate, the snow is not mentioned much in the tipitaka. A.Sujin always reminds us that the tipitaka is not about a story, abhidhamma is not something just to read, recite, and memorize. Knowing the name of dhamma is not equal to seeing dhamma. Understanding the story in suttanta or vinaya, does not mean understanding dhamma. Have to run. Cordially, Num 19486 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Herman --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Jon, ... <> Well, I wouldn't want to argue with this as a description of the conventional view that some/many people hold. Given the diversity of ways of seeing the world, however, I don't think we can say there is only a single conventional view of things. So in my earlier message I should have said that regarding the act of seeing as a single bi-polar event is *a* conventional view. <<(Abhidhamma/Visudh does not allow for "hear blue" which does not accord with observation)>> Not sure that I follow you on this one, so I'd better pass :-)) <> Seeing consciousness and visible object are 2 of the dhammas (fundamental phenomena) that comprise what we perceive as being the act of seeing. Now, although these dhammas are present together, they remain separate and discrete and different in their essence from each other and all other dhammas, according to my reading of the teachings. Thus, although seeing never arises without visible object, nevertheless it would be correct to say that there is no visible object in seeing consciousness, and no seeing consciousness in visible object. <> As to there being 'no object', awareness experiences a presently arisen dhamma (say, seeing consciusness) directly so that it can be seen more truly as it actually is. But this does not mean that another presently arisen dhamma (visible object) is in any way less apparent. As long as there is seeing, there is always visible object. In any event, the unique characteristic and function of seeing consciousness is the fact that it experiences visible object, and it is by this characteristic that seeing is known by panna. As panna becomes more and more developed, this unique characteristic is seen more clearly. <> Pertinent questions, Herman :-)). I do hope that what I've said makes sense. Jon <> I'm impressed at your knowledge of what's going on here in Hong Kong, Herman. This is a very hot topic right now. It is known here as the 'Article 23 Bill', because it is a law that Hong Kong is required to enact under Article No 23 of the Basic Law, Hong Kong's so-called mini-constitution (but in fact enacted by Beijing). The drafting is being done by a colleague of mine. I'm sorry to say that I'm not involved, since it would be an interesting one to be working on from a professional (drafting) point of view. My present items are all rather routine :-( . 19487 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 8:16am Subject: Re: Right Concentration Hi RobertK, I finally found one of your old posts on momentary concentration! It's such a surprise! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/4068 > There can be no direct insight- even for the sukkha vipassaka at > any stage of the path - including well before sotapanna unless > there is sammasamadhi: the factor of wisdom needs support from > saati and samadhi. But this samadhi arises together with > sammaditthi and other factors of the eightfactored path. In the > case of the sukkhavipassaka the sammasamadhi is sometimes > referred to as khanika-samadhi (momentary samadhi) as it only > lasts during the moments of insight into whatever paramattha > dhammas are being insighted. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19488 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine, Sad, indeed it's sad. But though sad, in what way can I accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing? > "Ananda, a woman is given to anger. Ananda, woman > is envious. Ananda, a woman is greedy. Ananda, woman is poor in > wisdom. This is the reason, Ananda, this is the cause, why women- folk > do not preside in a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, > nor go to a foreign country." (Anguttara Nikaya II Chapter VIII PTS) There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply stating a fact that any woman who is such could not do the above things. The Buddha was simply not concerned about mundane things such as equal rights for women in his days. This is not the concern of the Dhamma. The majority of women in his days are probably not educated. For a fact, my mother is uneducated. She can't be a judge. She has no occupation; she's a housewife, I don't consider this to be an occupation. Does she know how to get around from east to west on a small island like Singapore on her own? Nay. Much less go to a foreign country. Christine, you have to look both ways. And yes, my mother can be angry, can be envious, and can be greedy. I am not joking with you, simply because I have a mother who is like that. > And again, he spoke of Migasala who had enquired of Ananda about > Kamma as: "Just a foolish, witless female woman, with just a woman's > wit" (Anguttara Nikaya Chapter VIII PTS) It is no surprise to me that all Buddhas are male. As are the two Chief Disciples of any Buddha. How you thought about that? Why there aren't any female Buddha? I think the Buddha was simply stating a fact that women in general have less wit than men. And this is so true in society when men (used to ?) dominate the women. > 'And what, Master Gotama, is a woman's aim?" > "A man, O brahmin, is a woman's aim, her quest is for adornments, her > mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal > is domination." ( Anguttara Nikaya VI.52) There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply making a plain observation of women in the days of his society. His message was addressed to a "brahmin" of the ancient days. A portion of the above statement rings true even for modern society (and think about the Chinese's preference for sons), don't you think so? > "Monks, there are these five disadvatages in a black snake. What > five? It is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays > friends. Even so, monks, there are these five disadvantages in a > woman. What five? She is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and > betrays friends. These are the five. (Anguttara Nikaya III) There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply stating a fact that "some women" are like that. He says "in a woman", not "in any woman". He was simply giving a precautionary warning to the monks. > "Monks, womenfolk end their life unsated and unreplete with two > things, What two? Sexual intercourse and childbirth. These are the > two things." There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply stating a fact that can be very observable even till today. Just look at India, China, Africa, Middle East. Just look at the population explosion. I prefer to interpret "womenfolk" as "the majority". > Ananda: 'How are we to conduct ourselves, Lord, with regard to > womankind?' The Buddha: 'As not seeing them, Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if > we should see them, what are we to do"' The Buddha: 'No talking, > Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if they should speak to us, Lord what are we to > do?' The Buddha: 'Keep wide awake, Ananda.' (Dialogues of the Buddha > II. Paribibbana Sutta) There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. This is the practice for bikkhus. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19489 From: James Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 8:01am Subject: eight Stages of Release (vimokkha) Hi All, Perhaps nama/rupa perception is incomplete. Consider the eight Stages of Release (vimokkha): 1.Possessing form (material shape) he sees forms. 2.Not perceiving forms internally he sees forms. 3.He is intent only on the thought `it is well'. 4.Passing entirely beyond perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, not attending to perceptions of diversity, (he perceives) "space is infinite", and attains and abides in the infinity of space. 5.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of space, (he perceives) "consciousness is infinite", and attains and abides in the stage of the infinity of consciousness. 6.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of consciousness, (he perceives) "there is nothing", and attains and abides in the stage of nothingness. 7.Passing entirely beyond the stage of nothingness, he attains and abides in the stage of neither consciousness nor non-consciousness. 8.Passing entirely beyond the stage of neither consciousness nor non- consciousness, he attains and abides in the stage of cessation of perception and feeling. (Digha, ii, 111). It is from this final stage that full liberation and full knowledge (panna) is attained. Metta, James 19490 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 4:14pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Swee Boon, I think the Buddha is being very unfair to black snakes. Black snakes are black snakes, their disadvantages spring from the defilements of the observer. Women are not like black snakes, unless you perceive them that way. And when you see them that way that does not mean women become the owners of the black snake properties, the perceiver is the owner and the source of his own perceptions. Many women around the world wear veils and other garments to hide their appearance altogether. This is rationalised in many ways, including by many of the women who are so afflicted. But women wear veils not because they are sexually insatiable, but because men are sexually insatiable, and possessive as well!!! (I am speaking in general). If a man were to tell you that he has sensitive feet and needs all little rocks and debris swept from the roadway before he can walk there, you are talking to a fool. You could suggest he wears some shoes. If a man has no restraint with regards to what enters his eyes and is entertained in his mind, and says he needs the objects of his lust covered over, you are talking to a fool. You could suggest to him that the source of his defilements is his own mind. Some akusala a day keeps nibbana away. Some ignorance a day sees other parties as blameworthy. Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > > "Monks, there are these five disadvatages in a black snake. What > > five? It is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays > > friends. Even so, monks, there are these five disadvantages in a > > woman. What five? She is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful > and > > betrays friends. These are the five. (Anguttara Nikaya III) > > There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says > this. He was simply stating a fact that "some women" are like that. > He says "in a woman", not "in any woman". He was simply giving a > precautionary warning to the monks. > > > > "Monks, womenfolk end their life unsated and unreplete with two > > things, What two? Sexual intercourse and childbirth. These are the > > two things." > > There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says > this. He was simply stating a fact that can be very observable even > till today. Just look at India, China, Africa, Middle East. Just > look at the population explosion. I prefer to interpret "womenfolk" > as "the majority". > > > > Ananda: 'How are we to conduct ourselves, Lord, with regard to > > womankind?' The Buddha: 'As not seeing them, Ananda.' Ananda: 'But > if > > we should see them, what are we to do"' The Buddha: 'No talking, > > Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if they should speak to us, Lord what are we > to > > do?' The Buddha: 'Keep wide awake, Ananda.' (Dialogues of the > Buddha > > II. Paribibbana Sutta) > > There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says > this. This is the practice for bikkhus. > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19491 From: Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] eight Stages of Release (vimokkha) Hi, James - In a message dated 2/7/03 5:19:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi All, > > Perhaps nama/rupa perception is incomplete. Consider the eight > Stages of Release (vimokkha): > > 1.Possessing form (material shape) he sees forms. > 2.Not perceiving forms internally he sees forms. > 3.He is intent only on the thought `it is well'. > 4.Passing entirely beyond perceptions of form, with the > disappearance of perceptions of resistance, not attending to > perceptions of diversity, (he perceives) "space is infinite", and > attains and abides in the infinity of space. > 5.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of space, (he > perceives) "consciousness is infinite", and attains and abides in > the stage of the infinity of consciousness. > 6.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of > consciousness, (he perceives) "there is nothing", and attains and > abides in the stage of nothingness. > 7.Passing entirely beyond the stage of nothingness, he attains and > abides in the stage of neither consciousness nor non-consciousness. > 8.Passing entirely beyond the stage of neither consciousness nor non- > consciousness, he attains and abides in the stage of cessation of > perception and feeling. > (Digha, ii, 111). > > It is from this final stage that full liberation and full knowledge > (panna) is attained. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: This may be so in some cases, James, but I believe the Buddha attained complete enlightenment from the base of the 4th jhana. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19492 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 6:33pm Subject: Location (was Re: another lurker) Dear Robert, Thank you for your reply. I guess I need not fear my impending parinibbana in the foreseeable future :-) If I can ask some more questions about this subject? I thought that the example you quoted was powerfully relevant. But even one who understands by insight, as the Elder in your example, resorts to spatial understanding as he points outs his spilled intestines to the younger Bhikkhu. I want to draw in something that James has just posted regarding the steps that lead to cessation, the Eight stages of Release. In that sequence there is still a reference to space (The fourth stage and it refers to the infinity of space) when there is no longer any idea of sensation at all. Is this space also then conceptual? Thank you Herman > > Dear Herman, > I think this is an important question which delves into the > difference between concept and reality. At the moment of the actual > experience of a dhamma such as pressure or sound there is no concept > of location - this can be proven each for oneself- but immediately > after, so fast, there are concepts(with or without thinking in words) > that 'locate' the pressure or sound or feeling etc. The difference > between the conceptual process and the moment of experience can be > known too. > http://www.abhidhamma.org/CommentaryFeelings.htm#* > It is said that an Elder of Cittala Hill was sick, turning over from > side to side, again and again, and groaning with great pain. To him a > young bhikkhu said: "Venerable Sir, which part of your body is > painful?" -- "A specially painful place, indeed, there is not; as a > result of taking certain things (such as forms, sounds etc.) for > object there is the experiencing of painful feeling," replied the > Elder. " endquote * see below for rest of story. > > RobertK > **"Venerable Sir, from the time one knows that, is not bearing up > (enduring) befitting?" said the young bhikkhu. "I am bearing up, > friend," said the Elder. "Bearing up is excellent, Venerable Sir," > said the young bhikkhu. The Elder bore up. Thereafter, the aerial > humour caused injury right up to the heart. His intestines protruded > out and lay in a heap on the bed. The Elder pointed that out to the > young bhikkhu and said: "Friend, is bearing up so far befitting?" The > young bhikkhu remained silent. The Elder, having applied > concentration with energy, attained arahantship with Analytical > Knowledge and passed away into the final peace of Nibbana, in the > state of consciousness immediately after the course of reflection on > the fruit of arahantship, thus realizing the highest and passing away > nearly at the same time. " > > > 19493 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 7:15pm Subject: Re: Christine, negative about women Ven Yanatharo Bhikkhu, Sir, Thank you for telling me about Olivia, Perla and Alicia. :-) I don't know about the reasons for rules and regulations, but feel your dogs are fortunate to be cared for and protected in such a way. You may be interested in an old thread called "Can we help advance Other Sentient Beings?". (Apparently, we can!) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6275 with metta and respect, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ven.yanatharo.bikkhu" wrote: > Dear Christine, when we monks study the sutras, this is one of the first > ones we read. This days we do not talk much because the way that equal women > rights are about. For examples, when I was not allowed to keep my three > female Bulldogs I asked why, I was thinking that they will answer that the > reason was that a monk should not have possessions. Well I was wrong, the > reason was that they are females and they bleed, and they are impure. How > studid. I left that Temple and moved to Canberra where I have my own temple > with my three beautiful bulldogs, Olivia, Perla and Alicia. Metta . Ven. > Yanatharo 19494 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 7:25pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi James, and All, It doesn't make my blood boil - it just makes me sad and uncertain. I cannot understand such words being said, or such attitudes being held, by a Buddha, an Enlightened one. You say that 'the Buddha was not talking about women of the past or women of the future, he was only talking about the women of his time period'. All women may have some physical characteristics that are similar. With regard to personal characteristics like level of hygiene, intelligence, or personality traits, women are not any more identical to one another than they are to any man. I don't agree with your conclusion that only women of the Buddha's time were as described. Men and women in their basic nature and potential are no different today. One does not become less intelligent simply because of an oppressive culture. Education is not Intellligence. A tribal aboriginal who is illiterate, itinerant with few belongings, and who lives in the open mostly, is no less intelligent than a University educated westerner. She has simply applied her intelligence to learn different skills appropriate to her lifestyle. I find particularly disturbing that expressions taught by the Buddha, are sufficiently discriminatory that they may have led to him being investigated by a Commissioner under the Human Rights laws in this country. And yet these teachings have been memorised, recorded and revered for thousand of years. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: 19495 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 7:30pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi KenH, and all, You say: "Rebirth as man or woman, rich or poor, seems to be related to kamma, whereas ability to follow the Middle Way would seem to be a matter of accumulations." CF: I understand that worldly conditions like discriminatory practices and oppressive customs are the result of moha, dosa, and tanha. I understand that 'where' and 'in what form' we are born is the result of kamma. I understand that attraction to the Dhamma and the ability to follow the Middle Way is possibly a matter of accumulationns. ----------------------------- You say: "The question you ask is, why should femininity be seen as a less wholesome karmic consequence than masculinity?" CF: No, this is not the question I am asking. I gave examples of some disturbing (to me)teachings in the scriptures attributed to the Buddha. I am wondering if they are really words he said or if they are later insertions. If they are words he said and attitudes he held, then there is one sort of problem - if they are later inserts there is a different sort of problem. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau " wrote: > 19496 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 7:39pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Andrew, I would be very interested to hear Schumann's 'plausible explanation from the historian's viewpoint' and would be grateful if you could give it on or off list. I am wondering mainly whether the Buddha said these things, or not? If so, how could he? If these negative sayings about women applied only to his own times, what other things in the Tipitaka should only apply to those ancient times as well? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew " wrote: > Hi Christine > I do understand your sentiments here. I actually know some people who > quite despise Buddhism because of such negative quotes about women. > I have a book called "The Historical Buddha" by a German > scholar/diplomat called HW Schumann. 19497 From: Andrew Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 8:20pm Subject: 1000 year prediction Dear Group Perhaps you can help me with something that is puzzling me? In Cullavagga 10.1.6, the Buddha said that, because women were now admitted into the holy life, "the true Dhamma" would last only 500 years, instead of 1000 years. Do the translators give any guidance on how this is to be read? Are these figures literal or merely an expression? If they are literal, is it not the case that "the true Dhamma" has passed? Leaving what? If the figures are mere expressions, this is an example of having to interpret the words that have come down to us through an understanding of the society in which the Buddha taught, the way people communicated then etc. When I watch television documentaries showing the highly ritualistic debating of Tibetan monks, I realise how difficult it would be for me to understand these debates if all I had was a written transcript of them. Thanks in advance Andrew 19498 From: Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women The Buddha was not interested in the petty concerns expressed regarding this topic. He wanted to liberate people from sensual desires to eliminate suffering. He also called his own body vile and all bodies vile for that matter. The Buddha did not "hold attitutes," he opened doors to liberate the mind from defilements. For those who need political correctness in their dhamma, the Buddha stated that women were capable of becoming arahats and that is the highest intellectual compliment that could be made about any human being or deva for that matter! The Buddha had hundereds or thousands of ordained female priests in the sangha over 2,500 years ago! Anyone can look through the suttas and find incongruities in any number or areas if they are not mindful of the context of the conversation (the particular level and understanding of the mind(s) the Buddha is trying to "adjust," and the location and circumstances of the time). The only purpose for the Buddha to speak to anybody is to try to alleviate peoples suffering. The Buddha only sees things in terms of conditions. He does not see thing with a "personal bias." The suttas contain roughly some 10,000 pages of material. If out of that is found about half a page of materials that appears unfair, thats probably the greatest politically correct achievement of mankind! Oops! TG 19499 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Location (was Re: another lurker) In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I thought that the example you quoted was powerfully relevant. But > even one who understands by insight, as the Elder in your example, > resorts to spatial understanding as he points outs his spilled > intestines to the younger Bhikkhu. ________________ Dear Herman, Good point. I think this is because direct insight into nama and rupa cannot occur all the time. Nor should it. Even arahants make use of concepts such as location otherwise they couldn't cross the road. So in the example the venerable bhikkhu was indicating his insight wisdom but of course he could still think in a conceptual way as well. _____ > > I want to draw in something that James has just posted regarding the > steps that lead to cessation, the Eight stages of Release. In that > sequence there is still a reference to space (The fourth stage and it > refers to the infinity of space) when there is no longer any idea of > sensation at all. Is this space also then conceptual? _______________ This sutta comes from the Digha nikaya (mahanidana sutta), sutta 15. I've written about that sutta a little in my posts about paticcasamuppada. It is a very deep one indeed. James posted one section: "Perhaps nama/rupa perception is incomplete. Consider the eight Stages of Release (vimokkha): 1.Possessing form (material shape) he sees forms. 2.Not perceiving forms internally he sees forms. 3.He is intent only on the thought `it is well'. 4.Passing entirely beyond perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, not attending to perceptions of diversity, (he perceives) "space is infinite", and attains and abides in the infinity of space. 5.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of space, (he perceives) "consciousness is infinite", and attains and abides in the stage of the infinity of consciousness. 6.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of consciousness, (he perceives) "there is nothing", and attains and abides in the stage of nothingness. 7.Passing entirely beyond the stage of nothingness, he attains and abides in the stage of neither consciousness nor non-consciousness. 8.Passing entirely beyond the stage of neither consciousness nor non- consciousness, he attains and abides in the stage of cessation of perception and feeling. (Digha, ii, 111). _ In the following paragraph to this extract the Buddha notes that one who has mastered all these jhanas PLUS has extinguished the asava is one who is ceto-vimutti panna vimutti (liberated by both heart and wisdom). I.e. he is the highest type of arahant who has mastered both samatha and vipassana. The paragraph quoted is not referring to the sukkhavipassaka arahant who has eliminated the asava but didn't use the eight mundane jhanas(which are desribed above) as basis for insight. These were samathayanika, masters of jhana, they could attain different jhanas readily and so jhana was daily life for them, then the jhana could be basis for insight in that insight could distinguish nama from rupa immediately upon leaving jhana. I cited in a previous post Majjhima Nikaaya I. 1. 8. Sallekhasutta.m (8) Purity . Cunda, it may happen, that a bhikkhu secluded from sensual desires, secluded from evil thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes, with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion, would abide in the first jhaana . Then it would occur to him, I abide in purity. Cunda, in the dispensation of the noble ones that is not purity, It is called a pleasant abiding here and now. ........Cunda, it may happen that a bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of consciousness, with there is nothing attained to abides in the sphere of no-thingness. It might occur to him I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, it may happen that a bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of nothingness, would attain and abide in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. It might occur to him, I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. http://www.abhidhamma.org/sallekkha%20sutta.htm Only if these mundane jhanas are seen – upon leaving the jhana- with insight wisdom can they be the basis for emancipation. Going back to the Mahanidana sutta. In the paragraph prior to the one James cited the Buddha said "Ananda, when a bhikkhu is liberated through non-clinging then he is called a Bhikkhu liberated by wisdom." This sentence comes after a detailed discourse on the links (nidana) of the Paticasamuppada. The atthakatha says (bodhi p103) "liberated by wisdom" having brought about the [future] non-occurrence of the mental body (nama) and material body, he is liberated solely by the power of wisdom without realising the eight emancipations . This type is fivefold: the dry- insight meditator (sukkhavipassaka) and those who attain arahantship after having become established in [only] one or another of the four jhanas." In the paragraph quoted the Buddha continues by describing the Bhikkhu who is released both ways, the highest that there is. Now, finally getting to your question: "In that > sequence there is still a reference to space (The fourth stage and it > refers to the infinity of space) when there is no longer any idea of > sensation at all. Is this space also then conceptual?" Yes, this is a description of one of the higher jhanas. And the object there is a concept actually. It cannot lead to insight while the jhana is existing but immediately upon leaving the jhana there can be, for the one who understands the way of vipassana, insight into the factors of mind that occured during that jhana (and that have passed away instantly. Robertk 19500 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 10:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hello TG, I'm not positive who you are addressing as you didn't give any indication. Somehow I feel it's bound to be me. Evidently I'm doing something very wrong to have terms such as "petty concerns", "need political correctness", "personal bias", and "greatest politically correct achievement of mankind! Oops!" written in a post to me. Can you tell me where I should take what is troubling my mind, if it is not to my kalyana-mitta? I have always been able to discuss anything in an atmosphere of trust and support here on dsg. If people no longer feel they are permitted to bring their honest questions about Buddhism and the Buddha to this table, what should they do? Should they say nothing and have doubts multiply.? Should they pretend there is nothing puzzling them? That would truly be Political Correctness in the disparaging way you seemed to use the term. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > The Buddha was not interested in the petty concerns expressed regarding this > topic. 19501 From: Diny@ Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 11:05pm Subject: Dont Attack each other.. discuss and solve the doubts Hi All, As the group name is "DSG" so whoever is studying will have doubts also ( natuarally). But it does not mean to attack particular User. But to discuss politely and politely. I am reading all the mails but as I am not a scholar I am just learning from the mails. So please keep the mails informative and definately they are. But dont attack any particular human being. Some cent of mine , appologies if i hurt unknowingly. metta to all. -Dinesh --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello TG, > > I'm not positive who you are addressing as you didn't give any > indication. Somehow I feel it's bound to be me. Evidently I'm doing > something very wrong to have terms such as "petty concerns", "need > political correctness", "personal bias", and "greatest politically > correct achievement of mankind! Oops!" written in a post to me. > > Can you tell me where I should take what is troubling my mind, if it > is not to my kalyana-mitta? I have always been able to discuss > anything in an atmosphere of trust and support here on dsg. If > people no longer feel they are permitted to bring their honest > questions about Buddhism and the Buddha to this table, what should > they do? > > Should they say nothing and have doubts multiply.? Should they > pretend there is nothing puzzling them? > That would truly be Political Correctness in the disparaging way you > seemed to use the term. > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > The Buddha was not interested in the petty concerns expressed > regarding this > > topic. > > > > > > > 19502 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 11:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Location (was Re: another lurker) Hi Herman, Just a little more to add to Rob K’s comments - --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I am happy you sent this post. I have been puzzled for a long time, > years that is, by an observation during meditation. I have been > working my way up to asking about it. (Meditational issues seem to be > a bit taboo on this site). ..... I'm happy you're happy, Herman. Hmmm......I’m not aware of any taboo in this area, but like with all other ‘close to the heart’ reflections on practice, there are probably many different understandings here about ‘meditation’ and I think these are all open for discussion accordingly. ..... >Anyway, I am feeling courageous right now, > and you said the magic word I have been puzzled about, > namely "location". > > I am happy to accept that I just don't get it, but as I said, when I > am wordlessly (watching) the coming and going of all sorts of > mindstates, one of the attributes of whatever arises and disappears > is location. ..... It’s a very good issue to raise, I think and not obvious and clear-cut as it may seem. ..... >Whether it is heat or pressure or sound or colour, all > of these things seem to have a spatial aspect. I would like to read > your comments on this, and everyone else's of course. And without > wishing to control the comments I get back, I would prefer them to be > based on experience. ..... Understood. Firstly you mentioned mental states. By mental states I understand phenomena such as greed and hatred. Usually when these arise, they are ‘engrossed’ in their particular object which is usually a long train of concepts. There is no thought or idea or experience of anything relating to location. Occasionally at some level or other, there is awareness of the mental state involved. At these times, the object of the consciousness with awareness is that quality of greed or hatred. It could seem (but I can’t say it does for me), that this is in the head, but I believe that is just thinking about it afterwards. Next you mention heat, pressure, sound and colour. As we know, these are classified as rupas and can be proved now to be fleeting phenomena that can only be experienced by consciousness. They don’t experience anything. Heat and pressure can be experienced through any part of the bodysense. However at the instant of experiencing through the bodysense, only the heat or pressure is actually experienced. As Rob discussed I think, the mind door consciousness and thinking which ‘locates’ it follows so quickly that we think it’s the knee or eye location that is experienced, when really these are the following mind door processes. The same could be said about the sound or colour. When there is the experience of sound there is no experience of the ear location but I agree that our apparent experience can be very misleading in these regards. In some meditation practices (like Goenka-style) or in some Chinese healing systems or Tai chi, we learn to be able to experience the sensations clearly throughout the entire body or up and down the energy (chi) meridiens. I find it quite helpful for my health to do this. In terms of realities and awareness (satipatthana), I believe the matter is a lot more complex and that if one thinks this is the direct understanding of rupas or that directing one’s attention in this way is how there can be more understanding of impermanence, for example, then I think it’s erroneous. I’m touching on sensitive ground, so I'll leave it here. ..... ( I once went to an eye specialist, and on > explaining my symptoms he said that it was impossible for me to have > those symptoms.) I am just simply wondering, does the spatial aspect > of whatever arises disappear at a certain stage of whatever it is > there are stages of? ..... Your visit to the eye specialist is a good example, I think. From your point of view, of course you have the symptoms you report. From a medical point of view, it may be impossible - like phantom pains in amputated arms, for example. In other words, most people could swear that they see a tree or experience water through the body sense. This is why we need to consider the theory to some extent because supposed experience is not necessarily the right criterion. What percentage of the population insist they can experience a soul or God for that matter? I think you’re right about the spatial aspect. The more direct awareness and understanding there is of hardness or pressure or sound or mental states, the less ‘mixing’ there is with ideas (usu. not in words) about location or spatial regards. If we’ve never heard that only pressure, temperature and solidity are experienced by body consciousness, the experience won’t seem like this and definitely it will seem like a self has the experiences. Having heard and considered about realities, however, sati and panna can then actually test out whether they are experienced as the Buddha taught. That’s ‘my’ experience and I hope it doesn’t sound too jumbled for your question;-).These are quite subtle points you're raising. That’s why we always come back to the teachings as the criterion rather than different personal and subjective experiences which are bound to be as varied as there are ideas about meditation;-) I'll be glad to hear any further ideas you have. > May you not be reborn .... Thanks for all these good wishes and your witty postscripts to other messages have been appreciated. Fortunately or unfortunately, I need to set a good example of restraint . Metta, Sarah ===== 19503 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 11:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member - hello to you all - "May all beings be happy" Hi Dinesh, Glad to hear from you on DSG and thank you for introducing yourself. --- "Diny@" wrote: > Hi All Dhamma Brothers and Sisters, > > I am Dinesh from India, got this Group from Net , > I am into Vipassana since 1993 > First camp at Igatpuri India. Since then I am practising. > Though My Job is having tons of deadlines as I am in Sofware field, find > time > for practising Vipassana. > > I am keeping my Intro mail Short , if its big my applogies. ..... Thanks so much for the details. We have at least two or three other members from India and a few from Sri Lanka too. Whereabouts do you live in India, I wonder? Most the software jobs seems to be in Hyderabad or Bangalore, I believe. You're obviously kept very busy. My question to you is whether there can be Vipassana while you're busy working? Look forward to more of your questions and comments. Metta, Sarah ============== 19504 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 0:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi, All, I think what is just said by James is what happens. All based on some kind of Karmic energy level still to be discovered by science. Whatever is there as stated below .. In matriarchal societies, masculinity would be the undesirable undesirable consequence ... is used as a cause to have that effect of being treated (the cause & effect being pervasive all over 31 levels of existence with the only exception of Nivarna or Nibbana) all our action (kamma) come into played and everything is accountable and no administrator all automatic as in the law of conservation of energy or other physical laws. Thx. Eddie L --- "James " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, > "kenhowardau > " wrote: > > > > Hi Christine, > > > > I know this is not your point, but femininity is > no bar to > progress > > on the Path: > > > Rebirth as man or woman, rich or poor, seems to be > related to > kamma, > > whereas ability to follow the Middle Way would > seem to be a matter > of > > accumulations. > > > > The question you ask is, why should femininity be > seen as a less > > wholesome karmic consequence than masculinity? I > don't know, > sorry. > > But even if females are somehow inferior (I said > "IF" :-)), it > > wouldn't be the Buddha's fault -- he didn't make > the rules. > > > > > What would cause a being to be reborn as a female > in a society > where > > females are severely discriminated against? My > guess is; that > > being's own discriminatory behaviour in past > lives.(?) > > > > In matriarchal societies, masculinity would be the > undesirable > > consequence. (I'm not sure about this -- just > guessing.) > > > Hi Ken, > > This could be, but not very likely. After all, just > being born > human is very rare and of great blessing. Perhaps > it is the > opposite of what you suggest. Perhaps women born > into a submissive > situation are being offered an extrodinary > opportunity because of > past good deeds. After all, the Buddha specifically > said that he > was born into certain hardships, over countless > lives, so that he > could cultivate the perfections. Perhaps women are > the future > Buddhas or current Buddhas of today, using their > experience as women > to cultivate the 10 perfections of generosity > (dana), morality > (sila), renunciation (nekkhamma), wisdom (panna), > energy (viriya), > patience (khanti), truthfulness (sacca), > determination (adhitthana), > loving-kindness (metta), and equanimity (upekkha). > Something to > consider...I'm not any more sure than you are, but > prefer to give > women the benefit of the doubt. > > Metta, James > > > > > > > > 19505 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 0:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] 1000 year prediction I heard it is 5,000 years cut in half and it now 2,560 something years so also passed about over 60 years already. Eddie L --- "Andrew " wrote: > Dear Group > Perhaps you can help me with something that is > puzzling me? In > Cullavagga 10.1.6, the Buddha said that, because > women were now > admitted into the holy life, "the true Dhamma" would > last only 500 > years, instead of 1000 years. > Do the translators give any guidance on how this is > to be read? Are > these figures literal or merely an expression? If > they are literal, > is it not the case that "the true Dhamma" has > passed? Leaving what? > If the figures are mere expressions, this is an > example of having to > interpret the words that have come down to us > through an understanding > of the society in which the Buddha taught, the way > people communicated > then etc. > When I watch television documentaries showing the > highly ritualistic > debating of Tibetan monks, I realise how difficult > it would be for me > to understand these debates if all I had was a > written transcript of them. > Thanks in advance > Andrew > > > > > > 19506 From: Diny@ Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 2:48am Subject: Vipassana practice and life Transformed Hi Dhamma Brothers and Sisters, From "DSG" Group How many of you do "Vipassana" how vipassana has transformed your life and then how you have transformed others life. thanks in advance, sincere regards, -Dinesh 19507 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 2:48am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Herman, Howard and James, I agree with your comments about blaming the victim; I should have chosen my words more carefully. No doubt, a Buddha knows the precise workings of kamma/vipaka but he also knows the world as mere fleeting phenomena. So he knows that in reality, there is no victim to blame. I think another way to be less inclined towards praising and blaming is to remember the nature of samsara. As I understand it, the wheel of birth and rebirth has been turning for uncountable aeons; we must all have been at the top occasionally [as gods], at the bottom occasionally [as demons], and we must have been just about everywhere in between. (I can't quote any references for this.) If this is right, then each of us has committed every possible crime many times over; today's saint is yesterday's villain and vice versa. We're all in the same boat, all on the same giant ferris wheel, it's meaningless to praise one person and blame another. Kind regards, Ken H Weight Age Gender Female Male 19508 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 5:13am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Herman, I am sure the Buddha would had said these words to Bikkhunis if he had ever said at all. "Bikkhunis, there are these five disadvatages in a black snake. What five? It is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays friends. Even so, Bikkhunis, there are these five disadvantages in a man. What five? He is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays friends. These are the five. All of us in samsara, whether male or female, are unclean, evil- smelling, timid, fearful and betrays/betrayed/will betray friends either in this life or past lives or in future lives (if any) until we become Arahants. Regards, NEO Swee Boon PS: Let us be fair to the Buddha, OK? 19509 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 5:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] 1000 year prediction Dear Andrew, The commentaries said that the 1000 is meant for a Dispensation with Arahants with the 4 discriminations. It said without the additional restrictions the Buddha placed on the bikkhunis, this period would be halved. The commentaries placed the maximum life of this Dispensation to be 5000 years (with people who can become enlightened). It is all over when there is no more Pativedha (attainment). The deterioration of the Pariyatti (study of the Buddha's teachings) brings about the disappearance of Pati-pati (practice) and Pativedha. It also said if there is Pariyatti, there must be Pativedha. There can't be Pativedha without Pariyatti. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew > [mailto:athel60@t...] > Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:20 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] 1000 year prediction > > 19510 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 6:28am Subject: RE: [dsg] negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Dear Christine & All, How I study the texts is when I read something, do I understand the reasoning/the truth behind this? If I don't, I leave it aside, as regardless of how much I speculate whether or not the Buddha has said this, I cannot conclusively prove it in any way. There are tons of text related to Buddhist literature, read what brings about wisdom and wholesome qualities, and leave the rest until we can understand it. Do the texts suggest differences between men and women? I think they do. Do I understand all the differences? No. > -----Original Message----- > "Ananda, a woman is given to anger. Ananda, woman > is envious. Ananda, a woman is greedy. Ananda, > woman is poor in > wisdom. This is the reason, Ananda, this is the > cause, why women-folk > do not preside in a court of justice, nor engage > in an occupation, > nor go to a foreign country." (Anguttara Nikaya I agree with Ken here that it makes sense that one (men or women) who are prone to anger, envious, greedy, or poor in wisdom can't do any of the above things. > > "Monks, there are these five disadvatages in a > black snake. What > five? It is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, > fearful and betrays > friends. Even so, monks, there are these five > disadvantages in a > woman. What five? She is unclean, evil-smelling, > timid, fearful and > betrays friends. These are the five. (Anguttara > Nikaya III) Again, I also agree with earlier posts that men also have these qualities!!! > > Ananda: 'How are we to conduct ourselves, Lord, > with regard to > womankind?' The Buddha: 'As not seeing them, > Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if > we should see them, what are we to do"' The > Buddha: 'No talking, > Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if they should speak to us, > Lord what are we to > do?' The Buddha: 'Keep wide awake, Ananda.' > (Dialogues of the Buddha > II. Paribibbana Sutta) > This only describes the potency of kilesa when it comes to the opposite sex! kom 19511 From: Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] 1000 year prediction Hi, Eddie - In a message dated 2/8/03 3:35:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, eddielou_us@y... writes: > I heard it is 5,000 years cut in half and it now 2,560 > something years so also passed about over 60 years > already. > > Eddie L > ========================= Hmm! In that case I wonder which U.S. gov't administration was in at the time! (I mean, we've gotta blame somebody, right! ;-) Actually, it may have been just around the time of my birth ... uh, oh!!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19512 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 6:54am Subject: RE: [dsg] eight Stages of Release (vimokkha) James & All, > -----Original Message----- > From: James > > Hi All, > > Perhaps nama/rupa perception is incomplete. > Consider the eight > Stages of Release (vimokkha): > > 1.Possessing form (material shape) he sees forms. > 2.Not perceiving forms internally he sees forms. > 3.He is intent only on the thought `it is well'. > 4.Passing entirely beyond perceptions of form, with the > disappearance of perceptions of resistance, not > attending to > perceptions of diversity, (he perceives) "space > is infinite", and > attains and abides in the infinity of space. > 5.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the > infinity of space, (he > perceives) "consciousness is infinite", and > attains and abides in > the stage of the infinity of consciousness. > 6.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of > consciousness, (he perceives) "there is nothing", > and attains and > abides in the stage of nothingness. > 7.Passing entirely beyond the stage of > nothingness, he attains and > abides in the stage of neither consciousness nor > non-consciousness. > 8.Passing entirely beyond the stage of neither > consciousness nor non- > consciousness, he attains and abides in the stage > of cessation of > perception and feeling. > (Digha, ii, 111). > These describe the 4 rupa jhana and 4 arupa jhana and nirodha sampatti. As Howard already alludes to, all can be bases (objects) of enlightenments. The Venerable Sariputta attains Arahataship thru nirodha sampatti, although his attainment of sotapanna is probably(???) not based on these sampatti. kom 19513 From: bodhi342 Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 8:43am Subject: Re: Parameters The Buddha declared "I teach only suffering and the cessation of suffering." Dear Mike, Sarah, Robert and All, Thank you very much for considering my questions and providing thoughtful answers. I want you to know that I appreciate the effort that goes into responding. I also appreciate your patience with my awkwardness in trying to understand your point of view. I feel I need to do this for many reasons. [One of these is avoiding an outcome I had never considered before reading the Snake Sutta :- ( ] I am afraid I have still not got a clear picture of YOUR general feeling (or understanding) about other teachings. [Have had to break up my combined response as it was getting too long. This message now addresses Mike's response, will post Sarah's and Robert's later.] MN: I don't know of any other teachings that address the four noble truths (or two, as above). It's my guarded opinion that these are unique to Buddhadhamma. D: Mike, thank you for your lightning quick response, with information that I found very appropriate. It seems that other teachings also have suffering and its resolution/salvation as important endeavors. Also, addressing the unsatisfactoriness of this existence is presumably one reason for the popularity of so many (all?) religious teachings. However, if this unsatisfactory state of affairs is only defined as in the four noble truths, then implicitly they are unique to Buddhadhama. So, I think it is again an issue of terminology, view, parameters, and ultimately ... belief. I guess what I am looking for is a view about other teachings not overly restricted by the parameters of one's own dominant belief. Perhaps even this is not easily possible, let alone true objectivity. [Somehow, I am reminded of Gothic Queen Tamora's remarkable response after Roman sacrificial rites supercede her appeal for the life of her first-born in Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus. "Cruel, irreligious piety!" What struck me there was that mutually exclusive beliefs of both parties, provided no bridge to aid understanding. Needless to say both thought they were right. What therefore follows is a showcase for kilesa and kamma! BTW this play also reveals many aspects of Dukkha i.e. dukkha-dukkha, change and unsatisfactoriness that those interested may want to review it. Personal dukkha-dukkha's fade in comparison!] MN: Personally, I don't find religions or philosophies either complimentary to Buddhadhamma or 'wrong' per se (well, some seem wrong to me in various ways). However, I haven't found one that I think is relevant to the four noble truths. D: I understand this then to mean that the four noble truths are the only focus of your endeavor. Therefore the other teachings are irrelevant, rather than either complimentary or wrong. Please let me know if I understand you correctly, Mike. I enjoyed reading your quote from the Simsappa Sutta. It just reinforced my impression that the Buddha was concentrating on one aspect of reality - Dukkha, and he knew it, and even explicitly declared it. It is that very aspect of supra-mundane reality (non- Dukkha - if there is such a thing) that I want to get at here. MN: I think this finally gets into the meaning of 'reality'. A big can of worms, as can be seen in the archives...! D: I had to stop counting the number of messages with the word 'reality' in the dsg search!! I assume that if everything is encompassed in Anicca, Anatta and Dukkha, there is no *need* for consideration of an unconditioned "............", (apart from Nibbana?). Yet, that is the preoccupation of so many (billions) of other humans, and I wonder whether this anomaly can be reconciled? Is it possible to reconcile internally consistent beliefs? metta, dharam 19514 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 8:58am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine, I think now I can understand your doubt about the Buddha and the Teaching. This is how I understand and interpret what the Buddha taught about women: First of all, the characteristics of women should be understood in the context of sexual desire and intercourse, in the context of sexual relationship, in the context of the bondage of such desire and relationship. There is a distinction between being a woman and being of female sex(for that matter, being a man and being of male sex). A bhikkhuni is of female sex; however, she is not called a woman. Let's examine Ananda's question to the Lord Buddha: "What is the reason, Lord, what is the cause that womenfolk do not preside in a court of justice,' nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a foreign* country ?" Was Ananda really interested in the cause of the socioeconomic status of womanfolk of his time? And did he really need to know it, given the goal of the cessation of dukkha? Is it part of Dhamma- Vinaya? I don't think so. Then why was Ven. Ananda, a bhikkhu, asking this question? Because Ananda was preoccupied. Not with the socioeconomic status of woman of his time but with the thought and desire on woman. The question masked that preoccupation. The Buddha saw through the mask and answered to Ananda's preoccupation. Instead of giving an exposition on the cause of the SES of the womanfolk of that time, the Buddha point out that a woman, in the underlying context of sexual desire and intercourse and sexual relationship, is given to anger, is envious, is greedy, is poor in wisdom. (So is a man in that context, as far as I am concerned.) In the context of sexual desire and intercourse, of sexual relationship, of the bondage of such desire and relationship, a woman is indeed unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays friends. And so is a man, as far as I am concerned. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > Through my reading I have come across some words attributed to the > Buddha that I find quite disturbing: > > "Once the Exalted One dwelt in Ghosita-park at Kosambi. Then the > venerable Ananda came to where the Exalted One was. Having so come he > made obeisance to the Exalted One and took a seat at one side. So > seated the venerable Ananda said thus to the Exalted One. "What is > the reason, Lord, what is the cause that womenfolk do not preside in > a court of justice,' nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a > foreign* country ?" > "Ananda, a woman is given to anger. Ananda, woman > is envious. Ananda, a woman is greedy. Ananda, woman is poor in > wisdom. This is the reason, Ananda, this is the cause, why women- folk > do not preside in a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, > nor go to a foreign country." (Anguttara Nikaya II Chapter VIII PTS) > > CF: Is it not somewhat 'surprising' that, given this opportunity by > the Ven. Ananda, the Buddha didn't choose to talk about the > oppressive structure of a society that did not educate girls, and did > not employ women in activities outside the home, but chose instead to > describe women as angry, envious, greedy and with little wisdom? A > simple 'that's the way this society is Ananda, boys are brought up > differently to girls' would have sufficed. None of the women I know > could be described as epitomising these bad qualities. Though all > would experience the emotions occasionally, as do all men. (And I > know many women who run their own businesses, are magistrates and > members of parliament, and, of my close acquaintances there are none > that have not travelled to foreign countries.) > > -------------------------------- > > And again, he spoke of Migasala who had enquired of Ananda about > Kamma as: "Just a foolish, witless female woman, with just a woman's > wit" (Anguttara Nikaya Chapter VIII PTS) > > CF: Surprising to describe one person in such a way, let alone to > then generalise and speak of a 'just a woman's wit', as if such a > thing came in a 'female package'. > > ------------------------------- > > and this, > > 'And what, Master Gotama, is a woman's aim?" > "A man, O brahmin, is a woman's aim, her quest is for adornments, her > mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal > is domination." ( Anguttara Nikaya VI.52) > > CF: Another chance not taken to show some understanding of societal > pressures and structures limiting the horizon of women? Instead, a > limiting pronouncement is made. > > -------------------------------- > and this, > > "Monks, there are these five disadvatages in a black snake. What > five? It is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays > friends. Even so, monks, there are these five disadvantages in a > woman. What five? She is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and > betrays friends. These are the five. (Anguttara Nikaya III) > > CF: There is nothing that can be said, other than this is a very sad > to read. > > ------------------------------ > > and this, with no citation, > > "Monks, womenfolk end their life unsated and unreplete with two > things, What two? Sexual intercourse and childbirth. These are the > two things." > > CF: Again, sad. > > ------------------------------- > > and this, > > Ananda: 'How are we to conduct ourselves, Lord, with regard to > womankind?' The Buddha: 'As not seeing them, Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if > we should see them, what are we to do"' The Buddha: 'No talking, > Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if they should speak to us, Lord what are we to > do?' The Buddha: 'Keep wide awake, Ananda.' (Dialogues of the Buddha > II. Paribibbana Sutta) > > --------------------------------- > > metta, > > Christine 19515 From: bodhi342 Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 0:13pm Subject: Re: Parameters The Buddha declared "I teach only suffering and the cessation of suffering." Dear Robert and All, Thank you for pointing out that rejection of view of self was where the Buddha ultimately diverged from all recluses and Brahmins. I did look up the Majjhima Nikaaya as you suggested. I am afraid I found this discourse tedious, perhaps I could not fully understand the nomenclature and/or context. I gathered that because recluses and Brahmins, did not subscribe completely to the Buddha's teaching, their understanding was incomplete or imperfect, not just different. This is fine, except it does not really explain why they are imperfect. To give an analogy, one could say, "these people do not believe in Darwinian evolution. They are not just different, they are wrong." This is internally crystal clear to those who have similar view, but not to those outside. In this case, there are logical and scientific arguments to buttress both views. One may justifiably feel there is premature closure, and elect to understand both viewpoints until 'irrefutable' evidence is available. Those in the polar 'camps' have the luxury of 'certainty', and can be intolerant of other 'inferior' views. As far as self-view itself is concerned, it may possibly be tackled in other ways e.g. in the unity of all existence, and/or efforts to understand ego and its sublimation. Therefore, a different approach to the same issue. One other point may be pertinent here. This discourse does not, and could not address, other understandings or teachings, that are now accessible. Therefore, do you think that the above tests continue to stand for these other teachings? What is your own feeling about these, not necessarily delineated by scripture? metta, dharam 19516 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 1:59pm Subject: Abhidhamma (James) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " <, I believe that you, Jon, and Nina (the Triumvirate of > this group) are guiltier of wrong speech and here are my reasons for > this evaluation: > > (1) Abstaining from false speech (musavada veramani) > > All three of you speak of the Abhidhamma as if the Buddha taught it. > The evidence that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma is > overwhelming. This is not a matter of personal opinion; this is a > matter of fact. Even though you are all intelligent enough to know > that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma, you continue to mislead > with half-truths, innuendos, and bold lies about this matter. That > is false speech. I have only stated what is accepted scholarship: > The Lord Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma Pitaka. > ________________ Dear James, I also believe the Buddha taught Abhidhamma. If you would like to discuss this I have some time over the next few days. RobertK 19517 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 8:05pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Victor, Thank you for explaining things as you understand them. It is something to think about and is quite helpful, in that what was said is put into a possibly acceptable context. The problem remains as to why these specific individualised teachings have been generalised through the millennia to to apply to all women in all situations. But that's O.K. - that's a problem concerning ordinary people, not the Buddha. Thanks Victor, metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao " wrote: 19518 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 8:14pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Swee Boon, > "Ananda, a woman is given to anger. Ananda, woman > is envious. Ananda, a woman is greedy. Ananda, woman is poor in > wisdom. This is the reason, Ananda, this is the cause, why women- folk > do not preside in a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, > nor go to a foreign country." (Anguttara Nikaya II Chapter VIII PTS) Swee Boon: There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply stating a fact that any woman who is such could not do the above things. The Buddha was simply not concerned about mundane things such as equal rights for women in his days. This is not the concern of the Dhamma. The majority of women in his days are probably not educated. For a fact, my mother is uneducated. She can't be a judge. She has no occupation; she's a housewife, I don't consider this to be an occupation. Does she know how to get around from east to west on a small island like Singapore on her own? Nay. Much less go to a foreign country. Christine, you have to look both ways. And yes, my mother can be angry, can be envious, and can be greedy. I am not joking with you, simply because I have a mother who is like that. CF: It is unfortunate that your mother was not able to be educated, and understandably, this limits her choices in a place like Singapore. But education is not equatable with Intelligence. Lack of equal educational opportunity is a societal problem that should be addressed to ensure all citizens have equal access regardless of gender, age, race, culture or religion. Obviously, through no fault of her own, she would be excluded from all areas of employment requiring a certain educational level as a key critieria. This is not something for which she should be looked down upon. A person who remains in the home and co-ordinates and manages its efficient running, who contributes to the safety, health and comfort of others, and wisely cares for children is certainly in an important occupation - one that underpins an ordered and civilised society. Your remark about not considering her duties as being an occupation merely shows that it is a "devalued" occupation. It is strange to think of someone only considering paid employment as a valuable occupation. My country would not be able to function without the Volunteers who often work five days a week for organisations that supply meals and other services to the elderly to keep them in their own homes, work as volunteer Lifesavers to keep our beaches safe, supply the staff for the volunteer fire fighter groups, and Community Policing, and well as helping in any emergency in the State Emergency Service ....... and the List goes on. You say your mother can be angry, envious and greedy. Of course she can, she is human. And what about you, Swee Boon? Do you also have those unwholesome qualities? I would think all of us might at times - they are not the prerogative of one gender. Pointing to a defilement in a person doesn't then enable one to generalise it to the entire gender, anymore than it can be generalised to everyone with the same coloured eyes or hair. --------------------------------------- > And again, he spoke of Migasala who had enquired of Ananda about > Kamma as: "Just a foolish, witless female woman, with just a woman's > wit" (Anguttara Nikaya Chapter VIII PTS) Swee Boon: It is no surprise to me that all Buddhas are male. As are the two Chief Disciples of any Buddha. How you thought about that? Why there aren't any female Buddha? I think the Buddha was simply stating a fact that women in general have less wit than men. And this is so true in society when men (used to ?) dominate the women. CF: I haven't known even one Buddha - neither have you. We have both simply known the Dhamma, read one set of Teachings attributed to a person who lived 2600 years ago and who had the title The Buddha. History doesn't record any other Buddha, though some are mentioned in certain scriptures - as are gods, devas, nagas, maras and other beings and happenings not independently historically proven. Your last two sentences above are completely untrue and contrary to facts; it is a personal prejudice. Women in general do not have less wit than men in general, even when they forced to conform to the mores of an oppressive culture. ------------------------------------ > 'And what, Master Gotama, is a woman's aim?" > "A man, O brahmin, is a woman's aim, her quest is for adornments, her > mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal > is domination." ( Anguttara Nikaya VI.52) Swee Boon: There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply making a plain observation of women in the days of his society. His message was addressed to a "brahmin" of the ancient days. A portion of the above statement rings true even for modern society (and think about the Chinese's preference for sons), don't you think so? CF: No, I don't. These are male dominated cultural impositions when women have had little choice and are valued only in certain roles and if certain outcomes occur. As soon as women have access to reliable and safe birth control, they use it. As soon as women have access to education and employment opportunities, they take advantage of them. The marriage rate drops markedly in countries where women have a choice of a variety of relationships and independent life styles. Bodily adornment is not 'a quest' - it is a trivial matter on the level of what ice-cream flavour to choose. ------------------------------------------------- > "Monks, womenfolk end their life unsated and unreplete with two > things, What two? Sexual intercourse and childbirth. These are the > two things." Swee Boon: There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply stating a fact that can be very observable even till today. Just look at India, China, Africa, Middle East. Just look at the population explosion. I prefer to interpret "womenfolk" as "the majority". CF: What *fact* is he stating? He states that women are 'unsated' by sexual intercourse and childbirth and are *unreplete* by sexual intercourse and childbirth. Again, targeting women as a gender. *Unsated* means the hungers of sexual desire are never fully appeased. Only someone who has never been with a woman during childbirth could entertain the notion that women would be 'unreplete' i.e. never completely have sufficient. As soon as women are offered the means to control conception, they gratefully take it. The other thing that alters at that time (in all cultural groups) is the reduction in the numbers of women dying from inexpert abortions, because of unwanted pregnancies. We should have compassion and understanding for powerless women in India, China, Africa, Middle East - who often have little or no education, no knowledge, or means to control their fertility or even any right to control when or with whom they must have sexual intercourse. The conception of a baby requires a man to be involved each time. The Immaculate Conception is not a buddhist belief. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: 19519 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 8:44pm Subject: curiosity Dear Swee Boon, I am curious, are you a male or female. Veneraable Yanatharo 19520 From: smallchap Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 9:00pm Subject: Re: Vipassana practice and life Transformed --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Diny@" wrote: > Hi Dhamma Brothers and Sisters, > > From "DSG" Group > > How many of you do "Vipassana" > > how vipassana has transformed your life > > and then how you have transformed others life. I have been practising anapana/vipassana for about 18 years. It has not transformed my life. Life goes on as usual for me. I have not transformed others' lives too through vipassana. Lives go on as usual for them too. :) smallchap p.s. I consider life transform to be from a puthujjana to an ariya. 19521 From: Andrew Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 9:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 1000 year prediction --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Andrew, > > The commentaries said that the 1000 is meant for a > Dispensation with Arahants with the 4 discriminations. It > said without the additional restrictions the Buddha placed > on the bikkhunis, this period would be halved. > > The commentaries placed the maximum life of this > Dispensation to be 5000 years (with people who can become > enlightened). > Hello Kom Thanks for your answer to my question. However, I am still a bit confused. The Cullavagga is in the Vinaya, I believe. If Buddha there used the figures 1000 and 500, how can those figures become 5000 in the commentaries? Is this an issue of translation from Pali to English? Or is it something more than that? Andrew 19522 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Howard Referring to the first of the 4 samma-padhanas mentioned in your quote from the Sangiti Sutta (Digha Nikaya): "Here friends a [monk] generates intention, sets his thinking on, rouses energy, and makes an effort - to prevent the arising of bad, unskilful states not yet present in the here and now, - ..." you say: <> and: <> I would like to follow up on this question of whether restraint of the sense-doors is something that can be engaged in as a means of avoiding akusala states (I think you perhaps have in mind here a kind of practice?). In the version of the 4 samma-padhaanas quoted in your original post (A. IV, 14), the first samma-padhaana is described as follows: "What now, o monks, is the effort to avoid? "Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. "And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses. "This is called the effort to avoid." (Nyanatiloka trans) Note particularly the references 'he neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts', 'if he remained with unguarded senses' and 'restrains his senses'. To my reading, this is a description of how, at a moment of mindfulness, the sense-door is truly guarded by virtue of the mindfulness; and how, if mindfulness is absent, the sense-door cannot be considered to be guarded. The mindfulness that guards the sense-doors is clearly a high level of kusala. Kusala, of whatever level, is not something that can be 'practised' by anyone so minded, even the most well-intentioned of persons. One other comment. You also say: <<... this pertains to preliminary training.>> As far as the development of insight or mindfulness is concerned, I am not aware of any 'preliminary training'. To my understanding, there are certain prerequisite conditions, such as repeated hearing of and reflection on the teachings, but nothing in the nature of a preliminary training. However, if you have any references to this in the texts, I would be interested to know them. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > ... > > ************************************************** > > Ultimate abandoning arises only as the fruit of wisdom. > > However, penultimate abandoning can arise as a result of > mindfulness > > accompanied by intention and energy. What I am referring to in > this > > respect is what the Buddha called guarding the senses, by which > one > > fosters kusala states and avoids akusala ones... > > ************************************************** ... > > I have not come across any classification in the teachings of > > 'penultimate abandoning arising as a result of mindfulness > > accompanied by intention and energy'. To my reading of the texts > and > > commentaries on samma-padhaana, mindfulness/insight and the > intention > > or effort for the same are really different aspects of the same > > moment of (mundane or supramundane) path consciousness. > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > No ned to woory about it, Jon - it's just mundane and > conventioanl > abandoning anyway! ;-)) [More seriously, this pertains to > preliminary > training. Guarding the senses is an activity recommended by the > Buddha, it is > something you and I *can* engage in, and it cultivates the mind.] > ------------------------------------------------- 19523 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 9:41pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine, > It is unfortunate that your mother was not able to be educated, > and understandably, this limits her choices in a place like Singapore. > Obviously, through no fault of her own, she would be excluded from all > areas of employment requiring a certain educational level as a key critieria. It is unfortunate, but does that mean it's not her own fault? It's her kamma that causes her not to have an education in this life. It's as simple as that. And it's my kamma that I have a mother who is not educated. When I was young, I wished I had an educated mother like some of my other classmates. My father has only primary education and he can't speak English. You will never know my sadness and trauma associated with that. I have always been searching for an answer to my life situation. And I found it in Theravada Buddhism. All these are simply kamma. You may reason that "societal problem" caused my mother not to be educated. But if you really and carefully study the Abdhidhamma, there is no such thing as "societal problem". There is only kamma. The concept of "societal problem" is merely to shift the blame on the person himself/herself to others. Put simply, you are asserting that it is "others" who caused my mother to be uneducated. From the Abhidhamma point of view, this assertion is wrong. "Societal problem" is merely a view, an entanglement of views. It does not lead to correct understanding of kamma. I understand perfectly your point. For I too, had considered this kind of view in the past. But it did not help me at all. To take up this view is to conveniently shift the blame to "others". It is to deny the existence of kamma. After all, we all like to say "It's not my fault.". We all like to be blameless. But the Buddha didn't teach that. > You say your mother can be angry, envious and greedy. Of course she > can, she is human. And what about you, Swee Boon? Do you also have > those unwholesome qualities? I would think all of us might at times - > they are not the prerogative of one gender. Pointing to a > defilement in a person doesn't then enable one to generalise it to > the entire gender, anymore than it can be generalised to everyone > with the same coloured eyes or hair. I don't deny I have these unwholesome qualities. And I agree that any man who has such qualities can't do what the Buddha described. But has it ever occurred to you that you are reading too much biasness into that sutta? I think that the Buddha answered in that way was because his answer was directed to Ananda's query on women. If Ananda had queried on men, the Buddha's answer would probably be the same. I feel that the biasness is on your part and not on the Buddha's part. > Your last two sentences above are completely untrue and contrary to > facts; it is a personal prejudice. Women in general do not have less > wit than men in general, even when they forced to conform to the > mores of an oppressive culture. Personal prejudice? Don't you think the majority of cultures have male as the dominating gender? > No, I don't. These are male dominated cultural impositions when > women have had little choice and are valued only in certain roles and > if certain outcomes occur. Doesn't your statement "male-dominated cultural impositions" shows that men have more wit than women? Men really does have more wit than women in general. It's a fact. > What *fact* is he stating? He states that women are 'unsated' > by sexual intercourse and childbirth and are *unreplete* by sexual > intercourse and childbirth. Again, targeting women as a gender. If men are 'unsated' by sexual intercourse, what makes you think women are not 'unsated' by sexual intercourse? Both men and women are addicted to sex. The majority of women in this world do have at least one childbirth. Otherwise, how is the world population maintained at it present level and growing still? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19524 From: Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Hi, Jon - In the following, with respect to my use of the phrase 'preliminary training' you write "To my understanding, there are certain prerequisite conditions, such as repeated hearing of and reflection on the teachings, but nothing in the nature of a preliminary training." My impression is that it is exactly this - repeatedly hearing and reflecting on the teachings - that is the only thing you understand the Dhamma as teaching us to volitionally do, and that this alone results in the subsequent arising of kusala conditions which eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, to all the enlightenment factors, and, eventually, to liberation. Am I correct in this, or do I misread you in this? (This is not at all my understanding of the Dhamma, but I know that you realize that. I do not consider the Dhamma as mainly descriptive but as mainly prescriptive.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/9/03 12:13:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > Referring to the first of the 4 samma-padhanas mentioned in your > quote from the Sangiti Sutta (Digha Nikaya): > "Here friends a [monk] generates intention, sets his thinking on, > rouses energy, and makes an effort > - to prevent the arising of bad, unskilful states not yet present in > the here and now, > - ..." > > you say: > < guarding the senses, by which one fosters kusala states and avoids > akusala ones...>> > > and: > < something you and I *can* engage in, and it cultivates the mind.>> > > I would like to follow up on this question of whether restraint of > the sense-doors is something that can be engaged in as a means of > avoiding akusala states (I think you perhaps have in mind here a kind > of practice?). > > In the version of the 4 samma-padhaanas quoted in your original post > (A. IV, 14), the first samma-padhaana is described as follows: > "What now, o monks, is the effort to avoid? > "Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily > or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to > its parts. > "And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome > things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with > unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his > senses. > "This is called the effort to avoid." > (Nyanatiloka trans) > > Note particularly the references 'he neither adheres to the whole nor > to its parts', 'if he remained with unguarded senses' and 'restrains > his senses'. To my reading, this is a description of how, at a > moment of mindfulness, the sense-door is truly guarded by virtue of > the mindfulness; and how, if mindfulness is absent, the sense-door > cannot be considered to be guarded. > > The mindfulness that guards the sense-doors is clearly a high level > of kusala. Kusala, of whatever level, is not something that can be > 'practised' by anyone so minded, even the most well-intentioned of > persons. > > One other comment. You also say: > <<... this pertains to preliminary training.>> > > As far as the development of insight or mindfulness is concerned, I > am not aware of any 'preliminary training'. To my understanding, > there are certain prerequisite conditions, such as repeated hearing > of and reflection on the teachings, but nothing in the nature of a > preliminary training. However, if you have any references to this in > the texts, I would be interested to know them. > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19525 From: Andrew Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 9:42pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > > PS: Let us be fair to the Buddha, OK? Dear Group I do agree with Swee Boon's little PS above. Part of being fair to the Buddha is, I believe, understanding and acknowledging that people communicated and debated differently thousands of years ago to the manner we are used to today. The rules were different. Anyone who doubts this may like to read Satis Chandra Vidyabhusana's book, "A History of Indian Logic" (1971). I cannot be certain, but I have a feeling that Christine's doubts (which she has been brave enough to share with us) may be resolved by understanding that the Buddha's words not only matched the capacity of his specific listeners, but also the accepted rules of argument of the day. Perhaps this is why someone of supreme intelligence could (seemingly) make contradictory comments about women without encountering the "hypocrisy" backlash that we are so used to today with our vicious and shallow form of mass journalism? Perhaps communication in those days was highly personal and highly specific, ritualistic even? In other words, it may not be fair to Buddha to extrapolate from isolated comments and not put them in the overall context. Andrew 19526 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 10:08pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine, Just to add some more. I am deaf in my left ear since childhood. The doctor said it was because of a high fever. When I was a teenager, I suddenly felt very very very sad about this. I realized I am so different from my other friends. I often cried softly in my bed at night whenever I think about this. I blamed my parents for not taking good care of me when I was a child. I searched for answers to my predicament. I went to Christianity. I believed in those healing miracles stuff. I went to one of those healing sessions but was utterly disappointed. I couldn't find a satisfactory answer. I continued to blame my parents. Then I began to read up on Buddhism. I read about kamma. Slowly and slowly, I came to realize that all that is this very existence is simply kamma. It is kamma that I am deaf. I have no one to blame except myself. To blame my parents is to deny the existence of kamma. Before I came to know about Buddhism and kamma, I blamed Jesus Christ as well. I always thought: it's not my fault that I am deaf, it must be God's fault then. I hated God ever since when I was not healed by him. Blaming others is very easy to do. But it is not easy to accept one's kamma. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19528 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 10:46pm Subject: Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hello Swee Boon, Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate your sharing of a little more about your early life. It must have been difficult and lonely for you at times. Swee Boon, for you to turn out as you have - an educated, ethical, articulate person shows what courage and persistence you had, and still have, to overcome barriers and make your way in life. Many of us do know what it is like to have a childhood filled with sadness and trauma. It's just that we tend to forget when we are talking to an adult that once they, too, may have suffered. I think James and Sarah both touched on the fact that suffering could be looked on as a good thing (eventually) - as it is suffering that is the stimulus for us to seek a way out, or at least an explanation. Neither you nor I would probably have found the Dhamma but for suffering. And KenH gave the example of lives as like a ride on a Ferris Wheel whereby we all pass through every possible wonderful and terrible type of life - so no-one is better or worse than another, they are just having different experiences at this moment. Your post raises some questions for me, and I hope you will help me clarify the Teachings - You say: "It is unfortunate, but does that mean it's not her own fault? It's her kamma that causes her not to have an education in this life. It's as simple as that." My question here is: 'Is every single aspect of what happens to us Kamma?' Really, I don't know. If it is, how should we regard someone in poor circumstances, the starving, someone with ill health, refugees, a victim of a vicious assault, someone who has become bankrupt? Should we think 'they deserve it'? Wouldn't that just lead to callousness and selfishness? And how does Anatta fit in here? Who did the bad kamma, who inherits the vipaka? The same one, so we're told by the scriptures - but how does it work when there is no-self. I understand what you are saying about Abhidhamma [I hope RobertK will say a little more on that topic, whether or not James responds] - but shouldn't we still try to change conditions that are causing misery to people? Maybe it is also their vipaka that they receive help, and don't have to endure unalleviated suffering? Wouldn't we be creating kusala kamma by feeling compassion and metta and easing others pain and difficulties? (I am a Social Worker in a hospital - all day, every day I work with suffering people.) Yes, it has occurred to me that I am placing too much emotional emphasis on a few suttas. (And it has been pointed out by TG as well.) I tend to be like that, but it's O.K. - I actually do listen to others and when a little emotional reaction dies down, I consider deeply what they say. I think we will have to agree to disagree about men's and women's 'wit' and being 'addicted to sex'. I could dig up numerous sociological, biological and anthropological treatises - but that's not what we are here for, and we can go to Sociology-L or Anthopology- L for those discussions. I may disagree with you on those mundane subjects - but I have been learning a lot from your posts on Dhamma, Swee Boon, and hope to continue to do so in the future. I thank you for the opportunity. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Just to add some more. > > I am deaf in my left ear since childhood. The doctor said it was > because of a high fever. When I was a teenager, I suddenly felt very > very very sad about this. I realized I am so different from my other > friends. I often cried softly in my bed at night whenever I think > about this. > > I blamed my parents for not taking good care of me when I was a > child. I searched for answers to my predicament. I went to > Christianity. I believed in those healing miracles stuff. I went to > one of those healing sessions but was utterly disappointed. I > couldn't find a satisfactory answer. I continued to blame my parents. > > Then I began to read up on Buddhism. I read about kamma. Slowly and > slowly, I came to realize that all that is this very existence is > simply kamma. It is kamma that I am deaf. I have no one to blame > except myself. To blame my parents is to deny the existence of kamma. > > Before I came to know about Buddhism and kamma, I blamed Jesus > Christ as well. I always thought: it's not my fault that I am deaf, > it must be God's fault then. I hated God ever since when I was not > healed by him. > > Blaming others is very easy to do. But it is not easy to accept > one's kamma. > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19529 From: azita gill Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 11:03pm Subject: RE: [dsg] negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women --- azita gill wrote: > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear > Christine & All, > > > > How I study the texts is when I read something, do > I > > understand the reasoning/the truth behind this? > If > > I don't, > > I leave it aside, as regardless of how much I > > speculate > > whether or not the Buddha has said this, I cannot > > conclusively prove it in any way. There are tons > of > > text > > related to Buddhist literature, read what brings > > about > > wisdom and wholesome qualities, and leave the rest > > until we > > can understand it. > dear Kom and others, don't really know what happened with that last e.mail - I apologise, must have hit a wrong button, must be because I'm a stupid dull-witted woman! Chris, I'm not making fun, and if Buddha did say these things, then maybe there is a reason that we don't know about - yet. But I do think that what Kom has stated is quite wise, and that if there are things that we don't understand or dislike, to leave them for a while and come back another time, maybe it won't be so hurtful next time. Just keep in mind this present moment is really all there is, no Buddha, no time of the Buddha, no Bangkok, no me no you, just arise and fall, constanly, of these present moments. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita http://greetings.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Greetings - Send some online love this Valentine's Day. 19530 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 11:57pm Subject: RE: [dsg] 1000 year prediction Hi Andrew, The 1st 1000 years are ones with Arahants with the 4 discriminations. The 2nd 1000 years are ones with Arahants (at most), albeit without the 4 discriminations (and I heard from others that without any supernormal power either). The 3rd 1000 years (where we are at) are ones with Anagami (at most) The 4th 1000 years are ones with Sagatagami (at most) The 5th 1000 years are ones with sotapanna (at most). The commentaries mentioned that in this sutta, only the 1st 1000 year is is meant, i.e., the Buddha was only talking about a dispensation perfect in both Samatha and Vipassana. As far as the complete disappearance of the Dispensation, after the 5th 1000 year is meant. Please let me know if this still confusing. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew > [mailto:athel60@t...] > Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:06 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] 1000 year prediction > 19531 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hey Azita, and Kom, and all, Glad your post finally made it. Especially as I'd somehow missed Kom's post altogether! I agree with you Azita, Kom's post is wise. I especially like "read what brings about wisdom and wholesome qualities, and leave the rest until we can understand it." (Appreciate :-)) And thank you for your reminders about the present moment. "Just keep in mind this present moment is really all there is, no Buddha, no time of the Buddha, no Bangkok, no me no you, just arise and fall, constantly, of these present moments." No Bangkok? ... I would have liked it better if you had said 'No Airfares'. :-) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, azita gill wrote: > --- azita gill wrote: > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear > > Christine & All, > > > > > > How I study the texts is when I read something, do > > I > > > understand the reasoning/the truth behind this? > > If > > > I don't, > > > I leave it aside, as regardless of how much I > > > speculate > > > whether or not the Buddha has said this, I cannot > > > conclusively prove it in any way. There are tons > > of > > > text > > > related to Buddhist literature, read what brings > > > about > > > wisdom and wholesome qualities, and leave the rest > > > until we > > > can understand it. > > > dear Kom and others, > don't really know what happened with that last > e.mail - I apologise, must have hit a wrong button, > must be because I'm a stupid dull-witted woman! > Chris, I'm not making fun, and if Buddha did say > these things, then maybe there is a reason that we > don't know about - yet. But I do think that what Kom > has stated is quite wise, and that if there are things > that we don't understand or dislike, to leave them for > a while and come back another time, maybe it won't be > so hurtful next time. > Just keep in mind this present moment is really > all there is, no Buddha, no time of the Buddha, no > Bangkok, no me no you, just arise and fall, constanly, > of these present moments. > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita 19532 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Num, (Nina, James, Ven Yanatharo & All), I’m always glad to see you around, Num;-). I hope your recent posts which remind me of your former posts from the States are an indication that you're adapting well to work and life in Bangkok now. ..... --- Nantawat Sitdhiraksa wrote: > Rgd. abhidhamma, suttanta, vinaya, or the tipitaka, to me personally, > it's just a name. The Buddha taught us about reality, > I question all the 3 baskets. I mean when I read or listen, with my > little understanding, I ask, question, or reflect of what I just read or > listened. ..... You always make me smile. I appreciate your comments. Until DSG was set up, I had never really considered questions about nibbana, parinibbana or the origins of the Abhidhamma and details of the Councils. I realise, far more now, that as we all have different inclinations and approaches, different people need to hear about different aspects in order to really appreciate the truths about realities. In this regard, I appreciate it can be difficult for some to read or consider anything from the Abhidhamma if they consider it is not the Buddha’s Teachings as Ven. Yanatharo and James have suggested. As you say, these views are very common. Sometimes, perhaps, we need to look at ‘external’ details as well as ‘internal’ ones to clarify perhaps. What do you think? Quite some time ago on a similar thread, James made some comments and posted a link to: "Theravada Buddhism; A Chronology" Edited by John Bullitt http://www.accesstoinsight.org/history.html ..... I don’t think anyone responded and I’ve only just remembered to check the article myself. There is a lot of helpful information, but I notice that the detailed chronology and details about the various Councils come from other modern texts rather than from any of the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries themselves. I’m not sure if ancient commentaries, such as those by Buddhaghosa are considered less reliable for any reason, but for my part, I find the ancient texts to be generally more trustworthy with regard to any aspects of the Teachings. For example, the article states: “The recitation of the Vinaya by Ven. Upali becomes accepted as the Vinaya Pitaka; the recitation of the Dhamma by Ven. Ananda becomes established as the Sutta Pitaka. {1,4}” ***** This is according to two other modern commentators cited at the end of the article. According to all the ancient commentaries I’ve looked at (none of which are referred to at all for this article), the Dhamma as in ‘Dhamma Vinaya’ refers to the Sutta Pitaka AND the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I discussed this in my series from the commentary to the Vinaya under ‘vinaya’ in ‘Useful Posts’. Further on, there is a suggestion that the Abhidhamma was only recited at the Third Council*, but to my understanding, it is only the Kathavatthu (Points of controversy)that is taught at a later date as instructed by the Buddha after issues would only arise later. The Table of Contents was already established at the outset. More details are given in some of the posts under ‘Abhidhamma-origins’ in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts If most modern scholarship rejects the commentaries and then rejects suttas not told by the Buddha himself but by key disciples and then say, suttas, Jatakas or parts of the vinaya which seem out-dated, or difficult to comprehend (as you find some of the Jataka details), perhaps this is just an indication of the decline of the Teachings as predicted and being discussed. Already some of the commentaries are no longer available, I believe. Maybe Rob or others will add more details. The fact that the Abhidhamma was passed on to Sariputta first (in this plane) and by Sariputta to other key disciples before being rehearsed by the Great Arahants is neither here nor there as far as I see it. We just read about Rahula who was able to hear a little and immediately comprehend a vast amount of detail, so even more so in Sariputta’s case. I’ve also given quotes before in which the Buddha makes it clear that listening to the words of these key disciples is just the same as listening to his own words and that when this occurs it is still the Buddha’s Teaching. I sincerely believe that as Nina wrote, the appreciation and confidence in the authenticity or validity of the Abhidhamma can only come from ‘inside’ and not ‘outside’. Nina wrote: “The Buddha, when he attained Buddhahood realized the truth of all dhammas. These are contained in the Tipitaka. He gave the nucleus of the Abhidhamma to Sariputta. The textual order of the Abhidhamma originated with Sariputta. I can say more on this, but I shall wait for Sarah. These are external arguments. What matters most to me: what is the message the Buddha taught me. These are the internal arguments.” ..... (Btw Nina, I’ve caught up, but never any need to wait for me;-) I’ll be glad to hear any further details you have to share. I know others would be interested to hear these too.) ..... Nina wrote further: “We can see that Suttanta and Vinaya also contains Abhidhamma, as I pointed out before. The Buddha speaks about the five khandhas, time and again. What else are these but citta, cetasika and rupa. Mike reminded us that the Upanisa Sutta contains Abhidhamma: the Dependent Origination. And so it is with many other suttas. The Great Elephant's Footprint Discourse gives us many details on rupas, internal and external. If people would only know what the message is that is contained in the Abhidhamma they would have a growing respect and appreciation of it.” ..... Nina also showed in her article on ‘translation’ how the understanding gained from the Abhidhamma affects the comprehension of the suttas and how the same phenomena are taught in all 3 baskets. I think we've seen many examples here of how a little knowledge from the Abhidhamma helps the understanding of a sutta. I think Kom gave a good understanding of this when he gave some detail about 'ayatanas sense-fields' to explain terms translated by ideas and intellect in the Sabba Sutta (The All), which I don't believe could be understood without clarification. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m14311.html I liked your comment (Num) here: Num: “I question all the 3 baskets. I mean when I read or listen, with my little understanding, I ask, question, or reflect of what I just read or listened. Personally, I have a harder time with vinaya and suttanta, esp. the jataka. Because I am always carried away by the story. For example, why there are elephants on a heavenly plane, why the country in the jataka is always ruled by a king (not a Prime Minister or a President), why the city in the jataka is always located in a tropical climate, the snow is not mentioned much in the tipitaka. A.Sujin always reminds us that the tipitaka is not about a story, abhidhamma is not something just to read, recite, and memorize. Knowing the name of dhamma is not equal to seeing dhamma. Understanding the story in suttanta or vinaya, does not mean understanding dhamma.” ..... As Kom and others have suggested, sometimes we need to put various parts of the Tipitaka aside at times. You may need to put aside some Jatakas, someone else parts of the Abhidhamma. For me, when I look at an Abhidhamma text that I really don’t understand at all, it still doesn't disturb me. However, what I had a hard time with recently and put aside was “the Peta Stories” and its excellent commentary transl by Masefield. I just found the accounts of the rebirths in the Peta realms too harrowing, such as the slanderous monk who roasted in hell and then was reborn as a peta with a putrid smelling mouth devoured by worms or the far more disturbing one still about the woman who caused her ‘co-wife’ to miscarry and then told a bad lie and ended up as a hideous peta, giving birth each morning and evening to five sons which she’d devour and never be satisfied, scorched with hunger and unable to get water to drink. I have an idea a little along the lines of learning from our ‘enemies’, that we can also learn most from the Tipitaka accounts we find most disturbing. I just took out the Peta Stories now to check a detail and find I’m much less disturbed than before - even some wise reflection as I type the reminders. I also like to consider just why they are disturbing for me and I think it is the danger of present akusala deeds. You (Num) gave another good set of comments here: “A.Sujin said that one can read and memorize all the detail, the ingredients, and the method of cooking from a book, but never know how does the food taste ( at that moment, I thought of my Saveur cook book series at home, definitely with lobha, no doubt). One may read a lot about vinaya, sutta, or abhidhamma but never sees the true characteristic of dhamma( like reading, memorizing a cook book). That leaded us back to discussion on satipatthana, sati, panna, and satisampajana. Sati, mindfulness, of the characteristic of the reality(nama, rupa) is like tasting a food. No word needed to describe it, but we know how does it taste.” ..... The taste and test are definitely at this moment. Like you and Nina have said, I don’t think we need to distinguish between suttanta and abhidhamma. What is of value is learning about realities that can be experienced and known at this moment. the considering, the checking and the questioning you mention, whatever we’re studying, will be most useful. Metta, Sarah ===== *The other question, I think, might be that if the Abhidhamma was not taught by the Buddha, who else could it have been taught by? In the preface to the ‘Discourse on Elements’, Thein Nyun adds these comments: “The Abhidhamma is so abstruse, profound and subtle that only Enlightened Buddhas are able to give a complete exposition of it because of their Omniscience in three respects:- 1) perfect knowledge of all the things knowable which are a) conditioned; b) subject to change; c)characteristics or qualities of things; d)Nibbana, and e)concepts. 2) Perfect knowledge of the various kinds of expositions for teaching the above in detail. 3) Perfect knowledge of all beings who are worthy and unworthy of instruction for deliverence. A lot of detail is given about 3)such as the nature of minds in past existences and so on. ........................... 19533 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 5:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)4.Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers Dear Htoo, --- "htootintnaing " wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > After Permanent and Flexible ministers(cetasikas) have been > described,here destructive ministers will be delineated.They destroy > the place they home. I really like your brief summaries and 'destructive ministers' is such a good name for the kilesa. When they all join forces, some together and some in succession, we can see the poor cittas stand no chance of leading in any wise deeds or actions. I look forward to more summaries and if you can help share with those who have no confidence in the Abhidhamma (see my last post) any comments that might be helpful, I'd be very glad. With metta, Sarah ======= 19534 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 6:53am Subject: Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi Christine Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate them. > My question here is: 'Is every single aspect of what happens to us > Kamma?' Really, I don't know. Yes. In fact, we are all kamma. "Swee Boon" is kamma. "Christine" is kamma. "Child X" who is starving in Africa is kamma. Each and every being is nothing but kamma. There is no self to be found in this Great Compounded Mess. There is only kamma to be found. "Beings are the owners of their kamma, heir to their kamma, born of their kamma, related through their kamma, and have their kamma as their arbitrator. Kamma is what creates distinctions among beings in terms of coarseness & refinement." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html > If it is, how should we regard someone in poor circumstances, the > starving, someone with ill health, refugees, a victim of a vicious > assault, someone who has become bankrupt? Should we think 'they > deserve it'? Wouldn't that just lead to callousness and selfishness? Is there any self to be found in the five aggregates? If not, is the thinking 'they deserve it' valid? To think in this way might be better: 'Such are the five aggregates. Such is kamma. Such is coarseness. Such is refinement.'. It does not allude to a self. For me, thinking in this way leads to less and less attachment to the view of a self. It doesn't lead to callousness and selfishness. Instead, it leads to a [more] dispassioned view of existence. It leads to a kind of 'detached' compassion that does not allude to a self. > And how does Anatta fit in here? Who did the bad kamma, who inherits > the vipaka? The same one, so we're told by the scriptures - but how does > it work when there is no-self. It's not the same one, neither is it a different one. Is there any self to be found in the five aggregates? If not, is the thinking 'who did the bad kamma, who inherits the vipaka' valid? Is there any self to be found in this kamma called "Swee Boon"? Is there any self to be found in this kamma called "Christine"? Is there any self to be found in this kamma called "Child X" who is starving in Africa? Through ignorance, clinging and craving, [one] is not dispassioned with regards to the present five aggregates. In [one who is] not dispassioned as such, [one] commits kusala and akusala actions. In [one] who commits kusala and akusala actions, there comes renewed existence as another set of five aggregates. This process repeats itself infinitely for [one who is] not dispassioned. Is there any self to be found in this process? If there is a self, why are you caught up in it and are now unable to escape from its clutches? "What is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect. This is called new kamma." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html > I understand what you are saying about Abhidhamma [I hope RobertK > will say a little more on that topic, whether or not James responds] - > but shouldn't we still try to change conditions that are causing > misery to people? Maybe it is also their vipaka that they receive > help, and don't have to endure unalleviated suffering? Wouldn't we > be creating kusala kamma by feeling compassion and metta and easing > others pain and difficulties? (I am a Social Worker in a hospital - > all day, every day I work with suffering people.) It's not wrong to feel compassion and ease others' pain and difficulties. But we must also see kamma as kamma. When we try to change conditions for the better, this is also kamma; there is kusala kamma being committed. But to put the blame on "societal problem" is not right view. Regarding sexual intercourse, I do find Anguttara Nikaya IV.159 interesting reading. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-159.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19535 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about wom... Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/9/03 9:55:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > "What is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & > willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... > The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & > willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. > > "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, > with speech, or with the intellect. This is called new kamma." > > ============================= Yes - eye, ear, tongue, body, and mind are all old kamma. And, yes, the attack one makes with one's body, speech, or intellect on another is new kamma. That attack is not necessarily at all the vipaka of one's victim; the kammic debt is one's own, and there is usually no legitimate justification to be made in term's of the kamma of the victim. The degree of involvement of the victim's kamma as condition for the attack on that victim can range from considerable to none, it is generally unknown, and, except when crystal clear, it should not be presumed in one's "moral computations". At least that is how I see the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19536 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 9:26am Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about wom... Hi Howard, > The degree of involvement of the victim's kamma as condition for > the attack on that victim can range from considerable to none, it > is generally unknown, and, except when crystal clear, it should > not be presumed in one's "moral computations". I note that you said "condition for the attack". On account of this, I agree with you that this is the case if the attack had not occurred yet. But what happens if the victim is "already attacked"? > That attack is not necessarily at all the vipaka of one's victim; > the kammic debt is one's own, and there is usually no legitimate > justification to be made in term's of the kamma of the victim. I note that you said "the attack", meaning that the attack had already occurred. If it had already occurred, this is the vipaka of the victim. This is how I see it. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19537 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 9:42am Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about wom... Hi Howard, Just to clarify further, I meant one's kamma need not be the cause of the attack. But nevertheless, it is vipaka for the victim who is attacked. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19538 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 10:07am Subject: RE: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Dear Christine & Swee Boon, > -----Original Message----- > From: nidive [mailto:nidive@y...] > > It's not wrong to feel compassion and ease > others' pain and > difficulties. But we must also see kamma as > kamma. When we try to > change conditions for the better, this is also > kamma; there is > kusala kamma being committed. But to put the > blame on "societal > problem" is not right view. I think it would be good to feel compassion toward other people and help when we can. We should understand that all these (kamma, vipaka, compassion, helping others, sadness, etc.) are all conditioned dhammas. When its conditions are ripe, the dhamma comes to be, and then it completely falls away. No self found anywhere... > > Regarding sexual intercourse, I do find Anguttara > Nikaya IV.159 > interesting reading. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an0 4-159.html From B. Bodhi's note: AA said the nun sent for the V. Ananda because she was in love with him. This explains why she apologized at the end and why the V. offered this specific teaching to her. Again, this tells us the strength of this sort of kilesa, which is not specific only to women... kom 19539 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 6:03am Subject: "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, all - The following is a link to an article by Santikaro Bhikkhu that is relevant to current discussions. Warning: It is not Abhidhamma-based. ;-)) The article is not technical, nor is it highly intellectual, nor is it "amazingly deep". It is, however, an article which I much appreciate and loudly applaud. With metta, Howard Click here: Karma: Did they Deserve It? /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19540 From: bodhi342 Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 11:16am Subject: Re: Parameters The Buddha declared "I teach only suffering and the cessation of suffering." Dear Sarah and All, It is a delight to discuss aspects of the Dhamma with you. I don't know you, but some of your qualities come through clearly - patience, gentleness, consideration, tolerance, expertise and intelligence. May the world have more 'concepts' like you :-). S: I think that the more that is understood about the meaning of 'suffering' as taught by the Buddha, the more easily your question will be answered;-) Only by clearly understanding phenomena as namas and rupas, as khandhas and as elements, can dukkha really be understood as taught by the Buddha. D: I gather you mean the 'unsatisfactory' aspect in its full measure, instead of the easier to comprehend dukkha-dukkha and change. I am led here to understand that all reality is Dukkha (broadly defined). If that is correct, how does this resonate with my superficial understanding of the Simsappa Sutta as mentioned in an earlier response to Mike? I am curious why so much is included (packed) in the designated hitter 'Dukkha'; when there is such an elaborate classification, sub- classification and so on, of all the other elements etc. Understanding dukkha, and possibly the even more elusive Anatta, must take time and effort. I sense my disadvantage here, but possibly not even the full extent of it :-/. S: So we read about the various proximate causes and I think that understanding about conditions and causes helps us to know more about the conditionality of phenomena that arise and pass away accordingly. No self involved to cause anything. D: Even in the Upanisa Sutta, there is an avoidance of 'first' cause as opposed to 'proximate' cause. He does not go beyond ignorance (the primary root of the mundane series). I took that to indicate that the Buddha was concentrating on Dukkha, rather than that he thought there was no first cause. It occurs, that some other teachings address first cause to various degrees and in various ways. Hence, one of the reasons for my suggestion of their being complimentary. I have no doubt that the Buddha's treatment of (at least) dukkha- dukkha is the most comprehensive that I have come across so far. As far as the important third 'unsatisfactory' aspect is concerned however, there seem to be other (i.e. non-Buddhist) approaches to this state. Therefore, the corollary question here has to be: are we limiting our sense of reality to include only that discussed specifically by the Buddha, whose intention presumably was only to address a specific, albeit large, portion of reality? Are we ignoring other aspects, just because he did not teach about them? He himself seems to say, that he is being selective, does he not? S: We can see that all realities depend on various conditions and the wisdom that knows this is the second stage of insight. D: All realities? Is there no room for unconditioned realities i.e. "........"? Will send this off now, although only a portion of your messages has been addressed here, will await your answers before proceeding. with metta to one who personifies the very word, dharam 19541 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 0:15pm Subject: Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation, no 5. Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation, no 5. Conclusion regarding the analysis of the second issue: When one performs kusala kamma or akusala kamma throught the body, bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti rúpa, does not always arise and hence it is not always be the doorway of kamma. The reasons given for this conclusion: 1. When it is said that the body-door is bodily intimation, kåya viññatti, it means, when one performs kusala kamma or akusala kamma through the body, that at that moment an intention is displayed through the body, such as when giving the command to kill. However, each time one performs kusala kamma or akusala kamma, bodily intimation is not necessarily the doorway of kamma. We read in the ³Dispeller of Delusion² (Commentary to the ³Book of Analysis²), Ch 6, Classification of the Structure of Conditions, Suttanta Division (Ignorance has twentyfive characteristics, by the doors of kamma, 144): ³ Kåyasañcetanå (volition through the body) is the round of twenty volitions, namely the eight profitable volitions and the twelve unprofitable volitions of the sense sphere proceeding from the body-door by arousing bodily intimation...² In this context the commentator wants to speak about the body-door of bodily intimation, kåya viññatti, that is, when a meaning is conveyed through the body at the moment kamma is performed. In that case, the nonad of bodily intimation (the eight inseparable rúpas and bodily intimation), or the dodecad of bodily intimation (the eight inseparable rúpas, the three rúpas of changeability and bodily intimation) arise. However, this does not mean that each time one performs kamma through the body there must necessarily be kåya viñnnatti as doorway. There may only be cetanå, volition, which motivates a deed through the body without the intention to convey a meaning. In that case kamma is performed through the body-door without the arising of kåya viññatti. We should carefully consider the different cases of kamma performed through the body. The groups of rúpa originating from citta that motivates kamma through the body may be without viññatti rúpa. In that case the undecad of lightness (a group of eleven rúpas) arises; this group includes the three vikåra rúpas (of changeability) arising together with the four great Elements, and then the Element of Wind, våyo-dhåtu, can condition motion. However, the vikåra rúpas are not the doorway. Whereas when viññatti rúpa is the doorway of kamma, this happens when an intention is displayed through the body which is in that case the condition for the performing of kamma. 2. With regard to the section on killing, it has not been explained in the texts that there must necessarily be a wish to display a meaning by means of bodily intimation. The types of kamma performed through the body are diverse. Thus, the citta that motivates kamma performed through the body does not always produce kåya viññatti. When it does produce kåya viññatti, this rúpa is the doorway of kamma, for example, when a command to kill is given through the body. ***** The end. 19542 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 0:15pm Subject: Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, Co and a cross reference.no 4. frwd from Pali yahoo. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, Co and a cross reference.no 4. We read in the Commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaada sutta: Cross-reference: In the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" the four great Elements are explained in detail by Sariputta. First he teaches the four noble Truths. All kusala dhammas are included in (come together in) the four noble truths: He then explains what dukkha is, ending with: in short, the five khandhas of clinging are dukkha. Sariputta explained in detail about the four great elements of earth, water, fire and wind. They are the basis for all the other derived ruupas. For example, colour could not arise alone, it has to be together with these four great elements. And so it is with sound and all other ruupas. The elements of earth (hardness or softness), fire (heat or cold) and wind (motion or pressure) can be experienced by touch, not the element of water, cohesion which cxan only be experienced through the mind. This sutta reminds us that there is hardness (earth) in the body, but also outside. When we touch hardness there is no difference, however, we do not like to hear this. We find the body very special. Rahula was clinging so much to attaabhaava, but he had to develop vipassanaa pa~n~naa, to realize that there is not the whole body; that what we take for my body are only different elements which fall away immediately. Sariputta spoke about the impermanence of outward rupas in explaining about the calamities in nature. Evenso the rupas of the body are impermanent, they fall away immediately. As we have read in the Co to the Mahaaraahulovaada sutta: Rahula had to develop understanding not only of rupa, also of nama, of all khandhas. When we take them all as a whole, there is the idea of a person. Hearing is nama, a citta that experiences sound, it is not the rupa that is sound, it is no the rupa that is earsense. Understanding this, not only by reflection, but by direct understanding of the characteristics of the elements as they appear one at a time must lead to detachment. Clinging to the idea of "I, mine" can decrease. As we read in the Mahaarahulovaadasutta: This can have a great impact upon our life. As is explained in the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28): < Ta~n-ce aavuso bhikku.m, pare akkosanti paribhaasanti rosenti vihesenti, so eva.m pajaanaati: Upannaa kho me aya.m sotasamphassajaa dukkhaa vedanaa, saa ca kho pa.ticca no appa.ticca, ki.m pa.ticca: phassa.m pa.ticca. So: phasso anicco ti passati, vedanaa aniccaa ti passati, sa~n~naa aniccaa ti passati, sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa ti passati, vi~n~naana.m aniccanti passati.> (translation of Wheel 101) : So then if others abuse and scold and curse and threaten a bhikkhu, he understands thus, "This painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. That is dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact." Then he sees that contact is impermanent.." the same for feeling, sa~n~naa, san"khaarakkhandha and vi~n~naa.na. We then read: < Tassa dhaataaramma.na.m-eva citta.m pakkhandati pasiidati santi.t.thati adhimuccati> And his mind enters into that very object (taking it just as an impersonal) element, and acquires confidence, steadiness and decision (herein). How true for daily life: what we hear or see can be disconcerting, be it only a little or very much. Knowing that what we see or hear are just conditioned elements reminds us of the true Dhamma. If equanimity does not persist in the bhikkhu, he should arouse a sense of urgency (sa.mvega.m aapajjati) as is stated in the sutta. A sense of urgency to develop right understanding at this very moment. We are bound to be distressed about an unpleasant experience or a loss, but when we begin to develop pa~n~naa we can gradually learn from such an experience. Sometimes, when there are conditions, we may even be glad and full of confidence in the Triple Gem, as we also read in this sutta: < Tassa ce aavuso bhikkhuno eva.m Buddha.m anussarato eva.m Dhamma.m anussarato eva.m Sa"nga.m anussarato upekhaa kusalanissitaa sa.n.thaati, so tena attamano hoti...> But if, when a bhikkhu recollects the enlightened One, the Teaching and the Community, equanimity with the beneficial (kusala dhamma) as its support, becomes established in him, then he is satisfied (attamano, delighted ). Sariputta also spoke here about the Buddha's Discourse on the "Parable of the Saw": "Even if bandits brutally severed limb from limb with a two-handled saw, he who entertained hate in his heart on that account would not be one who carried out my teaching." Sariputta explained the conditions for seeing, for the other sense-cognitions and for the experiences through the mind-door, and he explained that the five khandhas have arisen because of conditions. He referred to the Dependent Origination, and he explained that clinging to the five khandhas is the cause of dukkha, whereas the eradication of clinging is the cessation of dukkha. When we see how beneficial the Dhamma is, and how true, we can recollect the Triple Gem with gratefulness and confidence. Nina. P.S. Pali is meant for reading aloud or reciting. We can try to recite some passages. But most important: gradually learning to apply what the Sutta teaches us here. 19543 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 0:15pm Subject: Abhidhamma and Sariputta Dear friends, We read about Sariputta in Wheel 90-92: Nina. 19544 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 2:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 6:53 AM Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) > Hi Christine > > Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate them. > > > > My question here is: 'Is every single aspect of what happens to us > > Kamma?' Really, I don't know. > > Yes. In fact, we are all kamma. "Swee Boon" is kamma. "Christine" is > kamma. "Child X" who is starving in Africa is kamma. Each and every > being is nothing but kamma. There is no self to be found in this > Great Compounded Mess. There is only kamma to be found. > According to the Sutta Pitaka the answer is no. While the vast majority of what happens to us is based on kamma, not all is the result of kamma. From the Sivaka Sutta, from the Connected Discourses, Samyutta Nikaya Vol 2 page 1278... The Buddha speaking: "Some feelings, Sivaka, arise here originating from phlegm disorders...originating from wind disorders....originating from an imbalance (of the three)....produced by change of climate....produced by careless behavior...caused by assault...produced as a result of kamma: how some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world. Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, 'Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past, ' they overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins." The Sutta ends with a listing of these 8 things which can give rise to experiences or what happens to us.... "Bile, phlegm, and also wind, Imbalance and climate too, Carelessness and assault, With kamma result as the eight." Metta, Ray 19545 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Way 48, Comm, Clear Comprehension "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, p. 61 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Sampajanakari = "Practicing clear comprehension." Doing without fail all actions with clear comprehension [sampajaññena sabba kicca kari]. Or the doing of only clear comprehension [sampajaññasseva va kari]. [Tika] Clear comprehension [sampajananam] = comprehending clearly [sampajanam]. Both words mean the same thing; their difference is only one of affix. Doing without fail all actions with clear comprehension is the character of doing what ought to be done by oneself, with clear comprehension [attana kattabba kiccassa karana sila]. The doing of only clear comprehension is the character of practicing clear comprehension [sampajanassa karana sila]. For the yogi practices only clear comprehension and is nowhere bereft of clear comprehension, in going forwards and going backwards. There are these four kinds of comprehension: clear comprehension of purpose [satthaka sampajañña], of suitability [sappaya sampajañña], of resort [gocara sampajañña], and of non-delusion [asammoha sampajañña]. [T] The discerning of things rightly, entirely and equally is clear comprehension. Nothing else. This way of explanation is different from the commentary's. As it provides non-delusion in going forwards and backwards, the action of clear comprehension is practice of clear comprehension. Who has that practice of clear comprehension is (one) practicing clear comprehension. [T] What takes place together with the aim called growth according to the Dhamma is purpose. The clear comprehension of purpose in going forwards and backwards is clear comprehension of purpose. The clear comprehension of what is suitable, fit, to oneself is clear comprehension of suitability. The clear comprehension of the (mental) resort which is called the subject of meditation that is unrelinquished, in going backwards and forwards on the alms resort and elsewhere, is the clear comprehension of resort. Clear comprehension of non-delusion is non-delusion that is clearly comprehending and is called non-stupefaction. 19546 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about wom... Hi, Ray - In a message dated 2/9/03 5:01:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, rhendrickson1@e... writes: > The Sutta ends with a listing of these 8 things which can give rise to > experiences or what happens to us.... > > "Bile, phlegm, and also wind, > Imbalance and climate too, > Carelessness and assault, > With kamma result as the eight." > > ======================== Thank you for this, Ray! I find two types of conditions here particularly interesting. One of these is assault. This says a lot about where to attribute responsibility when one being attacks another - the answer is not the victim. The other type of condition that I find interesting is carelessness. Even this, which sometimes I would imagine actually could be kamma vipaka, is given as another type of cause. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19547 From: m. nease Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Sariputta (Excellent). ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 12:15 PM Subject: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Sariputta > Dear friends, > We read about Sariputta in Wheel 90-92: > Disciple who was endowed with analytical knowledge, as though the Buddha > stood on the edge of the shore and pointed out the ocean with his open hand. > To the Elder the doctrine taught by the blessed One in hundreds and > thousands of methods became very clear." Thereafter, the Elder passed on > what he had learnt to his five hundred disciples. > Further it is said: "The textual order of the abhidhamma originated from > Sariputta; the numerical series in the Great Book (Patthana) was also > determined by him. In this way the Elder, without spoiling the unique > doctrine, laid down the numerical series in order to make it easy to learn, > remember, study and teach the Law (Dhamma)." > Further on we read: > Buddha had this to say: > > "The Essence of the Dhamma (dhammadhatu) has been so well penetrated by > Sariputta, O monks, that if I were to quesion him therein for one day in > different words and phrases, Sariputta would reply likewise for one day in > various words and phrases. And if I were to question him for one night, or a > day and a night, or for two days and nights, even up to seven days and > nights, Sariputta would expound the matter for the same period of time, in > various words and phrases." (Nidana Samyutta, no 32) > In many suttas Sariputta was praised by the Buddha. He is called the general > of the Dhamma, he was very concerned to preserve the Dhamma and in his > systematic way ensured that it was transmitted intact in all details. > In the Discourse of the Elephant's Footprint (I made a little study of it > for Pali Yahoo) Sariputta teaches ultimate realities, beginning with the > four noble Truths, and he teaches in the same way as the Buddha. This sutta > is full of Abhidhamma, it is actually Abhidhamma that is taught here and > also its application in daily life. > We read in "Abhidhamma Studies" Ven. Nyanaponika, in his intro, a citation > from the Atthasalini:"He who excludes the Abhidhamma (from the Buddha-word) > damages the Conquerer's Wheel of Dhamma (jina-cakkam paharam deti). He > excludes thereby the Omniscience of the Tathagata and impoverishes the > grounds of the Master's Knowledge of Self-confidence" (vesaarajja-~naa.na to > which Omniscience belongs); he deceives an audience anxious to learn; he > obstructs (progress to) the Noble Paths of Holiness; he makes all the > eighteen causes of discord appear at once. By so doing he deserves the > disciplinary puishment of temporary segregation, or the reproof of the > assembly of monks." > We read further on: > 1. The Buddha has to be regarded as the first Abhidhammika, because, > according to the Atthasalini, "he has already penetrated the abhidhamma when > sitting under the tree of Enlightenment." > 2. "The Abhidhamma, the ultimate doctrine, is the domain of omniscient > Buddhas only, not the domain of others"(Atth). These profound teachings are > unmistakenbly the property of an enlightened being, a Buddha.> > Nina. 19548 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine and all, Someone may have already made this point, but I would like to say that cultivating revulsion and devalueing whatever is conventionally valued is one method of satipatthana, aimed at letting go of attachment. It isn't the only method and it isn't necessarily for everyone. It is what is appropriate for a certain "type". I think one can tell if a practice is the one for them if it produces the right results, it seems natural and easy, and one wants to do it again and again. One could possibly (??) say this is also the case in cultivating jhana, but I think genuine satipatthana will always immediately result in at least some degree of detachment, equanimity, calm, and understanding. I doubt if there could be a frenzied or busy satipatthana. Even if one looks at one's busyness and sees that it is not self, I think that busyness will immediately become calm and probably not very active, if one sees that it is really not self. I've been doing this with my own thoughts and have found that I really don't have anything to say at all. Thoughts continue to arise, but it seems there is no point in expressing, or even pursuing, them. So it's difficult to maintain the dialog. Personally, I like women a lot and think they are the best! Larry 19549 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation, no 5. Hi Nina, Is intimation concept or reality? Larry 19550 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 5:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi Ray, We have discussed this sutta before, and I think Nina translated the commentary. My reading is that it is wrong for brahmins who don't know any better to say everything is the result of kamma. They shouldn't overlook immediate cause and effect. It would be unprofitable to do so. But that doesn't mean that it isn't true that everything is the result of kamma, as, I think, abhidhamma suggests. Larry 19551 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 6:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha'steachings about women) > > We have discussed this sutta before, and I think Nina translated the > commentary. My reading is that it is wrong for brahmins who don't know > any better to say everything is the result of kamma. They shouldn't > overlook immediate cause and effect. It would be unprofitable to do so. > But that doesn't mean that it isn't true that everything is the result > of kamma, as, I think, abhidhamma suggests. > > Larry > > Hi Larry, Do you know how I could best go about trying to find that translation? Bodhi's notes, based on the commentaries, on the Sutta seem to support that view. "Feelings arisen directly from the other seven causes are not "feelings produced by kamma," even though kamma may function as an underlying cause of the illness, etc., responsible for the painful feelings. According to the Abhidhamma, all bodily painful feeling is the result of kamma, but it is not necessarily produced exclusively by kamma; kamma usually operates through more tangible networks of causality to yield its result." In another note Bodhi says "Thus kamma can still be an indirect cause for the painful feeling directly induced by the first seven causes. It is sufficient cause only in the eighth cases, though even then it must operate in conjunction with various other conditions." This seems a bit forced, almost makes kamma seem like some intelligent being acting through natural causes to produce a result. I think that still goes too far in not allowing for things like accidents unrelated to any karmic result. Thus I think a object can accidentally fall and hit your foot, but how you react to it is based on kamma. Are there any Suttas anyone knows that directly say that all experiences one has is directly the result of kamma? Thanks very much for the information Larry! Metta Ray 19552 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 9:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha'steachings about women) Hi Ray, --- Ray Hendrickson wrote: > > > Do you know how I could best go about trying to find that > translation? ..... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13094 Nina's transl of sutta and commentary.(In Useful Posts under Sutta translations if you lose it) Also if you keyed in 'Sivaka' in escribe search you'd probably be directed to a string of discussion. I haven't tried as I don't have time right now. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Metta, Sarah ======= 19553 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha'steachings about women) Hi Ray, Nina's translation is in the archives in several emails. Maybe Sarah can fish it out. Nina or Sarah would be better at answering your questions about abhidhamma. My impression is that all discussion of kamma eventually ends with the statment that only the Buddha understands it, but I think we want to maintain the view of an ethical nature to reality in order to avoid a nihilism. However, what we know or can understand seems to take precedence over speculative theory, even if the theory is Buddhist. Larry ps: this leads to the question of what is an ethical determinism. You'll have to discuss this with someone else. It makes my head hurt. L 19554 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 10:46pm Subject: Re: Abandoning Hi Jon and Howard, I am sorry if the following link has been brought into play previously. Jon, there is a question at the bottom of all of this. Thanks Herman http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-019.html "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > > The mindfulness that guards the sense-doors is clearly a high level > of kusala. Kusala, of whatever level, is not something that can be > 'practised' by anyone so minded, even the most well-intentioned of > persons. > Are you at odds in any way with the contents of this sutta? 19555 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 11:12pm Subject: Thunder & Lightning Hi all, We had a huge storm here on Saturday, got heaps of very welcome rain (78 mls), and our phone got knocked out by lightning. No Internet for two days. No dsg. So what does one do, besides working out how much one owes the tax man? Contemplate anatta, of course. The following things bubbled up out of nowhere, and I would appreciate your comments. It occured to me that anatta is reality, not view or right view, and that view, let's say self-view, is illusory. (there is no object in self-view) And further, that the consequences of self-view or other views are also illusory. (how can an illusory object be an agent or a victim) And that discussions about kamma/vipaka have no point of contact with reality, which is anatta. (kamma/vipaka are some of the rules to which illusions conform) And that nibbana equals anatta Having your phone knocked out isn't all bad :-) Herman 19556 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Howard, Let me start by quoting a paragraph I agreed with from the article: QUOTE "If our purpose is to participate in the collective social discourse on what happened and what our responses will be, skillful means require using concepts and language that non-Buddhists can understand. "Karma" is grossly misunderstood in the mainstream culture, including among mainstream Buddhists. Raising the term risks stirring up these misconceptions and burdening the discussion with unnecessary confusion. Which terms and concepts can get useful Buddhist perspectives across? This begs the questions, which perspectives are useful in this situation?" ***** --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > The following is a link to an article by Santikaro Bhikkhu that > is > relevant to current discussions. Warning: It is not Abhidhamma-based. > ;-)) > The article is not technical, nor is it highly intellectual, nor is it > "amazingly deep". It is, however, an article which I much appreciate and > loudly applaud. ..... Thanks for posting it. Many interesting topics are touched on. In the past you’ve also responded from time to time on discussions on kamma and I know that some of the areas touched on under headings such as "Personal Karmic Responsibility" and "Victimhood" in the article are somewhat ‘sensitive’, if I might put it that way. I agree that little is understood about kamma and it tends to be used as a ‘catch-all’ with little meaning. There are more and more refined ways to look at it and as Larry just pointed out, we always end by agreeing that only the Buddha understood all the real intricacies. I’d be glad if you’d read the following points and let me know if there are any you don’t agree with which we might disuss further: 1. What we take for situations are concepts and don’t exist as such. They can only be experienced by thinking. 2. Wars, terrorist attacks and so on are examples of such concepts. 3. What is actually experienced through the sense doorways (i.e not counting the mind-door) are visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, cohesion, temperature and pressure. Other realities/actualities are experienced through the mind-door as are concepts. 4. All the actualities arise depending on 24 conditions enumerated in detail in the Teachings. 5. One of these conditions is kamma, but when it acts as a condition, it must be supported by many other conditions. 6. Seeing, hearing and so on, are examples of actualities predominantly conditioned by kamma. Certain rupas are also kamma produced, eg masculinity/femininity, from the first moment of conception. 7. When we talk about the effect ot others’ actions on someone or some people, what is actually experienced by these people are moments of seeing, hearing and so on as usual - i.e vipaka cittas followed by accumulated tendencies and reactions. 8. In this way, although we can say the disturbing movie or the attack or praise and blame or the weather are the proximate causes (i.e condition by way of natural decisive-support condition), still there have to be the vipaka cittas conditioned by kamma to see and hear the particular visible objects, sounds and so on at the time. 9. Ultimately, what is important is not the vipaka that experienes pleasant and unpleasant objects, but the understanding and overcoming of ignorance. This is the only way to overcome suffering. 10. In other words, the proximate cause, eg the other’s harsh words or violent deeds, the weather and so on will also depend on many other factors beyond our control. The vipaka cittas are conditioned to experience just the objects they do as a result of kamma and other factors. The accumulated tendencies and development of equanimity and dispassion will depend on this very moment of wise consideration and understanding now. ..... I’ll be glad for any comments, Howard and they certainly don’t need to be technical, intellectual or Abhidhamma-based as far as I’m concerned;-) (Nina just quoted from the following sutta which I know we’ve discussed before: "As is explained in the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28): (translation of Wheel 101) : "So then if others abuse and scold and curse and threaten a bhikkhu, he understands thus, "This painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. That is dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact." Then he sees that contact is impermanent.." the same for feeling, sa~n~naa, san"khaarakkhandha and vi~n~naa.na." "Sariputta also spoke here about the Buddha's Discourse on the "Parable of the Saw": "Even if bandits brutally severed limb from limb with a two-handled saw, he who entertained hate in his heart on that account would not be one who carried out my teaching." Sariputta explained the conditions for seeing, for the other sense-cognitions and for the experiences through the mind-door, and he explained that the five khandhas have arisen because of conditions. He referred to the Dependent Origination, and he explained that clinging to the five khandhas is the cause of dukkha, whereas the eradication of clinging is the cessation of dukkha. When we see how beneficial the Dhamma is, and how true, we can recollect the Triple Gem with gratefulness and confidence." ) ***** I’ll also add the other paragraph from the article you raised at the end which I thought was well put. With metta, Sarah ------- QUOTE "Victimhood Victimhood is tricky. It involves a fair amount to clinging to "me" and "mine." May involve holding onto a hurt in order to define oneself. (Cf. Amos Oz on the Israeli-Palestinian situation.) This can be both individual and collective. Clinging to and identifying with wounds, past injustices, "what he/they did to me/us," and misfortune in itself creates and perpetuates suffering. This is one reason why Buddha-Dhamma sees beyond Karma into the more fundamental level of paticca-samuppada (dependent co-origination) and sunnata (emptiness of inherent self-existence). These realizations see through - but do not negate - the conventional level of persons, actors, and victims. They provide a way out of victimhood and guilt by removing the basis for all forms of greed, hatred, and delusion. Did you know that the Buddha mentioned a "karma that goes beyond all karma"? Ordinary karma is usually spoken of in terms of good, bad, and mixed. Then there is the transcendent karma of the noble eightfold path." ======================== 19557 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Dinesh, I am not a scholar either, so we'll be pretty safe talking to each other. I remember writing a 2000 word essay at Uni explaining to the lecturer why his question was meaningless and couldn't be answered. I didn't pass. And once, during a final exam, I answered a 3 hour paper in fifteen minutes. I suggested that economics wasn't a real subject, and that economic issues tend to get solved by war. (rings a bell?). Again, I didn't pass. I got a job instead, because my children couldn't eat books :-) I am a student of reality. Be well Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Diny@" wrote: > Well Egberdina, thanks for welcome. > I can't hate computers on friday also as Saturday is working day for me here. > Though I am not a scholar in Buddhisim. > So I wont be in Debate about teachings of Buddha. > But one thing I know about his Teachings is "Vipassana" > which can be used by own and all for the well being. > > Metta to all. > > regards, > -Dinesh > 19558 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 3:37am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Swee Boon, Please see below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > No, I don't. These are male dominated cultural impositions when > > women have had little choice and are valued only in certain roles > and > > if certain outcomes occur. > > Doesn't your statement "male-dominated cultural impositions" shows > that men have more wit than women? Men really does have more wit > than women in general. It's a fact. > Do you think wit is the means by which dominance is imposed? I wouldn't have thought that violence was particularly witty. Men are bigger than women, generally. It's a fact. Force and the threat of force require wit and the threat of wit. You be careful now :-) Herman 19559 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 4:33am Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi Ray & Howard > "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this > happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by > (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by > adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there > arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world > it is accepted as true. > "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person > experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous > action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the > world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-021.html (1) bile disorder - bodily feelings (2) phlegm disorder - bodily feelings (3) wind disorder - bodily feelings (4) imbalance of the above three - bodily feelings (5) change of climate - bodily feelings (6) careless (adverse) behaviour (inattentive care of body) - bodily feelings (7) assault (injuries) - bodily feelings We know that bodily feelings can only be of two types - pleasant and unpleasant. How then did the Buddha include the feeling of neither-pleasant-nor- unpleasant in his discourse? It doesn't make a lot of sense to say that only these seven causes of bodily feelings are not the result of kamma. What about the eye, ear, nose and tongue? Are there any feelings associated with the eye, ear, nose and tongue that is not the result of kamma? My take on this sutta is that the Buddha is talking about mental feelings. We know that mental feelings is not the result of kamma. Mental feelings is new kamma. The Buddha simply made a sweeping statement "by the results of Kamma -- (through all that)" in the last since Sivaka must be an ascetic who knows what is meant by "results of Kamma". The Buddha need not give any more enumerations of the "results of Kamma" any further. Sivaka understood what it means. It would probably take a lifetime for the Buddha to enumerate on the different types of "results of Kamma" to Sivaka. I feel that my interpretation is more in line with what the Buddha taught on kamma elsewhere in the scriptures and Abhidhamma. Nina's post is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13094 Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19560 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) > My take on this sutta is that the Buddha is talking about mental > feelings. We know that mental feelings is not the result of kamma. > Mental feelings is new kamma. > > The Buddha simply made a sweeping statement "by the results of > Kamma -- (through all that)" in the last since Sivaka must be an > ascetic who knows what is meant by "results of Kamma". The Buddha > need not give any more enumerations of the "results of Kamma" any > further. Sivaka understood what it means. It would probably take a > lifetime for the Buddha to enumerate on the different types > of "results of Kamma" to Sivaka. > > I feel that my interpretation is more in line with what the Buddha > taught on kamma elsewhere in the scriptures and Abhidhamma. > > Nina's post is here: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13094 > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > Hi NEO Swee Boon, Thanks very much for the link, and I thank Sarah also, I did the search and found the other posts. Frankly I think the Sutta can support both views, there was something else you said Swee Boon that I wanted to see expanded on. You said that mental feelings are not the result of kamma but the creation of kamma. It seems to me that mental feelings, positive, negative or neutral are both the result and creation of kamma. Does the Abhidhamma teach that mental feelings are not the result of kamma? Such feelings have to be conditioned and isn't kamma the primary conditioning agent here? Thanks very much for expanding on this....Ray 19561 From: Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/10/03 3:27:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Let me start by quoting a paragraph I agreed with from the article: > > QUOTE > "If our purpose is to participate in the collective social discourse on > what happened and what our responses will be, skillful means require using > concepts and language that non-Buddhists can understand. "Karma" is > grossly misunderstood in the mainstream culture, including among > mainstream Buddhists. Raising the term risks stirring up these > misconceptions and burdening the discussion with unnecessary confusion. > Which terms and concepts can get useful Buddhist perspectives across? This > begs the questions, which perspectives are useful in this situation?" quote> > ***** > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, all - > > > > The following is a link to an article by Santikaro Bhikkhu that > >is > >relevant to current discussions. Warning: It is not Abhidhamma-based. > >;-)) > >The article is not technical, nor is it highly intellectual, nor is it > >"amazingly deep". It is, however, an article which I much appreciate and > >loudly applaud. > ..... > Thanks for posting it. Many interesting topics are touched on. In the past > you’ve also responded from time to time on discussions on kamma and I know > that some of the areas touched on under headings such as "Personal Karmic > Responsibility" and "Victimhood" in the article are somewhat ‘sensitive’, > if I might put it that way. > > I agree that little is understood about kamma and it tends to be used as a > ‘catch-all’ with little meaning. There are more and more refined ways to > look at it and as Larry just pointed out, we always end by agreeing that > only the Buddha understood all the real intricacies. > > I’d be glad if you’d read the following points and let me know if there > are any you don’t agree with which we might disuss further: > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with most of the following points of yours, and those about which I have reservations are not dismissed in their entirety by me. The ones with which I have varying degrees of reservation about are (4) and (6). My reservation about (4) is minor, namely that it is unknown to me whether the 24 relations constitute a complete and correct analysis. (I do not presume that the Patthana came directly from the Buddha.) My reservation about (6) is with the word 'predominantly'. I don't know this to be true generally. I don't doubt at all, however, that one's own kamma is a condition for the experiences you mention. The mere fact of one's being in the given realm of experience is a kammically conditioned factor. BTW, there is another sense in which I would say that ALL experience is due to kamma, but that sense includes not only one's *own* kamma, but also the kamma of other namarupic streams. (I see namarupic streams as not isolated, but interacting.) The rest of your post, including your 10 principles, follows below without further comment from me. ============================ With metta, Howard > > 1. What we take for situations are concepts and don’t exist as such. They > can only be experienced by thinking. > > 2. Wars, terrorist attacks and so on are examples of such concepts. > > 3. What is actually experienced through the sense doorways (i.e not > counting the mind-door) are visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, > cohesion, temperature and pressure. Other realities/actualities are > experienced through the mind-door as are concepts. > > 4. All the actualities arise depending on 24 conditions enumerated in > detail in the Teachings. > > 5. One of these conditions is kamma, but when it acts as a condition, it > must be supported by many other conditions. > > 6. Seeing, hearing and so on, are examples of actualities predominantly > conditioned by kamma. Certain rupas are also kamma produced, eg > masculinity/femininity, from the first moment of conception. > > 7. When we talk about the effect ot others’ actions on someone or some > people, what is actually experienced by these people are moments of > seeing, hearing and so on as usual - i.e vipaka cittas followed by > accumulated tendencies and reactions. > > 8. In this way, although we can say the disturbing movie or the attack or > praise and blame or the weather are the proximate causes (i.e condition by > way of natural decisive-support condition), still there have to be the > vipaka cittas conditioned by kamma to see and hear the particular visible > objects, sounds and so on at the time. > > 9. Ultimately, what is important is not the vipaka that experienes > pleasant and unpleasant objects, but the understanding and overcoming of > ignorance. This is the only way to overcome suffering. > > 10. In other words, the proximate cause, eg the other’s harsh words or > violent deeds, the weather and so on will also depend on many other > factors beyond our control. The vipaka cittas are conditioned to > experience just the objects they do as a result of kamma and other > factors. The accumulated tendencies and development of equanimity and > dispassion will depend on this very moment of wise consideration and > understanding now. > ..... > I’ll be glad for any comments, Howard and they certainly don’t need to be > technical, intellectual or Abhidhamma-based as far as I’m concerned;-) > > (Nina just quoted from the following sutta which I know we’ve discussed > before: > > "As is explained in the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M > 28): (translation of Wheel 101) : "So then if others abuse and scold and > curse and threaten a bhikkhu, he understands thus, "This painful feeling > born of ear-contact has arisen in me. That is dependent, not independent. > Dependent on what? Dependent on contact." Then he sees that contact is > impermanent.." the same for feeling, sa~n~naa, san"khaarakkhandha and > vi~n~naa.na." > > > > "Sariputta also spoke here about the Buddha's Discourse on the "Parable of > the Saw": "Even if bandits brutally severed limb from limb with a > two-handled saw, he who entertained hate in his heart on that account > would not be one who carried out my teaching." Sariputta explained the > conditions for seeing, for the other sense-cognitions and for the > experiences through the mind-door, and he explained that the five khandhas > have arisen because of conditions. He referred to the Dependent > Origination, and he explained that clinging to the five khandhas is the > cause of dukkha, whereas the eradication of clinging is the cessation of > dukkha. When we see how beneficial the Dhamma is, and how true, we can > recollect the Triple Gem with gratefulness and confidence." ) > ***** > > I’ll also add the other paragraph from the article you raised at the end > which I thought was well put. > > With metta, > > Sarah > ------- > > QUOTE > "Victimhood > Victimhood is tricky. It involves a fair amount to clinging to "me" and > "mine." May involve holding onto a hurt in order to define oneself. (Cf. > Amos Oz on the Israeli-Palestinian situation.) This can be both individual > and collective. Clinging to and identifying with wounds, past injustices, > "what he/they did to me/us," and misfortune in itself creates and > perpetuates suffering. > > This is one reason why Buddha-Dhamma sees beyond Karma into the more > fundamental level of paticca-samuppada (dependent co-origination) and > sunnata (emptiness of inherent self-existence). These realizations see > through - but do not negate - the conventional level of persons, actors, > and victims. They provide a way out of victimhood and guilt by removing > the basis for all forms of greed, hatred, and delusion. > > Did you know that the Buddha mentioned a "karma that goes beyond all > karma"? Ordinary karma is usually spoken of in terms of good, bad, and > mixed. Then there is the transcendent karma of the noble eightfold > path." > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19562 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 10:13am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 24 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 24 People may believe that it is too difficult to have patience to listen and to read the Tipitaka, but one needs patience and endurance in all respects and in all situations. When we think of the past lives of the disciples, we see that before they had a high degree of patience they had attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) and ignorance (moha). They had a great deal of akusala, just as people today. However, they had paññå and they understood the benefit of patience and of wholesome qualities. Therefore, they had patience to develop all kinds of kusala so that finally the perfections could reach fulfilment through the realization of the four noble Truths. Before we can reach fulfilment of the perfections, before we have finished their development, we should continue to develop them with patience and endurance, life after life, and this is ³cira kåla bhåvana², a development which takes a long time (cira kåla). It takes a long time to develop paññå to the degree that it can eradicate defilements. When we see how many defilements we still have, we understand that the development of paññå must take an endlessly long time. Defilements cannot be eradicated if we do not listen to the Dhamma and do not consider ourselves the Dhamma. All the teachings we listen to deal with the development of paññå and the eradication of defilements. We can see that if there is patience with the development of the perfections they will reach fulfilment, we do not develop them in vain: once they must reach maturity, that is, the realization of the four noble Truths. The perfections of the Exalted One, the Sammåsambuddha, reached maturity and fulfilment so that he could attain Buddhahood at the foot of the Bodhi-tree in Bodhgaya. The buddhist followers who have confidence wish to pay respect at the holy places where the most important events in the cycle of birth and death took place. However, people who will go to pay respect at the holy places, should have wise attention to the Dhamma and consider all the teachings. Therefore, I would like to deal with the patience of the Buddha¹s disciples in different lives, so that we will consider and understand that even with regard to ordinary events of daily life we should have patience and endurance. 19563 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 11:56am Subject: (2)5.Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers Dear Dhamma Friends, As described in previous post,cetasikas have much effect on actions of Citta.Here are more about Cetasikas.Constructive ministers as I named them are 25. 1.Saddha (total belief) He makes citta believes in the practice of Dhamma and all about The Dhamma. 2.Sati (mindfulness) He makes citta watch actively and makes mindful.So citta remember to work according to its will. 3.Hiri(shamefulness) It hinders citta to do bad thing as doing so will be shameful. 4.Uttappa(fear) It makes citta unwilling to do bad things as doing so will have negative effect and citta is fearful of that result. 5.Alobha(unattachment) It makes citta willing to offer things to Sattas as citta becomes unattached to those things when Alobha advises him. 6.Adosa(Metta) It advises citta in order to exert Metta on Sattas.It has non- destructive effect.It urges citta to have a good moral. 7.Tatramijjatata(Upekkha) It equalises the strength of all accompanying cetasikas and so it advises citta as well to work in a state of equilibrium that means it works without extremeness. 8.Kayapassadhi(coolness or calmness of cetasika) It has soothing effect on cetasikas.It calms down mind and causes cetasikas free from all worries. 9.Cittapassadhi(coolness or calmness of citta) It has soothing effect on citta.It calms down mind as well and causes citta free from all worries. 10.Kayalahuta(lightness of cetasikas) It causes cetasikas ready to function well. 11.Citta-lahuta(Lightness of citta) It causes citta ready to function well. 12.Kayamuduta(tenderness of cetasikas) It causes all cetasikas to be tender and gentle. 13.Cittamuduta(tenderness of citta) It causes citta to be tender and gentle. 14.Kayakammannata(stability of cetasikas) It stabilises all cetasikas. 15.Cittakammannata(stibility of citta) It stibilises citta. 16.Kayapagunnata(appropriateness of cetasikas) It causes proper functioning of cetasikas. 17.Cittapagunnata(appropriateness of citta) It causes proper functioning of citta. 18.Kayujukata(rightness of cetasikas) It makes all cetasikas sincere. 19.Cittujukata(rightness of citta) It makes citta sincere. 20.Samma-kammanta(right action) It advises citta to do the right things only. 21.Samma-vaca(right speech) It makes citta to talk only the right things 22.Samma-ajiva(right living) It makes citta to live on right living. 23.Karuna(pitiness) It makes citta to have pity on Sattas. 24.Mudhita(happiness on wealthiness of others) It makes citta to have a good mood on the events of other people success and wealth. 25.Pannindriya(Panna or Wisdom) It makes citta to think to see and to realise in depth. All these constructive ministers at least work together. May you all have a clear view on cetasikas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19564 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 0:12pm Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) --- Dear Ray and Swee Boon, In the useful posts under kamma and vipaka are some letters that may be helpul: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts In the Abhidhamma there are 4 types of cittas classified as jati. Vipaka(result), kiriya , akusala and kusala. In a process of cittas that experiences an object such as sound only a moment is vipaka, result. The rest are of the other jatis(not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a flash and then many more moments that are not vipaka. This is not theory and can be seen by developed insight to whatever degree is appropriate. Also even the vipaka citta has to have other conditions to support it. It is never the only condition. Do you know about the three rounds? The round of defilement (kilesa vatta), of action (kamma vatta), and of result of action (vipaka vatta). Useful to understand the difference between these and also how they are related. Kilesa vatta includes avijja, ignorance, tanha, craving, and upadana. Kamma vatta includes both meritorious and demeritorious deeds. Vipaka vatta, (kamma result), relates to the consequences of actions, good or bad. Every action produces a resultant of mind, matter, six sense-bases, feeling etc. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching are all vipaka vatta. Note that both kamma vatta and kilesa vatta arise during the javanna process while vipaka vatta arises only at the moments of seeing etc. These classifications help us in untangling the tangle of life. Dependent on vipaka vatta, there arises kilesa vatta; and dependent on kilesa vatta, there arises kamma vatta. The revolution of these three vattas has being and is occuring continually throughout samasara vatta. Here is an example:Someone sees a BMW car (my favourite): that is the concept. What actually happens is visible object conditions seeing consciousness (vipaka, result of kamma). This then conditions kilesa (craving) which if of sufficient strenght conditions kamma (perhaps stealing). In the future that act will bring a suitable result... and so the round goes on and on... I add some more now about the different conditions since Ray is interested: The rupa which is seen (vannayatana) is only rupa, however it is related to the nama which is seeing consciousness (cakkhu vinnana). It is aramma paccaya, and it is also prenascent presence condition (atthi- paccaya). It is also helpful to know that rupa is always vipayutta-paccaya (dissociation condition) for the nama it conditions because then we will realise that no matter what happens nama need not be affected. For instance, if we experience the cutting of our limbs (eg accident) we can understand that the body base is dissociated from the namas. We cling to a whole of "me" and my body but it is only namas and rupas. The sense objects (eg colours) are certainly crucial conditioning factors for vipaka cittas. They also condition the javanna cittas by arammana paccaya - but the javanna cittas are also mainly conditioned by past accumulations. The kilesa vatta is predominant here - not vipaka vatta. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" wrote: > > My > > Hi NEO Swee Boon, > > Thanks very much for the link, and I thank Sarah also, I did the search > and found the other posts. Frankly I think the Sutta can support both > views, there was something else you said Swee Boon that I wanted to see > expanded on. You said that mental feelings are not the result of kamma but > the creation of kamma. It seems to me that mental feelings, positive, > negative or neutral are both the result and creation of kamma. Does the > Abhidhamma teach that mental feelings are not the result of kamma? Such > feelings have to be conditioned and isn't kamma the primary conditioning > agent here? Thanks very much for expanding on this....Ray 19565 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 0:42pm Subject: Peace Hello Everyone, Any Dhammafarers in SEQld with the time and inclination on Sunday 16th Feb. may be interested in this notice - if it doesn't work by clicking on it, please cut and paste to Google. http://ronny.imess.net/anarchy/nowar.swf How wonderful if I, together with Luke and SarahF, could see you at the forum. For those that can't make it, and live on the Australian east coast, you may be interested in : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peace-bris/ Hey, Herman! great to hear that your peace efforts got a mention in the National Parliament. :-) ;-) Onya!! metta and peace, Christine 19566 From: Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 1:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi, Robert - Thank you for the following. What interests me particularly in this is the amazing complexity involved: the multileveled, intricate ramifications of the conditioning-conditioned process. Not a simple matter, for sure! With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/10/2003 3:12:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Ray and Swee Boon, > In the useful posts under kamma and vipaka are some letters that may > be helpul: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > In the Abhidhamma > there are 4 types of cittas classified as jati. Vipaka(result), > kiriya , akusala and kusala. In a process of cittas that experiences > an object such as sound only a moment is vipaka, result. The rest > are of the other jatis(not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a > flash and then many more moments that are not vipaka. This is not > theory and can be seen by developed insight to whatever degree is > appropriate. > Also even the vipaka citta has to have other conditions to support > it. It is never the only condition. > > > Do you know about the three rounds? The round of defilement > (kilesa vatta), of action (kamma vatta), and of result of action > (vipaka vatta). Useful to understand the difference between > these and also how they are related. Kilesa vatta includes > avijja, ignorance, tanha, craving, and upadana. Kamma vatta > includes both meritorious and demeritorious deeds. Vipaka vatta, > (kamma result), relates to the consequences of actions, good or > bad. Every action produces a resultant of mind, matter, six > sense-bases, feeling etc. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, > touching are all vipaka vatta. Note that both kamma vatta and > kilesa vatta arise during the javanna process while vipaka vatta > arises only at the moments of seeing etc. These classifications > help us in untangling the tangle of life. > Dependent on vipaka vatta, there arises kilesa vatta; and > dependent on kilesa vatta, there arises kamma vatta. The > revolution of these three vattas has being and is occuring > continually throughout samasara vatta. > Here is an example:Someone sees a BMW car (my favourite): that is the > concept. > What actually happens is visible object conditions seeing > consciousness (vipaka, result of kamma). This then conditions kilesa > (craving) which if of > sufficient strenght conditions kamma (perhaps stealing). In the future > that act will bring a suitable result... and so the round goes > on and on... > > I add some more now about the different conditions since Ray is > interested: > > The rupa which is seen (vannayatana) is only rupa, > however it is related to the nama which is seeing consciousness > (cakkhu vinnana). It is aramma paccaya, and it is also > prenascent presence condition (atthi- paccaya). It is also > helpful to know that rupa is always vipayutta-paccaya > (dissociation condition) for the nama it conditions because then > we will realise that no matter what happens nama need not be > affected. For instance, if we experience the cutting of our > limbs (eg accident) we can understand that the body base is > dissociated from the namas. We cling to a whole of "me" and my > body but it is only namas and rupas. > The sense objects (eg > colours) are certainly crucial conditioning factors for > vipaka > cittas. They also condition the javanna cittas by arammana > paccaya - but the javanna cittas are also mainly conditioned > by past accumulations. The kilesa vatta is > predominant here - not vipaka vatta. > > RobertK 19567 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 2:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi RobertK, Howard, Swee Boon, Christine and all :) Robert thank you very the very detailed explanation. I have not contemplated in terms of the three rounds and thank you very much for writing about them. I think where I have to put forth some more work is my mistaking akusala and kusala for vipaka. The Pali Dictionary I have says of vipaka, "Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself karma." I also think you point that vipaka citta has to have other conditions to support it goes a long way towards understanding the Sivaka Sutta, which I think still allows for that rock to fall on our foot my accident :) Also thank you very much for your link to the Useful Posts area. Metta Ray... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 12:12 PM Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) > --- > Dear Ray and Swee Boon, > In the useful posts under kamma and vipaka are some letters that may > be helpul: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > In the Abhidhamma > there are 4 types of cittas classified as jati. Vipaka(result), > kiriya , akusala and kusala. In a process of cittas that experiences > an object such as sound only a moment is vipaka, result. The rest > are of the other jatis(not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a > flash and then many more moments that are not vipaka. This is not > theory and can be seen by developed insight to whatever degree is > appropriate. > Also even the vipaka citta has to have other conditions to support > it. It is never the only condition. 19568 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Parameters Hi Dharam, Thank you for all your kind comments (deserved or undserved;-)). wrote: > The Buddha declared "I teach only suffering and the cessation of > suffering." ..... This is a neat idea as a signature as a ‘header’;-) ..... > D: I gather you mean the 'unsatisfactory' aspect in its full measure, > instead of the easier to comprehend dukkha-dukkha and change. ..... Suffering as in the 4NT referred to in your header. ..... >I am > led here to understand that all reality is Dukkha (broadly > defined). If that is correct, how does this resonate with my > superficial understanding of the Simsappa Sutta as mentioned in an > earlier response to Mike? ..... I had to go back to the other correspondence to check your ‘superficial understanding’ referred to: ***** Dharam to Mike: “I enjoyed reading your quote from the Simsappa Sutta . It just reinforced my impression that the Budha was concentrating on one aspect of reality - dukkha, and he knew it, and even explicity declared it. It is that very aspect of supra-mundane reality (non-Dukkha - if there is such a thing) that I want to get at here.” ***** Hopefully Mike may reply to your comments when he has time. I don’t quite follow you or agree with the implications of your comments elsewhere about “the four noble truths are the only focus of your endeavour”, suggesting other truths are left out perhaps? The Buddha taught us about all the realities which can ever be experienced. The inherent nature of all these is dukkha. By understanding these realities and the cause of suffering (i.e clinging to what is by nature impermanent and unsatisfactory), that reality which is ”non- Dukkha”, i.e nibbana, can be realized. There are only the conditioned realities with the characteristic of dukkha and the non-conditioned reality, nibbana. No others. This is why in the sutta, the Buddha says with regard to what is not taught: "...they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them." ..... In other words, as I understand, all that is related to what can be known and related to what is connected with the 4NT is taught. There is no other unconditioned reality apart from nibbana as you suggest. We also seem to be using ultimate realities (“......”) in quite a different way. Most of us here are referring to paramattha dhammas, the conditioned realities and nibbana as referred to above, as distinct from concepts. I suggest that instead of searching for ‘reality’ in the archives, it may be easier (and a lot quicker) to look at the section under ‘Concepts and Realities’ in useful posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ..... > I am curious why so much is included (packed) in the designated > hitter 'Dukkha'; when there is such an elaborate classification, sub- > classification and so on, of all the other elements etc. > Understanding dukkha, and possibly the even more elusive Anatta, must > take time and effort. I sense my disadvantage here, but possibly > not even the full extent of it :-/. ..... Dukkha and anatta are characteristics of all the elements , khandhas and so on which are simply different ways of categorising the same realities mentioned. ..... > D: Even in the Upanisa Sutta, there is an avoidance of 'first' cause > as opposed to 'proximate' cause. He does not go beyond ignorance > (the primary root of the mundane series). I took that to indicate > that the Buddha was concentrating on Dukkha, rather than that he > thought there was no first cause. It occurs, that some other > teachings address first cause to various degrees and in various > ways. Hence, one of the reasons for my suggestion of their being > complimentary. ..... Ignorance is the cause of the rounds of samsara to which no beginning can be found. Trying to trace a first round or first cause is not productive. Rather than being complimentary in this particular regard, I would say the ideas about any ‘beginning’ are quite different. ..... > I have no doubt that the Buddha's treatment of (at least) dukkha- > dukkha is the most comprehensive that I have come across so far. > As far as the important third 'unsatisfactory' aspect is concerned > however, there seem to be other (i.e. non-Buddhist) approaches to > this state. ..... I don’t wish to say whether this is right or not. The 1st NT can only be understood by developing the stages of insight elaborated, starting with the very clear understanding of namas and rupas as quite distinct and as empty (of self) phenomena. ..... > Therefore, the corollary question here has to be: are we limiting our > sense of reality to include only that discussed specifically by the > Buddha, whose intention presumably was only to address a specific, > albeit large, portion of reality? Are we ignoring other aspects, > just because he did not teach about them? He himself seems to say, > that he is being selective, does he not? ..... I don’t agree with this. What he didn’t teach would refer to the extraordinary knowledge he had about so many aspects and details not relevant or related to the understanding of all possible realities. To give a crude example or two - he would know and understand all the previous life details of a particular deva and all that would be conditioned in future to arise for that deva down to the most intricate details if he applied his mind to do so. He knew all the precise details relating to every rupa arising in a tree and so on. We cannot begin to imagine a tiny aspect of the Buddha’s knowledge. A look at any of the Abhidhamma texts, such as the “Discourse on Elements” gives one just a glimpse of this extraordinary omniscinent knowledge. Please don’t think that anything is being held back that can ever possibly be known, not even anything that can possibly be known (or of use) by the other great arahants, I would think. ..... > D: All realities? Is there no room for unconditioned realities > i.e. "........"? .... I expect in the context I was referring to conditioned realities. i’m glad to be corrected. As I said, there is only one unconditioned reality, nibbana. I believe your “....” must refer to conditioned realities, but I no longer understand quite what you are referring to. ..... > Will send this off now, although only a portion of your messages has > been addressed here, will await your answers before proceeding. ..... Dharam, I hope I’ve clarified anything not so clear in my last post. it’s good to get all these points clear. I’ll look forward to proceeding further with other parts of the messages or with this one. Metta, Sarah ======= "Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa forest?" "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? "Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa forest?" "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them." Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 Simsapa Sutta The Simsapa Leaves Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. 19569 From: nidive Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 4:09am Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Dear RobertK, It is amazing how the Law of Dependent Arising/Origination can be interpreted in so many ways. The ABHIDHAMMATTHA - SANGAHA, CHAPTER VIII - The Compendium Of Relations states that: http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_8.htm ------------------------------------------------- Herein this is the Law of the Dependent Arising. It should be understood that there are three periods, twelve factors, twenty modes, three connections, four divisions, three rounds, and two roots. ------------------------------------------------- The closest I can comprehend is the three rounds. It states: ------------------------------------------------- The three Rounds: 1. Ignorance, craving, and grasping belong to the Round of Passions; 2. One part of becoming (bhava) known as action and (moral and immoral) activities belongs to the Round of Kamma. 3. One part of becoming known as renewed existence (upapattibhava) and the rest belong to the Round of Effects. ------------------------------------------------- The reason why I think of mental feelings as new kamma is because these mental feelings always accompanies either the kusala or akusala citta. Nina said: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12382 ------------------------------------------------- When there is bodily pain, the painful feeling is vipaka, it accompanies the vipakacitta which experiences the object impinging on the body-sense. Unpleasant (mental) feeling may arise afterwards; it is not vipaka, but accompanies the akusala citta. It arises because of our accumulated dosa (aversion). Though 'bodily' feeling and 'mental' feeling are both nama, they are entirely different kinds of feelings, arising because of different conditions. When there are no more conditions for dosa there can still be bodily painful feeling, but there is no longer (mental) unpleasant feeling. The arahat may still have akusala vipaka as long as his life is not terminated yet, but he has no aversion. ------------------------------------------------- > Also even the vipaka citta has to have other conditions > to support it. It is never the only condition. I agree. An act of physical attack on Person B by Person A is not caused by Person B's past kamma. But the bodily feelings associated with Person B's injuries is certainly his/her own vipaka. Person A's decision to carry out the physical attack is a supporting condition for Person B's vipaka to arise. But Person B's past kamma did not cause Person A to make the decision to carry out the physical attack. The results of kamma is infinite, as is the beginning of this samsara. "These four imponderables are not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about them would go mad & experience vexation. Which four? The Buddha-range of the Buddhas [i.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha]... The jhana-range of one absorbed in jhana [i.e., the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhana]... The results of kamma... Speculation about [the first moment, purpose, etc., of] the cosmos is an imponderable that is not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about these things would go mad & experience vexation." [AN IV.77] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19570 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Swee Boon Sorry for the delay in responding. The key terms in the passage you quote below are "insight into phenomena through heightened discernment" and "internal tranquillity of awareness". The Bhikkhu Bodhi translation (NDB), gives the following translations for these 2 expressions, together with explanatory material on their meaning from the commentaries, as given in a footnote: "higher wisdom of insight into things (adhi-panna-dhamma-vipassana)": insight knowledge discerning formations (sankhara-pariggaahaka-vipassana-nana) ... insight into the 'things' comprised by the five aggregates "internal tranquillity of mind (ajjhattam ceto-samatha)": concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhana) (I give these because it is often virtually impossible to know the precise meaning of terms appearing in the suttas without reference to the commentaries.) I agree that this supports the assertion that samatha is not necessary for the development of panna/vipassana. I think it even goes a little further than that, in that the insight it refers to is actually at the level of vipassana-nana (perhaps the 'tender insight' levels -- Nina may be able to ad more here). Thanks for the reference. Jon --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > An interesting analogy, James. But did the Buddha ever say that > > panna could not be developed without formal yogic meditation > > (whatever that may be)? > > I think the Buddha never said that. A supporting sutta would be (if > > I am not wrong): > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) > > "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena > through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of > awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained > internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the > mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should > it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will > answer > in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be > steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in > this > way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be > concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will > become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness > > & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19571 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Swee Boon --- "nidive " wrote: ... <> My understanding is somewhat different, namely, that right concentration must also be present at moments of mundane insight (or 'insight before the path'), as well as at (supramundane) path moments themselves. I believe that mundane insight moments are also called 'mundane path' moments and, as I mentioned in a post last week, are invariably accompanied by 5 mundane path factors, namely - wisdom/panna (samma-ditthi), right thinking/vitakka (samma-sangkappa), energy/viriya (samma-vayama), awareness/sati (samma-sati). concentration /ekaggata (samma-samadhi) Concentration is 1 of these 5 mundane path factors. There cannot be insight without there also being right concentration. So with each moment of insight the path factor of concentration is developed, as is the case with each of the other 4 path factors. <> I think on a closer look it becomes apparent that this sutta does not say that tranquility is necessary for the attainment of path consciousness. The key here is the expression 'clear knowing'. According to the notes to the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation (NDB, p.280), the Pali term 'vijja' here means not only the attainment of enlightenment but also other knowledges (in the nature of powers) that are clearly the outcome of samatha bhavana. So the reference to tranquility could be accounted for by these other attainments. <> Agreed, as discussed in my post of a few minutes ago. <> I agree with your opening statement to this section, namely that "for the path (higher wisdom) to arise, besides insight, concentration is also necessary". But concentration and tranquility are not interchangeable expressions, and we need to be clear when the reference is to samatha bhavana (tranquility) and when it is to right concentration as a factor of insight/enlightenment. In the fourth case there is mention of concentration but not of tranquility so presumably that is a reference to right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path rather than samatha bhavana. Thanks for the great references, Swee Boon. I hope you find these comments interesting. Jon A IV, 170 On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html 19572 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:34am Subject: Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Dear KKT, Thanks for your question.Sorry for my reply late as after this heading there were a lot of posts and I had little chance to check back. I assume what you asked was ''Can Citta at least control itself?'' In this matter,no one can intrude our mind including supramundane beings.Citta leads all Nama-dhammas.The controlling power homes on Citta as it is the leader. Cetasikas advise citta,remind citta to control bad things and to encourage doing good things.But final decision is made by citta and then it leads all namadhammas. So,in simple term,yes,citta can control itself.One who knows his mind can well control his mind. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --------------- -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000 " wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing > " wrote: > > > < snip > > > > To cease sufferings and extinguish all the fire(Kilesas and > Sanyojanas),Citta needs to be trained diligently until the Highest > Panna is attained.As it is a leader,it can train itself and its > allied cetasikas as well.One can sense the existance of one's > Citta.So why not possible to lead oneself to a better living and > life.One should never be led by bad things and bad thought.Lead > yourselves.Behave yourselves.Citta is a leader and Citta is the > Leader. > > > > > KKT: You wrote: > > << it (ie. Citta) can train itself >> > > So Citta can << control >> (at least) itself? > > > Metta, > > > KKT 19573 From: nidive Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Jon, Thank you for your kind reply. I realized that the phrase "awareness-release" refers to the attainment of the jhanas. So the Suttas such as: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html are talking about the arahant with both awareness-release and discernment-release. They are meant for practitioners of the first type (released both ways), as in: > "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html So I correct myself thus: Samatha (tranquility or jhana absorption) is not necessary for the development of insight or the arising of the path moment. But Right Concentration is necessary for the development of insight and the arising of the path moment. Right Concentration should be understood as: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html Thank you, Jon, for bringing this "old" post up. This is a pretty confusing subject and it's not clear in my mind (partly due to the misunderstanding/ignorance of the translations used). I also have two questions to ask you, as explained below. Regarding the second type of arahant: "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html Ven. Henepola states that: ----------------------------------------------- The commentarial exegesis of this passage (found in the Majjhima Nikaya commentary) explains the procedure for developing serenity preceded by insight thus: Here, someone contemplates with insight the five aggregates of clinging as impermanent, etc. without having produced the aforesaid kinds of serenity (jhanic access and jhanic absorption); this is insight. With the completion of insight there arises in him mental one-pointedness having as object the renunciation of the phenomena produced therein; this is serenity. Thus first comes insight, afterwards serenity. In case it should be suspected that the second type of meditator still attains mundane jhana after developing insight, the subcommentary to the passage points out: "the mental one-pointedness he gains is right concentration of the supramundane path (magga- samma-samadhi) and its object, called 'renunciation' (vavassagga), is nibbana. The Anguttara subcommentary explicitly identifies the second meditator with the vipassanayanika: "He develops serenity preceded by insight': this is said with reference to the vipassanayanika". ----------------------------------------------- Question (1): Does the translation of "tranquility" in Anguttara Nikaya IV.170, refer to the "full mental absorption" of both the mundane jhana and the supramundane path? How is this translation of "tranquility" different from that in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html Or am I too nitty-picky on these details? Sometimes it's pretty frustrating. Question (2): How is this second type of arahant (tranquility preceded by insight) different from the fourth type, that is: "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html I have also told you that this fourth type of arahant is elaborated in Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-100-1.html but you said that it is not. I still insist that it's an elaboration of the fourth type. "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. "If he wants, he knows the awareness of other beings... "If he wants, he recollects his manifold past lives... "If he wants, he sees -- by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human -- beings passing away and re-appearing... "If he wants, then through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release and discernment- release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here and now. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening." Please compare the two descriptions carefully. It appears that even the fourth type is considered as having practised mundane jhanas. I understand these are very difficult questions to answer. But it still puzzles me. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19574 From: nidive Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 7:30am Subject: Nina, please help me. Dear Nina & All, Please explain Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 in detail. Please explain the differences between the four types of arahants. On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html (1) develop insight preceded by tranquility This refers to arahants released both ways, right? The tranquility attained is that of both the mundane jhana and the supramundane path. (2) develop tranquility preceded by insight This refers to arahants released by insight alone, right? The tranquility attained is that of the supramundane path only. (3) develop tranquillity in tandem with insight What does this mean? (4) restlessness concerning the Dhamma well under control What does this mean? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19575 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma,Perceiving it & Realisation Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply and encouragement.I am really sorry for that I could not find your reply and my delayed reply.After posted this heading,there were more than a hundred of posts and all were not related to my posts.So I simply deleted as I could not manage all and I stopped individual e-mail and that is why I could not find your reply,Sarah. Thanks to Suan,Sukin,Nina,Sujin,Herman and James for their interest in my topics.When I read through this reply,I realised that you (Sarah) have a good understanding in all and you are able to catch the point.There is no mistake in your reply.I am flawless and should anything unclear,misleading or confusing term or word or terminology occurred,let me know so that I can correct them and elucidate further. It will be quite difficult to place mind on the arammana ''Anicca'' but with a long practice we will manage to do that.Role of Panna in understanding all dhammas should not be underestimated.I am trying to convey understandable messages to all Dhamma-seekers and Dhamma Friends.When overall picture can be viewed well I will shift to practical matters later on.So far have I posted as a series are the following headings: 1.Anicca And Dhamma 2.Dhamma,Perceiving It & Realisation 3.(1)Citta As A Leader 4.(2)1.Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers 2. ,, 3 ,, 4. ,, 5. ,, I will try to post the practical matters later on after posting some headings to have a clear mental mapping of dhammas.All above 8 posts may contain argueable points.If so please all Dhamma Friends do not hesitate to post queries. Thanks in advance,Sarah, for your encouragement. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Htoo (& Suan), > > I'm really appreciating your comments and posts though I understand that > for others that the Abhidhamma details are an acquired or not to be > acquired taste;-) Like various delicacies at a buffet, we need to pick and > choose those that don't give us indigestion;-) > > I have several of your posts before me which I've following as you send > them. Sometimes I think there is a little difference in understanding and > then I find it is just a matter of terminology. I've found much of the > detail very helpful. > > Let me just raise a few points in no special order to clarify: > > --- "htootintnaing " > wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > Dhamma is Dhamma.All the dhamma can be perceptible. > > > > All the dhamma means all the possible things perceptible through the > > watching windows of Six,including Pancadavara and Manodavara(mind- > > eye). > ..... > I believe that when you say "All the dhamma can be perceptible" you are > referring to the role of citta which experiences or cognizes all phenomena > - both realities and concepts (pannatti). I agree with your other comments > about citta being the `chief' in experiencing an object. We can read a lot > about this in the Atthasalini (Expositor). > > In another post you mentioned to someone that sa~n~na doesn't perceive and > that this is the role of citta. I think this may be a matter of > terminology. Usually sanna is translated as perception or > memory/remembrance, so it can lead to confusion if the term is used for > citta, I think. I agree these may be misleading terms to us and in an > earlier post, Suan made just your point and many more interesting ones in: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages/17264 > > I always meant to reply to it. One comment Suan made in this post was that > to use perception for citta is "in line with the use of the term > "perception" in the textbooks on psychology". Now I was trained in > psychology but I think there is little in common between the term as used > there and the role of citta, so I prefer not to try to equate them. I'm > also not sure I agree any more with Suan's use of `memory' as a > translation for sanna (it certainly doesn't equate with `memory' in > psychological use), though I appreciate his points about the use of memory > in the chapter in Pali grammar, he mentions. > > In Abhidhamma, realities like sanna have very specific functions, > manifestations and so on. Any terms are bound to be misleading. I did > agree with Suan's `mind or consciousness' for citta rather than `thought' > which as he explained is very misleading. Generally, I just use common > translations because at least people then know what Pali term is being > referred to, though I understand that for Pali scholars like Suan, this is > not a satisfactory solution. > > When you say "All the dhamma can be perceptible", I believe you therefore > mean that all dhammas are experienced (by cittas through 6 doorways > (`watching windows'), including pannatti. At first I misunderstood your > post to mean `can be kown', in which case, `dhammas' would not include > pannatti (concepts). This is later clarified in your post to James > (19093). > > I found your posts on rupas very helpful and I hope Rob M (an Abhidhamma > teacher in Malaysia) is following your posts on vithicitta (processes). > You gave some useful comments here on ekaggata cetasika (concentration): > > Htoo: "Concentration is just a lay term.Everyone can concentrate in some > ways.The dog concentrates at its > food.The monkey concentrates at bananas wherever.Erotically active > people concentrate on their > interests.Terrorists concentrate at their attack points.Thieves > concentrate on the disappearance of the > owners.Manslaughters concentrate the weakest points at men and > concentrate at these points. > > From Abhidhamma point of view,whenever citta occurs,Ekagatta > occurs.BUT Ekagatta in different > people and even in a person in different cittas behaves differently > in terms of power,purity and strength > even though its function is to fix at a point." > ***** > I think you're helping to clear up many points raised directly or > indirectly and I'll be delighted if you sweep through the archives doing > this;-) > > `Dhammas' can have different meanings in different contexts. In the post I > started off replying to, when you said "All the dhamma can be > perceptible", you were referring to realities and concepts. In your > `Anicca and Dhamma' post, when you say "All the Dhammas are subjected to > happening (Arising and wearing away)", you make it clear that you are not > referring to pannatti (concepts) here, just as the Buddha didn't. > > You clearly say "As all the things are Anicca, they cannot be managed with > chosen directions; so they will go on their own ways. So all the things > are Anatta (Non-self)". I like the way you explain this, but at the end of > the same post (19190), you say "Fix firmly in mind, "Anicca" "Anicca" > "Anicca". In another post you also say "One can sense the existence of > one's citta" and some other comment which prompted KKT to question whether > it was possible to `control' the mind after all. I think these were the > kind of comments Sukin was picking up on as well. Perhaps you are just > referring to the role of panna, understanding?? > > When you also say in the `anicca' post that "if one can always contemplate > all the dhammas as Anicca or Dukkha or anatta firmly in his mind, there > will be no attachment to them", I'd respectfully suggest that it's > impossible to `always contemplate...' and surely the aim is to begin to > understand realities, step by step, not just to think about > characteristics which are not yet known?? > > I was also going to mention about the `waving' and how surely it's not > always with ditthi. I see now that Nina has picked up this point too. I'm > glad to read your extra comments on the passages she is translating. You > may not have been around on DSG when she started this series at the > request of a few members. It is a series of rather complex points that > have been raised at the meetings of a group of teachers (at the Foundtion > where A.Sujin is based) in Bangkok in Thai. Nina was asked to translate > these into English. > > Finally, I'm looking at a letter you wrote to Herman. I really like the > way you stress " Jhana take mostly Pannatta-arammana. Pannatta > does not happen, it is not a real existence, it has no lifespan. That is > arammana." I like it because it is hard for many people to appreciate that > pannatti are not real and don't have a lifespan. You continue to explain > how cittas in jhana are the same without interruption which lead some > mistakenly to take them for being permanent "(Nicca-someone like > Bhaka-Brahma)". > > Thank you again for so many helpful posts and details, Htoo. As I said, I > personally found the way you set out the rupas and other dhammas helpful > and I also like the way you set out the `requirements' for different > experiences such as seeing, hearing etc to occur. > > Pls let me know if I've misunderstood any of your comments or if you ever > find any mistakes in any of my posts. I'm always happy to make > corrections;-) > > Anumodana, > > Sarah > ====== 19576 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation and Abhidhamma op 10-02-2003 02:44 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > Is intimation concept or reality? > Hi Larry, it is reality. Bodily intimation and speech intimation are rupas. Difficult? Yes it is. They are qualities of rupa, a certain change in the great Elements, as you have read. We cannot catch them, but we can have more understanding of them. We take them for self, for example, when you, in the office, elegantly make a gesture to a lady to let her pass ahead. Or in the car, you thank with your hand another driver for letting you pass. Or, the countless moments we are speaking: only nama and rupa. Here again we see the true purpose of the Abhidhamma: understanding realities as non-self. When insight is developed more, there is no doubt what Abhidhamma is, but even when beginning to develop understanding we can see: yes, this is Abhidhamma, all dhammas within oneself and outside. Subtle points of the Dhamma may not appeal to us at first. I had this experience when reading about Dhamma Issue 4: the four characteristics inherent in all rupas. Here it is explained that the duration of rupa is as long as 51 sub-moments of citta. We have heard about seventeen moments, but each citta can be subdivided into three moments: arising, presence and falling away. When reflecting on this subject I found that this is an extra reminder of the impermanence of rupa. Even in one rupa we have the characteristic of arising, continuation, decay and then falling away. There are many methods of teaching (remember Rahula), and each one stresses a certain point. I was just keeping to the Atthasalini, and did not realize other methods (naya). Another subtle point: space is a rupa, it has the function of separating all the different groups of rupas. It is the infinitesimal space surrounding each group. This was discussed when in Thailand. I wondered whether this can ever be experienced. As Num mentioned in his series of Patisambiddha, at the second stage of insight different khandhas are distinguished. As A. Sujin said, also groups of rupa and space delimiting groups of rupa can be experienced. This shows how coarse awareness is now, when touching something hard. Very useful to know what one does not know yet. No illusions. Before we learnt about bhavangacitta. I thought, can this be known? A. Sujin said, yes. An object impinges on one of the senses, but before that nothing impinges, it is like a gap, there is nothing. We do not try to catch it, but we can have more understanding of it. Abhidhamma is for development. Nina. 19577 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:03am Subject: Manual of Abh., new book. Dear friends, I just received from PTS a new book: Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and its co: Abhidhammatthavibhavini, in English. R. Gethin the translator quotes the original preface by Wijeratne who started this work, but who died before he could finish: Several of you will rejoice, I know. Jon, what is the atthayojana? Nina. 19578 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 48, Comm, Clear Comprehension op 10-02-2003 01:44 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the > Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, p. 61 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > There are these four kinds of comprehension: clear comprehension of > purpose [satthaka sampajañña], of suitability [sappaya > sampajañña], of resort [gocara sampajañña], and of non-delusion > [asammoha sampajañña]. > The clear comprehension of the (mental) > resort which is called the subject of meditation that is unrelinquished, > in going backwards and forwards on the alms resort and elsewhere, is the > clear comprehension of resort. Nina: gocara sampajañña, gocara is the object of right understanding. Any object appearing through the six doors, this is the kammatthana. As we read:< the subject of meditation that is unrelinquished, in going backwards and forwards>. Here, in this case, the monk does not sit, closes his eyes and concentrates. The monk is going about. We study the Co so that we have more understanding of what is implied in the sutta. I think we should not forget the sutta text when studying the commentary and frequently go back to it. I am inclined to forget this. Nina. 19579 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:04am Subject: (3)Rupa As A Ladder Dear Dhamma Friends, While sattas are in the planes of existance that have rupadhammas,all citta and cetasikas have to depend on rupadhamma with the exception of Patisandhi,Bhavanga and Cuticittas. Although citta is the leader,it has to depend on rupa,home on rupa and work on rupa.Citta uses Rupa As A Ladder for its maturity until it merges with the highest Panna and still has to home on rupa until Cuticitta of Parinibbana occurs,after which absolute peace (Nibbana) comes.Sotapattimaggacitta has to arise only when homing on Hadayavatthu.Without Hadayavatthu(Rupa as a ladder),Sotapattimaggacitta will never arises. All rupas have been described in the post headed as ''Dhamma,Perceiving It & Realisation''.Here is a summary again. 1.Pathavi(matter and its density) 2.Tajo(temperature) 3.Vayo(resiliency and forces in matters) 4.Cakkhupasada(eye) 5.Sotapasada(ear) 6.Ghanapasada(nose) 7.Jivapasada(tongue) 8.Kayapasada(body) 9.Rupa(sights) 10.Sadda(sounds) 11.Gandha(smell) 12.Rasa(taste) 13.Purisattabhavarupa(male characteristics) 14.Itthisattabhavarupa(female characteristics) 15.Hadayavatthu(the seat of Citta *****) 16.Ahara(Oja,nutrition) 17.Jivitarupa(life of rupa) 18.Apo(composibility,not water-Apo cannot be sensed) --- 19.Paricchedarupa(Akasa,space) 20.Kayavinatti(gesture) 21.Vacivinatti(speech) 22.Rupalahuta(lightness of rupa) 23.Rupamuduta(tenderness of rupa) 24.Rupakammannata(stability of rupa) 25.Upacayarupa(initial formation) 26.Sansati(developing rupa till fully mature one) 27.Jaratarupa(Becoming old) 28.Aniccatarupa(Disappearance of rupa) Even though these sound a bit heavy,it worths to learn for understanding of later discussions. May you all have a good understanding in these rupas and use them as a ladder to pick up Sotapattimaggacitta. With Great Metta, Htoo Naing 19580 From: Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 2:59pm Subject: Way 49, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, no. 1, p. 61 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Among these four kinds of clear comprehension, the clear comprehension of purpose is the comprehension of (a worthy) purpose after considering what is worthy and not worthy, with the thought, "Is there any use to one by this going or is there not?" One does this not having gone immediately, just by the influence of the thought, at the very moment the thought of going forwards is born. In this context, purpose is growth according to the Dhamma, by way of visiting a relic shrine, Tree of Enlightenment (Bodhi Tree), the Sangha, the elders, and a place where the dead are cast (a cemetery) for seeing the unlovely (a corpse, a skeleton and the like). By visiting a relic shrine, a Bodhi Tree, or the Sangha, for producing spiritual interest, and by meditating on the waning of that interest one could reach arahantship; by visiting elders and by getting established in their instruction one could reach arahantship; and by visiting a place where the dead are cast, by seeing a corpse there and by producing the first absorption (pathamajjhana] in that unlovely object, one could reach arahantship. So the visiting of these is purposeful. [Tika] "Arahantship". This is mentioned by way of the highest kind of exposition. Since the generating of quietude and insight too is growth according to the Dhamma for a bhikkhu. Some [keci] however say: Increase by way of material gain, too, is (a worthy) purpose, since material gain is helpful for the holy life. [T] "Some" = Dwellers at the Abhayagiri Vihara at Anuradhapura. [T] "Material gain" = Material requisites like robes. 19581 From: Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thunder & Lightning Hi Herman, I agree we can learn something about anatta by contemplating the deportment of wind and rain. The wind blows east or west and the rain falls down but whence the wind blows is completely different from how fast it blows and that the rain falls down is completely different from how much rain falls down. Similarly, when we run in the wind and rain, hunched-up against the rain, leaning into the wind, this is competely different from our state of mind. We can see this also when washing dishes. The way we hold our head and shoulders, swing our arms, step left and right, forward and back is separate and distinct from how we feel. This separateness is the heart of anatta, imo. But we don't need to cut off our arms and legs, or banish family members, in order to realize separateness. It is already the case. We can just look and see. Larry 19582 From: Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation and Abhidhamma Hi Nina, Are you saying that rupa is meaningful? If so, that would seem to contradict the difference between nama and rupa. Larry 19583 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Howard, I like this comment you put in your other post (to RobertK) H: “What interests me particularly in this is the amazing complexity involved: the multileveled, intricate ramifications of the conditioning-conditioned process. Not a simple matter, for sure!” ..... Let me add another quote by U Narada who translated the Patthana (Conditional Relations) into English: “In essence, Patthana deals with the conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed (sankhata) states that arise and cease at every instant withut a break and which make up what are said to be animate and inanimate things. These states arise dependent on root and the other conditions and are not at the will and mercy of any being. They do so, not from one cause alone, but from many causes such as the conditioning forces given in the Analytical Exposition of the Conditions. So Patthana is the teaching of anatta.” ***** --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree with most of the following points of yours, and those > about > which I have reservations are not dismissed in their entirety by me. ..... Good, I’m very glad to hear that we are so much in accord in these areas. ..... >The > ones > with which I have varying degrees of reservation about are (4) and (6). > My reservation about (4) is minor, namely that it is unknown to > me > whether the 24 relations constitute a complete and correct analysis. (I > do > not presume that the Patthana came directly from the Buddha.) ..... I’ll try not to belabour this point because as you say, your reservation is minor. From U Narada’s Guide to Conditional Relations: “Although there are only 24 main divisions, there are in all 129,232 Patthana ”. “Not a simple matter, for sure!” as you say, regardless of the origins. U Narada further says in the Introduction to the Patthana transl: “...instead of simply arguing whether Patthana, which is part of Abhidhamma, was expounded by The Buddha or not, this translated Text should be studied and understood. Then the facts should be tested as Patthana deals with all the causes and effects that arise and cease in the continuity of beings at every instant of the day. Only then will one be in a position to make a personal decision as to whether The Buddha expounded Patthana or not.” ..... Hmmm, I see it as a bit of a Catch-22. It takes some confidence to study the conditions in any detail and yet without some detailed study, one is bound to be sceptical.....maybe we can continue paddling near the shore and just take a plunge in the waves when there are conditions to do so;-) (U Narada also adds a section in the Introduction with references to the Abhidhamma teaching in the Suttanta and Vinaya. I can type this out (or part of it) if anyone is interested.) Miss Horner, in her foreward to this text, also discusses the disappearance of the Teachings: “In the Anagatavamsa and some of the Pali Commentaries it is stated that as time goes on and on the Buddha’s Dhamma will decay owing to five “disappearances” affecting its survival. In the “disappearance of learning”, the Great Patthana itself will decay first, other parts of the Pitaka following till all have fallen into oblivion..........They (the translators) believe that if Patthana can be understood in the West "as it really is" (yathaaabhuuta), a means of keeping it alive for an additional length of time will have been achieved; hence the survival of the rest of the Abhidhamma-pitaka, of the Sutta-pitaka and of the Vinaya-pitaka will be assured also.” ..... (Nearly 30 years ago, by accident as I was looking for the address of the place to buy a PTS text or two, I ended up spending a delightful afternoon with Miss Horner in the library/sitting room of her home in London. I knew little at the time about all her great work for PTS and the translations of texts, but she inspired and encouraged me to study and she seemed so delighted to hear of my interest, being quite young at the time . She invited me to return, but I felt too shy to disturb her again. I know she'd be happy to know these texts are being discussed here.) ..... > My reservation about (6) is with the word 'predominantly'. I > don't > know this to be true generally. I don't doubt at all, however, that > one's own > kamma is a condition for the experiences you mention. The mere fact of > one's > being in the given realm of experience is a kammically conditioned > factor. ..... Just to repeat the point that you are referring to: Sarah “6. Seeing, hearing and so on, are examples of actualities predominantly conditioned by kamma. Certain rupas are also kamma produced, eg masculinity/femininity, from the first moment of conception.” ..... I mentioned predominantly because there are always other factors involved, but when we read repeatedly in the suttas and elsewhere about kamma being the cause, it means, as I understand, that it is predominant, but not the only cause. For example, in the sutta I quoted from recently in AN about the different kinds of women (bk of 4s, (197))I wrote” “Queen Mallika asks “what is the cause and reason why some women here are ugly, ill formed, unsightly, and also poor, destitute, with little wealth, with little influence ? and what is the cause and reason why some women here are ugly...but rich, with great wealth and property, with great influence?...beautiful......with little influence?....beautiful....rich.....with great influence? The Buddha explains that some women are “irascible..irritable....loses her temper.....anger, hatred and resentent....................When she is reborn she is ugly, ill formed, unsightly, and also poor, destitute, with little wealth, with little influence.” Then it goes through the various permutations and of course the last one who never displays anger, who is generous, unenvious and so on is reborn beautiful, rich and with great influence.” ***** Leaving aside detailed Abhidhamma details for now, would you accept that in suttas such as this one, the causes implied are ‘predominantly’ those of kamma as far as the rupas and vipaka cittas concerned are involved? ..... H: > BTW, there is another sense in which I would say that ALL experience is > due > to kamma, but that sense includes not only one's *own* kamma, but also > the > kamma of other namarupic streams. (I see namarupic streams as not > isolated, > but interacting.) ..... Thanks for bringing this up. The ten principles were obviously not all-encompassing;-) I understand your point . I would say that not only is one’s *own* kamma a cause, also actions of others (as you suggest) and many other factors/condtions as well. In the 24 conditions enumerated, kamma condition is just one. Another condition is ‘decisive support condition’ which is divided into 3 kinds. The 3rd kind, natural decisive support condition is very broad and includes concepts. So for example, under this condition, the concept of a person can be a condition for attachment or metta, friends and books can be a condition for different kinds of study or influence. Dwelling places, climate and food are all discussed in the suttas as a condition for listening to the Teachings, eg in the Way, it mentioned the ‘perfect climate’ as a condition for the people of the Kuru country to be able to live healthily and happily listen to the Buddha. So even when we say that kamma is the decisive and powerful cause for vipaka cittas to arise, other conditions and factors, including actions of others, can also be very decisive as you suggest. I also understand very little about the intricacies and certainly the more I ‘paddle’or 'dabble' the deeper the complex web of conditions appears. I started off before by saying that kamma, supported by many other conditions produces vipaka cittas such as seeing or hearing. Htoo also mentioned in one of his series that in order for seeing to arise, there must be a)visible object, b) eye base, c) light and d) attention. We read further in the summaries on the Patthana that when eye consciousness and the related 7 mental factors arise, it is by way of 18 of the 24 conditions. I appreciate your careful consideration of all these matters, Howard and I think the open-minded checking and considering rather than any blind believing or counting of categories is the way to go. Somehow, your comments and points are always helpful for my own reflections (inc. a recognition of areas that are not clear to me) and a condition for me to pull out a few texts;-) I look forward to any further comments from you or anyone else. Nina, RobK, Kom or others may also add any additional comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 19584 From: nidive Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 0:43am Subject: Re: (3)Rupa As A Ladder Hi Htoo Naing, > 28.Aniccatarupa(Disappearance of rupa) Can you explain more on this? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19585 From: jaranoh Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 0:57am Subject: Discussion on Satipatthana at the Foundation week 5 no 1 -----------------------------Disclaimer------------------------- The following is an excerpt from regular discussion (in Thai) held at the Foudation, Bangkok, Thailand, Sunday afternoon. The subject of the discussion since early June 2002 has been, but not limited to, Satipatthana. Those that do not directly address the subject has been removed to keep coherency. It is Ell's intention to translate interesting (subjective?) passages from this discussion. I will try my best to keep this regular, but can't promise. :-) I am not a native speaker of English, and my friends now say that my Thai is 'strange', but I will try my best to relay the messages accurately as possible. Feedback highly appreciated.--jaran, jaranoh@y... (SarahA, this account is now active. ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------- (Week 5 is when it starts to interest me.) Best Regards, jaran :-) Week 5, July 7, 2002 Moderator: Before we continue, does anyone have any questions? Q: Why is taruna-vipassana considered cinta-~na~na? A: There are two levels of vipassana ~na~na: taruna vipassana (lit. beginning, young or weak) and palava vipassana (lit. stronger). Taruna-vipassana refers to the first three levels of vipassana ~na~na, namely, nama-rupa pariccheda~na~na, pacaya-parikkhaha ~na~na and samasana ~na~na. These are ``beginning'' or the ``weaker'' ~na~na. As a vipassana ~na~na arises to, say, clearly distinguish the characteristics of nama from that of rupa, in the case of nama-rupa pariccheda-~na~na, the subsequent moments of citta, consider or contemplate the vipassana ~na~na that has just fallen. The latter is not vipassana ~na~na; rather, it's a cinta ~na~na--the contemplation level of understanding. On the contrary, vipassana ~na~na from the 4th to the 12th levels, is of higher level of pa~n~na. This is called palava-vipassana; the characteristics of the higher level of understanding is apparent to the vipassana ~na~na itself. There is no ``contemplation'' arising between vipassana ~na~na's. Q: Regarding the contemplation between the vipassana ~na~na's, does it have pannatti, concept, as its object? KSupee: It is the same as that of the vipassana ~na~na... ASujin: ...it is a more skillful understanding. Q: ...more skillful understanding than just knowing the characteristics of nama and rupa? ASujin: Yes. We learn about citta, cetasika, rupa and sabhava dhammas that they are ``anatta'', but how much do we understand their meaning (attha). Do we understand their characteristics including their anatta-ness? It this enough? Of course, we all have to admit that it is never enough. It must always grow. Experiencing the characteristics of dhamma, it is not different from the ordinary at this moment. The important thing is the removal of the idea of Self when panna arises to discern the characteristics of dhamma. There are many levels of understanding. When listening to dhamma, we understand that there is dhamma: citta, cetasika and rupa having their characteristics to be studied. However, this is understanding of listening level; we don't know their characteristics despite the presence of dhamma now. Therefore, the more skillful understanding knows when listening level arises and knows that it does not ``chip away'' the idea of Self. Dhammas arise and fall away now, but do not appear to more skillful of panna until the arising of sati. When sati do not arise to be aware of dhamma, the dhamma are known by citta, and citta take them for beings and concepts or stories. It is like this to all of us now until the arising of sati to be aware of characteristics of that dhammas. The nature of each dhamma gradually appear to sati as dhamma is discerned by sati again and again (when there are right conditions) until they become clear to vipassana ~na~na via mano-dvara. We must have the right understanding of the teachings and Path. When sati arises to be aware of characteristics of paramattha-dhamma, we know that there is nothing we can cause anything to arise or fall way. Otherwise, we try to ``do'' something to end suffering or to know the dhamma. ...when sati arises, the panna realizes that it is different from the moments without sati. There is no need to discuss how many cetasika, but the quality dhamma is apparent no matter how much or how little. And from that moment gradually sati is aware of and panna understand the quality of dhamma as satipatthana re-occur when there are right conditions. 19586 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana practice and life Transformed Hi Smallchap, Good to see you posting after a looong break;-);-)So glad you're still around. --- "smallchap " wrote: > > I have been practising anapana/vipassana for about 18 years. It has > not transformed my life. Life goes on as usual for me. I have not > transformed others' lives too through vipassana. Lives go on as > usual for them too. > > :) ..... I smiled a lot when I read these comments.....yes, life has to go on as usual for all of us. Looking for some kind of transformation can be a mistake I think and is usually just an indication of more lobha and desire for some special results. > > smallchap > p.s. I consider life transform to be from a puthujjana to an ariya. ..... Good answer! I'm waiting for Dinesh's response..... Metta, Sarah ====== > 19587 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 1:50am Subject: More on Kamma (was: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi Eddie, I think this may have been your first message on DSG (sometimes I’m not sure;-)). Anyway, welcome either way and thanks for posting some interesting comments: --- Eddie Lou wrote: > All based on some kind of Karmic energy level still to > be discovered by science. > all our action (kamma) come into played and everything > is accountable and no administrator all automatic as > in the law of conservation of energy or other physical > laws. ..... This reminded me of some further comments U Narada makes in “Guide to Conditional Relations” based on commentary notes to the Patthana, concerning kamma condition. ‘Asynchronous kamma’ refers to “the volition which produces a result at a different instant of time” as opposed to conascent kamma or cetana which does not bring results. “.....Although an asynchronous faultless or faulty volition arises for one thought-moment and then ceases, this is not the end of it. For a special force is left behind in the mind’s successive continuity so that at some time in the future, the appropriate result of that volition will be produced when the proper conditions are satisfied.............” He gives a helpful example from the Paticcasamuppada-vibhanga commentary: “A person borrows money from another. This act of borrowing is finalised and ceases as soon as the money is received by the borrower. But because the money was borrowed, there is the indebtedness to repay the loan either in a lump sum or in instalments. The borrower has to abide by his promise to repay and this cannot be avoided by any means. The main concern here is not whether there has been the past act of borrowing or not, but the responsibility to repay the loan. Only when the whole amount has been paid will there be relief from this responsibility. In a similar way, when an act of kamma is performed, the kamma, before it ceases, leaves behind a special force of asynchronous kamma condition which will, at some time in the future, produce an appropriate result when the conditions for its arising are satisfied. And as long as the result is not produced this indebtedness to kamma in the round of rebirths is ever present. The main concern here is not whether there has been the past act of kamma or not, but the indebtedness which will surely produce a result. But once a result is produced, the indebtedness to kamma no longer holds and no other result will be brought about because of this particular kamma. But if there is no opportunity for a result to be produced, ie kamma is no longer effective (ahosi kamma), then the force of volition ceases.” Later we read: “There is no place where materiality and mentality are stored for their continual arising and ceasing in succession. Just as when a match is struck a flame appears from nowhere and then disappears, so also, when object and base coincide consciousness and mental factors arise from nowhere, last for a thought-moment and then cease and vanish altogether. In this condition, volition, which is also an ultimate reality, also arises and ceases in the same fashion. “However, the force, which is left behind after volition ceases, is not destroyed and may be present for countless worlds in the successive continuity of a being, bound by craving, conceit and wrong views, to produce a result suddenly. The result cannot be foreseen and seems to be spontaneous. Indeed these forces give strange results. As instances, all of a sudden 1) a poor man wins a lottery and becomes rich and 2) presidents, prime ministers and national leaders are assassinated or gaoled.” ***** Hope to hear more from you Eddie and if you’d care to add any info about yourself, where you live or about your interest in Buddhism, we’d all be glad to hear. With metta, Sarah ====== 19588 From: nidive Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Sarah (& Howard), I have read this "Did they deserve it?" thread. I got a "shock" when Howard said this to me in one of the previous posts: > Yes - eye, ear, tongue, body, and mind are all old kamma. And, > yes, the attack one makes with one's body, speech, or intellect on > another is new kamma. That attack is not necessarily at all the > vipaka of one's victim; the kammic debt is one's own, and there is > usually no legitimate justification to be made in term's of the > kamma of the victim. The degree of involvement of the victim's > kamma as condition for the attack on that victim can range from > considerable to none, it is generally unknown, and, except when > crystal clear, it should not be presumed in one's "moral > computations". At least that is how I see the matter. It is to my understanding that the Buddha never taught that Person B's unarisen vipaka is the cause of Person A's new kamma. Person A's new kamma is caused by his/her own attachment, aversion and ignorance. Person A's new kamma merely provided the necessary ingredient/condition for Person B's unarisen vipaka to arise. I don't see any connection between Person B's unarisen vipaka being the cause of the decision by Person A to carry out the attack. Therefore, in the case of the victims of 911 in that article, the carrying out of the attack on the Twin Towers by the terrorists merely provided the necessary ingredient/condition for the unarisen vipaka (think of destructive kamma) of the victims to arise. But the unarisen vipaka of the victims did not cause the decision by the terrorists to carry out the attack. That decision is caused by the terrorists' attachment, aversion and ignorance. I do hope you explain more on this if possible. And I don't see how I am wrong when I say that our very existence is simply kamma. Or should I say "our very existence is predominantly kamma"? I equate kamma as samsara. RobertK said: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19564 --------------------------------------------- > Dependent on vipaka vatta, there arises kilesa vatta; > and dependent on kilesa vatta, there arises kamma vatta. {added by me} > (and dependent on kamma vatta, there arises vipaka vatta.) > The revolution of these three vattas has being and is occuring > continually throughout samasara vatta. --------------------------------------------- (1) If kamma vatta ceases, vipaka vatta (renew existence / becoming) and kilesa vatta ceases. (2) If kilesa vatta ceases, kamma vatta and vipaka vatta (renew existence / becoming) ceases. (3) If vipaka vatta (renew existence / becoming) ceases, kilesa and kamma vatta ceases. An arahant is no longer bound to the revolution of these three vattas because his cittas (during javana) are kiriya-cittas. From the perspectives of (1), (2) and (3), our very existence revolves around kamma; our very existence is kamma. "Swee Boon" is nothing but kamma that has the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Such is this compounded thing called "Swee Boon". Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19589 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:28am Subject: I'm Back! Hi All, After a long break, I'm back to the DSG. I may not be posting as frequently as in the past (work is piling up), but I will be participating again. Metta, Rob M :-) 19590 From: Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/12/03 3:42:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I like this comment you put in your other post (to RobertK) > > H: “What interests me particularly in this is the > amazing complexity involved: the multileveled, intricate ramifications of > the conditioning-conditioned process. Not a simple matter, for sure!â€? > ..... > Let me add another quote by U Narada who translated the Patthana > (Conditional Relations) into English: > > “In essence, Patthana deals with the conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed > (sankhata) states that arise and cease at every instant withut a break and > which make up what are said to be animate and inanimate things. These > states arise dependent on root and the other conditions and are not at the > will and mercy of any being. They do so, not from one cause alone, but > from many causes such as the conditioning forces given in the Analytical > Exposition of the Conditions. So Patthana is the teaching of anatta.â€? > ***** > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > >-------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I agree with most of the following points of yours, and those > >about > >which I have reservations are not dismissed in their entirety by me. > ..... > Good, I’m very glad to hear that we are so much in accord in these areas. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: We are especially in accord in the recognition of what a brilliant and extraordinarily complex work the Abhidhamma is. I wish I had the opportunity to peruse the Abhidhamma Pitaka, itself, in English, and not just synopses or little finger manuals, or commentaries. I strongly suspect I would gain from that. While I think it very unlikely the Abhidhamma Pitaka (or, rather, what was there incorporated) was the direct work of the Buddha, I still consider it of immense value. --------------------------------------------------- > ..... > >The > >ones > >with which I have varying degrees of reservation about are (4) and (6). > > My reservation about (4) is minor, namely that it is unknown to > >me > >whether the 24 relations constitute a complete and correct analysis. (I > >do > >not presume that the Patthana came directly from the Buddha.) > ..... > I’ll try not to belabour this point because as you say, your reservation > is minor. > > From U Narada’s Guide to Conditional Relations: “Although there are only > 24 main divisions, there are in all 129,232 Patthana relations>â€?. > > “Not a simple matter, for sure!â€? as you say, regardless of the origins. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Agreed. ---------------------------------------------- > > U Narada further says in the Introduction to the Patthana transl: > > “...instead of simply arguing whether Patthana, which is part of > Abhidhamma, was expounded by The Buddha or not, this translated Text > should be studied and understood. Then the facts should be tested as > Patthana deals with all the causes and effects that arise and cease in the > continuity of beings at every instant of the day. Only then will one be > in a position to make a personal decision as to whether The Buddha > expounded Patthana or not.â€? > ..... > Hmmm, I see it as a bit of a Catch-22. It takes some confidence to study > the conditions in any detail and yet without some detailed study, one is > bound to be sceptical.....maybe we can continue paddling near the shore > and just take a plunge in the waves when there are conditions to do so;-) > > (U Narada also adds a section in the Introduction with references to the > Abhidhamma teaching in the Suttanta and Vinaya. I can type this out (or > part of it) if anyone is interested.) > > Miss Horner, in her foreward to this text, also discusses the > disappearance of the Teachings: > > “In the Anagatavamsa and some of the Pali Commentaries it is stated that > as time goes on and on the Buddha’s Dhamma will decay owing to five > “disappearancesâ€? affecting its survival. In the “disappearance of > learningâ€?, the Great Patthana itself will decay first, other parts of the > Pitaka following till all have fallen into oblivion..........They (the > translators) believe that if Patthana can be understood in the West "as it > really is" (yathaaabhuuta), a means of keeping it alive for an additional > length of time will have been achieved; hence the survival of the rest of > the Abhidhamma-pitaka, of the Sutta-pitaka and of the Vinaya-pitaka will > be assured also.â€? > ..... > (Nearly 30 years ago, by accident as I was looking for the address of the > place to buy a PTS text or two, I ended up spending a delightful afternoon > with Miss Horner in the library/sitting room of her home in London. I knew > little at the time about all her great work for PTS and the translations > of texts, but she inspired and encouraged me to study and she seemed so > delighted to hear of my interest, being quite young at the time . She > invited me to return, but I felt too shy to disturb her again. I know > she'd be happy to know these texts are being discussed here.) > ..... > > My reservation about (6) is with the word 'predominantly'. I > >don't > >know this to be true generally. I don't doubt at all, however, that > >one's own > >kamma is a condition for the experiences you mention. The mere fact of > >one's > >being in the given realm of experience is a kammically conditioned > >factor. > ..... > Just to repeat the point that you are referring to: > > Sarah “6. Seeing, hearing and so on, are examples of actualities > predominantly > conditioned by kamma. Certain rupas are also kamma produced, eg > masculinity/femininity, from the first moment of conception.â€? > ..... > I mentioned predominantly because there are always other factors involved, > but when we read repeatedly in the suttas and elsewhere about kamma being > the cause, it means, as I understand, that it is predominant, but not the > only cause. For example, in the sutta I quoted from recently in AN about > the different kinds of women (bk of 4s, (197))I wroteâ€? > > “Queen Mallika asks “what is the cause and reason why some women here are > ugly, ill formed, unsightly, and also poor, destitute, with little wealth, > with little influence ? and > what is the cause and reason why some women here are ugly...but rich, with > great wealth and property, with great influence?...beautiful......with > little influence?....beautiful....rich.....with great influence? > > The Buddha explains that some women are “irascible..irritable....loses her > temper.....anger, hatred and resentent....................When she is > reborn she is ugly, ill formed, unsightly, and also poor, destitute, with > little wealth, with little influence.â€? > > Then it goes through the various permutations and of course the last one > who never displays anger, who is generous, unenvious and so on is reborn > beautiful, rich and with great influence.â€? > ***** > Leaving aside detailed Abhidhamma details for now, would you accept that > in suttas such as this one, the causes implied are ‘predominantly’ those > of kamma as far as the rupas and vipaka cittas concerned are involved? ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would. While I consider personal kamma a factor in most mental states, but varying in importance from state to state, I certainly consider it predominant in the matter of the realm and conditions of birth. More generally, I consider it the *single* most telling condition for most of our experiences, but still almost always a "minority stock holder" because of the sheer number of conditions involved in toto. Now, in specific situations, such as assault of a person by another, the sequence of mental events in the one attacked that can be specifically associated with that conventional event, as opposed to those mental states that are reactive (or even just affective in the sense of vedana), are seen by me as states for which personal kamma is less than a predominant player. To speak less formally, I mainly blame the attacker for the attack, and not the one attacked, and I think that any analysis that points in the opposite direction is flawed. -------------------------------------------------- > ..... > > H: >BTW, there is another sense in which I would say that ALL experience > is > >due > >to kamma, but that sense includes not only one's *own* kamma, but also > >the > >kamma of other namarupic streams. (I see namarupic streams as not > >isolated, > >but interacting.) > ..... > Thanks for bringing this up. The ten principles were obviously not > all-encompassing;-) > > I understand your point . I would say that not only is one’s *own* kamma a > cause, also actions of others (as you suggest) and many other > factors/condtions as well. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, you *do* understand my point. --------------------------------------------------- > > In the 24 conditions enumerated, kamma condition is just one. Another > condition is ‘decisive support condition’ which is divided into 3 kinds. > The 3rd kind, natural decisive support condition is very broad and > includes concepts. So for example, under this condition, the concept of a > person can be a condition for attachment or metta, friends and books can > be a condition for different kinds of study or influence. Dwelling places, > climate and food are all discussed in the suttas as a condition for > listening to the Teachings, eg in the Way, it mentioned the ‘perfect > climate’ as a condition for the people of the Kuru country to be able to > live healthily and happily listen to the Buddha. > > So even when we say that kamma is the decisive and powerful cause for > vipaka cittas to arise, other conditions and factors, including actions of > others, can also be very decisive as you suggest. I also understand very > little about the intricacies and certainly the more I ‘paddle’or 'dabble' > the deeper the complex web of conditions appears. > > I started off before by saying that kamma, supported by many other > conditions produces vipaka cittas such as seeing or hearing. > > Htoo also mentioned in one of his series that in order for seeing to > arise, there must be a)visible object, b) eye base, c) light and d) > attention. We read further in the summaries on the Patthana that when eye > consciousness and the related 7 mental factors arise, it is by way of 18 > of the 24 conditions. > > I appreciate your careful consideration of all these matters, Howard and I > think the open-minded checking and considering rather than any blind > believing or counting of categories is the way to go. Somehow, your > comments and points are always helpful for my own reflections (inc. a > recognition of areas that are not clear to me) and a condition for me to > pull out a few texts;-) ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, that's amazing! ;-)) But I'm pleased that it is so. ------------------------------------------------ > > I look forward to any further comments from you or anyone else. Nina, > RobK, Kom or others may also add any additional comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19591 From: Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] I'm Back! Hey, Rob! Great to hear from you!! Welcome back. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/12/03 9:29:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi All, > > After a long break, I'm back to the DSG. > > I may not be posting as frequently as in the past (work is piling > up), but I will be participating again. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19592 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:10am Subject: RE: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Dear Howard & All, This is just my own musings/rambling.... > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > To speak less formally, I > mainly blame the attacker for the attack, and not > the one attacked, and I > think that any analysis that points in the > opposite direction is flawed. > -------------------------------------------------- > The V. Mahamogallana at the end of his life was beaten to death by the robbers. He is said to escape the robbers for 7 different times (with his supernormal power). In the end, it is said he knew that he could not escape the results of his kamma. From abhidhamma perspective, some cittas in the 5 sense door processes are (always) results of kamma, the same kamma if within the same process. These vipaka cittas are also conditioned by other factors (place where one live, which existence one is born into, which stature, etc.), but without the kamma committed in the past, these cittas cannot possibly arise. Regarding blaming the receiver or the doer, how could we blame anybody except the kamma (volition)? With the bad kamma, bad results are (almost) certain to arise. This is why we shouldn't only be shameful of akusala states, we should also fear what they bring. But as long as the kandhas continue to exist, there are conditions for the undesirable vipaka to arise. The Buddha, the supreme accumulator of all wholesome states, received the results of bad kamma even after he has become enlightened: nobody escapes the results of kamma. Our akusala states are predominantly conditioned by our own accumulations and latent kilesa. The arahant has no such states because he has already eradicated the latent kilesa. The akusala states are not directly conditioned by the past kamma: this is true within ourselves as in others. Akusala is akusala, kusala is kusala, and vipaka is vipaka. I don't think I deserve the bodily pain that I am experiencing either, but here I am... kom 19593 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:04am Subject: Calm and Insight. Henepola. Dear Swee Boon, I have been following all your interesting studies of this subject. I also studied the book by Ven. Henepola, I have it here at hand. It is well documented in the suttas, and I studied those. If you like to refer to the book, it is easier for me if you mention the page no. When in Rangoon, our friend U Nyun gave me The Manuels of Buddhism by Ledi Sayadaw. He explained very well conditions. This subject is heavy stuff, so I would like to discuss this in small sections. Better not more than one sutta at a time, this is much better for me. This subject is, as you said, worth discussing, and I think not in one Email only. I prefer books to links, sometimes suttas are hard to find from the link heading. This time Yuganaddha, coupled or in tandem: your questions, I would say, see below, the Commentary. (1) develop insight preceded by tranquility This refers to arahants released both ways, right? The tranquility attained is that of both the mundane jhana and the supramundane path. (2) develop tranquility preceded by insight This refers to arahants released by insight alone, right? The tranquility attained is that of the supramundane path only. (3) develop tranquillity in tandem with insight What does this mean? (4) restlessness concerning the Dhamma well under control What does this mean? The Co explains that "the Way" (in your tran the Path) is the first stage of enlightenment. As to the second factor, the monk is already used to developing insight and then samadhi arises. As to the third factor, he is aware and considers the sankharas, jhanafactors, in between the different stages of jhana he enters and emerges from. As to the fourth factor, he has abandoned the ten defilements of vipassana. He does not cling to samatha nor to vipassana. no 1, as you see: first stage only. 2: I do not think so. I learnt recently in Bgk: 4 is sukkha vipassana, it concerns mundane development. And: in the Patisambiddha the chapter on yuganaddha: here it concerns lokuttara maggacitta. Then samatha and vipassana are a pair and none exceeds the other. Nibbana is the object. Next time we can discuss Gradual S IV, 41 or points from above mentioned books. Forgive me if I delay in answering, this is by force of circumstances. Looking forward, Nina 19594 From: smallchap Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:48pm Subject: [dsg] Cula Satapanna (was: Vipassana practice and life Transformed) Hi Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Smallchap, > > Good to see you posting after a looong break;-);-)So glad you're still > around. Glad that you still remember me. I am always around, lurking. ;) > Good answer! I read about Cula Satapana will not be reborn in the four lower realms. I welcome comments from you and list members on who is a cula sotapanna. "To understand Dependent Origination or to gain Knowledge in comprehending the Law of Causality enables one to discard the three aforesaid Wrong Views of No-cause, Unjustified Cause of Creation, and misleading belief in past-kamma alone. In fact this Knowledge equips one to be a virtuous one, ever freed from the ignoble destinies of the Four Lower Worlds, a Cula-sotapanna, a future-stream-winner' - so the Commentaries say. Hence a goal well worth striving for." -- The Manual of Light, Ledi Sayadaw smallchap 19595 From: smallchap Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cula Sotapanna (was: Vipassana practice and life Transformed) Correction! Satapanna should read sotapanna. smallchap 19596 From: Eddie Lou Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Ken, You described it really good, that is what exactly I have read in one of the books. It is said (or Buddha said?) if we can pile up all the skeletons from all the lives we have been through, it will be a high mountain. The criss-crossing of our life paths among us is incredibly or uncountably many. Now back to the title topic, It could be related to one event when Buddha (he always help those the extremes - the worst and the best and not in between average one may be too many of them) found one (his relative?) was v ery close to Nirvana and also close to marriage to a young girl. So Buddha intervened to dissuade him from any marriage by painting a negative picture of girls or women. Buddha took him to deva world and showed him some ugly female monkeys and beautiful devas. Buddha asked him to compare all these with his wife to be. He was told that Nirvana when attained is better these or any other things. He was finally dissuaded and I think attain nirvana. I would like to hear any comments on this possibility of the relationship to this title topic. --- "kenhowardau " wrote: > > Hi Herman, Howard and James, > > > I agree with your comments about blaming the victim; > I should have > chosen my words more carefully. > > > No doubt, a Buddha knows the precise workings of > kamma/vipaka but he > also knows the world as mere fleeting phenomena. So > he knows that in > reality, there is no victim to blame. > > > I think another way to be less inclined towards > praising and blaming > is to remember the nature of samsara. As I > understand it, the wheel > of birth and rebirth has been turning for > uncountable aeons; we must > all have been at the top occasionally [as gods], at > the bottom > occasionally [as demons], and we must have been just > about everywhere > in between. (I can't quote any references for > this.) > > > If this is right, then each of us has committed > every possible crime > many times over; today's saint is yesterday's > villain and vice > versa. We're all in the same boat, all on the same > giant ferris > wheel, it's meaningless to praise one person and > blame another. > > > Kind regards, > > Ken H 19597 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Cula Satapanna (was: Vipassana practice and life Transformed) Dear Smallchap, > -----Original Message----- > From: smallchap > "To understand Dependent Origination or to gain > Knowledge in > comprehending the Law of Causality enables one to > discard the three > aforesaid Wrong Views of No-cause, Unjustified > Cause of Creation, and > misleading belief in past-kamma alone. In fact > this Knowledge equips > one to be a virtuous one, ever freed from the > ignoble destinies of > the Four Lower Worlds, a Cula-sotapanna, a > future-stream-winner' - so > the Commentaries say. Hence a goal well worth > striving for." -- The > Manual of Light, Ledi Sayadaw > I found one (Thai) commentaries (maybe there are others, but cula can be spelled so many different way in Thai) to the Abhidhamma Pitaka (Vibhanga), Satipatthana Vibhanga. Here's a rough translation (from Thai): after explaining Nama-Rupa Paricheta Nana (nama-rupa distinction) in the previous paragraph: ... The Bikkhu then considers that nama-rupa doesn't arise by itself, but arises because of conditions. What then are the conditions of nama and rupa? So he learns the conditions of nama and rupa [as it truly is, directly], and know nama-rupa arises because of ignorance (avijja), because of attachment (tanha), because of volition (kamma), and because of nutrition (ahara). He then crosses the doubt across the 3 time (kala): past, future, and present, that only conditions, and the dhamma arising out of conditions, arise. There is no satta (animal) or person (puggala) [beyond this]: this is only conditioned piles [sankhara kandhas?]. This vipassana [nana] has sankhara dhamma as its object, thus it is named Yataparinna. When the Bikkhu learns thus, he is said to have been established in the foundation of the Buddha's Dispensation. He is established, he has reached what can be relied on. His rebirth is certain [it doesn't say exactly what this is, but from the context, this is implied, and this phrase may have been explained earlier]. .. The brackets above are my additions, and the parentheses are the Thai-Pali words directly used in the commentarial translation (in Thai). You can hope that the person explaining the Vibhanga has profound wisdom, perhaps even more than a cula-sotapanna. kom ps: I think we can see that this is a clear comprehension (wisdom) that is beyond hearing or consideration wisdom: this is vipassana nana. 19598 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Dear Eddie & Ken, Here's the sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3-02.h tml V. Nanda is praised by the Buddha to be one who excelled in protecting the faculties. kom ps: I can appreciate the saying that the Buddha is the tamer of all men who can be tamed in this sutta. I don't see how it is related to the titled topic. It is normal: there is always a better looking/sounding/smelling/tasting/tangible thing. Don't we look all our lives for these things? > -----Original Message----- > From: Eddie Lou [mailto:eddielou_us@y...] Weight Age Gender Female Male 19599 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:46pm Subject: Conditions and Bangkok Meeting Apr 25th (was: I'm Back!) Hi RobM (& Anyone in reach of Bangkok at end of post), --- "robmoult " wrote: > Hi All, > > After a long break, I'm back to the DSG. > > I may not be posting as frequently as in the past (work is piling > up), but I will be participating again. ..... You've been missed.....I hope you have a chance to catch up soon. Pls let us know sometime how your Abhidhamma lectures and Notes are going and direct us to anything we should be looking at. While you're looking in, I thought of you when I was quoting from U Narada's "Guide to Conditional Relations". This book from PTS is an introduction with commentary notes to the Patthana itself and I've always found it very helpful. I know you would too. In the preface, it talks about the sense-door and mind-door processes and gives a footnote. In the footnote, U Narada says "The mental processes were not made up by the commentators. They took them from proximity condition of the Patthana expounded by the Buddha. These mental processes are dealt with in the proximity condition of this Guide." As stated, under Proximity Condition (Anantara Paccaya) and Contiguity condition (Sammanantara Paccaya), the processes are detailed along with the details discussed before about attainment of extinction, anagami and arahant fruition consciousness, rupa planes and so on (to indicate that proximity condition is not destroyed 'by the intervention of materiality'. "According to the fixed order of the mental process , the preceding consciousnesses are related to the subsequent consciousnesses by the force of proximity condition. this is expounded as "Preceding states are related to subsequent states.' Also, it is only after the preceding consciousness ceases that the subsequent consciousness arises. Therefore, the former is of the past and the latter is of the present. This difference in time of the two thought-moments is expounded as 'Past state is relate to present state by proximity condition.' all such knowledge can be ascribed only to omniscience." ***** If you'd like me to quote any other details from the Guide or to check in the Patthana itself, let me know. It also gives the details of the arahant's death consciousness which may be of interest to others. Again I can add more details, but in conclusion: "And since there is no rebirth after the Arahatta's death-consciousness, the latter can never be a conditioning state. that is why, although the beginning of samsara cannot be known, as pointed out above, there is an end to it. This is the Arahatta's death-consciousness." ================================= Rob, you mentioned to me that you were hoping to join us in Bangkok for discussion with K.Sujin on Friday Apr 25th. I'm mentioning it here (hope you don't mind) well in advance in case anyone else (Rob K, Chris, KC, Swee Boon,Paul,Jaran????) is free to join in addition to those already there. Jon and I will be staying until Sunday, so we'll also be joining discussions on the Sat. If anyone wants more detail, pls contact me off-list. (Jon will also be in Adelaide, Australia in a couple of weeks if anyone is in that region;-)) Metta, Sarah ======== 19600 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 0:26am Subject: RE: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Kom & Howard, Kom wrote: "The V. Mahamogallana at the end of his life was beaten to death by the robbers. He is said to escape the robbers for 7 different times (with his supernormal power). In the end, it is said he knew that he could not escape the results of his kamma." ..... Thanks for this example, Kom, and the extra details. I just checked the details of Mahamogallana’s death. I think it appears in other places with slightly different details, such as in the Anguttara Nikaya commentary, but I have it in the Dhammapada commentary (bk10, story 7, Burlingame transl). We read that after his vicious attack ("they tore him limb from limb, and pounded his bones until they were as small as grains of rice.....", tossed his bones in the bushes and left him for dead), he still went to pay final respects to the Buddha. Later, "the monks began a discussion in the Hall of Truth: 'Elder Mogallana the Great met death which he did not deserve." .At that moment the Teacher approached and asked them, "Monk, what are you saying as you sit here all gathered together?" When they told him, he said, "Monks, if you regard only this present state of existence, Moggallana the Great did indeed meet death which he did not deserve. But as a matter of fact, the manner of death he met was in exact conformity with the deed he committed in a previous state of existence.' " The Buddha then tells the story of the past about how in a previous life he had killed his parents. We read the Buddha says in conclusion: "Monks, by reason of the fact that Moggallana commited so monstrous a sin, he suffered torment for numberless hundreds of thousands of years in Hell; and thereafter, because the fruit of his evil deed was not yet exhausted, in a hundred successive existences he was beaten and pounded to pieces in like manner and so met death. Therefore the manner of death which Moggallana suffered was in exact conformity with his own misdeed in a previous state of existence. Likewise the five hundrd heretics who with the five hundred thieves offended against my son who had committed no offense against them, suffered precisely the form of death which they deserved. For he that offends against the offenseless, incurs misfortune and loss through ten circumstances." He then spoke these Dhammapada verses 137 - 140: "Whosoever visits punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, Whosoever offends against those that are without offense, Such an one will right quickly come to one of ten states: He will incur cruel suffering, or infirmity or injury of the body, Or severe sickness, or loss of mind, Or misfortune proceeding from the king, or a heavy accusation, Or death of relatives, or loss of treasures, Or else the fire of lightning will consume his houses; upon dissolution of the body such a simpleton will go to Hell." ***** Just as when I read the stories of the Petas (hungry ghosts), I’m filled with horror everytime I read this story in full, especially on account of the horror of the results from unwholesome deeds, however horrific they are. Perhaps we can all agree that continuing to perform unwholesome acts of any kind and not seeing the danger in them is the real definintion of ‘having no wit’. As Kom further wrote: "Regarding blaming the receiver or the doer, how could we blame anybody except the kamma (volition)? With the bad kamma, bad results are (almost) certain to arise. This is why we shouldn't only be shameful of akusala states, we should also fear what they bring. But as long as the kandhas continue to exist, there are conditions for the undesirable vipaka to arise. The Buddha, the supreme accumulator of all wholesome states, received the results of bad kamma even after he has become enlightened: nobody escapes the results of kamma. Our akusala states are predominantly conditioned by our own accumulations and latent kilesa. The arahant has no such states because he has already eradicated the latent kilesa. The akusala states are not directly conditioned by the past kamma: this is true within ourselves as in others." Metta and thanks to you both for these reflections. Sarah ======= 19601 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Swee Boon, --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Sarah (& Howard), > > I have read this "Did they deserve it?" thread. > It is to my understanding that the Buddha never taught that Person > B's unarisen vipaka is the cause of Person A's new kamma. > > Person A's new kamma is caused by his/her own attachment, aversion > and ignorance. > > Person A's new kamma merely provided the necessary > ingredient/condition for Person B's unarisen vipaka to arise. ..... That sounds correct. ..... > I don't see any connection between Person B's unarisen vipaka being > the cause of the decision by Person A to carry out the attack. ..... I’m not at all sure Howard was saying that, but I’d rather leave the two of you to discuss that;-) ..... > Therefore, in the case of the victims of 911 in that article, the > carrying out of the attack on the Twin Towers by the terrorists > merely provided the necessary ingredient/condition for the unarisen > vipaka (think of destructive kamma) of the victims to arise. ..... Yes. ..... > But the unarisen vipaka of the victims did not cause the decision by > the terrorists to carry out the attack. That decision is caused by > the terrorists' attachment, aversion and ignorance. ..... Yes...and especially wrong view. ..... > I do hope you explain more on this if possible. ..... Hopefully the MahaMogallana details clarify. Your comments here all seem perfectly correct. ..... > And I don't see how I am wrong when I say that our very existence is > simply kamma. Or should I say "our very existence is predominantly > kamma"? I equate kamma as samsara. ..... This, however, doesn’t make much sense to me. What does it mean when you say ‘our very existence is simply kamma’ or the other statements? Kamma is very specific, as I understand, and refers to the cetana (intention) cetasika (mental factor). As I briefly suggested yesterday, there are two kinds of kamma condition: 1)conascent kamma-condition which as Htoo pointed out arises with every citta, directing the other mental factors; 2) asynchronous kamma which is wholesome or unwholesome and produces results of deeds. If you wish to read more about conditions on line, including kamma condition, I think you’d find Nina’s book “Conditions” very helpful. (Kamma condition is in ch 11). I forget if it is on RobK’s websites yet, but if not, look on Zolag: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... > RobertK said: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19564 > --------------------------------------------- > > Dependent on vipaka vatta, there arises kilesa vatta; > > and dependent on kilesa vatta, there arises kamma vatta. > > {added by me} > > (and dependent on kamma vatta, there arises vipaka vatta.) > > > The revolution of these three vattas has being and is occuring > > continually throughout samasara vatta. > --------------------------------------------- > > (1) If kamma vatta ceases, vipaka vatta (renew existence / becoming) > and kilesa vatta ceases. > > (2) If kilesa vatta ceases, kamma vatta and vipaka vatta (renew > existence / becoming) ceases. > > (3) If vipaka vatta (renew existence / becoming) ceases, kilesa and > kamma vatta ceases. ..... I agree with 1) and 2). Vipaka vatta only ceases at the end of the life of an arahant, i.e parinibbana. ..... > An arahant is no longer bound to the revolution of these three > vattas because his cittas (during javana) are kiriya-cittas. ..... Of course he’s till bound in the sense of experiencing vipaka for that lifetime, but no more conditions for becoming. ..... > From the perspectives of (1), (2) and (3), our very existence > revolves around kamma; our very existence is kamma. "Swee Boon" is > nothing but kamma that has the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and > anatta. Such is this compounded thing called "Swee Boon". ..... Again, you’ve lost me. I think you’re using kamma in a very general sense and we can be rather more precise. Kamma is cetana cetasika to be very precise. There will also be more in U.P. under ‘kamma and vipaka’ I’m sure;-) Let me know if anything here isn’t clear, most definitely not that I’m an expert of any of the details. Metta, Sarah p.s Jon’s going on his own now to Oz as I just mentioned, direct on CX, not via Sing. We’d love you to join us in Bkk. If there’s any chance, let me know off-list =============== 19602 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where is the mind? Hi A, --- "a_doc99 " wrote: > > NOw I'm interesting in "where is the mind?" because American scientists > try to find connection between mind and body. JUst a few weeks ago, > Time magazine of Jan 20, 2003 (Or you can go > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/0,9263,1101030120,00.html ) > had special issue about Mind and Body. ..... Jon tells me ‘A’ is a real Thai nickname;-) We also have an ‘O’ and I believe Kom’s nickname is ‘C’??? I saw the article you mention. I think the point Htoo and I were trying to suggest is that scientifically it may be possible to pinpoint all kinds of locations for all kinds of functions, but this kind of knowledge and location is quite different from what is taught by the Buddha which relates to that which can be directly known and experienced as realities. So in a Buddhist sense, what you refer to as mind and body are concepts, not ‘ultimate realities’ which can be directly known. To give a couple of examples: anger can be known, but ‘brain’ can only be known by thinking. Sound can be known, but ‘body’ again is a concept. ..... > Me as a born Buddhist from Thailand. I remember I did read a Buddhist > book that mentiond the exact locantion of mind (a specific place in > brain) > and the way that mind connects to other 5 senses. So I want to know > more and post in this group the question. ..... I’d be curious to see the reference if you come across it again. According to the Buddhist texts, the heart-base (haddaya vatthu) is the base of the kinds of consciousness apart from those concerned with experiencing the 5 senses (seeing, hearing etc). If you look at this link under heart-base, you’ll see more details. It’s quite different from most scientific ideas, I think: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ..... > Also just a few day I went to > http://origin.dailynews.lk/2002/08/21/fea09.html > It said mind is at the limbic system, which the Buddha has referred to > as > the mind organ. > I still try to find more info about where the mind is, especially what > the > Buddha really taught. Maybe I will find in Abhidhamma Pitaka. > Anyone knows more about this, please let me know. > Thank you ..... I’m not quite with you here. We read in the texts about the 12 bases (ayatanas) and one of these is mind-base or consciousness (manayatana). It refers to all kinds of consciousness. Sometimes I think the translations can be confusing, so mind base or mind organ in the texts are in no way connected to scientific ideas of a mind organ. Pls I'm not sure that this helps at all. I hope Kom or Htoo may add extra details. .....> A (my nick name) > www.wakeupsmart.com ..... Welcome again, A. I hope we can answer some of your questions. Are you still living in Thailand or are you in the States I wonder??? With metta, Sarah ===== 19603 From: nidive Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Dear Sarah, > > And I don't see how I am wrong when I say that our very > > existence is simply kamma. Or should I say "our very existence > > is predominantly kamma"? I equate kamma as samsara. > This, however, doesn't make much sense to me. What does it mean > when you say `our very existence is simply kamma' or the other > statements? Kamma is very specific, as I understand, and refers > to the cetana (intention) cetasika (mental factor). As I briefly > suggested yesterday, there are two kinds of kamma condition: 1) > conascent kamma-condition which as Htoo pointed out arises with > every citta, directing the other mental factors; 2) asynchronous > kamma which is wholesome or unwholesome and produces results of > deeds. I quote from Conditions Chapter 11 by Nina, -------------------------------------- As regards conascent kamma-condition, sahajåta kamma-paccaya, the cetanås accompanying all 89 types of citta are conascent kamma- condition for the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany as well as for the rúpas produced by them. ... It (cetana) conditions the result in the form of vipåkacitta and specific rúpas of the body by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. When one, for example, slanders, there is akusala kamma through speech and this can produce akusala vipåka later on. The akusala cetanå or kamma conditions the vipåkacitta which arises later on by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. At the same time, the akusala cetanå is related to the citta and cetasikas it accompanies and to speech intimation (vacíviññatti), a rúpa produced by citta, by way of conascent kamma-condition. THUS, CETANA IS IN DIFFERENT WAYS A CONDITION FOR OTHER PHENOMENA. -------------------------------------- In short, "Sarah", "Swee Boon" and "Nina" are no different from cetana (kamma). Just this is existence. There is no self to be found. Regards, NEO Swee Boon PS: I just failed my driving practical test at 5 pm and I feel miserable. Why do I feel anxiety? Does an arahant have any anxiety? Can an arahant fail his driving practical test? 19604 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Manual of Abh., new book. Nina --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear friends, > I just received from PTS a new book: Summary of the Topics of > Abhidhamma and > its co: Abhidhammatthavibhavini, in English. R. Gethin the > translator quotes > the original preface by Wijeratne who started this work, but who > died before > he could finish: ... > My > thanks are also due to Jonathan Abbot for having sent me the Thai > edition of > the atthayojana to the tika...> > Several of you will rejoice, I know. > Jon, what is the atthayojana? > Nina. I haven't a clue, I'm afraid! This is going back some 20 to 25 years now. I vaguely remember sending something over to Dr Wijeratne, but have no idea what it was. Perhaps it will be mentioned in the text. I do however, have clear memories of the good doctor himself. A very unassuming but warm person, bright-eyed, articulate and obviously very interested in and knowledgable about the teachings. I got to know him during one of my visits to Colombo from Bangkok, probably at the time that Ven Dhammadharo was staying in Sri Lanka. I would meet Dr Wijeratne each day at the temple/centre (I can't quite remember which) where we were both visiting. He was very friendly to me, invited me to his home for dinner, and we kept up correspondence for some time after I returned to Bangkok. I did not get a chance to visit Sri Lanka again until many, many years later, when Sarah and I spent a couple of days there on the way to or from India. I was looking forward very much to seeing him again. Unfortunately, when I phoned his home, I learnt that he had passed away some years before. He has obviously put his Pali skills to good use, and leaves this book as his legacy. I'm looking forward very much to receiving my copy. Thanks very much for bringing this to my notice. Jon 19605 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - <> Yes, as my post must have brought a smile to yours, Howard. I'm sure you had been wondering just when I would come in on this point ;-)). << ... I completely disagree.>> Disagreement is the norm between us, Howard ;-)), so nothing unexpected there (although this may well be the first time you've said you 'completely' disagree!) . In the comments that follow I am, as usual, simply putting forward my understanding of what the teachings have to say, rather than getting into a discussion on individually held views. In particular, I'm not saying your view of things is wrong (I have no way of knowing for sure where the truth lies -- but hope to find out some day ;-)). <> I am reminded of the passage you often refer to, of the 2 sheaves of wheat supporting each other (as a simile for the interdependence of nama and rupa, if I remember correctly). Perhaps you would also say that for the duration of their interdependence (but not otherwise) the 2 sheaves were not separate and discrete entities? If so, then our differences may be more semantic than real. <> From an Abhidhamma point of view (as best I understand it): - It would be in accordance with the Abhidhamma to say that there is no seeing consciousness without visible object (indeed, this is so by definition): - A moment of seeing consciousness and its visible object, however, are not wholly coterminous, in that the latter 'exists' (stays/lasts) for a period many times longer than the former. This means that the same momentary visible object is the object of many separate moments of seeing consciousness. - In any 'act' of experiencing a rupa through a sense-door, the rupa must have arisen already for it to be the object of the experiencing consciousness. In other words, in any 'act of seeing', the visible object must always have arisen before the seeing consciousness that experiences it (never does the seeing consciousness arise first, nor do actual moment of arising of the 2 occur at exactly the same moment). - While visible object is dependent on seeing consciousness for its *being experienced*, it is not dependent on seeing consciousness for its *arising*. Thus the proposition 'no visible object without the seeing consciousness' would not be supported by the Abhidhamma, to my understanding. <> I think this is the same point as discussed above. Having arisen, there is a brief moment of staying/maintaining before falling away, but this does not happen 'in tandem'. <> The commentarial explanation of 'empty' as used in the suttas is 'empty of self', in other words, anatta (i.e., not empty of individual essence). Thanks for sharing your views, Howard. Jon 19606 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Nina --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon and Mike, ... > Jon: If I remember > > correctly, this class of attachment is referred to somewhere in > the > > teachings as attachment that is 'to be followed' (perhaps someone > > will remember the source, it has been quoted on-list before). > Put > > another way, this akusala volition simply does not involve the > degree > > of danger that other akusala volition does. > N: There are the terms sama-lobha, sama meaning *even*: lobha that > is no > very harmful, and visama-lobha, lobha that really harms. In The > Guide, > Netti, there are the terms: that is to be followed, and Rob quoted > this > before. We studied this with Jim. It is a difficult text, though. > Lobha for > attainment that is to be followed, or, that can be followed. This > is what we > saw in the commentary to the text about jhanas recently quoted by > Frank, > chanda raga for arahatship. > Nina Thanks very much for this info. I had a quick look in The Guide, but couldn't find the reference. I will keep my eyes open for it. Apart from lobha for attainment, though, I have a clear recollection of the lobha that accompanies our normal everyday activities as being given a separate description or category of some kind, but can't now remember the context. Jon 19607 From: nidive Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:44am Subject: Re: Calm and Insight. Henepola. Dear Nina, > I learnt recently in Bgk: 4 is sukkha vipassana, > it concerns mundane development. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html (4) "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Nina, I interpret the fourth case as a practitioner who abandons the defilements by forceful restraint (well under control). The concentration/tranquility of the practitioner arises through the forceful restraint of the defilements. This is said in Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-100-1.html "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. "And then whichever of the higher knowledges (abhinna powers and ending of mental effluents) he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening. This fourth type of practitioner is very special. The practitioner does not practice jhanic access or jhanic absorption concentration. Yet the practitioner can still attain abhinna powers and the ending of the mental effluents. /* Does this imply that jhanas are not necessary to attain mundane abhinna powers? I have suspected that this could be the case (as attested to by my own psychic experiences but this is another totally different topic). */ In short, Nina, I don't think the fourth type of arahant is the arahant released by insight alone. This type of arahant practises both insight and forceful restraint of the defilements. For there can be no restraint of the defilements without insight. I still think that the second type of arahant (develops tranquility preceded by insight) is the arahant released by insight alone. Please refer to Page 168-169 (Chapter 7 - The Two Vehicles) of Ven. Henepola's work. Please also explain what you learnt recently in Bangkok as to why this fourth type of arahant is the arahant released by insight alone. > And: in the Patisambiddha the chapter on yuganaddha: here it > concerns lokuttara maggacitta. Nina, what is the Patisambiddha? I have not come across this thing. > Then samatha and vipassana are a pair and none exceeds the other. > Nibbana is the object. Which means that when magga-citta arises, supramundane samatha (tranquility) and supramundane vipassana (insight) are definitely present. This then is inline with Kimsuka Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html "I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message is this: The fortress stands for this body -- composed of four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). The commander of the fortress stands for consciousness. The central square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19608 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussion on Satipatthana at the Foundation week 5 no 1 Hi Jaran, I enjoyed this very much, I can never hear enough. Listening and considering condition the arising of sati that can be directly aware of characteristics. Anumodana, Nina op 12-02-2003 09:57 schreef jaranoh op jjn@b...: > > There are many levels of understanding. When listening to > dhamma, we understand that there is dhamma: citta, cetasika > and rupa having their characteristics to be studied. > However, this is understanding of listening level; we don't > know their characteristics despite the presence of dhamma > now. 19609 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation and Abhidhamma Hi Larry, I do not get your point, sorry. Do you think of the rupa which is the means for conveying a meaning? It is just rupa and it is gone immediately. It is different from nama which experiences. It is very subtle and we should not try to catch it. We learn that there are so many condiitons for speaking and bodily expression, and thus this can help us to cling less to person. While we are speaking or making gestures there are coarse rupas that can be known: hardness, motion, etc. When we speak we move the lips, but without naming realities, there can be awareness of them. They are different from nama, they are not an experience. Nina. op 12-02-2003 00:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > Are you saying that rupa is meaningful? If so, that would seem to > contradict the difference between nama and rupa. 19610 From: Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, Sarah (and Kom) - Just a couple comments in context below. In a message dated 2/13/03 3:40:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Kom &Howard, > > Kom wrote: "The V. Mahamogallana at the end of his life was beaten to > death by the robbers. He is said to escape the robbers for 7 different > times (with his supernormal power). In the end, it is said he knew that > he could not escape the results of his kamma." > ..... > Thanks for this example, Kom, and the extra details. I just checked the > details of Mahamogallana’s death. I think it appears in other places with > slightly different details, such as in the Anguttara Nikaya commentary, > but I have it in the Dhammapada commentary (bk10, story 7, Burlingame > transl). > > We read that after his vicious attack ("they tore him limb from limb, and > pounded his bones until they were as small as grains of rice.....", tossed > his bones in the bushes and left him for dead), he still went to pay final > respects to the Buddha. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: My, quite an accomplishment I'd say! Torn from limb to limb with bones pounded down until as small as grains of sand - and then this pile of flesh and sand manages to go pay respects! Not quite believable, is it? ;-) Of course, Maha Moggalana was a master of psychic abilities - so perhaps he did a quick reassembly job! ---------------------------------------------- > > Later, "the monks began a discussion in the Hall of Truth: 'Elder > Mogallana the Great met death which he did not deserve." .At > that moment the Teacher approached and asked them, "Monk, what are you > saying as you sit here all gathered together?" When they told him, he > said, "Monks, if you regard only this present state of existence, > Moggallana the Great did indeed meet death which he did not deserve. But > as a matter of fact, the manner of death he met was in exact conformity > with the deed he committed in a previous state of existence.' " > > The Buddha then tells the story of the past about how in a previous life > he had killed his parents. We read the Buddha says in conclusion: "Monks, > by reason of the fact that Moggallana commited so monstrous a sin, he > suffered torment for numberless hundreds of thousands of years in Hell; > and thereafter, because the fruit of his evil deed was not yet exhausted, > in a hundred successive existences he was beaten and pounded to pieces in > like manner and so met death. Therefore the manner of death which > Moggallana suffered was in exact conformity with his own misdeed in a > previous state of existence. Likewise the five hundrd heretics who with > the five hundred thieves offended against my son who had > committed no offense against them, suffered precisely the form of death > which they deserved. For he that offends against the offenseless, incurs > misfortune and loss through ten circumstances." > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: This certainly does sound like kamma vipaka in this case! ----------------------------------------------------- > > He then spoke these Dhammapada verses 137 - 140: > "Whosoever visits punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, > Whosoever offends against those that are without offense, > Such an one will right quickly come to one of ten states: > > He will incur cruel suffering, or infirmity or injury of the body, > Or severe sickness, or loss of mind, > > Or misfortune proceeding from the king, or a heavy accusation, > Or death of relatives, or loss of treasures, > > Or else the fire of lightning will consume his houses; > upon dissolution of the body such a simpleton will go to Hell." > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, but look at what the foregoing says! It says "Whosoever visits punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, Whosoever offends against those that are without offense, Such an one will right quickly come to one of ten states ..." (It refers, of course, to the Venerable having received kammic retribution for his past misdeeds.) Note that this quoted material says that those who "deserve not punishment" (the venerable's parents in the earlier life in this case) can yet receive punishment, that "those that are without offense" can be offended against!! Bad actions can be initiated against innocent people!! Not all that comes to one is (primarily) one's own kamma vipaka! (Yet I have every confidence that some will contort the meaning to reach the opposite conclusion. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------- > ***** > Just as when I read the stories of the Petas (hungry ghosts), I’m filled > with horror everytime I read this story in full, especially on account of > the horror of the results from unwholesome deeds, however horrific they > are. Perhaps we can all agree that continuing to perform unwholesome acts > of any kind and not seeing the danger in them is the real definintion of > ‘having no wit’. > > As Kom further wrote: > > "Regarding blaming the receiver or the doer, how could we blame anybody > except the kamma (volition)? With the bad kamma, bad results are (almost) > certain to arise. This is why we shouldn't only be shameful of akusala > states, we should also fear what they bring. But as long as the kandhas > continue to exist, there are conditions for the undesirable vipaka to > arise. The Buddha, the supreme accumulator of all wholesome states, > received the results of bad kamma even after he has become enlightened: > nobody escapes the results of kamma. > > Our akusala states are predominantly conditioned by our own accumulations > and latent kilesa. The arahant has no such states because he has already > eradicated the latent kilesa. The akusala states are not directly > conditioned by the past kamma: this is true within ourselves as in > others." > > Metta and thanks to you both for these reflections. > > Sarah > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19611 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:25am Subject: Re: (3)Rupa As A Ladder Dear NEO Swee Boon, Thanks for your interest in rupa-dhammas. Aniccata is one of four Lakkhana-rupas.Lakkhana is just a characteristic.So,in real sense it is not a real rupa.It is not influenced by Kamma,Citta,Utu and Ahara because it is just a characteristic. All in all,the very basis,as you know is four Mahabutarupas.All other rupas have to depend on these four. Each rupa has a lifespan of 17 times the Citta.As Aniccata is not a salakkhanarupa it does not have a lifespan as long as salakkhanarupas does. It is a rupa of a rupa.I say like this because it is the lakkhanarupa of a salakkhanarupas.When a salakkhanarupa ends its lifespan that is when it is in the last moment of 51 moment(17 >< 3 = 51 ,3 = 1.Upada 2.htiti 3.Bhanga),just before it disappearance may be called Aniccata. You may have a good view on this than me.If you can find more detail let me know. With best regards, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > > 28.Aniccatarupa(Disappearance of rupa) > > Can you explain more on this? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19612 From: Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, Sarah (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 2/13/03 4:39:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Swee Boon, > > --- "nidive " wrote: >Hi Sarah (& > Howard), > > > >I have read this "Did they deserve it?" thread. > > >It is to my understanding that the Buddha never taught that Person > >B's unarisen vipaka is the cause of Person A's new kamma. > > > >Person A's new kamma is caused by his/her own attachment, aversion > >and ignorance. > > > >Person A's new kamma merely provided the necessary > >ingredient/condition for Person B's unarisen vipaka to arise. > ..... > That sounds correct. > ..... > >I don't see any connection between Person B's unarisen vipaka being > >the cause of the decision by Person A to carry out the attack. > ..... > I’m not at all sure Howard was saying that, but I’d rather leave the two > of you to discuss that;-) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, my position was the diametrical opposite! --------------------------------------------------- > ..... > >Therefore, in the case of the victims of 911 in that article, the > >carrying out of the attack on the Twin Towers by the terrorists > >merely provided the necessary ingredient/condition for the unarisen > >vipaka (think of destructive kamma) of the victims to arise. > ..... > Yes. > ..... > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The connection then is adventitious, purely fortuitous! Obviously, if one waits long enough, for enough lifetimes, one will surely have "bad things" happen to them, and "good things" as well. That is certainly not the mechanism for kammic niyama. I find this line of reasoning quite unconvincing. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19613 From: Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation and Abhidhamma Hi Nina, To me, "intimation" means "speech". So are you saying speech is rupa? Speech seems to have its own category in the "body, speech and mind" grouping. I assumed that speech = concept, but maybe there is more to it than that. Let's let it be for awhile. Maybe clarity will dawn sometime later. Larry 19614 From: Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Way 50, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1 Clear Comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 62 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Clear comprehension of suitability is the comprehension of the suitable after considering what is suitable and not. For instance, the visiting of a relic shrine could be quite (worthily) purposeful. But when a great offering is made to a relic shrine, a multitude of people in a ten or twelve yojana area gather, and men and women according to their position go about adorned like painted figures. And if in that crowd greed could arise for the bhikkhu in an attractive object, resentment in a non-attractive one, and delusion through prejudice; if he could commit the offence of sexual intercourse; or if harm could come to the holy life of purity; then, a place like that relic shrine would not be suitable. When there could be no such harm it would be suitable. [Tika] "Prejudice" [asamapekkhana] is the name given to the grasping of an object without wise reflection by way of worldly ignorant complacency [gehasita aññanupekkha vasena arammanassa ayoniso gahanam]. [T] "Commit the offence of sexual intercourse" by way of bodily contact with a woman. [T] "Harm come to life" through trampling down by an elephant and so forth. [T] "(Harm come to) purity" through seeing those of the opposite sex and so forth. The visiting of the Sangha is a purpose of worth. Still when there is all-night preaching in a big pandal in the inner village and there are crowds and one could possibly come to hurt and harm in the way mentioned earlier, that place of preaching is not suitable to go to. When there is no hurt or harm possible one may go there as it would then be suitable. In visiting elders who are surrounded by a large following suitability and non-suitability should also be determined in the way stated above. To visit a place where the dead are cast for beholding a corpse is fit, and to explain the meaning of this the following story has been told: It is said that a young bhikkhu went with a novice to get wood for tooth-cleaners. The novice getting out of the road proceeded in front to a place in search of wood and saw a corpse. Meditating on it he produced the first absorption, and making the factors of the absorption a basis for developing insight realized the first three fruitions of arahantship, while examining the conformations [sankhare sammasanto], and stood having laid hold of the subject of meditation for realizing the path of full arahantship. The young bhikkhu not seeing the novice called out to him. The novice thought thus: From the day I took up the homeless life I have endeavored to let me never be called twice by a bhikkhu, so, I will produce the further distinction (of full arahantship) another day, and replied to the bhikkhu with the words: "What's the matter, reverend sir?" "Come," said the bhikkhu and the novice returned. The novice told the bhikkhu as follows: "Go first by this way: then stand facing north, at the place I stood, for a while and look." The young bhikkhu followed the novice's instruction and attained just the distinction reached by the novice. Thus the same corpse became profitable to two people. For the male the female corpse is not suitable, and vice versa. Only a corpse of one's own sex is suitable. Comprehension of what is suitable in this way is called the clear comprehension of suitability. Further, the going on the alms round of that one who has thus comprehended purpose and suitability after leaving and taking up just that resort -- among the thirty-eight subjects of meditation -- called the subject of meditation after his own heart is clear comprehension of resort. [T] "Subject of meditation" [kammatthana] refers to the object of concentration by way of locality of occurrence of the contemplative action that is being stated. [T] "Resort" [gocara]. Literally, pasturing ground. This word is applied to the wandering for alms of a bhikkhu and to the subject of meditation in the sense of the locus [sphere, range or scope) of contemplative action. 19615 From: Diny@ Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:38pm Subject: To Smallchap and Sarah about vipassana practice Hi Smallchap. I asked experience of Vipassana to share so that it can help us ( like me ) to get charge. If you are practising for 18 yrs great , definately life goes on usually for all , but after Vipassana did it help you in doing Good Job, thinking attitude or is it same as it was before 18 yrs ?? About Transform i mean that did you help others too ??? metta - Dinesh --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Smallchap, > > Good to see you posting after a looong break;-);-)So glad you're still > around. > > --- "smallchap " wrote: > > > > I have been practising anapana/vipassana for about 18 years. It has > > not transformed my life. Life goes on as usual for me. I have not > > transformed others' lives too through vipassana. Lives go on as > > usual for them too. > > > > :) > ..... > I smiled a lot when I read these comments.....yes, life has to go on as > usual for all of us. Looking for some kind of transformation can be a > mistake I think and is usually just an indication of more lobha and desire > for some special results. > > > > > smallchap > > p.s. I consider life transform to be from a puthujjana to an ariya. > ..... > Good answer! > > I'm waiting for Dinesh's response..... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 19616 From: Frank Kuan Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:58pm Subject: abandoning company Re: [Pali] Re: Migajala Sutta These are my notes from sutta [A3.16], and also occurs frequently throughout the whole cannon. ========================================== a cultivator is endowed with these 3 qualities develops the basis for the ending of the effluents. 1) guarding the sense doors (1 out of 4 factors of "right effort") 2) knows moderation in eating 3) devotion to wakefulness 1. guarding the sense doors (see right effort for details) when sense objects come into contact with 6 sense organs, "does not grasp at signs and features by which if he were to dwell without restraint over the sense organ, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him." 2. knows moderation in eating eat not playfully eat not for intoxication eat not for putting on bulk eat not for beautification eat for survival and continuance of this body eat to sustain body for spiritual practice thinking "I will destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from overeating]. Thus I will maintain myself, be blameless, and live in comfort." 3. devotion to wakefulness during the day - sitting and walking meditation, purify mind first watch of night [dusk to 10pm] - sitting and walking meditation, purify mind second watch of night [10pm-2am] - sleep in lion posture, lying on right side, one foot on another, right hand under right cheek. Mind is mindful, alert, with mind set on getting up [either as soon as one awakens or at a particular time]. This posture is conducive to staying conscious in a low power mode, rather than completely falling into unconsciousness. Last watch of the night [2am-dawn] - sitting and walking meditation, purify mind. =========================================== If you look at the allocation of the 24 hours in the day, 4 hours are spent sleeping, the rest of the day is split between alternating walking and sitting meditation. Even if one practices like this in the company of other cultivators, they are still in virtual solitude. These instructions are directed to monks, but I see no reason why lay people can not adopt as much of it to their ability in their daily life. If you have a professional lifestyle that expends lots of energy, you might need 6 or 7 hours of sleep. A professional may only have 2-4 hours per day on weekdays to alternate between sitting and walking meditation. But there are 2 weekend days to completely devote to serious practice. There is no time to waste in overindulging in company of even good dhamma friends, not to speak of less worthy people. I see no way to carry out the Buddha's instructions without "abandoning company", with the exception of the occasional* dhamma conversations with dhamma friends. -fk * occasional meaning only the amount necessary to establish mundane right view to carry out the training 19617 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hello Eddie, You wrote: ------ > Ken, >You described it really good, that is what exactly I have read in one of the books. > ----- Thanks Eddie, I don't recall many of the details I have read about samsara but I know it's not a nice place to be. You mentioned in passing, that the Buddha always helped those people at the extremes -- the worst and the best -- and not in between. If I understand you correctly, you are are referring to the men and women who attained enlightenment soon after hearing the Dhamma. But really, all of them had 'only a little dust in their eyes.' Even though some of them had evil traits, they all had enormous accumulations of panna . Even the serial killer, Anguilimala, had lived the good life in many previous existences. I think I may have seen that sutta you referred to -- the one about a man who was ready to join the sangha except he couldn't resist the beautiful woman to whom he was engaged. (Kom has given us a link, I will look it up as soon as I go on line.) As I remember it, he joined the sangha with the idea that it would give him access to fabulously beautiful women living in the deva realms. Later, he realised that the other monks found it highly amusing that he had actually become a monk to meet girls, and he lost his craving. After reading all the helpful messages on this thread, I see the warnings against women (or the opposite sex, as the case may be), purely as warnings against attachment to samsara. The Buddha said (somewhere), that there is nothing more attractive to a man than a woman and nothing more attractive to a woman than a man. So, women (and men) are the most obvious examples to give in warning against attachment. Kind regards Ken H 19619 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN IV, 170/Both-ways-liberated (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Swee Boon --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thank you for your kind reply. > > I realized that the phrase "awareness-release" refers to the > attainment of the jhanas. So the Suttas such as: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html > > are talking about the arahant with both awareness-release and > discernment-release. They are meant for practitioners of the first > type (released both ways), as in: > > > "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by > > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, > the > > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As > he > > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are > > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html I don't think 'insight preceded by tranquility' in this sutta is the same as liberation-both-ways. What is said here is that the monk has attained jhana at some time before he attains enlightenment. But this does not mean he is both-ways-liberated, since it does not necessarily follow that (a) his enlightenment was based on his jhana attainment (but merely that his jhana attainment preceded his enlightenment in point of time) or, (b) if his enlightenment was based on his jhana attainment, that it was a case of the monk being 'both-ways-liberated'. This is a fairly technical area, which I have never really gone into in detail. From what I understand, though (and which I think Nina has mentioned already), it requires not only attainment of the jhanas but a high degree of mastery of the jhanas to be capable of becoming 'liberated both ways'. I think this might be enough for 1 post. Like Nina, I prefer to take this difficult subject in small bites (my poor brain is not capable of dealing with so many threads at once, I'm afraid!). Just on a side point, I'm puzzled by your use of 'awareness-release', especially in contradistinction to 'discernment-release'. I don't think either of these expressions has been mentioned so far in our discussion, and I've not come across them before. Would you mind elaborating. Thanks. Enjoying your posts on this area. Jon 19620 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:36am Subject: A great non-golden lotus-flower for you..... Hi Christine, I have some good news......I came across the story we were looking for in this discussion: > --- "christine_forsyth " > wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > I was browsing the Useful Posts and came across one (16672) where you > > asked for a reference to the Buddha giving a monk a golden lotus. Not > > sure if anyone sent you this previously... > > It is mentioned at the link below - Fundamentals of Vipassana > > Meditation by Mahasi Sayadaw. Click on "The dull young monk" > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/fundamentals/fundamentals.htm > ..... > Exactly what I was looking for. The point of the story was that in this > case, even Sariputta did not know what the suitable meditation object (of > samatha) was. Only the Buddha knew....as it mentions, it turns out the > monk had been a goldsmith for 500 existences and so was fascinated by the > golden lotus. When the Buddha made it fade away, he realized the > tri-lakkhana after developing jhana. > > The question at the time of the discussion was whether teachers really > know what is suitable for students in this regard. ..... We can read the full story in the Jataka commentary, Bk1, No 25, Tittha-Jataka. I came across it yesterday when I was looking for the story about MahaMoggalana which I thought was here. (What’s also interesting is that the Jataka is marked up with my writing from a long time ago but yet I don’t recall having read it here before, which reminds me that all memory of the stories will be lost, only any real understanding will be accumulated from life to life;-)) A few quotes for those who don’t have the text: “Now, it is only a Buddha who has knowledge of the hearts and can read the thoughts of men; and therefore through lack of this power, the Captain of the Faith(i.e. Sariputta) had so little knowledge of the heart and thoughts of his co-resident, as to prescribe impurity as the theme for meditation. this was no good to that Brother. The reason why it was no good to him was that, according to tradition, he had invariably been born, throughout five hundred successive births, as a goldsmith; and consequently, the cumulative effect of seeing absolutely pure gold for so long a time had made the theme of impurity useless. He spent four months without being able to get so much as the first inkling of the idea.” The Buddha instead asked him to gaze at a great lotus flower in a pond. The Buddha made it decay and the bhikkhu understood impermanence of all conditioned phenomena and “won insight” (became a sotapanna?). The Buddha then uttered this verse and as he finished it, the bhikkhu became an arahant: “Pluck out self-love, as with the hand you pluck the autumn water-lily. Set your heart On naught but this, the perfect Path of Peace, And that Extinction which the Buddha taught.” ============================================= "Pluck out self-love..." hmmm.... (Note it is not a golden lotus as discussed above. The gold references are only to the bhikkhu in this life and previous lives being a goldsmith and having looked at gold for so long.) Metta, Sarah ====== 19621 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight. Henepola. Hi Swee Boon, --- "nidive " wrote: > Dear Nina, > > > I learnt recently in Bgk: 4 is sukkha vipassana, > > it concerns mundane development. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html You may like to check out this post of Nina's about the same sutta (and possibly others in its thread which may be relevant). I know Nina will be quite happy if you requote anything of relevance. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14225 Metta, Sarah ===== 19622 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Jon (& Nina), wrote: > Thanks very much for this info. I had a quick look in The Guide, but > couldn't find the reference. I will keep my eyes open for it. > > Apart from lobha for attainment, though, I have a clear recollection > of the lobha that accompanies our normal everyday activities as being > given a separate description or category of some kind, but can't now > remember the context. ..... You may like to check these links: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14554 (contains comments by Nina on the AN Bk of 10s sutta about chandha) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m1292.html (contains the Netthi quote) It's getting late (for me) and I'm busy at the weekend, but Mike may know just what to put in the escribe search to find links to other old relevant threads, especially to your second point. Metta, Sarah ======= 19623 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (3)Rupa As A Ladder Hi Htoo and Swee Boon, --- "htootintnaing " wrote: > Dear NEO Swee Boon, > > Thanks for your interest in rupa-dhammas. > > Aniccata is one of four Lakkhana-rupas.Lakkhana is just a > characteristic.So,in real sense it is not a real rupa.It is not > influenced by Kamma,Citta,Utu and Ahara because it is just a > characteristic. ..... > You may have a good view on this than me.If you can find more detail > let me know. ..... There is more detail in the Atthasalini and in the Visudhimagga, ch X1V Nina gives a useful summary and many quotes in her book "Rupas"ch 8, which is on line. Perhaps Swee Boon, you could kindly copy a few relevant Atth. and Vism quotes from here for others to see. Sorry, too rushed to find the link. Chris will have it at her fingertips as well, I'm sure;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 19624 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cula Satapanna (was: Vipassana practice and life Transformed) Hi Smallchap I have the book by Ledi Sayadaw. He says that the person who realized the dependent origination is a culasotapanna, thus, the second stage of vipassana ~naa.na. which is still tender insight, taruna vipassana. The Visuddhimagga also mentions this,Vis. XIX, 27. Kom is completely right. How to do that? Well, there is no other way but beginning now to be aware of the objects appearing through the six doors. But no you who is trying, it is of no use to want or wish something. Then there is still the idea of doing something for one's own sake. That obstructs the development of panna. Nina. op 13-02-2003 04:48 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: > I read about Cula Sotapana will not be reborn in the four lower > realms. I welcome comments from you and list members on who is a cula > sotapanna. > 19625 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, processes of citta Dear all, another example that the Abhidhamma is not a later invention. I checked those process cittas in the Patthana translation, as I mentioned before. The more one reflects, the clearer it becomes that no ordinary person, even no psychoanalyst, could invent all this. Only a Sammasambuddha. But let us study the Abhidhamma first. Then we can find out for ourselves. Nina op 13-02-2003 08:46 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > > U Narada says "The mental processes were not made up by the > commentators. They took them from proximity condition of the Patthana > expounded by the Buddha. These mental processes are dealt with in the > proximity condition of this Guide." > 19626 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight. Henepola. Dear Swee Boon, Sorry to hear about the failed driving test, but there will be other chances. Another more important test: real life is a test for panna, but how often do we fail. For answers see below. op 13-02-2003 14:44 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > > I interpret the fourth case as a practitioner who abandons the > defilements by forceful restraint (well under control). The > concentration/tranquility of the practitioner arises through the > forceful restraint of the defilements. > Nina: well under control is different from forceful restraint. I would like caution in using such words. A certain translation may lead one into thinking in such way. It is good to compare different translations, and Pali is best. The all has to be known, also akusala. See Satipatthana sutta under cittanupassana: citta with raga, with dosa, anything that arises because of conditions. How otherwise could we understand that akusala is only a nama arising because of conditions. Also the moment one wants to suppress has to be known: there may be dosa, or conceit, clinging to the importance of self. It helps so much that each moment is conditioned, no frustrations about it. You mentioned before the triple gateway: just before enlightenment the conditioned dhamma that appears is known as impermanent, dukkha or anatta. Only one of these three can be known at a time. That is then the gateway to enlightenment. The object is any reality that appears, it can be lobha. Even just after lobha enlightenment can occur. This can remind us not to ignore akusala as object of understanding; any object is worthy of sati and panna. If we keep on suppressing, no chance to understand. That is to me the marvel of the teachings. See the Sangarava sutta (Gradual Sayings, Book of threes, quoted in ADL, Ch 22.) Jhana has to be cultivated for the abhinna powers. Because of former accumulations there may be special experiences. In order to find out whether these accompany kusala citta or akusala citta, panna and sati are necessary. Again the beauty of the teachings: nobody else can tell us, only panna. As A. Sujin said: panna has to go through everything. This can cause us to have great confidence in the teachings. We may have seemingly kusala motives for helping others, but see, how many moments of clinging to the importance of self, in action and speech. As A. Sujin said (just heard on tape): When there is "him" in the thinking we are still thinking of ourselves. It is very difficult to get rid of belonging. There is more metta when there is no particular person at all." Another reminder of her: "When we learn by words there is doubt, but when there is awareness we learn to understand realities." And read the Vinaya: what seems kusala is akusala: the monk who meditates, sitting in public with his eyes closed, but he may have selfish motives. Very subtle akusala is shown in the Tipitaka. I think of the Mirror of Dhamma, Sarah mentioned. Next week I continue, the weekend is too busy for me. Henepola: I only have the wheel 351, 353, and this does not have Ch 7. I saw the passage on khanika samadhi, later on more. I am glad about your additional text of the sutta and study the co now, very interesting. The Patisambhidamagga is translated as the Path of Discrimination. It is composed by Sariputta, it belongs to the Khuddaka Nikaya and is thus part of the Canon. I also have the Co in Thai. Numa did a series on it based on discussions in Bgk (hint: I hope more is coming). Best wishes, Nina. 19627 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:06am Subject: samalobha, visamalobha Dear Jonothan, what a delightful story about Wijeratne, such kindness and hospitality, just as we experienced when in Sri Lanka. The passage in Guide: p. 121. Though conceit and craving are akusala, their object may be wholesome. A difficult subject I find. Nina 19628 From: connie Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:53pm Subject: re: another lurker Hi, Sarah and All, Just coming up for more air and thought I should answer you before it gets any later. The archives are pretty deep in a lot of places and with all the streams running into it I don't know when I'll catch up. Have been thinking I haven't been a very strong swimmer and have just floated along with any interpretation that makes the best sense to me at the time. Got pretty well caught up in the futility undercurrent for awhile. ..... Perhaps you'll also encourage Betty to write more, though I know she's always got many projects. I don't know if that is Washington DC where a couple of others live. Sounds like the Christian preachers are v.helpful. ..... I really don't know Betty but agree that it would be nice to hear more from her here. She just suggested that I join this list when I'd written her about the advanced section of the dhammastudy website. This is the other Washington, on the Pacific coast side. Omak's in the north central part of the state, about 100 miles south of Canada. ..... p.s let us know how the "rotting corpse" meditation sessions go;-) ====== I didn't see Mary this week, so don't know what the plant's doing now. She was thinking about taking it in to work because they have a room there they don't use a whole lot and then taking it back home when it's through blooming. We meet in a room the people who run the Omak Therapy Building let us use. peace, connie 19629 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:45pm Subject: I'm back Dear James, Sorry I did not write to you for so long, even though I made a plan for this letter before the holiday, as I had a holiday and I went to Phuket in Thailand. When I came back, I wanted to type a letter but the computer did not work so....... By the way, I have a few questions: -Where is the Zen Meditation temple or calm village? -Why do you like meditating?(I think it is quite boring, I cannot think quietly or maybe I do not have patience to do it.) -Is the eight foot path important to Buddhists? Please send me more poems as I really enjoy as they are funny! Metta, Janice Chung 19630 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:47pm Subject: /Nice to write to you again Dear Kom, It's Janice! Sorry I did not write to you for so long as I had a holiday! Do you mind to explain a little more about mindfulness? Is it related to the buddha? Thank You! Metta, Janice 19631 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:49pm Subject: Hello Hi James, I'm Hilary and I'm 11.I've read the letters you've written. You seem like some type of Buddhism and a great poet. Can you please answer a couple of questions on my mind about Buddhism? O.K, first of all what do buddhists do when they go to temples? I know they pray but do they do anything like dance,readings, songs, or things like that? My next question will probably occur to next year's Chinese New Year.Do buddhist do anything special during Chinese New Year. I would love to hear some more things about Buddhism in the letters you write. From, Hilary P.S - please send me some poems too. ______________________________________________________ 19632 From: smallchap Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cula Sotapanna (was: Vipassana practice and life Transformed) Hi Kom and Nina, Thanks for the coments and the references. Nina, when you said second stage of vipassana ~naa.na, I believe you mean it to be udayabbaya-nana? It is interesting. I have found a comment in the book "The Essence of Budhha Abhidhamma" by Dr Mehm Tin Mon. His understanding of a cula- sotapanna is somewhat different. In Chapter IV under the section Cula-Sotapanna, De Mehm Tin Mon defined a cula-sotapanna as "a yogi who has attained Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana and Paccaya- pariggaha-nana, has temporaily eliminated ditthi and vicikiccha as described above [smallchap: in the previous section, the author talked about how to purify doubts]. So he resembles a sotapanna but he is not a sotapanna yet. He is called a cula-sotapaana meaning a junior-sotapanna. He will not be reborn in the apaya abodes in his subsequent life." The author continued: "The two knowledges, i.e. Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana and Paccya- pariggaha-nana, are very important. They are the basic knowledges in insight-meditations and they constitute the foundations for the arising of ten vipassana-nanas in later stages. They are not included in the vapassana-nanas because they do not concentrate on the three characteristic marks (Tilakkhana) of existence. Nevertheless they reveal the insight nature of the ultimate realities concerning nama and rupa." "They are important because they eliminate [smallchap: I believe the author meant temprary eliminate] the wrong or evil views (miccha- ditthi) and strengthens the right view (samma-ditthi)" So it seems to me that if one takes to vipassana meditation diligently, straigth away one is a cula-sotapanna? You are right in saying that there is no use to want or wish for something. One will get no where by mere wishing and wanting. On the other hand, however, for one who is ready to enter the magga and the phala, perhaps a (strong) desire to escape from samsara is necessary? (The Elder Sangharakkhita, Visuddhi Magga Chapter I, 135) smallchap 19633 From: James Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 0:10am Subject: Re: I'm back --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > Sorry I did not write to you for so long, > even though I made a plan for this letter before the > holiday, as I had a holiday and I went to Phuket in > Thailand. When I came back, I wanted to type a letter > but the computer did not work so....... (James: That is okay. I have been rather busy myself. I have never been to Phuket even though I have been to Thailand twice. Maybe I will go there one day. I am told it has beautiful beaches. BTW, I am going to be moving to Cairo, Egypt this summer to teach for two years. While there, I will travel to many other countries. I see that you like to travel also. Maybe I will meet you sometime in some completely foreign country! ;-) > > By the way, I have a few questions: > -Where is the Zen Meditation temple or calm village? (James: It is on 7th Ave and Baseline in Phoenix, Arizona, USA) > -Why do you like meditating?(I think it is quite > boring, I cannot think quietly or maybe I do not have > patience to do it.) (James: I wouldn't say that I `like' to meditate. I think it would be kinda weird for anyone to `like' to meditate. You see, meditation is work and no one really likes to do work…including me. Let me tell you a funny story to explain. When I was a kid, I hated to take a bath. My mother would have to fight me practically every day to take a bath. This exasperated her because I am a very stubborn type of person…even in the face of threats, punishments, or bribery. And I did not want to take a bath!! It was work and I didn't want to do any work! Geez, especially everyday!! So my dad got an idea, which bombed horribly. He told my mom to just let me go without a bath until I got so dirty I couldn't stand myself anymore; then I would come begging for a bath. LOL!…fathers can be so naïve sometimes. Well, my mother decided to give it a try. Plus it would be a break for her from having to fight me. I didn't even get through a week before my mother threw in the towel and forced me to take a bath. I had become a walking Pig Pen, a cave man child! Hehehehe… Eventually my mother got me into the habit of taking a bath. And though I still recognize it for what it is even today, Work!; lucky for everyone around me, I still do it. Our minds also get dirty, and meditation is the way to clean them. But, unfortunately, we never had parents reminding us everyday, "Okay, young man/woman, now its time for you to meditate and go to bed." And, like I was when I was a kid, if we are left to our own devices, we will let our minds become virtual Pig Pens with filth, clutter, and dirt. Some people learn that they must shift this dirt around on a daily basis in order to function, but the dirt still remains. But we all know, instinctively, that if we only meditated that would help to get rid of the dirt and we wouldn't have to move it around anymore. But most don't because meditation is work! And if you have let your mind get really, really, really dirty over many lifetimes, it can be some seriously hard work! It is like a lot of people are walking around completely filthy, stinking of B.O., hair all matted, and teeth all crusty and they say, "You know, I have heard of taking a bath, and for some reason that idea really appeals to me. I'm not sure why. Hmmmm… Well, maybe I will do it someday." Of course by the time they get to bathing themselves, they may just have to take off a layer of skin to get clean! So, I always urge everyone to meditate. I know it is hard work, it's hard work for me each time I do it; but you will feel so much better afterward. Your mind will be cleaner and wiser, you day will be happier, and your life will be brighter. After all, no one needs a dirty mind! ;-) Just start out with what you could do Janice, and work your way up. Kids can meditate also. Ask me again about this another time...this post is already getting very long! ;-) > > -Is the eight foot path important to Buddhists? (James: hehehe...actually it is called the Eightfold Path or the Eight-Branched Path (which I like because it reminds me that they seem separate but they are really one path...like the branches on the tree). It isn't the eight foot path...or we all could get to the end of that really fast! ;-) Maybe in one jump. And yes, it is very, very important to Buddhist. It is the answer to the problem of human suffering. Check out some of my other letters describing this path so that I don't write anymore. I hope you aren't asleep by this point! ;-) > > Please send me more poems as I really enjoy as they > are funny! > > Metta, > Janice Chung Metta, James (I only put my name on the same line as the farewell because this is the Internet and I don't like to make people scroll for no reason. But you are right the way you do it. Just didn't want you to be confused about that ;-) (ps. Okay, since I am going to be moving to Cairo, Egypt this summer to teach English for two years, here is a poem I like and it reminds me of Egypt: Don't Bring Camels in the Classroom by Kenn Nesbitt Don't bring camels in the classroom. Don't bring scorpions to school. Don't bring rhinos, rats, or reindeer. Don't bring mice or moose or mule. Pull your penguin off the playground. Put your python in a tree. Place your platypus wherever you think platypi should be. Lose your leopard and your lemur. Leave your llama and your leech. Take your tiger, toad, and toucan anywhere but where they teach. Send your wombat and your weasel with your wasp and wolverine. Hide your hedgehog and hyena where you're sure they won't be seen. Please get rid of your gorilla. Please kick out your kangaroo. No, the teacher didn't mean it when she called the class a "zoo." 19634 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 0:41am Subject: ~Rebirth & WW2~ Hi James, I've heard you've gone on a vacation from here, where'd you go? Well, Im not sure if I ate healthy or not..I went to China and ate lots of stuff, yummy stuff! =) Yes, I agree..if they world gets into another war..alot of innocent people will dieand the world will become a disaster which Im sure nobody wants that to happen. I've heard about the concentration camps and seenpictures of them because just a few months ago, I was doing a project for a drama class that was performing a show about Hitler, concentration camps, the Nazis, etc. Its called "The Wave"..Have you heard of that movie before? Its all about a class learning about Hitler and concentration camps. It was sure a good movie! The poem was very beautiful..I loved it! I feel really sorry for all the adults and children that was sent to the concentrations camps. Thats a very interesting way of being reborn. What will happen to the Nazis when they are reborn? Well, I hope you had fun in wherever you went for your holiday! Can you tell me something you did? How was it? Can you tell me more about the concentration camps and WW2?? Does Buddhists go to church like Christians and Catholic ? Talk to you later-Take care-Love, JoJo* 19635 From: smallchap Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 1:32am Subject: Re: To Smallchap and Sarah about vipassana practice Hi Dinesh, I do find that practising vipassana regularly helps in my mundane chore. I am more efficient and more focus in the work I do, compare to previouly before I practise vapassana. As far as attitude is concerned, yes, there is a change. The urge to escape from samsara is much stronger than before. I teach vapassana meditation too, after my teacher told me to do so some 9 yers ago. So I suppose I have helped others as well. If the experience I described above (nothing to cry about)can help you in anyway in wantung to practise vipassana, that is well and good. I believe you know the purpose of pratising vapassanan meditation. regards, smallchap --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Diny@" wrote: > Hi Smallchap. > > I asked experience of Vipassana to share so that it can help us ( like me ) to > get charge. If you are practising for 18 yrs great , definately life goes on > usually for all , but after Vipassana did it help you in doing Good Job, > thinking attitude or is it same as it was before 18 yrs ?? > > About Transform i mean that did you help others too ??? > > metta > - Dinesh > > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Hi Smallchap, > > > > Good to see you posting after a looong break;-);-)So glad you're still > > around. > > > > --- "smallchap " wrote: > > > > > > I have been practising anapana/vipassana for about 18 years. It has > > > not transformed my life. Life goes on as usual for me. I have not > > > transformed others' lives too through vipassana. Lives go on as > > > usual for them too. > > > > > > :) > > ..... > > I smiled a lot when I read these comments.....yes, life has to go on as > > usual for all of us. Looking for some kind of transformation can be a > > mistake I think and is usually just an indication of more lobha and desire > > for some special results. > > > > > > > > smallchap > > > p.s. I consider life transform to be from a puthujjana to an ariya. > > ..... > > Good answer! > > > > I'm waiting for Dinesh's response..... > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > ====== 19636 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 4:24am Subject: (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Dhamma Friends, So far have I described very concisely about Citta,Cetasikas and Rupas in my series of (1) Citta As A Leader (2)Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers-5 messages and (3) Rupa As A Ladder.In this message Pannatta will be delineated. Pannatta(naming,calling,nominating) is a necessity in daily life,without which the world would be so awkward to deal with.Even The Buddha had to utilise Pannatta.In Dhamma preaching,Pannatta had to be used.For understanding Dhamma,Pannatta is entirely necessary. Realisation of The Dhamma has to pass through words of Pannatta.Without Pannatta,realisation of everything will never be possible. There are two types of Pannatta,Sadda-pannatta and Atta-pannatta.Atta- pannatta is the final Pannatta that conveys all the necessary messages about dhammas and the nature and its laws.Sadda-pannatta is a bit different from Atta-pannatta and many languages are sorts of different sounds representing Pannatta.When the practitioner of Jhana completes his jhana and Abhinna,there is no language barrier as he will pass through the words of Atta-pannatta and realises all wishes of those sattas that he directs as Paracita-vijjanana. Sadda-pannatta is different in different countries,states,nations,races,tribes and societies.But finally the all carry the same message if the origional message is the same.But translation may makes a bit difference.However,the most important thing is to obtain the message passed by The Buddha. Pannatta is not a real thing or it is not a Paramattha Sacca.It has no lifespan.It does not arise or pass away and it is not a universal truth or ultimate truth.But all the practitioners of Dhamma have to ride on the Vehicle of Pannatta to go to Nibbana. May you all understand Pannatta and use it as a vehicle to go to Nibbana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 19638 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:12am Subject: Message sent in error Dear All My apologies for the earlier message (now deleted) that was sent in error. Jon 19639 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... <> I understand the Dhamma as teaching cause and result. Such and such a cause, if certain conditions are present, will bring such and such a result. That kind of thing. This applies to the development of understanding as much as anything else. However, we must bear in mind that the development of insight is the most difficult thing there is or ever could be to understand, and the exact causal factors are simply not capable of being laid out in bullet point form. Even in the case of the 5 precepts, which concern action the grossest kind of action (i.e., bodily rather than mental action), the teaching is not expressed in terms of volitional action/restraint. The precepts are an 'undertaking of the training of refraining from' the conduct in question. What is being taught is the cultivation of the kusala that is mental restraint. Kusala mental restraint is not the same as forced avoidance. One is kusala, the other is akusala. Turning to the specific factors you mention (hearing to and reflecting on the teachings), neither of these is a volitional activity anyway, to my thinking. For example, whether we get to hear the true dhamma is as much a function of past kamma and our interest in following up on opportunities that present themselves, as it is of present volition, wouldn't you say. It's not really something we can make happen. Perhaps we don’t appreciate at times how greatly privileged we are to have both the opportunities that we do, and the interest to make the most of those opportunities, in this lifetime. As regards reflecting on the dhamma, I'm sure you must have had the experience of this happening subconsciously, completely involuntarily, while going about your regular daily activities. There may be no apparent (conventional) volition involved, but perhaps quite a lot of kusala. Conversely, times of deliberate and directed reflecting on chosen objects may involve quite a lot of akusala (if we are honest with ourselves about it). To me, it's a matter of understanding that these necessary factors, like all other dhammas, are conditioned dhammas. <<... and that this alone results in the subsequent arising of kusala conditions which eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, to all the enlightenment factors, and, eventually, to liberation.>> According to my reading of the teachings, the one thing that 'alone results in the subsequent arising of kusala conditions which eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, etc ...' would satipatthana, but this cannot be developed without the repeated hearing of and reflecting on the words of the Buddha. None of this would be what I think of as volitional activity. <> I hope I've clarified. Do you think the interpretation I've given is reasonably open on the texts (I'm not asking you to agree with it, of course ;-))? <<(This is not at all my understanding of the Dhamma, but I know that you realize that. I do not consider the Dhamma as mainly descriptive but as mainly prescriptive.)>> Yes, understood. Jon 19640 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 2/15/03 7:25:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Pannatta is not a real thing or it is not a Paramattha Sacca.It has > no lifespan.It does not arise or pass away ... =========================== Either there are pa~n~natti or there are not. If there are no such things (no namings, no callings, no concepts that are constructs from more elementary mental phenomena), then ... But, of course, there *are* concepts. Whenever we think of a tree or a table or a house, there is a concept, and whenever we "see" one of these, we are applying a concept as a template to a bundle of just-passed visual experiences. Both the concepts themselves and the application of them to "bundles of just-passed experiences" actually occur. So, there *are* pa~n~natti in the sense of mentally constructed phenomena that are used as templates applied to aggregates of direct experiences. These pa~n~natti DO arise and pass away, for they exist and are conditioned, and all conditioned dhammas are impermanent! Now, the word 'pa~n~natta' is *also* used for the alleged *referent* of a concept. Even when that is a paramattha dhamma, it is not an existent in the mode that it is grasped by the pa~n~natta, for that mode of (conceptual) grasping is merely indirect and inferential. Of course, the referent of a *complex* concept such as 'tree' isn't even amenable to direct experiencing but *only* via the mental construct of 'tree'. But the conventional tree is not nothing at all, because it is based on an aggregate of actual, interrelated, direct experiences. Conventional objects such as trees, though not existing *as such*, independent of our conceptualization, still can be considered to be impermanent; to the extent that they exist, which is merely conventional, they are derivatively impermanent, because the underlying "realities" are impermanent. The "tree" is seen to grow from a seed, to constantly change, with leaves growing and falling off, with branches accupying varying conditions - swaying in the breeze. That is all, of course, merely a conventional manner of speaking, but it reflects the reality of the impermanence of the paramattha dhammas underlying "the tree". I think we tread on dangerous ground when we speak of things other than nibbana as neither arising nor ceasing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19641 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Hi, Jon - What I would like to understand is what in your opinion is the difference between being a Buddhist and not being a Buddhist. As I understand the position you express in the following, there is no path of practice; whatever happens, happens - period. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/15/03 8:52:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Jon - > ... > < reflecting on the teachings - that is the only thing you understand > the Dhamma as teaching us to volitionally do, ...>> > > I understand the Dhamma as teaching cause and result. Such and such > a cause, if certain conditions are present, will bring such and such > a result. That kind of thing. > > This applies to the development of understanding as much as anything > else. However, we must bear in mind that the development of insight > is the most difficult thing there is or ever could be to understand, > and the exact causal factors are simply not capable of being laid out > in bullet point form. > > Even in the case of the 5 precepts, which concern action the grossest > kind of action (i.e., bodily rather than mental action), the teaching > is not expressed in terms of volitional action/restraint. The > precepts are an 'undertaking of the training of refraining from' the > conduct in question. What is being taught is the cultivation of the > kusala that is mental restraint. Kusala mental restraint is not the > same as forced avoidance. One is kusala, the other is akusala. > > Turning to the specific factors you mention (hearing to and > reflecting on the teachings), neither of these is a volitional > activity anyway, to my thinking. > > For example, whether we get to hear the true dhamma is as much a > function of past kamma and our interest in following up on > opportunities that present themselves, as it is of present volition, > wouldn't you say. It's not really something we can make happen. > Perhaps we don’t appreciate at times how greatly privileged we are to > have both the opportunities that we do, and the interest to make the > most of those opportunities, in this lifetime. > > As regards reflecting on the dhamma, I'm sure you must have had the > experience of this happening subconsciously, completely > involuntarily, while going about your regular daily activities. > There may be no apparent (conventional) volition involved, but > perhaps quite a lot of kusala. Conversely, times of deliberate and > directed reflecting on chosen objects may involve quite a lot of > akusala (if we are honest with ourselves about it). > > To me, it's a matter of understanding that these necessary factors, > like all other dhammas, are conditioned dhammas. > > <<... and that this alone results in the subsequent arising of kusala > conditions which eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, > to all the enlightenment factors, and, eventually, to liberation.>> > > According to my reading of the teachings, the one thing that 'alone > results in the subsequent arising of kusala conditions which > eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, etc ...' would > satipatthana, but this cannot be developed without the repeated > hearing of and reflecting on the words of the Buddha. > > None of this would be what I think of as volitional activity. > > <> > > I hope I've clarified. Do you think the interpretation I've given is > reasonably open on the texts (I'm not asking you to agree with it, of > course ;-))? > > <<(This is not at all my understanding of the Dhamma, but I know that > you realize that. I do not consider the Dhamma as mainly descriptive > but as mainly prescriptive.)>> > > Yes, understood. > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19642 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:31am Subject: Typo Correction Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, all - In a message dated 2/15/03 10:52:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > with branches > accupying varying conditions > ========================= That should have been "with branches occupying varying positions." Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19643 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:42am Subject: hello Hello, and greetings to everyone on this list, My name is Prema Dasa. I live in Lawrence Kansas. I am new to buddhism and would like to learn more about it. I have read some books about buddhism, and have an idea how to practice mindfullness meditaion. Some time ago I read a short biography of a Thai monk named Phra Ajaan Lee and was very impressed with his life and teachings, and I would like to learn more. Thank you very much for allowing me to join your group. your friend, Prema 19644 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: aniccata Dear Htoo and Swee Boon, I have to translate Dhamma Issues on this very topic, and this prompts me to do so as soon as time allows. Htoo is completely right. As I said, I learnt something from this Dhamma Issue I have to translate and will have to amend the relevant chapter of my rupas. Nina op 13-02-2003 20:25 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > Aniccata is one of four Lakkhana-rupas.Lakkhana is just a > characteristic.So,in real sense it is not a real rupa.It is not > influenced by Kamma,Citta,Utu and Ahara because it is just a > characteristic. > 19645 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation and Abhidhamma Hi Larry, speech intimation is a special kind of rupa that performs its function when speech is expressed by citta. There are both nama and rupa involved here. Same with bodily intimation, a special kind of rupa that performs its function when citta expresses a meaning by the body. Body, speech and mind is under another heading, we speak of kamma through body, speech and mind. Nina. op 13-02-2003 23:40 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > To me, "intimation" means "speech". So are you saying speech is rupa? > Speech seems to have its own category in the "body, speech and mind" > grouping. I assumed that speech = concept, but maybe there is more to it > than that. Let's let it be for awhile. Maybe clarity will dawn sometime > later. 19646 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] /Nice to write to you again Hi Janice, I hope you had a fun holiday, and perhaps collected a few envelopes ;-). Only the Chinese communities here cerebrated the Chinese New Year, so it is not such a big event. In Thailand, Chinese New Year is a big event too, because there are many Chinese descents in Thailand. You ask a very good question (because it is hard to answer). Mindfulness is like, when you remember to do good things. For example, when you see somebody in need of help, instead of feeling bad, you remember to help them however you can. When a bug bites you, instead of squashing him or throwing him down on the floor, you put him down gently so he doesn't get hurt. There are many different kinds of mindfulness, but whenever you remember to 1) do something good, 2) avoid doing something bad, or 3) develop good qualities of the mind and also wisdom, these are all mindfulness. I hope this answer your question. If not, please let me know. Hope you write some more. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 10:48 PM > To: dsg > Subject: [dsg] /Nice to write to you again > > Do you mind to explain a little more > about mindfulness? Is it related to the buddha? 19647 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Kamma (was: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) I am a Buddhist from birth thru family upbringing. A Buddhist in name only and was only later totally surprised by the whole underlying explanation and categorization of almost all phenomena. It looks like represent the model of the truth I am looking for. The analysis of many phenomena is simply overhelming, clicks quite well and in itself is a total marvel. The amazing thing is it has been around more than 2,500 years and still it is not discovered or simply, deliberately ignored. Science has still a lot... no tons and tons to catch up with it. Then it may concur and coincide with it and that is - if science is swayed away from its correct course. Look at Galileo's case. Do not get me wrong. I am and still will be skeptical of Buddhism and that is called for by Buddha himself, who said - Do not believe just because someone says it is true. As a side note: Gotama Buddha is but only one of many Fully enlightened Buddha's. There are even more 'Not Fully enlightened Buddha's, who also of course reached Nibbana (or Nirvana). Thanks. Eddie Lou --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Eddie, > > I think this may have been your first message on DSG > (sometimes I’m not > sure;-)). Anyway, welcome either way and thanks for > posting some > interesting comments: > > --- Eddie Lou wrote: > > > All based on some kind of Karmic energy level > still to > > be discovered by science. > > > all our action (kamma) come into played and > everything > > is accountable and no administrator all automatic > as > > in the law of conservation of energy or other > physical > > laws. > ..... > This reminded me of some further comments U Narada > makes in “Guide to > Conditional Relations” based on commentary notes to > the Patthana, > concerning kamma condition. ‘Asynchronous kamma’ > refers to “the volition > which produces a result at a different instant of > time” as opposed to > conascent kamma or cetana which does not bring > results. > > “.....Although an asynchronous faultless or > faulty > volition arises for one thought-moment and then > ceases, this is not the > end of it. For a special force is left behind in > the mind’s successive > continuity so that at some time in the future, the > appropriate result of > that volition will be produced when the proper > conditions are > satisfied.............” > > He gives a helpful example from the > Paticcasamuppada-vibhanga commentary: > > “A person borrows money from another. This act of > borrowing is finalised > and ceases as soon as the money is received by the > borrower. But because > the money was borrowed, there is the indebtedness > to repay the loan > either in a lump sum or in instalments. The > borrower has to abide by his > promise to repay and this cannot be avoided by any > means. The main > concern here is not whether there has been the past > act of borrowing or > not, but the responsibility to repay the loan. Only > when the whole amount > has been paid will there be relief from this > responsibility. > > In a similar way, when an act of kamma is performed, > the kamma, before it > ceases, leaves behind a special force of > asynchronous kamma condition > which will, at some time in the future, produce an > appropriate result when > the conditions for its arising are satisfied. And > as long as the result > is not produced this indebtedness to kamma in the > round of rebirths is > ever present. The main concern here is not whether > there has been the past > act of kamma or not, but the indebtedness which will > surely produce a > result. But once a result is produced, the > indebtedness to kamma no longer > holds and no other result will be brought about > because of this particular > kamma. But if there is no opportunity for a result > to be produced, ie > kamma is no longer effective (ahosi kamma), then the > force of volition > ceases.” > > Later we read: > > “There is no place where materiality and mentality > are stored for their > continual arising and ceasing in succession. Just > as when a match is > struck a flame appears from nowhere and then > disappears, so also, when > object and base coincide consciousness and mental > factors arise from > nowhere, last for a thought-moment and then cease > and vanish altogether. > In this condition, volition, which is also an > ultimate reality, also > arises and ceases in the same fashion. > > “However, the force, which is left behind after > volition ceases, is not > destroyed and may be present for countless worlds in > the successive > continuity of a being, bound by craving, conceit and > wrong views, to > produce a result suddenly. The result cannot be > foreseen and seems to be > spontaneous. Indeed these forces give strange > results. As instances, all > of a sudden 1) a poor man wins a lottery and becomes > rich and 2) > presidents, prime ministers and national leaders are > assassinated or > gaoled.” > ***** > Hope to hear more from you Eddie and if you’d care > to add any info about > yourself, where you live or about your interest in > Buddhism, we’d all be > glad to hear. > > With metta, > > Sarah > ====== 19648 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: aniccata Hi, Nina (and Htoo) - In a message dated 2/15/03 1:18:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Htoo and Swee Boon, > I have to translate Dhamma Issues on this very topic, and this prompts me > to > do so as soon as time allows. Htoo is completely right. As I said, I learnt > something from this Dhamma Issue I have to translate and will have to amend > the relevant chapter of my rupas. > Nina > > op 13-02-2003 20:25 schreef htootintnaing op > htootintnaing@y...: > > > >Aniccata is one of four Lakkhana-rupas.Lakkhana is just a > >characteristic.So,in real sense it is not a real rupa.It is not > >influenced by Kamma,Citta,Utu and Ahara because it is just a > >characteristic. > > > > ============================ In fact, it's just a concept, isn't it? We never directly observe impermanence. We observe dhammas, and then we observe that they are no longer around. We CALL that being-present-at-one-time and not-being-present-at-a-later-time "impermanence". Likewise, dependent arising is concept-only. There occur dependently arisen dhammas, but dependent origination is concept-only. These are, of course, well grounded concepts, not imaginary, and, in fact, of supreme importance, but they are concepts, nonetheless. In abhidhamma, everything is either paramattha dhamma or pa~n~natta. Impermanence and paticcasamupada are pa~n~natti. (All the more reason to avoid speaking of pa~n~natti as nonexistent, I'd say.) To awaken to the truth of impermanence is actually to lose the belief in permanence and, ultimately, the sense of permanence with regard to conditioned dhammas. To awaken to the truth of not-self, is to lose the belief in (and ultimately the sense of) a core to be found in the "person" or in any dhamma, to lose the tendency towards reification. At least this is how I see the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19649 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 0:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Ken, When I say Buddha that is the Fully enlightened Buddha's and there are many of them and not the Not Fully enlightened Buddha's, who also reached Nibbana. That is what I had learnt (from one of my teacher or mentor - in modern term) and known of. About negative aspects of... issue, I think you hit it right, that is what I think it is not just warning against women but ALSO men as well from their respective opposite sex. It just happens that the event pointed in one direction against the women. In general, it is about craving or Tanha, which is driving our samsara cycle or bad loop. A good person never discriminates 'with volition' against another person for whatever reason. Frankly, I believe Buddha is a good person. We should look more relevant things and investigate before jumping into wrong conclusion. I would think it can be 'a continuing investigation', and I think Buddha will actually want that if he is still around us. Because Buddha said do not believe whatever just because someone says or even a lot of people say or tradition says so. Investigate yourself. This is in "Kalama Sutta", it is said but I do not have that Sutta. I am very impressed with preachings of many (I want to say 'ALL' but refrain) phenomena. The preachings read more like a text books of very high learning than story books. Very intricate, detailed and yet it seems click so well with what we know so far. Talking about ...created... it just happened to be like that and this is one of the questions I still have why all these samsara game plan who started all this I still have not real good answer to it. --- "kenhowardau " wrote: > Hello Eddie, > > You wrote: > ------ > > Ken, > > >You described it really good, that is what exactly > I > have read in one of the books. > > ----- > > > Thanks Eddie, I don't recall many of the details I > have > read about samsara but I know it's not a nice > place to be. > > You mentioned in passing, that the Buddha always > helped > those people at the extremes -- the worst and the > best -- > and not in between. If I understand you correctly, > you > are are referring to the men and women who attained > enlightenment soon after hearing the Dhamma. But > really, > all of them had 'only a little dust in their eyes.' > Even > though some of them had evil traits, they all had > enormous accumulations of panna . Even the serial > killer, Anguilimala, had lived the good life in many > previous existences. > > I think I may have seen that sutta you referred to > -- the > one about a man who was ready to join the sangha > except > he couldn't resist the beautiful woman to whom he > was > engaged. (Kom has given us a link, I will look it > up as > soon as I go on line.) As I remember it, he joined > the > sangha with the idea that it would give him access > to > fabulously beautiful women living in the deva > realms. > Later, he realised that the other monks found it > highly > amusing that he had actually become a monk to meet > girls, > and he lost his craving. > > After reading all the helpful messages on this > thread, I > see the warnings against women (or the opposite sex, > as > the case may be), purely as warnings against > attachment > to samsara. The Buddha said (somewhere), that there > is > nothing more attractive to a man than a woman and > nothing > more attractive to a woman than a man. So, women > (and > men) are the most obvious examples to give in > warning > against attachment. > > Kind regards > Ken H 19650 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Kamma (was: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) I want to add that Yep it is my first here in this group and hope to learn from all of you. Also one of my hobbies is science - Physical sciences like Physics, Chemistry, Biology in that order. Also computer Or Information technology. I am also interested in world affairs. I always try to be a good and real buddhist and try to see things "AS I" limited only by my small limited wisdom. I am or at least try to be open minded. However, I can be very stubborn if I feel I am correct but I do always try to check out if I am correct, given all the known (I try keep on learning) facts. I hope I answer your request. Thanks, Metta, Eddie. --- Eddie Lou wrote: > I am a Buddhist from birth thru family upbringing. > > A Buddhist in name only and was only later totally > surprised by the whole underlying explanation and > categorization of almost all phenomena. > > It looks like represent the model of the truth I am > looking for. The analysis of many phenomena is > simply > overhelming, clicks quite well and in itself is a > total marvel. > > The amazing thing is it has been around more than > 2,500 years and still it is not discovered or > simply, > deliberately ignored. > > Science has still a lot... no tons and tons to catch > up with it. Then it may concur and coincide with it > and that is - if science is swayed away from its > correct course. Look at Galileo's case. > > Do not get me wrong. I am and still will be > skeptical > of > Buddhism and that is called for by Buddha himself, > who > said - Do not believe just because someone says it > is > true. As a side note: Gotama Buddha is but only one > of > many Fully enlightened Buddha's. There are even more > 'Not Fully enlightened Buddha's, who also of course > reached Nibbana (or Nirvana). > > Thanks. > > Eddie Lou > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Hi Eddie, > > > > I think this may have been your first message on > DSG > > (sometimes I’m not > > sure;-)). Anyway, welcome either way and thanks > for > > posting some > > interesting comments: > > > > --- Eddie Lou wrote: > > > > > All based on some kind of Karmic energy level > > still to > > > be discovered by science. > > > > > all our action (kamma) come into played and > > everything > > > is accountable and no administrator all > automatic > > as > > > in the law of conservation of energy or other > > physical > > > laws. > > ..... > > This reminded me of some further comments U Narada > > makes in “Guide to > > Conditional Relations” based on commentary notes > to > > the Patthana, > > concerning kamma condition. ‘Asynchronous kamma’ > > refers to “the volition > > which produces a result at a different instant of > > time” as opposed to > > conascent kamma or cetana which does not bring > > results. > > > > “.....Although an asynchronous faultless > or > > faulty > > volition arises for one thought-moment and then > > ceases, this is not the > > end of it. For a special force is left behind in > > the mind’s successive > > continuity so that at some time in the future, the > > appropriate result of > > that volition will be produced when the proper > > conditions are > > satisfied.............” > > > > He gives a helpful example from the > > Paticcasamuppada-vibhanga commentary: > > > > “A person borrows money from another. This act of > > borrowing is finalised > > and ceases as soon as the money is received by the > > borrower. But because > > the money was borrowed, there is the indebtedness > > to repay the loan > > either in a lump sum or in instalments. The > > borrower has to abide by his > > promise to repay and this cannot be avoided by any > > means. The main > > concern here is not whether there has been the > past > > act of borrowing or > > not, but the responsibility to repay the loan. > Only > > when the whole amount > > has been paid will there be relief from this > > responsibility. > > > > In a similar way, when an act of kamma is > performed, > > the kamma, before it > > ceases, leaves behind a special force of > > asynchronous kamma condition > > which will, at some time in the future, produce an > > appropriate result when > > the conditions for its arising are satisfied. And > > as long as the result > > is not produced this indebtedness to kamma in the > > round of rebirths is > > ever present. The main concern here is not whether > > there has been the past > > act of kamma or not, but the indebtedness which > will > > surely produce a > > result. But once a result is produced, the > > indebtedness to kamma no longer > > holds and no other result will be brought about > > because of this particular > > kamma. But if there is no opportunity for a > result > > to be produced, ie > > kamma is no longer effective (ahosi kamma), then > the > > force of volition > > ceases.” > > > > Later we read: > > > > “There is no place where materiality and mentality > > are stored for their > > continual arising and ceasing in succession. Just > > as when a match is > > struck a flame appears from nowhere and then > > disappears, so also, when > > object and base coincide consciousness and mental > > factors arise from > > nowhere, last for a thought-moment and then cease > > and vanish altogether. > > In this condition, volition, which is also an > > ultimate reality, also > > arises and ceases in the same fashion. > > > > “However, the force, which is left behind after > > volition ceases, is not > > destroyed and may be present for countless worlds > in > > the successive > > continuity of a being, bound by craving, conceit > and > > wrong views, to > > produce a result suddenly. The result cannot be > > foreseen and seems to be > > spontaneous. Indeed these forces give strange > > results. As instances, all > > of a sudden 1) a poor man wins a lottery and > becomes > > rich and 2) > > presidents, prime ministers and national leaders > are > > assassinated or > > gaoled.” > > ***** > > Hope to hear more from you Eddie and if you’d care > > to add any info about > > yourself, where you live or about your interest in > > Buddhism, we’d all be > > glad to hear. > > > > With metta, > > > > Sarah > > ====== 19651 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 1:41pm Subject: Abhidhamma Dear Group, Elsewhere there has been discussion as to whether there are sutta references to the Abhidhamma. The Gulissani Sutta was mentioned as proof that there was. (My only texts are the Wisdom Discourses by DN by Maurice Walshe, MN B. Nanomoli and B. Bodhi, and SN by B.Bodhi.) In looking up this sutta, I found it in MN 69 Gulissani sutta (p572) "A forest-dwelling bhikkhu should apply himself to the higher Dhamma and the higher Discipline." [note 693] This seemed a clear reference to Abhidhamma, but in reading the note, and a subsequent reference to another note, I am not so sure. Note 693 says: "abhidhamma abhivinaya. MA says that he should apply himself to learning the text and commentary to the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the 'Vinaya Pitaka. This is clearly anachronistic. On Abhidhamma in the context of the suttas, see note 362. Although there is no corresponding body of literature called "Abhivinaya," it seems probable the word refers to a systematic and analytical approach to the study of the Vinaya, perhaps that embeded in the Sutta-vibhanga of the Vinaya Pitaka." Note 363 appears in the MN 32 Mahagosinga Sutta (p. 307): "Here, friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the higher Dhamma [n. 362] and they question each other, and each being questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could illuiminated this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." Note 362 says: "Abhidhamma: Though the word cannot refer here to the Pitaka of that name - obviously the product of a phase of Buddhist thought later than the Nikayas - it may well indicate a systematic and analytical approach to the doctrine that served as the original nucleus of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. In a careful study of the contexts in which the word "Abhidhamma" occurs in the Sutta Pitakas of several early recensions, the Japanese Pali scholar Fumimaro Watanabe concludes that the Buddha's own disciples formed the conception of Abhidhamma as an elementary philosophical study that attempted to define, analyse, and classify dhammas and to explore their mutual relations. See his 'Philosophy and its Development in the Nikayas and Abhidhamma, pp. 34-36." So, my question is - are there any references in the Suttas which irrefutably mention the Abhidhamma Pitaka by name? I do not have access to Watanabe's book, but wonder if his conclusions are disputed, and what are the implications if the Abhidhamma is considered to be a product of the Buddha's disciples? metta, Christine 19652 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 1:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Thanks. One comment: the URL or website should only be upto 2nd last qualifier or subdirectories or http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ and NOT http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3-02.h and ud3-02.h means Section# 3 and bullet item# 2. Otherwise, it will say website not found. Thanks again, Kom. --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Eddie & Ken, > > Here's the sutta: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3-02.h > tml > > V. Nanda is praised by the Buddha to be one who > excelled in > protecting the faculties. > > kom > > ps: I can appreciate the saying that the Buddha is > the tamer > of all men who can be tamed in this sutta. I don't > see how > it is related to the titled topic. It is normal: > there is > always a better > looking/sounding/smelling/tasting/tangible > thing. Don't we look all our lives for these > things? > 19653 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/15/03 4:42:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > So, my question is - are there any references in the Suttas which > irrefutably mention the Abhidhamma Pitaka by name? I do not have > access to Watanabe's book, but wonder if his conclusions are > disputed, and what are the implications if the Abhidhamma is > considered to be a product of the Buddha's disciples? > > ============================== Didn't the entire tipitaka post-date the Buddha? If so, there wouldn't be a sutta reference to the "Sutta Pitaka" either. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19654 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Smallchap and Sarah about vipassana practice Hi, All, One possibility is - vipassana practice itself, whether under guidance or not. I myself know precious few of practical vipassana, which is how Gotama attained Full and Final enlightment. I heard it is very effective. I remember there is a program in notorious Tihar prison in India administered by Goenka (his mentor is Sayagyi U Ba Khin) that shows great results in changing hard core criminals' attitude altogether. I think I still have the paper article (Asiaweek) but no computer scanner. Maybe you want to share some of your 18 years of vipassana experience and we can learn from it. Thx. --- "Diny@" wrote: > Hi Smallchap. > > I asked experience of Vipassana to share so that it > can help us ( like me ) to > get charge. If you are practising for 18 yrs great , > definately life goes on > usually for all , but after Vipassana did it help > you in doing Good Job, > thinking attitude or is it same as it was before 18 > yrs ?? > > About Transform i mean that did you help others too > ??? > > metta > - Dinesh > > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Hi Smallchap, > > > > Good to see you posting after a looong > break;-);-)So glad you're still > > around. > > > > --- "smallchap " > wrote: > > > > > > I have been practising anapana/vipassana for > about 18 years. It has > > > not transformed my life. Life goes on as usual > for me. I have not > > > transformed others' lives too through vipassana. > Lives go on as > > > usual for them too. > > > > > > :) > > ..... > > I smiled a lot when I read these comments.....yes, > life has to go on as > > usual for all of us. Looking for some kind of > transformation can be a > > mistake I think and is usually just an indication > of more lobha and desire > > for some special results. > > > > > > > > smallchap > > > p.s. I consider life transform to be from a > puthujjana to an ariya. > > ..... > > Good answer! > > > > I'm waiting for Dinesh's response..... > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > ====== 19655 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: aniccata Hi, all - In a message dated 2/15/03 2:53:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, Nina (and Htoo) - > ======================== I should have written "Hi, Nina (and Htoo and Swee Boon) -". Sorry, Swee Boon - just an oversight. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19656 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:19pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Hi Howard and All, I think the point of my post was that I was asking if the word 'Abhidhama' is used anywhere in the Suttas to indisputably mean the body of teaching that was eventually written down in the Tipitaka. I have been taught that the Teachings were not written down until about four hundred years after the death of the Buddha. I have been taught that they were recited at the First Council by Ananda and Upali; that they were passed on orally within the Sangha by trained groups of Reciters; that they were all written down at the same time in Sri Lanka on Palm Leaves and divided into 'three baskets' at that point, from where we get the term Tipitaka. The understanding I had was that the Three Baskets were equally authoritative and revered. My understanding has been that they are all saying the same thing in different ways and with different emphases. There is a promotion elsewhere of the opinion that the Abhidhamma is somehow a later development and not the direct work of the Buddha. Or that perhaps it was a teaching only taught to a handful of disciples. Something I don't believe the Buddha did. I had believed there would be cross references in each to the others, and so my last post came to be written when I needed clarification on this point. Often one sees only the Suttas being acknowledged as the only true Teachings of the Buddha. Were there Arahats at the Third Council who recited the Abhidhamma? Were there Arahats at the Fourth Council who recited the Tipitaka entire? If all the Teachings were written down at the one time, how can one pitaka be valued over the other two? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - Didn't the entire tipitaka post-date the Buddha? If so, there wouldn't > be a sutta reference to the "Sutta Pitaka" either. > > With metta, > Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > Elsewhere there has been discussion as to whether there are sutta > references to the Abhidhamma. The Gulissani Sutta was mentioned as > proof that there was. (My only texts are the Wisdom Discourses by > DN by Maurice Walshe, MN B. Nanomoli and B. Bodhi, and SN by > B.Bodhi.) > > In looking up this sutta, I found it in MN 69 Gulissani sutta (p572) > "A forest-dwelling bhikkhu should apply himself to the higher Dhamma > and the higher Discipline." [note 693] > This seemed a clear reference to Abhidhamma, but in reading the note, > and a subsequent reference to another note, I am not so sure. > > Note 693 says: > "abhidhamma abhivinaya. MA says that he should apply himself to > learning the text and commentary to the Abhidhamma Pitaka and > the 'Vinaya Pitaka. This is clearly anachronistic. On Abhidhamma in > the context of the suttas, see note 362. Although there is no > corresponding body of literature called "Abhivinaya," it seems > probable the word refers to a systematic and analytical approach to > the study of the Vinaya, perhaps that embeded in the Sutta-vibhanga > of the Vinaya Pitaka." > > Note 363 appears in the MN 32 Mahagosinga Sutta (p. 307): > "Here, friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the higher > Dhamma [n. 362] and they question each other, and each being > questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk > rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could > illuiminated this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." > > Note 362 says: > "Abhidhamma: Though the word cannot refer here to the Pitaka of that > name - obviously the product of a phase of Buddhist thought later > than the Nikayas - it may well indicate a systematic and analytical > approach to the doctrine that served as the original nucleus of the > Abhidhamma Pitaka. In a careful study of the contexts in which the > word "Abhidhamma" occurs in the Sutta Pitakas of several early > recensions, the Japanese Pali scholar Fumimaro Watanabe concludes > that the Buddha's own disciples formed the conception of Abhidhamma > as an elementary philosophical study that attempted to define, > analyse, and classify dhammas and to explore their mutual relations. > See his 'Philosophy and its Development in the Nikayas and > Abhidhamma, pp. 34-36." > > So, my question is - are there any references in the Suttas which > irrefutably mention the Abhidhamma Pitaka by name? I do not have > access to Watanabe's book, but wonder if his conclusions are > disputed, and what are the implications if the Abhidhamma is > considered to be a product of the Buddha's disciples? > > metta, > Christine 19657 From: bodhi2500 Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 4:22pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Hi Christine and all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Howard and All, > > I think the point of my post was that I was asking if the > word 'Abhidhama' is used anywhere in the Suttas to indisputably mean > the body of teaching that was eventually written down in the > Tipitaka. I have been taught that the Teachings were not written > down until about four hundred years after the death of the Buddha. I'm not sure if this quote "indisputably" means the Abhidhamma as we know it today, but it seems to imply that the 3 divisions of teachings were around at the time of the Buddha. > "If, having asked for leave in regard to Suttana, she asks about Vinaya or > Abhidhamma,there is an offence of expiation".:Nun's Pacittiya XCV.Translation by I.B.Horner Take care Steve 19658 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation and Abhidhamma Hi Nina, Thanks for the clarification. I think I see the difference between concept and speech. Speech is a reality, an activity that causes results, while concept is abstract and has no causal function. But speech is made up of concepts. This is the part I don't understand. Does Patisambhidamagga have anything to say about the relationship between speech and concept? Larry 19659 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/15/03 6:21:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hi Howard and All, > > I think the point of my post was that I was asking if the > word 'Abhidhama' is used anywhere in the Suttas to indisputably mean > the body of teaching that was eventually written down in the > Tipitaka. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I was taking you too literally when you said "So, my question is - are there any references in the Suttas which irrefutably mention the Abhidhamma Pitaka by name?" My apologies. I expect that the answer to your question is probably "no", because the references you passed on from that other list are probably the best sort to be found, and it isn't absolutely clear that they refer to what became embodied in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the references to "abhidhamma" mentioned there didn't constitute some sort of predecessor of that material. ------------------------------------------------------ I have been taught that the Teachings were not written > > down until about four hundred years after the death of the Buddha. I > have been taught that they were recited at the First Council by > Ananda and Upali; that they were passed on orally within the Sangha > by trained groups of Reciters; that they were all written down at the > same time in Sri Lanka on Palm Leaves and divided into 'three > baskets' at that point, from where we get the term Tipitaka. The > understanding I had was that the Three Baskets were equally > authoritative and revered. My understanding has been that they are > all saying the same thing in different ways and with different > emphases. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me that there are some things in the Abhidhamma such as bhavanga citta, and five lower jhanas instead of four, and the details of the sequence of various types of cittas in the abhidhammic psychology of cognition that are not to be found in the suttas, but, for the most part, the Abhidhamma Pitaks contains a detailed systemization of the teachings recorded in the suttas. Whatever its origins, and to whatever extent it may embellish the teachings in the suttas, it appears to be an amazing piece of work. -------------------------------------------------------- > > There is a promotion elsewhere of the opinion that the Abhidhamma is > somehow a later development and not the direct work of the Buddha. Or > that perhaps it was a teaching only taught to a handful of disciples. > Something I don't believe the Buddha did. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: He explicitly said that he is not a closed-fist teacher, holding things back. On the other hand, he taught things differently to different people based on their needs and capacities, so conceivably he taught abhidhamma to a restricted audience. The claim, of course, is that he taught it directly to Sariputta, who took it from there. ---------------------------------------------------------- I had believed there > > would be cross references in each to the others, and so my last post > came to be written when I needed clarification on this point. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand. ----------------------------------------------------------- Often > > one sees only the Suttas being acknowledged as the only true > Teachings of the Buddha. Were there Arahats at the Third Council > who recited the Abhidhamma? Were there Arahats at the Fourth > Council who recited the Tipitaka entire? > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: How could we really verify this one way or the other? (One would hope that historians and archeologists could shed some light on this - provide some evidence one way or the other.) ----------------------------------------------------------- If all the Teachings were > > written down at the one time, how can one pitaka be valued over the > other two? > > metta, > Christine > > ================================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19660 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:31pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Dear Howard & Christine, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Howard: > How could we really verify this one way or > the other? (One would hope > that historians and archeologists could shed some > light on this - provide > some evidence one way or the other.) > -------------------------------------------------- > --------- > I agree with Howard that how can we prove any of it (not just abhidhamma) that all (or some) are the Buddha's teachings. Here is when this saying is most appropriate: he who sees the dhamma sees the Buddha. We might not be able to see the "dhamma" right now, but we can learn a bit at a time about other things that we can see. By learning what appears now as they truly are, we learn more about what the Buddha truly taught, and not just stories that we hear from other people. Stories, more cross-referencing, more historical evidence, are not ways that would eliminate one's doubt (completely). As soon as somebody throw in some disagreeing "analysis" and "facts", we are shaken from what we hear/believe before. But if we truly know and understand the evidence that is appearing right in front of us, then we are less likely to be shaken: the evidence is indisputable. Wisdom is a truly wonderful quality: it allows us to see things as they are, as the Buddha has taught them. kom Weight Age Gender Female Male 19661 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Htoo Naing, I don't understand how pannatta is the object of jhana. What does that mean? Is the object of jhana a word or idea attached to a visualization or 'sensualization' (as with touch in breath meditation)? In Way 50 (Satipatthana Commentary) there is the following: "It is said that a young bhikkhu went with a novice to get wood for tooth-cleaners. The novice getting out of the road proceeded in front to a place in search of wood and saw a corpse. Meditating on it he produced the first absorption, and making the factors of the absorption a basis for developing insight realized the first three fruitions of arahantship, while examining the conformations [sankhare sammasanto], and stood having laid hold of the subject of meditation for realizing the path of full arahantship." L: What would be the role of pannatta in this jhana? Would there be a visualization or similar dream-like experience? What are "the conformations"? Thanks for your help. Larry ps: I have read several accounts of children entering absorption by focusing on their names. Is this jhana? 19662 From: James Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:54pm Subject: Re: Adults and kids.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear James, > > Hello James! Happy EARLY chinese new year! (from Hong > Kong) I was wondering if do you have any siblings? > and are they as annoying as mine(heehee) well my > THREE brothers are VERY annoying... > > I really enjoyed the tale called"The Great Monkey > King" and how long did it take you to type the whole > thing out? Well it must have taken you at least 15 > mins. > > I read this REALLY good book called "The Little > Prince". When you told me that some adults are > just like kids, it just reminded me of this book. > Well if you didn't read it (im sure you did) then I > recommended. And also since you mentioned that some > adults are as childish as kids, then do you know who > is Pdiddy or Usher? > > I also wanted to ask you what got you into Buddhism??? > > Plz reply asap! > Thx > from Jan! Hi Star Kid Jan! Happy Chinese New Year to you too! Sorry it took me a while to respond but I got sidetracked a bit. Yes, I did have siblings, but not anymore. I had a brother and a sister but they have both died. My brother died from using illegal drugs and my sister died from a brain hemorrhage. I miss them but hope they were reborn into better lives than the ones they had. I didn't actually type `The Great Monkey King' for you; I cut and pasted it from the Internet. I think that if suddenly you couldn't cut and paste things from the Internet, I would die!…Right on the spot! ;-) Also, I haven't read the book `The Little Prince', but I hope to one day. This is the second time I have read a reference to it. I saw the movie but I bet the book is better. You ask me what got me into Buddhism. Well, that is not a simple answer, really. But I will tell you all about it, since it is interesting for an American to become interested in Buddhism… especially to the extent that I am. But Jan, I don't know what religion you are and I don't mean to offend you in anyway. You don't have to believe what I believe, but I am going to tell you everything, since you asked. When I first heard the story of the Buddha and how he knew, just knew, that there must be more to life than what he was experiencing, I felt a deep kinship with Him. I had the same kinds of questions and strong need to find the answers to life starting at the age of 10. Even at that young age, I knew that everything in life, all questions, lead directly to religion. I just didn't know WHAT religion. My parents didn't have any religion and seemed uninterested in the whole area. I didn't know why I was this way, but the need to find a religion; needing a guiding force in my life grew very strong in me. First I tried Christianity. I went to Sunday school with a childhood friend for about two months. I learned all about Jesus and what the Bible teaches about his life. After two months, and an argument with the Sunday school teacher, I had had enough (Yes, I started arguing religion at 11-years-old! And still haven't stopped! Hehehe..). It did not make any sense to me whatsoever that a `Father' would allow the death of his `Son' for the sins of the world. Even at 11-years-old, I could see plainly that Christians had entirely the wrong idea as to the meaning of life; and that what Christianity taught me did not answer any of my questions; actually, it just raised more questions! My Sunday school teacher told me that I needed to have `faith' in those things I didn't understand. In other words, I needed to be unthinking and accepting of anything told to me for the rest of my life, with the blind hope that I will be rewarded for this ignorance when I die. I said, "No Thank You" and rejected Christianity forever (But I never rejected Jesus or the pure teachings of Jesus: Love, Forgiveness, Gentleness, and `Finding the Kingdom of Heaven Within'). On and off, I read about different world religions and found myself most attracted to Asian poetry and philosophy. I was especially drawn to Taoism and Buddhism. I chose Taoism through most of high school because it didn't require meditation. I didn't think I could do meditation. I thought I would `feel silly' and if anyone found out they would make fun of me. But Taoism only made me feel calm and peaceful while I was reading books about it, when I put the books down, feelings of doubt, insecurity, fear, and anger would come rushing back into my mind. After three years of this in high school. I decided Taoism wouldn't work for me either; I needed to try to meditate and become a Buddhist. I started meditation shortly after I started college. You know, I wasn't born into Buddhism, I only knew about it what I had read. And I could clearly read that you couldn't be a Buddhist unless you meditated. Meditation was the key to discovering what the Buddha taught. When I found out that there were Buddhists who did not meditate, I was shocked. I wondered if they even knew what Buddhism is. Honestly, I didn't think they did or do. Of everything I have read on Buddhism, if a person chooses not to meditate (in some form or another) and doesn't make a sincere effort to practice mindfulness, that person isn't a true Buddhist. I decided that if I was going to try out this religion, I was going to do it right or not at all. So I started to meditate. I felt silly at first, but I locked my bedroom door, didn't let my parents know what I was doing, and sat for just 10 minutes that first time. It was hard! I didn't realize how out of control my mind was until I sat down that first time. I did not like that at all. I swore to myself that I would keep doing meditation until I got my mind settled down so that I could gain some benefit. I saw that what the Buddha taught was true; MY MIND WAS OUT OF CONTROL! I gained many benefits starting almost immediately after I first started meditating. I gained the benefits of: less fear, calmness, openness, acceptance, non-jealousy, empathy, friendliness, and compassion. Now, I didn't become a perfect person, and the influence of other people can often get me off the Buddhist path, I was considerably a better person than I was before. Seeing that meditation gave me benefits that lasted long after I meditated, I concluded that Buddhism was the religion for me. The Buddha said for everyone to test for himself or herself what he taught. He didn't say to accept what he taught on blind faith, like the Christians told me I should do with their religion. By meditating, I experienced for myself the first two of his Noble Truths: 1. That Life is Suffering (I felt that since I was 10), 2. This suffering is caused by craving and desire (I discovered this more through meditation.). Even at this point in my meditative life, I have not experienced fully the next two Noble Truths of the Buddha: 3. This suffering can be eliminated; and 4. The way to end this suffering is by following the Eightfold Path. I don't know this first-hand to be true yet because I am not enlightened. I am still haunted by suffering caused by desire on a daily basis; but considerably less than before I started meditating. However, my thinking mind tells me that if the Buddha was correct about 1 and 2, then he is more than likely correct with 3 and 4. After all, just one and two got me a lot farther to finding the answers than any other religion had. I made the decision to become a Buddhist for the rest of my life and to experience first-hand the rest of the Buddha's teachings. I took refuge in the Triple Gem; The Buddha, The Dharma, and the Shanga. I guess I do have some faith; I have faith in the Buddha, his teachings, and what others, wiser than myself, teach me. The Buddha laid everything on the table and let me make my choice. I couldn't ask for a better religion than that. So, that is my story Jan. I hope you enjoyed it. If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to ask! Metta, James 19663 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN IV, 41/Right concentration (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Swee Boon I earlier gave a fairly general response to this post, but would like to follow up with some comments on specific passages you have quoted. --- "nidive " wrote: ... SB: Samatha (tranquility or jhana absorption) is not necessary for the development of insight or the arising of the path moment. But Right Concentration is necessary for the development of insight and the arising of the path moment. Jon: Yes, this is how I would see it, too. SB: Right Concentration should be understood as: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html Jon: An interesting passage. My paraphrase of it would be as follows: At any moment of insight into the impermanence (arising and falling away) of any of the fundamental phenomena (5 khandhas), right concentration is also being developed. I'd be interested to know if this is your reading also. Jon 19664 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Hi Christine & All, In addition to the references, commentary and B.Bodhi notes you gave (see in part at end of post), I think you’ll find it worthwhile to study the posts under Abhidhamma -its origins: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts In particular, please read the following posts which mention other references in addition and other relevant cross-references and information with regard to the First Council recital: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17027 (RobertK) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12658 (Sarah) ====================================================== I have read the comments and conclusions of just a few modern scholars such as those by Professor Watanabe which B.Bodhi referred to (on line if I remember). They draw on other sects or schools that of course do not accept the Pali Canon and its commentaries as being authoritative in all regards, hence the divisions and the reconvening of the Councils in the early days as well. In the end, it’s a personal matter, and everyone is free to pursue what they find of most value. As others have mentioned, doubts and confusions will never be removed by 'external' or 'historical' references, but nonetheless, let me just add some comments made by U Narada, the translator of the Patthana (Conditional Relations -5th book of Abhidhamma Pitaka) into English as well as The Guide and also the third book, the Dhatukatha (Discourse on Elements): QUOTE ***** "The Abhidhamma was in existence during The Buddha’s time. This can be proved from the following passages in the Book of Discipline, vol 111: a)"p.415 "Not given leave means: without asking (for permission). Should ask a question means: if, having asked for leave in regard to Suttanta, she asks about discipline or about Abhidhamma, there is an offence of expiation. If, having asked for leave in regard to Abhidhamm, shes asks about Suttanta or about Discipline, there is an offence of expiation." b) "p.42 "There is no offence if, not desiring to disparage, he speaks, saying: "Look here, do you master suttantas or verses or what is extra to dhamma (i.e. Abhidhamma)and afterwards you will master discipline’; if he is mad, if he is the first wrong-doer." "These passages clearly show that Abhidhamma was in existence during The Buddha’s time because rules about it were laid down by Him. c)"Also in Middle Length Sayings 1, p.270.....Gosinga sal-wood.......Further dhamma...*....Mogallana is a talker on dhamma** Footnotes * "It is Abhidhamma and it is specifically stated in the Burmese Editions.... ** "Moggallana is called chief of those of psychic power, Ai,23. MA ii,256 explains that ‘abhidhamma-men, having come to knowledge of subtle points, having increased their vision, can achieve a supermundane state’. Non-abhidhamma-men get muddled between ‘own doctrine’(sakavaada) and ‘other doctrine’ (paravaada)." d)"Again, at the time The Buddha returned to Sankassanagara from Tavatimsa, the realm of 33 gods, Sariputta, in Sariputta Sutta, unttered the following in praise of The Buddha: "Erst have I never seen Nor heard of one with voice So sweet as his who came From Tusita to teach." (Suttanipata verse No 955, transl by E.M. Hare, p.139) ...... "This verse is also found in Mahaniddesa (Sixth Synod, p.386), where there is a detailed commentary on it. The following is the commentary on the first line: "At the time The Buddha, after having resided for the period of Lent on the Pandukambala Stone at the foot of the Coral tree in Tavatimsa, came down to Sankassanagara.......... "When Sariputta, based on the methods given by The Buddha, preached Abhidhamma to his pupils, The Buddha not only stated that He had expounded the Abhidhamma in Tavatimsa but also narrated this Sariputta Sutta to be left behind as evidence of having done so for the later generations. The Mahaniddesa was included in the Three Councils.
e) "Besides, Peta-vatthu (Sixth Synod Edn p 159) states: 1) "At that time The Buddha, the Exalted One, was residing on the Pandukambala Stone at the foot of the Coral tree in Tavatimsa (for expounding the Abhidhamma)........ f) "Moreover, in the Buddhavamsa, it is stated in:- 1)Dipankara Buddhavamsa: "At the time when Dipankara buddha expounded the dhamma in Tavatimsa, 90,000 crores of devas and brahmas realised the four Noble Truths by path-knolwedge on three occasions." < simialar references for 2)Mangala Buddhavamsa and 3)Sobhita Buddhavamsa> 4) Dhammadassi Buddhavamsa: "At the time when Dhammadassi Buddha returned to the human world after expounding Dhamma in Tavatimsa, 100 crores of devas and brahmas assembled for the second time." .......... "The Abhidhamma, which deals with realities, is the province of Omniscience, but for those who are of the opinion that it was not expounded by The Buddha and yet cannot ascribe it to anyone else, the above extracts are given to prove definitely that it was expounded by The Buddha. This should clear up all doubts about the matter. (According to the commentary, the word ‘dhamma’ in the above extracts denotes Abhidhamma - Dhammanti Abhidhamma - as there is no other teaching besides Abhidhamma that could be expounded.)" ***** I hope this helps. I have most the texts given so I can add more details if requested. I’m also happy to discuss any articles, such as the reference B.Bodhi gave in more detail. I'll be glad to hear any further feedback. Metta, Sarah ------- Christine: >>In looking up this sutta, I found it in MN 69 Gulissani sutta (p572) "A forest-dwelling bhikkhu should apply himself to the higher Dhammaand the higher Discipline." [note 693] This seemed a clear reference to Abhidhamma, but in reading the note,and a subsequent reference to another note, I am not so sure. Note 693 says: "abhidhamma abhivinaya. MA says that he should apply himself tolearning the text and commentary to the Abhidhamma Pitaka andthe 'Vinaya Pitaka. This is clearly anachronistic. On Abhidhamma inthe context of the suttas, see note 362. Although there is nocorresponding body of literature called "Abhivinaya," it seemsprobable the word refers to a systematic and analytical approach tothe study of the Vinaya, perhaps that embeded in the Sutta-vibhangaof the Vinaya Pitaka." Note 363 appears in the MN 32 Mahagosinga Sutta (p. 307): "Here, friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the higherDhamma [n. 362] and they question each other, and each beingquestioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talkrolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu couldilluiminated this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood.">> ============================================== 19665 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on AN IV, 170 Swee Boon --- "nidive " wrote: ... SB: Regarding the second type of arahant: "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Ven. Henepola states that: ----------------------------------------------- The commentarial exegesis of this passage (found in the Majjhima Nikaya commentary) explains the procedure for developing serenity preceded by insight thus: Here, someone contemplates with insight the five aggregates of clinging as impermanent, etc. without having produced the aforesaid kinds of serenity (jhanic access and jhanic absorption); this is insight. With the completion of insight there arises in him mental one-pointedness having as object the renunciation of the phenomena produced therein; this is serenity. Thus first comes insight, afterwards serenity. In case it should be suspected that the second type of meditator still attains mundane jhana after developing insight, the subcommentary to the passage points out: "the mental one-pointedness he gains is right concentration of the supramundane path (magga- samma-samadhi) and its object, called 'renunciation' (vavassagga), is nibbana. The Anguttara subcommentary explicitly identifies the second meditator with the vipassanayanika: "He develops serenity preceded by insight': this is said with reference to the vipassanayanika". ----------------------------------------------- Jon: I have a comment here. I of course find the commentarial passage very interesting. But I would not characterise what is quoted here as a 'procedure for developing' serenity preceded by insight. I think it is more a matter-of-fact description of the serenity that accompanies insight attainment or the mind-states that follow insight attainment (either the fruition moment (phala-citta) that immediately follows the path moment (magga citta), or subsequent cittas that are tranquil by virtue of the absence of the kilesas that have been eradicated by the path-attainment). Just to add to the general picture, a note to the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation (NDB) quotes the commentary as saying: "This refers to one who by his natural bent first attains to insight and then, based on insight, produces concentration (samadhi)." and the Tika as saying: "This is one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassana-yanika)." So, to anticipate your Question (1) below, there is no reference here to mundane jhana, as I read the commentarial material. SB: Question (1): Does the translation of "tranquility" in Anguttara Nikaya IV.170, refer to the "full mental absorption" of both the mundane jhana and the supramundane path? How is this translation of "tranquility" different from that in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html Or am I too nitty-picky on these details? Sometimes it's pretty frustrating. Jon: No, you are not being too nitty-picky at all, and yes, I agree it's frustrating. However, it needs to be studied carefully and in considerable detail in order to be understood. Unfortunately, only selected parts of the commentaries are available to us in English. From that, though, it seems clear that the meaning depends very much on the context and could be any one or more of the following in a given case: mundane jhana, mundane access concentration, right concentration of the supramundane path (i.e., at moment of magga citta), or right concentration of the mundane path (i.e., at moment of insight). Perhaps we can look at the other suttas individually. I hope this helps (but sympathize with any continuing frustration). Jon 19666 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > What I would like to understand is what in your opinion is > the > difference between being a Buddhist and not being a Buddhist. As I > understand > the position you express in the following, there is no path of > practice; > whatever happens, happens - period. > > With metta, > Howard First I would like to make a couple of modifications/corrections to my answer to your previous post. I said that satipatthana was the one thing that 'alone results in the subsequent arising of kusala conditions which eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, etc ...'. Actually, satipatthana is itself the kusala that 'leads to the arising of liberating wisdom, etc ...' (I slightly misread the passage from your post that I was responding to). As to the volitional or otherwise nature of the 2 factors of repeated hearing and reflecting on the teachings, I said 'neither of these is a volitional activity anyway'. What I meant, and should have said, was that neither is a *necessarily* volitional activity. I did not mean to suggest that these were never volitional activities. My apologies for any confusion. Now to your 2 questions above. 1. 'What in your opinion is the difference between being a Buddhist and not being a Buddhist?' Quite clearly it would be that fact that for a person who has not in this lifetime heard the teachings, there can be no direct awareness of/insight into the true nature of a presently arising dhamma/fundamental phenomenon. No matter to what extent that skill may have been developed in previous lifetimes, it always requires the renewed exposure to the teachings to manifest, such is the depth and intricacy of the truths to which the teachings relate. For the person who has heard and understood the teachings in this lifetime, there can be satipatthana/insight. I would see this as the key difference because it encompasses or points towards all that is unique to the Buddha's teaching. At moments of satipatthana/insight there is: - panna of a level that if further developed will eventually lead to the eradication of all kilesa - the effort/energy that is the guarding of the sense-doors or the abandoning of arisen kilesa, as appropriate, and hence the abandoning of the hindrances - the concentration that is necessary for panna to arise and perform its function - some appreciation, at however weak a level, of one of the 3 characteristics of all conditioned phenomena (anicca/dukkha/anatta) which, if developed, will eventually lead to the realisation of the Four Noble Truths and also any other necessary mundane path factors (the first 3 of the above factors are of course mundane samma-ditthi, mundane samma-vayama/the 4 samma-padhanas, and mundane samma-samadhi). Moments of satipatthana/insight are the highest respect that can be paid to the Buddha/the Triple Gem by one not yet enlightened. Likewise, moments at which are being developed the necessary conditions for satipatthana/insight to arise are also moments of paying respect to the Triple Gem (or, if you like 'being a Buddhist' -- although that is not a term I would use). 2. 'As I understand [your position], there is no path of practice; whatever happens, happens - period.' If that was my position, then it would be in defiance of the principle of cause and result. So obviously, it is not my position ;-)) I am wondering if you are drawn to the conclusion of 'no path of practice' because I have said I do not see conventional volition as having a particular role in the practice. I would like to have a closer look at this issue of 'volition'. I think anyone who has an appreciation of the teachings and who sees the value in developing the path has all the conventional volition that is needed to do whatever they see as necessary to achieve that. And conversely, without that appreciation a person would not have the 'volition' to develop the path. So the key factor is the appreciation of the urgency, rather than the 'will to do'. In fact, if you think about it, the better a person appreciates the urgency of the task, the more 'innate' volition/energy there is and the less conventional volition/exertion is needed. We can see this quite easily, for example, in young kids learning their lessons. The less gifted ones have to exert much more effort, be more 'volitional', than the smarter ones to learn the same things. This apparent paradox is easily explained in dhamma terms by the fact that the path-factor that is energy/effort is accumulated, along with the path-factor that is wisdom, with each and every moment of insight that occurs. This means that the more that understanding into the true nature of dhammas has been accumulated, the greater also the accumulated energy/effort for that skill, and consequently the more natural the development/'practice' can be. It is this 'innate' effort/energy that is the key factor, rather than conventional volition or effort. I hope this makes my position a little clearer ;-)) Jon 19667 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Manual of Abh., new book. : Atthayojanaa? Dear Nina, Jon, Sarah and Dhamma friends How are you? And, Happy New Year! Nina asked: "Jon, what is the atthayojana?" Jon replied: "I haven't a clue, I'm afraid! This is going back some 20 to 25 years now" Suan came in. Atthayojana(a) is a kind of textual dictionary. When we think about a dictionary, we usually get an idea of an alphabetical list of words and their definitions. Not so with an atthayojanaa! An atthayojanaa provides words and their definitions, but instead of arranging them in the alphbetical order, follows the order of each and every sentence found in a text, defining everything found in each sentence all the way to the end of the text. In short, an atthayojanaa is a sentential and textual dictionary. A reader of an atthayojanaa should have learnt Pali first to get the most out of it. Although an atthayojanaa can be used as a translation of the original text, it is cumbersome to read so if you do not know Pali grammar. Atthayojanaas are written to serve as study aids for students and teachers of Pali language. They are also called nissayas (reliable things). When you have a Pali text and its atthayojanaa or nissaya, you no longer need to look up a dictionary for new unknown words. You just read your atthayojanaa at the right places corresonding to wherever you are in the original text. Atthyojanaas or Nissayas provide the most convenient way of learning syntax as well as new words in an original Pali text. With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: 19668 From: m. nease Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Kamma (was: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi Eddie Lou, Great post! That is, I agree with everything in it. So much truth underlying the religion. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Eddie Lou To: Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Kamma (was: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) > I am a Buddhist from birth thru family upbringing. > > A Buddhist in name only and was only later totally > surprised by the whole underlying explanation and > categorization of almost all phenomena. > > It looks like represent the model of the truth I am > looking for. The analysis of many phenomena is simply > overhelming, clicks quite well and in itself is a > total marvel. > > The amazing thing is it has been around more than > 2,500 years and still it is not discovered or simply, > deliberately ignored. > > Science has still a lot... no tons and tons to catch > up with it. Then it may concur and coincide with it > and that is - if science is swayed away from its > correct course. Look at Galileo's case. > > Do not get me wrong. I am and still will be skeptical > of > Buddhism and that is called for by Buddha himself, who > said - Do not believe just because someone says it is > true. As a side note: Gotama Buddha is but only one of > many Fully enlightened Buddha's. There are even more > 'Not Fully enlightened Buddha's, who also of course > reached Nibbana (or Nirvana). > > Thanks. > > Eddie Lou > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Hi Eddie, > > > > I think this may have been your first message on DSG > > (sometimes I'm not > > sure;-)). Anyway, welcome either way and thanks for > > posting some > > interesting comments: > > > > --- Eddie Lou wrote: > > > > > All based on some kind of Karmic energy level > > still to > > > be discovered by science. > > > > > all our action (kamma) come into played and > > everything > > > is accountable and no administrator all automatic > > as > > > in the law of conservation of energy or other > > physical > > > laws. > > ..... > > This reminded me of some further comments U Narada > > makes in "Guide to > > Conditional Relations" based on commentary notes to > > the Patthana, > > concerning kamma condition. 'Asynchronous kamma' > > refers to "the volition > > which produces a result at a different instant of > > time" as opposed to > > conascent kamma or cetana which does not bring > > results. > > > > ".....Although an asynchronous faultless or > > faulty > > volition arises for one thought-moment and then > > ceases, this is not the > > end of it. For a special force is left behind in > > the mind's successive > > continuity so that at some time in the future, the > > appropriate result of > > that volition will be produced when the proper > > conditions are > > satisfied............." > > > > He gives a helpful example from the > > Paticcasamuppada-vibhanga commentary: > > > > "A person borrows money from another. This act of > > borrowing is finalised > > and ceases as soon as the money is received by the > > borrower. But because > > the money was borrowed, there is the indebtedness > > to repay the loan > > either in a lump sum or in instalments. The > > borrower has to abide by his > > promise to repay and this cannot be avoided by any > > means. The main > > concern here is not whether there has been the past > > act of borrowing or > > not, but the responsibility to repay the loan. Only > > when the whole amount > > has been paid will there be relief from this > > responsibility. > > > > In a similar way, when an act of kamma is performed, > > the kamma, before it > > ceases, leaves behind a special force of > > asynchronous kamma condition > > which will, at some time in the future, produce an > > appropriate result when > > the conditions for its arising are satisfied. And > > as long as the result > > is not produced this indebtedness to kamma in the > > round of rebirths is > > ever present. The main concern here is not whether > > there has been the past > > act of kamma or not, but the indebtedness which will > > surely produce a > > result. But once a result is produced, the > > indebtedness to kamma no longer > > holds and no other result will be brought about > > because of this particular > > kamma. But if there is no opportunity for a result > > to be produced, ie > > kamma is no longer effective (ahosi kamma), then the > > force of volition > > ceases." > > > > Later we read: > > > > "There is no place where materiality and mentality > > are stored for their > > continual arising and ceasing in succession. Just > > as when a match is > > struck a flame appears from nowhere and then > > disappears, so also, when > > object and base coincide consciousness and mental > > factors arise from > > nowhere, last for a thought-moment and then cease > > and vanish altogether. > > In this condition, volition, which is also an > > ultimate reality, also > > arises and ceases in the same fashion. > > > > "However, the force, which is left behind after > > volition ceases, is not > > destroyed and may be present for countless worlds in > > the successive > > continuity of a being, bound by craving, conceit and > > wrong views, to > > produce a result suddenly. The result cannot be > > foreseen and seems to be > > spontaneous. Indeed these forces give strange > > results. As instances, all > > of a sudden 1) a poor man wins a lottery and becomes > > rich and 2) > > presidents, prime ministers and national leaders are > > assassinated or > > gaoled." > > ***** > > Hope to hear more from you Eddie and if you'd care > > to add any info about > > yourself, where you live or about your interest in > > Buddhism, we'd all be > > glad to hear. > > > > With metta, > > > > Sarah > > ====== 19669 From: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/16/03 12:35:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > I don't understand how pannatta is the object of jhana. What does that > mean? Is the object of jhana a word or idea attached to a visualization > or 'sensualization' (as with touch in breath meditation)? > > In Way 50 (Satipatthana Commentary) there is the following: > > "It is said that a young bhikkhu went with a novice to get wood for > tooth-cleaners. The novice getting out of the road proceeded in front to > a place in search of wood and saw a corpse. Meditating on it he produced > the first absorption, and making the factors of the absorption a basis > for developing insight realized the first three fruitions of > arahantship, while examining the conformations [sankhare sammasanto], > and stood having laid hold of the subject of meditation for realizing > the path of full arahantship." > > L: What would be the role of pannatta in this jhana? Would there be a > visualization or similar dream-like experience? What are "the > conformations"? Thanks for your help. > > Larry > > ps: I have read several accounts of children entering absorption by > focusing on their names. Is this jhana? > > ============================= I'm sure Htoo will explain his meaning. One thing that occurs to me is that the initial meditation objects used to get one *into* an absorptive state, are pa~n~natti (such as the breath "as a whole" and not the individual rupic aspects of it, circular images, repeated sound-patterns such as mantras, candle flames, etc), the direct purpose not being insight, but concentration and calm. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19670 From: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN IV, 41/Right concentration (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Hi, Jon (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 2/16/03 7:03:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Swee Boon > > I earlier gave a fairly general response to this post, but would like > to follow up with some comments on specific passages you have quoted. > > --- "nidive " wrote: > ... > SB: > Samatha (tranquility or jhana absorption) is not necessary for the > development of insight or the arising of the path moment. > But Right Concentration is necessary for the development of insight > and the arising of the path moment. > > Jon: > Yes, this is how I would see it, too. > > SB: > Right Concentration should be understood as: > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? > There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising &falling > away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such > its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its > origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their > origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its > origination, such its disappearance.' > This is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html > > Jon: > An interesting passage. My paraphrase of it would be as follows: > At any moment of insight into the impermanence (arising and falling > away) of any of the fundamental phenomena (5 khandhas), right > concentration is also being developed. > > I'd be interested to know if this is your reading also. > > Jon > ============================ This certainly presents "right concentration" as concentrating on the flow of dhammas together with the observing of exactly *what* is arising at any time, and seeing the arising and the falling away. There is no doubt about it. There are other places where, with just as little doubt, the Buddha explicitly defines right concentration as the 1st four jhanas. In fact, he explicitly talks about the 4th jhana, the jhana characterized by equanimity, to be the state of perfect malleability and flexibility of mind for dhammic investigation, and this last may be what can lead us out of an apparent contradiction. Of course, one answer is that the Buddha considers the term 'right concentration' to be somewhat flexible. But another is that he considers both definitions to be correct and non-contradictory. There are suttas in which the ability to peruse the flow of dhammas remains unabated in the jhanas. (I quoted one once, but I forget which sutta it was. But one sutta suggestive of what I am saying is the Anupada Sutta which can be found at the following site: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/111-anupa da-e.htm) In that sutta, many ordinary-state abilities are said to remain even up through the jhana of no-thingness. With regard to that the sutta states the following: <> One other post I wrote once along the current lines said the following: <> Also, there are suttas in which the Buddha, himself, or, more correctly, the Bodhisatta, while "in" the 4th jhana, turned his attention to beings passing out of the world and into the world, turned his attention to past lives of his, and finally turned his attention to the uprooting of def ilements. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19671 From: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/16/03 8:27:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Jon - > > > > What I would like to understand is what in your opinion is > >the > >difference between being a Buddhist and not being a Buddhist. As I > >understand > >the position you express in the following, there is no path of > >practice; > >whatever happens, happens - period. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > First I would like to make a couple of modifications/corrections to > my answer to your previous post. I said that satipatthana was the > one thing that 'alone results in the subsequent arising of kusala > conditions which eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, > etc ...'. Actually, satipatthana is itself the kusala that 'leads to > the arising of liberating wisdom, etc ...' (I slightly misread the > passage from your post that I was responding to). > > As to the volitional or otherwise nature of the 2 factors of repeated > hearing and reflecting on the teachings, I said 'neither of these is > a volitional activity anyway'. What I meant, and should have said, > was that neither is a *necessarily* volitional activity. I did not > mean to suggest that these were never volitional activities. My > apologies for any confusion. > > Now to your 2 questions above. > > 1. 'What in your opinion is the difference between being a Buddhist > and not being a Buddhist?' > > Quite clearly it would be that fact that for a person who has not in > this lifetime heard the teachings, there can be no direct awareness > of/insight into the true nature of a presently arising > dhamma/fundamental phenomenon. No matter to what extent that skill > may have been developed in previous lifetimes, it always requires the > renewed exposure to the teachings to manifest, such is the depth and > intricacy of the truths to which the teachings relate. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Then you disbelieve in paccekabuddhas it would seem. --------------------------------------------------------- > > For the person who has heard and understood the teachings in this > lifetime, there can be satipatthana/insight. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Mmm, yes. There can be. There also might not be. What makes the difference? What past events make the difference? Also, is hearing and understanding sufficient? Are not actions taken for the development of mindfulness and concentration needed? The Buddha seems to have recommended them. ------------------------------------------------------- I would see this as the> > key difference because it encompasses or points towards all that is > unique to the Buddha's teaching. At moments of satipatthana/insight > there is: > - panna of a level that if further developed will eventually lead to > the eradication of all kilesa > - the effort/energy that is the guarding of the sense-doors or the > abandoning of arisen kilesa, as appropriate, and hence the abandoning > of the hindrances > - the concentration that is necessary for panna to arise and perform > its function > - some appreciation, at however weak a level, of one of the 3 > characteristics of all conditioned phenomena (anicca/dukkha/anatta) > which, if developed, will eventually lead to the realisation of the > Four Noble Truths > and also any other necessary mundane path factors (the first 3 of the > above factors are of course mundane samma-ditthi, mundane > samma-vayama/the 4 samma-padhanas, and mundane samma-samadhi). ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Why do moments of satipatthana/insight arise? Merely from hearing and understanding the dhamma? And, again, what about the paccekabuddhas? ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Moments of satipatthana/insight are the highest respect that can be > paid to the Buddha/the Triple Gem by one not yet enlightened. > > Likewise, moments at which are being developed the necessary > conditions for satipatthana/insight to arise are also moments of > paying respect to the Triple Gem (or, if you like 'being a Buddhist' > -- although that is not a term I would use). > > 2. 'As I understand [your position], there is no path of practice; > whatever happens, happens - period.' > > If that was my position, then it would be in defiance of the > principle of cause and result. So obviously, it is not my position > ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: When I say path of *practice*, I am referring to a (conventionally) volitionally adopted program of training and cultivation. Are you saying that listening to and reading and thinking over the Dhamma is the entirety of that? ----------------------------------------------------- > > I am wondering if you are drawn to the conclusion of 'no path of > practice' because I have said I do not see conventional volition as > having a particular role in the practice. I would like to have a > closer look at this issue of 'volition'. > > I think anyone who has an appreciation of the teachings and who sees > the value in developing the path has all the conventional volition > that is needed to do whatever they see as necessary to achieve that. > And conversely, without that appreciation a person would not have the > 'volition' to develop the path. So the key factor is the > appreciation of the urgency, rather than the 'will to do'. > > In fact, if you think about it, the better a person appreciates the > urgency of the task, the more 'innate' volition/energy there is and > the less conventional volition/exertion is needed. We can see this > quite easily, for example, in young kids learning their lessons. The > less gifted ones have to exert much more effort, be more > 'volitional', than the smarter ones to learn the same things. > > This apparent paradox is easily explained in dhamma terms by the fact > that the path-factor that is energy/effort is accumulated, along with > the path-factor that is wisdom, with each and every moment of insight > that occurs. This means that the more that understanding into the > true nature of dhammas has been accumulated, the greater also the > accumulated energy/effort for that skill, and consequently the more > natural the development/'practice' can be. It is this 'innate' > effort/energy that is the key factor, rather than conventional > volition or effort. > > I hope this makes my position a little clearer ;-)) > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: It does. Yet we are far from close on this. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19672 From: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:43am Subject: mantra Hi Howard and all, I've been thinking about the use of concept as object of jhana this morning and it seems to me this is precisely mantra. I think the Visuddhimagga makes clear that sensory in-put, even in visualization, is only the background of the object, which is a concept (word and idea). People may not be familiar with this aspect of mantra but it is pretty much what I was taught in a Tibetan context. So, even though there is a lot of emphasis on tranquilization of the breath, when breath is used as an object, one shouldn't dwell on the subtleties of touch. The main object is the word "breath", or something similar, and the idea behind it. I think cultivating this is what is meant by vitakka and vicara, vitakka being the word and vicara being the idea. Ideally this word should evoke a sense of profundity. That is to say, unlimited importance and vast pervasiveness. Obviously this would depend on one's accumulations. I think this accords with reports of children focusing on their own name and slipping into samadhi. Also it may explain why there is so much difficulty with jhana these days. Not enough child-like innocence and sense of security. Larry 19673 From: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] mantra Hi, Larry - A word/sound pattern is only one possibility for meditation subject, and, in fact, I think it may *not* have been among the 40 that the Buddha listed. It is the case that my one unambiguously jhanic experience, which had elements of 5th and 6th jhana, happens to have been induced by mantra meditation. With meditation on the body (on the breath and bodily sensations) I often reach access concentration, and *possibly* the 1st jhana on occasion, but it was only via mantra meditation that I ever got beyond this level. (I seem to have an affinity towards sound.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/16/03 11:45:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard and all, > > I've been thinking about the use of concept as object of jhana this > morning and it seems to me this is precisely mantra. I think the > Visuddhimagga makes clear that sensory in-put, even in visualization, is > only the background of the object, which is a concept (word and idea). > People may not be familiar with this aspect of mantra but it is pretty > much what I was taught in a Tibetan context. So, even though there is a > lot of emphasis on tranquilization of the breath, when breath is used as > an object, one shouldn't dwell on the subtleties of touch. The main > object is the word "breath", or something similar, and the idea behind > it. I think cultivating this is what is meant by vitakka and vicara, > vitakka being the word and vicara being the idea. Ideally this word > should evoke a sense of profundity. That is to say, unlimited importance > and vast pervasiveness. Obviously this would depend on one's > accumulations. I think this accords with reports of children focusing on > their own name and slipping into samadhi. Also it may explain why there > is so much difficulty with jhana these days. Not enough child-like > innocence and sense of security. > > Larry > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19674 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:43am Subject: FW: [Pali] Re: Migajala Sutta Dear friends, the Migajalasutta was discussed here before. I had a discussion with Frank, and you may be interested to read this. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 10:03:17 +0100 Aan: Onderwerp: Re: [Pali] Re: Migajala Sutta I wrote before: There are visible objects cognizable by the eye.... The same is said with regard to the other doorways. I can't hear enough of this, because I am too forgetful, I am attached to people, but this is conditioned. When visible object (colour) is experienced, sound is not experienced, and there is no thinking of the world full of people. We are alone for a short moment. In a way we are momentary recluses, because understanding must lead to detachment. But this is a long process. It is a learning process, but we do not have to go out of our way to begin now. The objects of understanding are near, right at hand: visible object, sound, lobha, dosa, etc. They all appear now. First objects have to be seen as only elements, so that personality belief can be eradicated. This happens when the first stage of enlightenment is attained, and finally at the realization of arahatship all craving is left behind. All those who develop the eightfold Path are leading a life that is brahmacariyaa. In the Commentary to the satipa.t.thaanasutta (Ven Soma), After this a discussion Frank wrote to me, see below (sorry, I snipped his post already, not doing justice to his words). Dear Frank, I understand what you mean, stressing a sense of urgency. A sense of urgency may be rather defective, but it can grow naturally by the development of pa~n~naa. People follow their inclinations, eschewing all the chitchat of company. I understand your accumulations very well. I prefer hearing the voices of the forest to hearing traffic noise. However, because of conditions we are in different cricumstances. We can verify that seeing here is no different from seeing over there. Seeing shows its characteristic, it experiences through the eyesense just what is visible, nothing else. Visible object is the only ruupa that can be seen. Seeing, hearing, they arise all the time, and mostly lobha arises in their train, but we do not notice this. It is our nature to cling to seeing and visible object, but whatever appears can be understood as a conditioned dhamma. In each sutta, be it the Migajalasutta, the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint, the Buddha speaks personally to us. He reminds us of our defilements at this moment. Remember, every sutta pertains to this moment. He exhorts us to develop understanding of "the all". Seeing is an experience, it is different from visible object and hardness which do not know anything. Everything can be the object of understanding, because whatever appears, it is only an element experienced through one of the six doors. Nina op 14-02-2003 03:47 schreef Frank Kuan op fcckuan@y...: (snipped) If we examine the whole body of pali > suttas, it's very clear to me that the training > process involves "abandoning company" for the vast > majority of the time. 19675 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cula Sotapanna, Vipassana practice Hi Smallchap, op 15-02-2003 08:30 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: > Nina, when you said second stage of vipassana ~naa.na, I believe you > mean it to be udayabbaya-nana? N: No. Paccaya- pariggaha-nana, knowing nama and rupa as conditioned realities. This is the second stage of tender insight, taruna vipassana~naa.na. S: > The author continued: > "The two knowledges, i.e. Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana and Paccya- > pariggaha-nana, are very important. They are the basic knowledges in > insight-meditations and they constitute the foundations for the > arising of ten vipassana-nanas in later stages. They are not included > in the vapassana-nanas because they do not concentrate on the three > characteristic marks (Tilakkhana) of existence. Nevertheless they > reveal the insight nature of the ultimate realities concerning nama > and rupa." N: Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana, Paccaya-> pariggaha-nana, and sammassana ~naa.na, these three are tender insight. Then the first stage of Principal Insight, Maha-vipassana, is udayabbayaanupassanaa ~naa.na, seeing the arising and falling away of realities. But in different texts the counting of stages is somewhat different. Most important is: also tender insight is insight, not thinking. True, in the course of insight the three characteristics are penetrated more and more, but insight has to begin with knowing what nama is, an experience, and what rupa is, a reality that does not experience anything. The stages are described not only in the Visuddhimagga, but also in the Path of Discrimination. S: "They are important because they eliminate [smallchap: I believe the > author meant temprary eliminate] the wrong or evil views (miccha- > ditthi) and strengthens the right view (samma-ditthi)" > > So it seems to me that if one takes to vipassana meditation > diligently, straigth away one is a cula-sotapanna? >N: No. S: You are right in saying that there is no use to want or wish for > something. One will get no where by mere wishing and wanting. N: That is the point, from beginning to end. It is most difficult to detect the subtle clinging to self, to my result. A. Sujin asked us, when in Bangkok: Do you like to have awareness? We can find the answer for ourselves. Even after the third stage of tender insight there are vipassana defilements. One gained more assurance, it causes happiness, but, here is a pitfall. One gets stuck, even a Cula Sotapanna. No further development. We may know in theory that nama such as seeing is different from rupa such as visible object, but what about now? They are so much together. Still they have different characteristics, only direct understanding can know their difference. When there are conditions for direct awareness of one object at a time, understanding can grow. Here also a subtle clinging can be in the way. We may think without words very quickly of different realities and takes this for insight. Pitfall again. It is most helpful to know what one does not know yet. I follow your words: life goes on as usual. Yes, until arahatship and after. Realities do not change, but there can be more and more understanding. If we behave unnaturally, how could we know realities as they naturally appear? You were asked: can you help others? Yes, it is possible to help others to understand what vipassana is, to drop illusions about understanding and the lack of it. Anyway, the development of understanding is very slow and we cannot expect a transformation of character. By the way, I liked the straightforeward conversation you had. People always ask, what to do? The conditions for sati and pa~n~naa:Listening, contemplating in daily life, discussing, asking questions, and developing each kind of kusala, but not for one's own sake. S: On the other hand, however, for one who is ready to enter the magga > and the phala, perhaps a (strong) desire to escape from samsara is > necessary? (The Elder Sangharakkhita, Visuddhi Magga Chapter I, 135) N: I cannot think much about this, too far away. In the course of insight development panna turns away from conditioned realities and inclines to nibbana, the unconditioned dhamma. It is the development of panna that leads on. You use desire, it could be desire for deliverance without clinging. 19676 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:43am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 25 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 25 We read in the ³Kassapamandiya Jåtaka²(no. 312): At that time while the Buddha was residing in the Jeta Grove he spoke about an aged monk, and he gave this explanation of the Dhamma, with the words beginning with ³should foolish youths...² (appikassapamandiya). A young nobleman at Såvatthi, tradition says, saw the danger of sense pleasures and received ordination at the hands of the Buddha. Within a short time he attained arahatship. After that, when his mother had died, he persuaded his father and younger brother to become monks and to take residence in the Jeta Grove. Near the beginning of the rainy season they took their residence in a village where the requisites were easily obtained, so that they could observe the rainy season there. When the rainy season was over they returned to the Jeta Grove. The youthful monk ordered the novice, his younger brother, to let the elderly monk first take a rest, and then to take him along quietly. He himself would go ahead to prepare beforehand the lodgings in the Jeta Grove. The elderly monk walked very slowly and the novice butted him as it were with his head in order to make him walk on. Then the elderly monk turned back and started anew from the same point, and this went on until sunset, and when they reached the Jeta Grove it was already dark. The young monk who was the elder brother waited for them until the evening, he took a torch and went to meet them. When he asked the reason why they came so slowly, the elderly monk who was the father told him what had happened. On that day the young monk could not pay his respects to the Buddha. The next day when that monk went to pay his respects to the Buddha, the Buddha knew that that monk had arrived on the previous day but had not come to pay his respects. Therefore, he blamed the elderly monk and he said that also in a past life he had acted likewise. We may think why the elderly monk who was the father was blamed, and not the novice who was the younger son. Who should have patience? We read about a story of the past: Formerly, in a past life, the Buddha was the Bodhisatta. He became an ascetic in the Himålaya country. The elderly monk at that time was the father of the Bodhisatta. Their habitual conduct was almost the same as in the present life. Thus, in the rainy season they left the Himålaya country and went near the border of a city, and when the fruits had ripened in the Himålaya country they returned there. At that time the Bodhisatta made the two hermits stow away their requisites [31], he gave his father a bath, washed and anointed his feet and massaged his back. He set out a pan of charcoal and when his father had recovered from his fatigue he sat down near him. He said: ³Father, young boys are just like earthen vessels, they are broken in a moment.² Thus, young people lack patience. We read that the Bodhisatta said: ³Once they are broken it is not possible to mend them. Young boys may be abusive or censure others, but old men should bear with them patiently.² In order to admonish his father Kassapa, he said these stanzas: Should foolish youth scold, revile or blame, The wise who have paññå should endure All the wrongs done by young boys... Even wise men may quarrel, But quickly they can become closely united again. But fools part asunder like untempered clay, They cannot calm down their hate.² Footnote: 31. This happened, according to the Jåtaka, after the father and his son had arrived at the hermitage, where the Bodhisatta had gone before. 19677 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:43am Subject: FW: Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, Co ,no 5 ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 10:53:55 +0100 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, Co ,no 5 Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, Co ,no 5 Sutta passage: Addasaa kho aayasmaa saariputto aayasmanta.m Raahula.m a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisinna.m palla'nka.m aabhujitvaa uju.m kaaya.m pa.nidhaaya parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa. Disvaana aayasmanta.m Raahula.m aamantesi : aanaapaanasati.m Raahula bhaavana.m bhaavehi, aanaapaanasati Raahula bhaavitaa bahuliikataa mahapphalaa hoti mahaanisa.msaa ti. The venerable Sariputta saw the venerable Rahula seated at the foot of that tree, cross- legged and body upright with mindfulness established before him. Having seen the venerable Rahula, he addressed him: "Cultivate the development of mindfulness on in and out breathing, Rahula. The development of mindfulness on in and out breathing, Rahula, is of great fruit and profit." Commentary: We read < Although the Blessed One saw that Rahula had returned he did not say to him:" Do not return, because it is the time for you to receive almsfood (bhikkaacaarakaalo)." Why? It is explained thus: It occurred to the Buddha :" Today Rahula will eat the food of Deathlessness (amatabhojana.m), namely, Mindfulness of the Body (kaayagataasati). It is said, Addasaa kho aayasmaa saariputto, when the Blessed One had gone, Sariputta who came afterwards saw him. > We read that Sariputta after the Buddha had gone on his almsround, left his dwellingplace, that he swept the place and threw away rubbish where necessary, and set out pots with drinking water. He went to the sick and asked, "Friend, what shall I bring you, what do you need?" He went to the young monks who were newly ordained and exhorted them, saying, "Rejoice, friend, be not discontented. The Teachings contain a practice that is most excellent in substance (abhiramatha aavuso maa ukka.n.thittha pa.tipattisaaraka.m Buddhasaasananti)." After he had acted thus, he went on almsround after all the (other) bhikkhus had gone. The text states: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mantra Hi Howard, I agree that samadhi could follow on objects other than mantra but I think Buddhaghosa's and or abhidhamma's insistance on concept as the object of jhana clearly points to mantra. But I think this is a matter more of concept rather than sound, at least for these two sources. Although I don't see how at least some tonal quality could not be present. I don't recall any particular emphasis on mantra in Patanjali aside from "Aum". Even this isn't just sound, and the sound itself is internalized. I think a sense of profundity is important. It has to invite surrender. But this is all just speculation on my part. I'm looking forward to field testing these theories. Larry 19679 From: robmoult Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:20pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Hi Christine, Missed ya! Sorry for not keeping in touch. I was very surprised to read in a recent post by Sarah that in his "Introduction to Conditional Relations", U Narada called the Abhidhamma "the word of the Buddha". I think that U Narada was taking some "artistic license". My understanding, from reading the Atthasalini, is that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma to the Gods in Tavatimsa Heaven for three months, in gratitude to his former mother. Each day, when it was time for His alms-round, He created a Buddha after His own image and willed that the created Buddha teach the Dhamma so much while the Buddha came to earth. After alms-round, the Buddha met Sariputta and told Sariputta that so much of the Dhamma had been taught during the interval. Effectively, the Buddha passed along a "Table of Contents" (The Matika?)and Sariputta (being so endowed with knowledge) filled in the rest for his 500 followers (who of course gained enlightenment). In summary, there are three versions of Abhidhamma: - Taught by the Buddha in Tavatimsa Heaven (long) - Taught by the Buddha to Sariputta (short) - Taught by Sariputta to 500 monks (medium, passed to us) If we take this account as fact, then the "Abhidhamma" (as we know it) was not the "word of the Buddha", but came from Sariputta. Nevertheless, the Tavatimsa heaven incident occured during the seventh vassa (rainy season retreat), so the Buddha would have been around for correct any mistakes made by Sariputta. The Abhidhamma must have been recited and retaught many times in the subsequent years while the Buddha was still alive. It doesn't really bother me that if Abhidhamma came to us via Sariputta. What is important to me is: - The Abhidhamma has a strong footing in the Suttas - The Abhidhamma does not contradict the Suttas - People find the approach taken in the Abhidhamma to be useful It definitely takes a certain type of mental disposition to appreciate the Abhidhamma and find it to be useful; a combination of buddhi-carita (intelligent nature) and vitakka-carita (ruminating or pondering nature). With our society's focus on education and science, I sense that the Abhidhamma is going to appeal to more and more people. In the Kalama Sutta, the Buddha warned us not to go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, nor upon tradition, nor upon rumor, nor upon scripture, nor upon surmise, nor upon axiom, nor upon specious reasoning, nor upon bias towards a notion pondered over, nor upon another's seeming ability, nor upon the consideration 'The monk is our teacher'. The Buddha encouraged us to try for ourselves and see what it truth. The words are not as important as the message. If we get caught up in the words, we become scholars. Being a scholar doesn't help us get rebirth in a good plane, nor does it help us escape from Samsara. Nothing wrong with being a scholar (Sariputta was one), but it is not enough. If we focus on the message, (hopefully) we translate this focus into action; study -> practice -> realization (pariyatti -> patipatti -> pativedha). These are my personal views and I would be interested in hearing yours (or views of others on the DSG). Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > What are the implications if the Abhidhamma is > considered to be a product of the Buddha's disciples? 19680 From: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:48pm Subject: Way 51, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four inds of Clear Comprehension, 1 Clear Comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 64 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html For making manifest this clear comprehension of resort the following set of four should be understood: In the Dispensation of the Buddha a certain bhikkhu on the journey out for alms takes along with him in the mind the subject of meditation, but on the journey back from the work of alms-gathering he does not bring it along with him, having become unmindful of it. Another does not take it along with him on the outward journey, but returns from the alms-tour with the subject of meditation in his mind. Still another neither takes it along with him on the outward journey nor returns with it on the journey home. And, lastly, there is the fourth kind of bhikkhu who both takes the subject of meditation along with him on the journey out for alms and brings it back with him on the journey home. Among these four kinds, there is a certain bhikkhu who lives thus: -- By day he cleanses his mind of things that becloud -- the hindrances [nivarana] -- through meditation on the ambulatory and in the sitting posture. By night, likewise, on the ambulatory and in the sitting posture, through meditation, in the first watch, and in the last watch, he cleanses his mind of things that becloud, after sleeping in the middle watch. Quite early in the day having done the duties connected with the terraces of the relic-shrine and the Bhodhi-tree -- sweeping and so forth -- he sprinkles the Bodhi-tree with water, places water for drinking and washing and attends to the Khandhaka duties beginning with the duties connected with the teacher and the preceptor. Thereafter, having looked to the needs of his body -- that is, after bestowing that attention on the body which consists of washing the face and so forth -- he enters his dwelling and practices the subject of meditation begun that day [tadahe mula bhutam kammatthanam], at several sittings [dve tayo pallanke usumam gahapento = during two or three sittings while the body happens to be put into a state of warming up]. [Tika] There two or three sittings = two or three sitting turns [dve tayo nisajjavare]. Warming up is said concerning the matter of causing warmth to be taken up twice or thrice [dve tini unhapanani sandhaya vuttam]. The word sitting [pallanka] means sitting by way of the thigh-bound or locked posture [urubaddha asana]. It is the posture called the lion-pose [sihasana] and the firm pose [thirasana]. It is the sitting down of one with the left foot crossed on to the right thigh and the right foot on to the left thigh, by way of interlocking, through the bending of the thighs (One sits in meditation not for a long time at a stretch. There are short intervals of relaxation through brief changes of posture when the body gets warm or uncomfortable in the cross-legged sitting pose.) When it is time to wander for alms, he having got up from the sitting meditation-pose, and takes his bowl and robe with just the thought of meditation uppermost in mind [kammatthana siseneva] leaves his dwelling, attending only to the thought of meditation [kammatthanam manasikarontova]. [T] "With just the thought of meditation uppermost in mind" = Just with the subject of meditation in the forefront of the mind [kammatthana mukheneva], keeping to the thought of meditation [kammatthanam avijahanto]. 19681 From: smallchap Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Smallchap and Sarah about vipassana practice HI Eddie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Lou wrote: > I heard it is very effective. I remember there is a > program in notorious Tihar prison in India > administered by Goenka (his mentor is Sayagyi U Ba > Khin) that shows great results in changing hard core > criminals' attitude altogether. I think I still have > the paper article (Asiaweek) but no computer scanner. smallchap: Vapassana meditation is about seeing conditioned things as they truely are, i.e. anicca, dukkha, anatta. It is much more than transforming the social behavior of prisoners. We practise it with a aim to attain the deathless, no less. > Maybe you want to share some of your 18 years of > vipassana experience and we can learn from it. smallchap: I feel that you can learn more from this article, The Essentials of Buddha-Dhamma in Practice, written by the teacher of my teacher, Sayagyi U Ba Khin, than to hear about my vipassana experience. The link is here: http://www.ubakhin.com/ubakhin/ESSENTIA.html Regards, smallchap 19682 From: smallchap Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cula Sotapanna, Vipassana practice Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > S: Nina, when you said second stage of vipassana ~naa.na, I believe you > > mean it to be udayabbaya-nana? > N: No. Paccaya- pariggaha-nana, knowing nama and rupa as conditioned > realities. This is the second stage of tender insight, taruna > vipassana~naa.na. S: Thanks for the clarification. > > The author continued: > > "The two knowledges, i.e. Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana and Paccya- > > pariggaha-nana, are very important. They are the basic knowledges in > > insight-meditations and they constitute the foundations for the > > arising of ten vipassana-nanas in later stages. They are not included > > in the vapassana-nanas because they do not concentrate on the three > > characteristic marks (Tilakkhana) of existence. Nevertheless they > > reveal the insight nature of the ultimate realities concerning nama > > and rupa." > N: Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana, Paccaya-> pariggaha-nana, and sammassana > ~naa.na, these three are tender insight. Then the first stage of Principal > Insight, Maha-vipassana, is udayabbayaanupassanaa ~naa.na, seeing the > arising and falling away of realities. But in different texts the counting > of stages is somewhat different. Most important is: also tender insight is > insight, not thinking. True, in the course of insight the three > characteristics are penetrated more and more, but insight has to begin with > knowing what nama is, an experience, and what rupa is, a reality that does > not experience anything. > The stages are described not only in the Visuddhimagga, but also in the Path > of Discrimination. S: Thanks for pointing out the Path of Descrimination to me. I shall look it up. > S: "They are important because they eliminate [smallchap: I believe the > > author meant temprary eliminate] the wrong or evil views (miccha- > > ditthi) and strengthens the right view (samma-ditthi)" > > > > So it seems to me that if one takes to vipassana meditation > > diligently, straigth away one is a cula-sotapanna? > >N: No. S: In this case, is it correct to say that one cannot attains udayabbayaanupassanaa-~naa.na before one attains Nama-rupa-pariccheda- ~naa.na, Paccaya-pariggaha-~naa.na, and sammassana~naa.na? > S: You are right in saying that there is no use to want or wish for > > something. One will get no where by mere wishing and wanting. > N: That is the point, from beginning to end. It is most difficult to detect > the subtle clinging to self, to my result. A. Sujin asked us, when in > Bangkok: Do you like to have awareness? We can find the answer for > ourselves. Even after the third stage of tender insight there are vipassana > defilements. One gained more assurance, it causes happiness, but, here is a > pitfall. One gets stuck, even a Cula Sotapanna. No further development. > We may know in theory that nama such as seeing is different from rupa such > as visible object, but what about now? They are so much together. Still they > have different characteristics, only direct understanding can know their > difference. When there are conditions for direct awareness of one object at > a time, understanding can grow. > Here also a subtle clinging can be in the way. We may think without words > very quickly of different realities and takes this for insight. Pitfall > again. It is most helpful to know what one does not know yet. S: Thank you for the reminders of the pitfalls. I appreciate it very much. > I follow your words: life goes on as usual. Yes, until arahatship and after. > Realities do not change, but there can be more and more understanding. If we > behave unnaturally, how could we know realities as they naturally appear? > You were asked: can you help others? Yes, it is possible to help others to > understand what vipassana is, to drop illusions about understanding and the > lack of it. Anyway, the development of understanding is very slow and we > cannot expect a transformation of character. > By the way, I liked the straightforeward conversation you had. > People always ask, what to do? The conditions for sati and > pa~n~naa:Listening, contemplating in daily life, discussing, asking > questions, and developing each kind of kusala, but not for one's own sake. S: My belief is, we have to be able to help ourselves, before we can help others. > S: On the other hand, however, for one who is ready to enter the magga > > and the phala, perhaps a (strong) desire to escape from samsara is > > necessary? (The Elder Sangharakkhita, Visuddhi Magga Chapter I, 135) > N: I cannot think much about this, too far away. S: Sorry! I got carried away. I shouldn't have mentioned it at all. Thanks for the reminder again. In the course of insight > development panna turns away from conditioned realities and inclines to > nibbana, the unconditioned dhamma. It is the development of panna that leads > on. You use desire, it could be desire for deliverance without clinging. Regards, smallchap 19683 From: Diny@ Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Smallchap and Sarah about vipassana practice Dear SmallChap , Thanks for sharing ur thoughts ,yes I did two 10 days camp, and I practice too but not like Work. regards , - Dinesh --- "smallchap " wrote: > Hi Dinesh, > > I do find that practising vipassana regularly helps in my mundane > chore. I am more efficient and more focus in the work I do, compare > to previouly before I practise vapassana. As far as attitude is > concerned, yes, there is a change. The urge to escape from samsara is > much stronger than before. > > I teach vapassana meditation too, after my teacher told me to do so > some 9 yers ago. So I suppose I have helped others as well. > > If the experience I described above (nothing to cry about)can help > you in anyway in wantung to practise vipassana, that is well and > good. I believe you know the purpose of pratising vapassanan > meditation. > > regards, > smallchap > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Diny@" > wrote: > > Hi Smallchap. > > > > I asked experience of Vipassana to share so that it can help us ( > like me ) to > > get charge. If you are practising for 18 yrs great , definately > life goes on > > usually for all , but after Vipassana did it help you in doing Good > Job, > > thinking attitude or is it same as it was before 18 yrs ?? > > > > About Transform i mean that did you help others too ??? > > > > metta > > - Dinesh > > > > > > --- Sarah wrote: 19684 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Swee Boon, --- "nidive " wrote: > > I quote from Conditions Chapter 11 by Nina, > > -------------------------------------- > As regards conascent kamma-condition, sahajåta kamma-paccaya, the > cetanås accompanying all 89 types of citta are conascent kamma- > condition for the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany as > well as for the rúpas produced by them. > > ... > > It (cetana) conditions the result in the form of vipåkacitta and > specific rúpas of the body by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. > > When one, for example, slanders, there is akusala kamma through > speech and this can produce akusala vipåka later on. The akusala > cetanå or kamma conditions the vipåkacitta which arises later on by > way of asynchronous kamma-condition. At the same time, the akusala > cetanå is related to the citta and cetasikas it accompanies and to > speech intimation (vacíviññatti), a rúpa produced by citta, by way > of conascent kamma-condition. > > THUS, CETANA IS IN DIFFERENT WAYS A CONDITION FOR OTHER PHENOMENA. > -------------------------------------- Thankyou for copying these extracts above. ..... > In short, "Sarah", "Swee Boon" and "Nina" are no different from > cetana (kamma). Just this is existence. There is no self to be found. ..... I agree that “there is no self to be found”, but I don’t understand how you reach the rest of your conclusion that “Sarah.....are no different from cetana”. Cetana is one reality and one condition amongst many. What we take for “Sarah” and “Swee Boon” are a combination of many different realities. I have an idea there is some mis-communication here. Also when you say “just this is existence”, I have no idea what it means. I agree that cetana “exists” and performs its various functions with no self to assist. The same can be said about other paramattha dhammas too. Perhaps you’d clarify. ..... > PS: I just failed my driving practical test at 5 pm and I feel > miserable. Why do I feel anxiety? ..... Attachment;-) ..... Does an arahant have any anxiety? ..... NO - no kilesa of any kind. ..... > Can an arahant fail his driving practical test? ..... ;-) I think it’s unlikely an arahant (must be a bhikkhu) would be taking a driving test. What do you think? If it helps, there are two things I have to accept I’ll never be good at in this life - one is driving and the other is cooking.... no accumulations to focus on the road or the stove ;-( As Nina said, there are other tests in life of greater significance. Metta, Sarah p.s I appreciate all your discussions on the fine points of the suttas. ======================================================================= 19685 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] hello Hi Prema, --- kitcchri@a... wrote: > Hello, and greetings to everyone on this list, > My name is Prema Dasa. I live in Lawrence Kansas. I am new to > buddhism and would like to learn more about it. ..... Thanks for joining us and introducing yourself:-) I sincerely hope we can all help a little. ..... >I have read some books > about > buddhism, and have an idea how to practice mindfullness meditaion. Some > time > ago I read a short biography of a Thai monk named Phra Ajaan Lee and was > very > impressed with his life and teachings, and I would like to learn more. > Thank > you very much for allowing me to join your group. ..... Thank you! If you'd like to share any reflections on what you found so impressive, that would be interesting. Also, please don't hesitate to ask any questions or start any thread of your own. If you find some threads too technical or have too much Pali in them, pls just ignore them while you're getting started here. You may also find it useful to refer to this simple Pali glossary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms Also, there are some posts under "New to Buddhism and new to the list" and also under "Abhidhamma - new" (or something similar) which may be useful in this section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts If you need any other assistance or recommended books, just ask. With metta, Sarah ====== > your friend, Prema > > > > > > > > > 19686 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Howard, Sorry for the delay - back to Moggallana’s death: > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My, quite an accomplishment I'd say! Torn from limb to limb with > bones > pounded down until as small as grains of sand - and then this pile of > flesh > and sand manages to go pay respects! Not quite believable, is it? ;-) Of > > course, Maha Moggalana was a master of psychic abilities - so perhaps he > did > a quick reassembly job! > ---------------------------------------------- S: ;-)Remember that on the first attempt by the thugs to kill him, he escaped through the keyhole and on the second attempt he broke through the roof of the house and soared into the air. Also, it was on account of jealousy over his abilities (and the rewards that came as a result) that they were so determined to kill him in the first place. We read that he was used to going to the heavenly realms to ask the deities about the good deeds they had performed and repeat these to humans and then he would go to the hell planes and find out what had been done to bring about such suffering. I think we’re bound to underestimate the abilities of the Great Theras like Moggallana and Sariputta as well as the omniscient powers of the Buddha, because we just cannot begin to comprehend them. With regard to this last incident of paying respect to the Buddha, I’m just checking the details now and quote: “Then thinking to themselves, “He is dead,” they tossed his bones behind a certain clump of bushes and went their way. The Elder thought to himself, “I will pay my respects to the Teacher before I pass into Nibbana.” Accordingly he swathed himself with meditation as with a cloth, made himself rigid, and soaring through the air, he proceeded to the Teacher, paid obeisance to the Teacher, and said to him. “reverend Sir, I am about to pass into Nibbana.” We then read that after paying his respects, he rose into the air, performed various miracles, preached the Law and then passed into parinibbana. ..... >> ----------------------------------------------------- S: > > He then spoke these Dhammapada verses 137 - 140: > > "Whosoever visits punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, > > Whosoever offends against those that are without offense, > > Such an one will right quickly come to one of ten states: > > > > He will incur cruel suffering, or infirmity or injury of the body, > > Or severe sickness, or loss of mind, > > > > Or misfortune proceeding from the king, or a heavy accusation, > > Or death of relatives, or loss of treasures, > > > > Or else the fire of lightning will consume his houses; > > upon dissolution of the body such a simpleton will go to Hell." > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ahh, but look at what the foregoing says! It says "Whosoever > visits > punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, Whosoever offends > against > those that are without offense, Such an one will right quickly come to > one of > ten states ..." ..... S: I understand your point;-) I understood it to mean ‘at the time’ or ‘in this life’. If we maliciously attack someone totally unprovoked, it will bring a heavy kammic result. In other words, I read it to mean ‘without offence at THE TIME of attack’, though we know from the rest of the passage, there is no result without offence having been performed sometime in the past. In other words, the stress here is on the seriousness of the deed. If there is an attack in self-defence, for example, it would not be as heinous as Maha Moggallana’s previous deed against his parents or that of the bandits against him in this lifetime. ..... (It refers, of course, to the Venerable having received > kammic retribution for his past misdeeds.) Note that this quoted > material > says that those who "deserve not punishment" (the venerable's parents in > the > earlier life in this case) can yet receive punishment, that "those that > are > without offense" can be offended against!! Bad actions can be initiated > against innocent people!! Not all that comes to one is (primarily) one's > own > kamma vipaka! (Yet I have every confidence that some will contort the > meaning > to reach the opposite conclusion. ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------- S: I’m sure you’ll read my comments above as a contortion;-) The whole point of the story was to show that in spite of it being perceived that Moggallana did not deserve his cruel fate, that in fact as the Buddha pointed out, the result of his earlier deed for which he’d “suffered torment for numberless hundreds of thousands of years in Hell” and other great torments before this life was 'deserved'. In other words, it is pointing out the enormity of the akusala kamma patha performed against ‘innocents’ and the results such acts bring. I found Ken H’s analogy of the ferris wheel and having all been on the top and on the bottom very wise. Perhaps it may also be a condition for compassion for those performing evil deeds as well? ..... One other small point I reflected on when I was re-reading this account was that sometimes I try to take some small steps in daily life to help others avoid performing harmful speech or acts. For example, if a child arrives without his/her homework, I don’t ask the reason if I think it may be a condition for the child to tell a lie - that kind of small thing. Here, though, we have an example of Maha Moggallana with all his psychic powers unable to prevent the bandits performing this terrible act, even though he knows the awful consequences there will be for them. In the same way, the Buddha could not stop Devadatta performing some terrible akusala kammapatha. Perhaps it’s mana (pride) to even think we can do anymore than a very little to help those around us in this regard. Just a few reflections... Metta, Sarah ====== 19687 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Howard (and Swee Boon), SB:> > >Therefore, in the case of the victims of 911 in that article, the > > >carrying out of the attack on the Twin Towers by the terrorists > > >merely provided the necessary ingredient/condition for the unarisen > > >vipaka (think of destructive kamma) of the victims to arise. > > ..... Sarah:> > Yes. > > ..... > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The connection then is adventitious, purely fortuitous! > Obviously, if > one waits long enough, for enough lifetimes, one will surely have "bad > things" happen to them, and "good things" as well. That is certainly not > the > mechanism for kammic niyama. I find this line of reasoning quite > unconvincing. > ======================== Sarah: As you say, if one waits enough lifetimes, “one will surely have "bad things" happen to them, and "good things" as well.” (James & Kom have written some nice posts to the Starkids on this). Doesn’t this also touch on the meaning of suffering? We cling to the “good things” which are so very fleeting and fear the “bad things”. We take this life as being the only life and forget that good and bad results will continue on indefinitely, being a condition for attachment and aversion and thereby more good and bad deeds on their account. It’s not a matter of any self waiting for anything, but by conditions, including kamma condition, various results will occur anyway, regardless of any wishing or intention to the contrary. Of course, the various combination of other conditions act as decisive support for kamma to bring its results at any particular time and we know the nitty-gritty details are ‘imponderables’. Still, we can test out now that there are 'good' and 'bad' sights, sounds, tastes, smells and bodily impressions being experienced. Isn’t this what is meant by anatta and no-control and the reason, perhaps, it’s so difficult to accept with equanimity what is conditioned at this very moment? Do you think it is unconvincing because a) it’s illogical, b) wisdom hasn’t been developed enough to prove or disprove it or c)at heart we don’t really want to accept it. Metta, Sarah ====== 19688 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kusala and akusala (was, Intention, willing and no-control) Hi Larry & Howard, Just clearing out my inbox.....I don't think this point was clarified. Larry: > I didn't understand this definition. Are an arahant's consciousness and > deeds kusala but kammicly neutral? If so, what is the meaning of kusala > in this case? =========================== Howard:>>You've made a good point. I would suppose that either Nyanatiloka's definition applies only to worldlings or one would have to say that an arahant's mindstates are neither kusala nor akusala.<< ============================= Sarah: I don’t know what definition of Nyantiloka’s you were discussing (I don’t have it here), but to clarify as I understand this point: * An arahant’s consciousness and deeds are not kusala but kiriya (inoperative). We can’t use kusala for arahants. * Any cetasikas, e.g cetana, accompanying these kiriya cittas are also kiriya (inoperative). So the cetana in this case only ever has the function of coordinating, never that of acting to bring results. * This also touches on the reason why wholesome cetasikas (mental factors) are called sobhana (beautiful) and not kusala; they do not only arise with kusala cittas, but also with some vipaka and some kiriya cittas. *The sobhana kiriya cittas (of an arahant) are accompanied by at least 19 out of the 25 sobhana cetasikas. * Just as for worldlings, ahetuka (non-root) vipaka cittas (results of kamma such as sense-door experiencing consciousness)are not accompanied by sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas, but as usual, just be the 7 universal cetasikas which accompany all cittas (i.e. phassa, vedana, sanna, cetana, ekaggata, ivitindriya and manasikara. Pls let me know if this doesn’t make sense or doesn’t seem to square with the definition you were discussing (if you can remember it;-)) Metta, Sarah ===== 19689 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:17am Subject: Re: hello Hi Prema, Welcome! You might want to read "Buddhism in Daily Life" by Nina van Gorkom to get an introduction to the concepts discussed on this site. It is available for download at http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Once you have read that book, you might want to try "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" by the same author (also available for download at the same site). Please feel free to ask questions. Metta, Rob M :-) 19690 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN IV, 170 - Fourth type Swee Boon --- "nidive " wrote: ... SB: Question (2): How is this second type of arahant (tranquility preceded by insight) different from the fourth type, that is: "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Jon: In the fourth case, there is no mention of the person attaining samatha, whether before or after his attainment of enlightenment. SB: I have also told you that this fourth type of arahant is elaborated in Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) ... but you said that it is not. I still insist that it's an elaboration of the fourth type. ... Please compare the two descriptions carefully. It appears that even the fourth type is considered as having practised mundane jhanas. Jon: I don’t quite see the basis for this last remark. The passage describing the fourth case mentions concentration but not tranquility. Why do you say it refers to mundane jhanas? I agree that the passage from AN III, 100 (which I have repasted below) refers to jhanas. According to my Bhikkhu Bodhi translation, it describes the person who is capable of attaining the 6 abhinnas. Happy to discuss further. Jon (AN III, 100 ) "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. "If he wants, he knows the awareness of other beings... "If he wants, he recollects his manifold past lives... "If he wants, he sees -- by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human -- beings passing away and re-appearing... "If he wants, then through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release and discernment- release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here and now. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening." Weight Age Gender Female Male 19691 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Sarah, > I agree that "there is no self to be found", but I don't understand how > you reach the rest of your conclusion that "Sarah.....are no different > from cetana". Cetana is one reality and one condition amongst many. What > we take for "Sarah" and "Swee Boon" are a combination of many different > realities. I have an idea there is some mis-communication here. Also when > you say "just this is existence", I have no idea what it means. I agree > that cetana "exists" and performs its various functions with no self to > assist. The same can be said about other paramattha dhammas too. Perhaps > you'd clarify. Kamma is hard to understand. When I say "Just this is existence. There is no self to be found.", I am NOT saying it from an intellectual point of understanding. And I don't intend to clarify, because I am unable to clarify it any further by way of words. But I just want to reproduce a sutta quote which James had brought up before. 7. "'Of kamma I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; kamma is the matrix; kamma is my kinsman; kamma is my refuge. Whatever kamma I perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be heir.' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/protection.html#s1 Please reflect, when the Buddha says "Of kamma I am constituted.", is there an entity called "I"? If there isn't an entity called "I", then what is that ? How is that different from kamma? Kamma is indeed one reality and one condition amongst many. Nevertheless, it is the chief reality and chief condition that ties us to samsara; it itself is samsara. The Buddha singled it out as one of the ten essentials to be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth. May you reflect well upon kamma again and again. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19692 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:47am Subject: Re: "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Sarah & Howard, > The connection then is adventitious, purely fortuitous! Obviously, if > one waits long enough, for enough lifetimes, one will surely have "bad > things" happen to them, and "good things" as well. That's how it is. If the past is infinite, the variety of results of kamma accumulated must also be infinite. I think this is why the Buddha said that the beginning of samsara and the results of kamma are imponderables. > That is certainly not the mechanism for kammic niyama. > I find this line of reasoning quite unconvincing. Not surprising anyway. We all like kamma to conform to our wishes and ideals, without realizing that we ourselves are nothing more than kamma. This amounts to nothing more than "praying" to ourselves through intellectual reasonings. It's still stuck in self-view, doubts and rites & rituals. This is how I see the matter. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19693 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Hi Jon, Sarah Et Al., I do understand the difference between kamma (cetanaa) and kamma-patha in a general way--though I'm not crystal clear on where to draw the line (I suspect it may be naturally a little blurred). My interest in lobha in this context is because of its basic position as one of the three unwholesome roots. In the context of lobha-dosa-moha, lobha has always seemed to me to include all forms of lobha including all those mentioned in Htoo Naing's recent reminder as well as kaama and maybe others. Otherwise, why not 'kaama-dosa-moha' or raaga-dosa-moha'? Though I do recall instances in the discourses of failure of attainment (of nirodha) resulting from akusala vipaaka (resulting in turn from akusala kamma-patha), it seems to me that everyday attachments and aversions (and identification with them), and their perpetual, moment-to-moment reinforcement (by volitional action) are far more central to the most central problem of all--conditioned origination. (I'm not sure that this view is supportable from the texts). To put it another way, it seems to me that the main issue isn't kusala vs. akusala, but rebirth vs. cessation. Kusala kamma-patha leads to pleasant rebirth/sense impingement; pa~n~naa leads to nibbaana. mike p.s. When I wrote "everyday attachments and aversions (and identification with them), and their perpetual, moment-to-moment reinforcement (by volitional action)" I had in mind something similar (I think) to NEO Swee Boon's recent comments regarding 'ourselves' as kamma. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) > Mike > > Great to have you back again :-)), :-)). I hope you don't mind me > jumping in here. > > Kamma is a vast and complex subject, which I do not pretend to even > partly grasp (I mean of course at an intellectual level). > > However, I believe we need to distinguish between the moments of > kusala/akusala volition that constitute 'completed action' or > 'courses of action' (kamma patha) and those moments of kusala/akusala > volition that are not of that strength or nature but simply > accumulate as a tendency. > > While it's true that the latter may play a part in our committing > more of the former at some time in the future, even this is not > necessarily so with all instances of akusala volition. For example, > the attachment that motivates our normal living activities (eating, > brushing teeth, going to work etc) is not regarded as leading us in > the direction of committing more akusala kamma patha. If I remember > correctly, this class of attachment is referred to somewhere in the > teachings as attachment that is 'to be followed' (perhaps someone > will remember the source, it has been quoted on-list before). Put > another way, this akusala volition simply does not involve the degree > of danger that other akusala volition does. > > In addition to that, even among the akusala volition that constitutes > akusala kamma patha, some plays only a supporting role, and so is > dependent for its efficacy on other (more weighty) kamma coming to > fruition. > > I have pasted below some extracts from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist > Dictionary that might be of interest. > > Jon > > Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary > A. Kamma-patha > <<< > kamma-patha: 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds > of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. > I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): > - 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; > - 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; > - 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. > II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): > - 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual > intercourse; > - 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, > foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; > - 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. > > Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of > defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the > hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms > of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute > 'courses of action'. > >>> > > B. Kamma > <<< > kamma: 'action', correctly speaking denotes the wholesome and > unwholesome volitions (kusala- and akusala-cetaná) and their > concomitant mental factors, causing rebirth and shaping the destiny > of beings. > These karmical volitions (kamma cetaná) become manifest as wholesome > or unwholesome actions by body (káya-kamma), speech (vací-kamma) and > mind (mano-kamma). > .. .. .. > With regard to their functions one distinguishes: > 1. regenerative (or productive) karma (janaka-kamma), > 2. supportive (or consolidating) karma (upatthambhaka-kamma), > 3. counteractive (suppressive or frustrating) karma > (upapílaka-kamma), > 4. destructive (or supplanting) karma (upaghátaka- or > upacchedaka-kamma). > (1) produces the 5 groups of existence (corporeality, feeling, > perception, mental formations, consciousness) at rebirth as well as > during life-continuity. > (2) does not produce karma-results but is only able to maintain the > already produced karma-results. > (3) counteracts or suppresses the karma-results. > (4) destroys the influence of a weaker karma and effects only its own > result. > >>> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:26 AM > > > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for you comments, > > "If we like our food or laugh, there is no akusala kamma. We just > discussed this again with A. Sujin. If we would think that laughing > brings an unpleasant result, how unnatural our life would be. It > could cause lots of scruples to people." > > If thought, speech or action with regard to a pleasant impingement > (of thought of flavor e.g.) is conditioned by attachment to the > pleasant feeling--that is, tending to continue or repeat the > impingement--this is perfectly natural but still akusala, I think, > however subtle. (I mean that that volition does accumulate as > akusala kamma and as a condition for > future akusala kamma). > > In fact I think most akusala is 'perfectly natural' and learning to > see the danger in it (especially in lobha) is rather un-natural. > Naturally, people like to think that their everday pleasures and > attachments are harmless, but this is not borne out by my (obviously > very limited) understanding of Buddhadhamma. > > Am I missing or miscontruing something? Thanks in advance... > > mike 19694 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Howard (& Sarah) > Whosoever visits punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, > Whosoever offends against those that are without offense > Bad actions can be initiated against innocent people!! > Not all that comes to one is (primarily) one's own kamma vipaka! > (Yet I have every confidence that some will contort the meaning > to reach the opposite conclusion. ;-) Howard, I think that you are the one who contorted the meaning to reach your own conclusion. In The Life of Sariputta, we read that a monk accused Venerable Sariputta of wrong-doing. ------------------------------------------------------ Once, when the Buddha was residing at Jetavana, the Venerable Sariputta was the victim of a false accusation. It so happened that at the end of the rains the Elder took leave of the Master and departed with his own retinue of monks on a journey. A large number of monks also took leave of Sariputta, and in dismissing them he addressed those who were known by their personal and family names, by those names. Among them there was a monk who was not known by his personal and family name, but a strong desire arose in him that the Chief Disciple should address him by those names in taking his departure. In the great throng of monks, however, the Venerable Sariputta did not give him this distinction, and the monk was aggrieved. "He does not greet me as he does the other monks," he thought, and conceived a grudge against Sariputta. At the same time it chanced that the hem of the Elder's robe brushed against him, and this added to his grievance. He approached the Buddha and complained; "Lord, the Venerable Sariputta, doubtless thinking to himself, 'I am the Chief Disciple', struck me a blow that almost damaged my ear. And having done that without so much as begging my pardon, he set out on his journey." The Buddha summoned Sariputta into his presence. Meanwhile, the Venerable Maha Moggallana and the Venerable Ananda, knowing that a calumny was about to be exposed, summoned all the monks, convoking an assembly. "Approach, venerable sirs!" they called. "When the Venerable Sariputta is face to face with the Master, he will roar the roar of a lion!"[40] And so it came about. When the Master questioned the great Elder, instead of denying the charge he said: "O Lord, one who is not firmly established in the contemplation of the body with regard to his body, such a one may be able to hurt a fellow monk and leave without apologizing." Then followed the Venerable Sariputta's lion's roar. He compared his freedom from anger and hatred with the patience of the earth which receives all things, clean and unclean; his tranquillity of mind to a bull with severed horns, to a lowly Candala youth, to water, fire and wind, and to the removal of impurity; he compared the oppression he felt from his own body to the oppression of snakes and corpses, and the maintenance of his body to that of fatty excrescences. In nine similes he described his own virtues, and nine times the great earth responded to the words of truth. The entire assembly was moved by the majestic force of his utterance. As the Elder proclaimed his virtues, remorse filled the monk who had unjustly traduced him. Immediately, he fell at the feet of the Blessed One, admitting his slander and confessing his fault. Thereupon the Buddha said: "Sariputta, pardon this deluded man, lest his head should split into seven pieces." Sariputta's reply was: "Venerable sir, I freely pardon this venerable monk." And, with joined palms, he added, "May this venerable monk also pardon me if I have in any way offended him." http://www.abhidhamma.org/life_of_sariputta.htm ------------------------------------------------------ Venerable Sariputta is clearly without offense with regard to the false accusation. But can we say rightly that the hearing of the false accusation at the ear door is not the result of (akusala) kamma? If someone is in silent anger and you happen to ask him something (without knowing that he is angry), and he replies with harsh speech, are you with or without offense? Is not the hearing of that harsh speech at the ear door the result of (akusala) kamma (even though you are without offense)? In the same way, Venerable Maha-Moggallana was without offense. We read: ------------------------------------------------------ These were the circumstances of Moggallana's death. After the death of Nathaputta, the leader of the ascetic Order of the Jains (Jinas),[10] there arose among his followers bitter contentions about his teaching, and consequently there was a loss of devoted adherents and of support. The Jains had also learned what Moggallana reported from his celestial travels: that virtuous devotees of the Buddha were seen to have a heavenly rebirth while followers of other sects lacking moral conduct, had fallen into miserable, sub-human states of existence. This, too, contributed to the decline in the reputation of other sects, including the Jains. Particularly the very lowest type of Jains in Magadha were so enraged about that loss of public esteem and support that they wanted to get rid of Moggallana. Without investigating the causes in themselves, they projected blame externally and concentrated their envy and hate on Maha-Moggallana. Hesitating to commit a murder themselves, they conceived another plan. Even in those days there were professional criminals ready to do a killing for payment. There are always unscrupulous men willing to do anything for money. So some evil-minded Jains hired such a gang and ordered them to kill Moggallana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel263.html ------------------------------------------------------ But his death is certainly the result of (akusala) kamma. Please read carefully what the Buddha said about the death of Venerable Maha-Moggallana. ------------------------------------------------------ > "Monks, if you REGARD ONLY THIS PRESENT STATE OF EXISTENCE, > Moggallana the Great did indeed meet death which he DID NOT DESERVE. > But as a MATTER OF FACT, the MANNER OF DEATH he met was in EXACT CONFORMITY > with the DEED he COMMITTED in a PREVIOUS state of EXISTENCE.' " http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19610 ------------------------------------------------------ The Buddha's answer directly contradicts your statements: > Bad actions can be initiated against innocent people!! > Not all that comes to one is (primarily) one's own kamma vipaka! Venerable Maha-Moggallana was clearly innocent and without offense with regards to his direct and indirect killers. Yet the Buddha also said that his death was the result of (akusala) kamma. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19695 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Dear Jon, What a wonderful reminder. It is the best respect.. Even in the kitchen we can pay respect in this way. Nina op 16-02-2003 14:25 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Moments of satipatthana/insight are the highest respect that can be > paid to the Buddha/the Triple Gem by one not yet enlightened. > > Likewise, moments at which are being developed the necessary > conditions for satipatthana/insight to arise are also moments of > paying respect to the Triple Gem 19696 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Dear Sarah, Very good to give these references. From the Vinaya is very interesting, I had not thought of those.And from the Mahaniddesa, I have those in Thai. Nina. op 16-02-2003 13:02 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > "The Abhidhamma was in existence during The Buddha’s time. This can be > proved from the following passages in the Book of Discipline, vol 111: > > a)"p.415 "Not given leave means: without asking (for permission). Should > ask a question means: if, having asked for leave in regard to Suttanta, > she asks about discipline or about Abhidhamma, there is an offence of > expiation. If, having asked for leave in regard to Abhidhamm, shes asks > about Suttanta or about Discipline, there is an offence of expiation." > > b) "p.42 "There is no offence if, not desiring to disparage, he speaks, > saying: "Look here, do you master suttantas or verses or what is extra to > dhamma (i.e. Abhidhamma)and afterwards you will master discipline’; if he > is mad, if he is the first wrong-doer." > 19697 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Dear Kom, I appreciate your answer very much, this is the core of the matter. Especially this one: Wisdom is a truly > wonderful quality: it allows us to see things as they are, > as the Buddha has taught them.> This will become ever more clear. Nina op 16-02-2003 06:31 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > he > who sees the dhamma sees the Buddha. We might not be able > to see the "dhamma" right now, but we can learn a bit at a > time about other things that we can see. By learning what > appears now as they truly are, we learn more about what the > Buddha truly taught, and not just stories that we hear from > other people..... > But if we truly know and understand the evidence that is > appearing right in front of us, then we are less likely to > be shaken: the evidence is indisputable. Wisdom is a truly > wonderful quality: it allows us to see things as they are, > as the Buddha has taught them. 19698 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Manual of Abh., new book. : Atthayojanaa? Dear Suan, This is very interesting, thank you. Nina op 16-02-2003 15:16 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > Atthayojana(a) is a kind of textual dictionary. 19699 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/17/03 2:51:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Sorry for the delay - back to Moggallana’s death: > > >---------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > My, quite an accomplishment I'd say! Torn from limb to limb with > >bones > >pounded down until as small as grains of sand - and then this pile of > >flesh > >and sand manages to go pay respects! Not quite believable, is it? ;-) Of > > > >course, Maha Moggalana was a master of psychic abilities - so perhaps he > >did > >a quick reassembly job! > >---------------------------------------------- > S: ;-)Remember that on the first attempt by the thugs to kill him, he > escaped through the keyhole and on the second attempt he broke through the > roof of the house and soared into the air. Also, it was on account of > jealousy over his abilities (and the rewards that came as a result) that > they were so determined to kill him in the first place. We read that he > was used to going to the heavenly realms to ask the deities about the good > deeds they had performed and repeat these to humans and then he would go > to the hell planes and find out what had been done to bring about such > suffering. I think we’re bound to underestimate the abilities of the Great > Theras like Moggallana and Sariputta as well as the omniscient powers of > the Buddha, because we just cannot begin to comprehend them. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Oh, I think it is all comprehensible. It's just that we don't know for sure how much of this is fact and how much is exaggerative legend. I do *not* disbelieve in unusual powers. Actually, I think they are easier to accept from my phenomenalist perspective than from a materialist or dualist one. It's just that we don't know how much of the reportage is fact, and how much is fiction. ----------------------------------------------------- > > With regard to this last incident of paying respect to the Buddha, I’m > just checking the details now and quote: > > “Then thinking to themselves, “He is dead,â€? they tossed his bones behind a > certain clump of bushes and went their way. The Elder thought to himself, > “I will pay my respects to the Teacher before I pass into Nibbana.â€? > Accordingly he swathed himself with meditation as with a cloth, made > himself rigid, and soaring through the air, he proceeded to the Teacher, > paid obeisance to the Teacher, and said to him. “reverend Sir, I am about > to pass into Nibbana.â€? > > We then read that after paying his respects, he rose into the air, > performed various miracles, preached the Law and then passed into > parinibbana. > ..... > > >>----------------------------------------------------- > S: > >>He then spoke these Dhammapada verses 137 - 140: > >>"Whosoever visits punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, > >>Whosoever offends against those that are without offense, > >>Such an one will right quickly come to one of ten states: > >> > >>He will incur cruel suffering, or infirmity or injury of the body, > >>Or severe sickness, or loss of mind, > >> > >>Or misfortune proceeding from the king, or a heavy accusation, > >>Or death of relatives, or loss of treasures, > >> > >>Or else the fire of lightning will consume his houses; > >>upon dissolution of the body such a simpleton will go to Hell." > >> > >---------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Ahh, but look at what the foregoing says! It says "Whosoever > >visits > >punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, Whosoever offends > >against > >those that are without offense, Such an one will right quickly come to > >one of > >ten states ..." > ..... > S: I understand your point;-) I understood it to mean ‘at the time’ or ‘in > this life’. If we maliciously attack someone totally unprovoked, it will > bring a heavy kammic result. In other words, I read it to mean ‘without > offence at THE TIME of attack’, though we know from the rest of the > passage, there is no result without offence having been performed sometime > in the past. In other words, the stress here is on the seriousness of the > deed. If there is an attack in self-defence, for example, it would not be > as heinous as Maha Moggallana’s previous deed against his parents or that > of the bandits against him in this lifetime. > ..... > > (It refers, of course, to the Venerable having received > >kammic retribution for his past misdeeds.) Note that this quoted > >material > >says that those who "deserve not punishment" (the venerable's parents in > >the > >earlier life in this case) can yet receive punishment, that "those that > >are > >without offense" can be offended against!! Bad actions can be initiated > >against innocent people!! Not all that comes to one is (primarily) one's > >own > >kamma vipaka! (Yet I have every confidence that some will contort the > >meaning > >to reach the opposite conclusion. ;-) > >---------------------------------------------------------- > S: I’m sure you’ll read my comments above as a contortion;-) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: You betcha!! ;-) But I must commend you on your talent in that direction!! ;-)) --------------------------------------------------- > > The whole point of the story was to show that in spite of it being > perceived that Moggallana did not deserve his cruel fate, that in fact as > the Buddha pointed out, the result of his earlier deed for which he’d > “suffered torment for numberless hundreds of thousands of years in Hellâ€? > and other great torments before this life was 'deserved'. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I get that and have no bone to pick with it. -------------------------------------------------- > > In other words, it is pointing out the enormity of the akusala kamma patha > performed against ‘innocents’ and the results such acts bring. I found Ken > H’s analogy of the ferris wheel and having all been on the top and on the > bottom very wise. Perhaps it may also be a condition for compassion for > those performing evil deeds as well? > ..... > One other small point I reflected on when I was re-reading this account > was that sometimes I try to take some small steps in daily life to help > others avoid performing harmful speech or acts. For example, if a child > arrives without his/her homework, I don’t ask the reason if I think it may > be a condition for the child to tell a lie - that kind of small thing. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's very compassionate. --------------------------------------------------- > Here, though, we have an example of Maha Moggallana with all his psychic > powers unable to prevent the bandits performing this terrible act, even > though he knows the awful consequences there will be for them. In the same > way, the Buddha could not stop Devadatta performing some terrible akusala > kammapatha. Perhaps it’s mana (pride) to even think we can do anymore than > a very little to help those around us in this regard. Just a few > reflections... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19700 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight. Co. Dear Swee Boon, The ending of the Co to A4, 170, in tandem is in short, I found it not so clear. Look now what follows. The Co to A 3, 100, is similar but it gives more. This Co is in Thai. Sutta begins with the simile of washing of gold. Adhicitta: citta intent on samatha and vipassana. First comparing translations, I have PTS. But B.Th has: "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. B Th: His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet > attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication > of forceful restraint.> Thoughts of dhamma: PTS has reflections about mindstates. And note to dhammas: the upakilesas of vipassana. Then B Th: uses: fabrications. Text has: sasankhaara niggayha vaarita vato.(sasankhara: prompted. Niggayha: blame, censure.varita: avoided. vato: observance. difficult to translate this) PTS: it is a state dependent on painful habitual restraint.(B Th stresses: forceful restraint) Co states that he cannot have one object. As far as I understand this difficult text, he can overcome the perfections of insight. When his defilements are abandoned those reflections do not arise anymore. (N: thus, this does not mean that we should have forceful restraint. It is panna that performs its function.) Then the text: Hoti so bhikkhave samayo, same words as at the end of Co to in tandem: Bhikkhus, there is this occasion, mentioning the conditions as climate, etc. which are natural strong dependence condition for enlightenment, pakatupanissaya paccaya. The text continues, stating that he has eradicated all defilements. The Abhinnas are of the arahat. At the end: this sutta spoke of the phalasamapatti: fruition attainment. Remarks: Thus he has cultivated vipassana and became an arahat. He also developed jhana, he could reach fruition attainment. to conclude for now, I quote from Dhamma Issues 2: op nidive@y...: > This is said in Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x): > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-100-1.html > > "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent > on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the > monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes > out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the > moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & > harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of > existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine > impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, > thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, > destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. > > "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. > His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet > attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication > of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows > steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His > concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and > is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. > > "And then whichever of the higher knowledges (abhinna powers and > ending of mental effluents) he turns his mind to know & realize, he > can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening. > > > This fourth type of practitioner is very special. The practitioner > does not practice jhanic access or jhanic absorption concentration. > Yet the practitioner can still attain abhinna powers and the ending > of the mental effluents. 19701 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, Sarah - Swee Boon had said that the kamma of the 911 victims was not a cause for the Al Qaida attack. I believe that is true. But that means that there is no connection between alleged past misdeeds of the near-3000 victims and their terrible deaths at the hands of ignorant murderers. To characterize their deaths as their vipaka is, to my mind, ludicrous. What we saw there was the initiation of new kamma by the attackers and those others complicitous in the attack. The victim's kammic traces didn't "know" that being at work that day was an "opportunity" for their fruition! With no relation of causality holding between the past kamma of the victims and the attack made by the hijackers, the circumstances, from the perspective of the victims, are reasonably characterized as adventitious (as regards their kamma). Their own kamma was not essentially involved in the event. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/17/03 3:17:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard (and Swee Boon), > > SB:> >>Therefore, in the case of the victims of 911 in that article, the > >>>carrying out of the attack on the Twin Towers by the terrorists > >>>merely provided the necessary ingredient/condition for the unarisen > >>>vipaka (think of destructive kamma) of the victims to arise. > >>..... > Sarah:> >Yes. > >>..... > >> > >---------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > The connection then is adventitious, purely fortuitous! > >Obviously, if > >one waits long enough, for enough lifetimes, one will surely have "bad > >things" happen to them, and "good things" as well. That is certainly not > >the > >mechanism for kammic niyama. I find this line of reasoning quite > >unconvincing. > >======================== > Sarah: As you say, if one waits enough lifetimes, “one will surely have > "bad things" happen to them, and "good things" as well.â€? (James &Kom have > written some nice posts to the Starkids on this). Doesn’t this also touch > on the meaning of suffering? We cling to the “good thingsâ€? which are so > very fleeting and fear the “bad thingsâ€?. We take this life as being the > only life and forget that good and bad results will continue on > indefinitely, being a condition for attachment and aversion and thereby > more good and bad deeds on their account. It’s not a matter of any self > waiting for anything, but by conditions, including kamma condition, > various results will occur anyway, regardless of any wishing or intention > to the contrary. Of course, the various combination of other conditions > act as decisive support for kamma to bring its results at any particular > time and we know the nitty-gritty details are ‘imponderables’. Still, we > can test out now that there are 'good' and 'bad' sights, sounds, tastes, > smells and bodily impressions being experienced. > > Isn’t this what is meant by anatta and no-control and the reason, perhaps, > it’s so difficult to accept with equanimity what is conditioned at this > very moment? > > Do you think it is unconvincing because a) it’s illogical, b) wisdom > hasn’t been developed enough to prove or disprove it or c)at heart we > don’t really want to accept it. > > Metta, > > Sarah > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19702 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:22am Subject: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, all - For the constituents of a conventional event (such as the 9-11 massacre) to be kamma vipaka, the kamma must have been a condition for their arising. It is not enough that the kamma preceded the event. When A attacks B, and B subsequently counter-attacks, the subsequent attack on A had the attack on B as condition. When a person is enraged, and hurts himself due to his rage-induced lack of control, that hurt is kamma vipaka. The point is that there must be a causal connection between kamma and corresponding vipaka. When that is lacking between kamma and a subsequent event, it is inappropriate to call the event, or aspects of it, vipaka of that kamma. I hope this clarifies what I've been writing about. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19703 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:33am Subject: Contradictory Statements Hi, all - I think we would best not be too sure about any of our "understandings" of the Dhamma. I had found the following def'n in Ven. Nyanatiloka's dictionary. > vipáka: 'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral mental > phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, > etc. ), which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action > (karma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some > previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, > everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any > karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former > action, being in reality itself karma. On this subject s. tittháyatana, > karma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. > 80).Karma-produced (kammaja or kamma-samutthána) corporeal things are never > called kamma-vipáka, as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I was initially interested in this because of what I capitalize in the noun phrase "any karmically (morally) neutral mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc. ), WHICH IS THE RESULT of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life." It underscores my insistance that vipaka must be the *result*, at least in part, of the kamma. But then I noted the final sentence, which states "Karma-produced (kammaja or kamma-samutthána) corporeal things are never called kamma-vipáka, as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena." Now, this is interesting in its subtlety. However, it made me think of something stated by the Buddha which seems to be in outright contradiction to this, namely the following, taken from ATI: *********************************************** "What is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, > capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The > intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being > felt. This is called old kamma. "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one > does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect. This is called > new kamma." [SN XXXV.145] ********************************************** I do see one possible way out of this apparent contradiction: In this latter sutta material, eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and intellect are not intended as corporeal things, but as modes of experience, so that "eye" means not a physical eye, but the visual mode of experience. Any thoughts on this folks? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19704 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:31pm Subject: Re: Contradictory Statements --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > . On this subject s. tittháyatana, > > karma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. > > 80).Karma-produced (kammaja or kamma-samutthána) corporeal things are never > > called kamma-vipáka, as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > . However, it made me think of something stated by > the Buddha which seems to be in outright contradiction to this, namely the > following, taken from ATI: > > *********************************************** > "What is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, > > capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The > > intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being > > felt. This is called old kamma. "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one > > does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect. This is called > > new kamma." > [SN XXXV.145] > ********************************************** > Dear Howard, Vipaka is a term that applies to the mental result of kamma. But kamma also produces some rupa - as has been said many times on this forum - such as eye base(cakkhu pasada ) etc. These phenomena although conditioned by kamma are not called vipaka. Robert 19705 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:35pm Subject: Re: Contradictory Statements Hi Howard, I think note 111 (p. 757) to the sutta "Not Yours" in Samyutta Nikaya Nidanasamyutta 12 37(7( p.575 ) B. Bodhi has a bearing on this topic: "Spk. says "It is old kamma (puraanam idam kammam): This body is not actually old kamma, but because it is produced by old kamma it is spoken of in terms of its condition. It should be seen 'as generated' (abhisankhata), in that it is based on volition, rooted in volition; and 'as something to be felt' (vedaniya), in that it is a basis for what is to be felt. [Spk-pt: because it is a basis and object of feeling]. In 35:146 the same idea is extended to the six internal sense bases. To reflect upon the body in terms of dependent origination, one considers that this body can be subsumed under "form" in the compound "name-and-form". One then reflects that name-and-form comes into being with consciousness, i.e. the rebirth-consciousness, as a conascent condition, and that both consciousness and name-and-form originate from the volitional formations, i.e. the kammic activities of the preceding existence. Thus the theme of this sutta ties up with the three that immediately follow." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: 19706 From: connie Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:58pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Howard ~ I'm not sure what you mean by a causal connection between kamma and corresponding vipaka. Are you saying there should be some recognizable linear relationship? I think it's more like chaos theory. The link could come from anywhere in all that's accumulated. From 'out of the blue' a memory is triggered and I smell the sauerkraut my grandfather made in the kitchen or hear his laughter. Time is non-linear and all contained in each present moment. My history is just my understanding and ordering of events. Just another story to get me through in what we call the real world. peace, connie Howard wrote: Hi, all - For the constituents of a conventional event (such as the 9-11 massacre) to be kamma vipaka, the kamma must have been a condition for their arising. It is not enough that the kamma preceded the event. When A attacks B, and B subsequently counter-attacks, the subsequent attack on A had the attack on B as condition. When a person is enraged, and hurts himself due to his rage-induced lack of control, that hurt is kamma vipaka. The point is that there must be a causal connection between kamma and corresponding vipaka. When that is lacking between kamma and a subsequent event, it is inappropriate to call the event, or aspects of it, vipaka of that kamma. I hope this clarifies what I've been writing about. With metta, Howard 19707 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi, Robert - In a message dated 2/17/03 4:33:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Vipaka is a term that applies to the mental result of kamma. But > kamma also produces some rupa - as has been said many times on this > forum - such as eye base(cakkhu pasada ) etc. These phenomena > although conditioned by kamma are not called vipaka. > Robert > ========================== So, Robert, you are saying that various sorts of dhamma arise with kamma as condition, but only mental results are called vipaka? But isn't the realm of one's birth a basic case of kamma vipaka? The realm of birth doesn't strike me as a mental phenomenon. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19708 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/17/03 4:55:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I think note 111 (p. 757) to the sutta "Not Yours" in Samyutta > Nikaya Nidanasamyutta 12 37(7( p.575 ) B. Bodhi has a bearing on this > topic: > > "Spk. says "It is old kamma (puraanam idam kammam): This body is not > actually old kamma, but because it is produced by old kamma it is > spoken of in terms of its condition. It should be seen 'as > generated' (abhisankhata), in that it is based on volition, rooted in > volition; and 'as something to be felt' (vedaniya), in that it is a > basis for what is to be felt. [Spk-pt: because it is a basis and > object of feeling]. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Chris. Yes, of course. I understand that the eye, for example, is not old kamma. The question was whether it is the vipaka of old kamma. Nyanatiloka (and Robert) state that only mental phenomena are vipaka. But the statements of the Buddha I quoted seem to imply otherwise. The resolution of the apparent contradiction requires, it seems to me, either a special definition of 'eye', 'ear', etc, or requires a special definition of 'vipaka'. I took the former approach, and Robert took the latter in saying " Vipaka is a term that applies to the mental result of kamma. But kamma also produces some rupa - as has been said many times on this forum - such as eye base(cakkhu pasada ) etc. These phenomena although conditioned by kamma are not called vipaka." -------------------------------------------------- > > In 35:146 the same idea is extended to the six internal sense bases. > To reflect upon the body in terms of dependent origination, one > considers that this body can be subsumed under "form" in the > compound "name-and-form". One then reflects that name-and-form comes > into being with consciousness, i.e. the rebirth-consciousness, as a > conascent condition, and that both consciousness and name-and-form > originate from the volitional formations, i.e. the kammic activities > of the preceding existence. Thus the theme of this sutta ties up > with the three that immediately follow." > > metta, > Christine > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19709 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Connie - In a message dated 2/17/03 5:07:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@h... writes: > Hi, Howard ~ > > I'm not sure what you mean by a causal connection between kamma and > corresponding vipaka. Are you saying there should be some recognizable > linear relationship? I think it's more like chaos theory. The link > could come from anywhere in all that's accumulated. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not clear as to what you mean by "linear relationship". All conditionality, according to the Buddha, requires the coming together of several conditions, and not all of these need be in the past - some may be co-occurring. -------------------------------------------------------- From 'out of the> > blue' a memory is triggered and I smell the sauerkraut my grandfather > made in the kitchen or hear his laughter. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, in fact, nothing really comes "out of the blue," but only because of causes and conditions. No doubt, some current event had characteristics in common with the remembered event. The common (or related) characteristics are the "connection" required for the triggering. Also, as far as I'm concerned, saying "I smell the sauerkraut my grandfather made in the kitchen or hear his laughter" is metaphorical. What you actually experience is a faithful sensory re-creation. Getting back to kamma and vipaka, to call an event vipaka of particular kamma requires a connection between them of the sort usually called "causal". The word 'vipaka' isn't translated as "result" for no reason. ------------------------------------------------------ Time is non-linear and all> > contained in each present moment. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Time is concept-only since there is ever and only "the present", but as it is experienced, it does not appear to be anything but linear. Time does not run backwards, for example, Dogen notwithstanding. There is a difference between the sequence of mental events as they occur, and the remembering of them in some other order. The remembering of events in a backwards order is itself a forward- unfolding sequence of events. ----------------------------------------------------- My history is just my understanding> > and ordering of events. Just another story to get me through in what we > call the real world. > > peace, > connie > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19710 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi again, Connie - In a message dated 2/17/03 5:07:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@h... writes: > I'm not sure what you mean by a causal connection between kamma and > corresponding vipaka. Are you saying there should be some recognizable > linear relationship? I think it's more like chaos theory. The link > could come from anywhere in all that's accumulated. ======================== I realize that I didn't directly answer this question in my previous reply. What I mean by a "causal connection" is a relationship the four main characteristics of which are (taken from Samyutta Nikaya 2.25, and as reported by Kalupahana) the following: "... objectivity (tathata), necessity (avitathata), invariability (ana~n~nathata), and conditionality or interdependence (idappaccayata). It is a relation of the general form of dependent origination: When there is this, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. When this is not, neither is that. With the cessation of this, that ceases. [S.II.28,65] Causality in this sense does not require some hidden "causal power", but only the objectivity, necessity, invariability, and conditionality of the relationship between the conditions and their result. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19711 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:49pm Subject: Re: Contradictory Statements Hi Howard, Hope you don't mind if I jump into this; unfortunately, I am long winded as usual. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > vipáka: 'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral mental > > phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense- consciousness, > > etc. ), which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action > > (karma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some > > previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, > > everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any > > karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former > > action, being in reality itself karma. ===== I think that the point that Nyanatiloka is stressing here is that vipaka has no ethical quality. There is nothing "akusala" about akusala vipaka cittas. There is nothing "kusala" about kusala vipaka cittas. Vipaka cittas get a label of "akusala" or "kusala" to indicate what type of javana citta created them, not because of their ethical quality. An akusala javana citta creates kamma which will result in a citta called "akusala vipaka citta". All vipaka cittas are rootless; they have no moral quality. Conditions arise and something happens to me; the "something happening to me" is vipaka. What happens to me is not "good" or "bad", it is at the time that my reaction to what happens to me arises that the issue of "good" or "bad" occurs. Feeling (using the Buddhist definition here) arises naturally with every citta and is ethically variable. It is emotions (lobha-mula, dosa-mula, moha-mula) which follow that introduce an ethical dimension. In his statement, "Totally wrong...", Nyanatiloka is pointing out that volitional action is not vipaka; there is a point between stimulus and response and in that point is our freedom from samsara. ===== On this subject s. tittháyatana, > > karma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. > > 80).Karma-produced (kammaja or kamma-samutthána) corporeal things are never > > called kamma-vipáka, as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena. ===== As Rob K pointed out, this is an issue of semantics; mental states arising from kamma are called "vipaka" while rupa arising from kamma is called kammaja-rupa. ===== > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I was initially interested in this because of what I capitalize in the > noun phrase "any karmically (morally) neutral mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily > agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc. ), WHICH IS THE > RESULT of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) through > body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life." It > underscores my insistance that vipaka must be the *result*, at least in part, > of the kamma. ===== I don't see "vipaka" as the "result" of volitional activities in the context of causality. I see it in terms of "conditions". Let me illustrate this point with an analogy. Is a tree a "result" of a seed? If we see a tree, we know that there must have been a seed, but there were many other conditions (sun, rain, soil, season, etc.) which also contributed to the existence of a tree. Each microsecond, there are millions of thought processes going on creating millions of "kammic seeds". Conditions will allow one of these "kammic seeds" to develop into a vipaka citta. In my mind, saying that vipaka is the "result of kamma" doesn't create the proper mental image of "conditions". ===== > But then I noted the final sentence, which states "Karma- produced > (kammaja or kamma-samutthána) corporeal things are never called kamma-vipáka, > as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena." Now, this is > interesting in its subtlety. However, it made me think of something stated by > the Buddha which seems to be in outright contradiction to this, namely the > following, taken from ATI: > > *********************************************** > "What is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, > > capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The > > intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being > > felt. This is called old kamma. "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one > > does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect. This is called > > new kamma." > [SN XXXV.145] > ********************************************** ===== I see "old kamma" as the kamma which was active at the time of rebirth-linking. This kamma made us human and gave us the six sense bases. When, in the Paticcasamuppada, they talk about the six sense bases arising dependent on nama-rupa, we are talking about the 29 kamma-producing cittas which create rupa. The six sense bases are kammaja-rupa, as is the masculine/feminine rupa and the life faculty rupa, jivitindriya. Once this "old kamma" performs it's function at the time of rebirth linking, it keeps on repeating itself (in other words, we don't spontaneously change gender :-) ). I see "new kamma" as the kamma created now as a result of volitional activites. Once created, these new kammic seeds can perform one of three functions in the future: - They can become defunct because conditions do not arise for their ripening - Conditions can arise for the kammic seed to ripen into a vipaka citta some time in the current life or in a future life - Conditions can arise for the kammic seed to ripen into a rebirth linking citta at the time of a new existence. Note that rebirth linking cittas are actually vipaka cittas. ===== > I do see one possible way out of this apparent contradiction: In this > latter sutta material, eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and intellect are not > intended as corporeal things, but as modes of experience, so that "eye" means > not a physical eye, but the visual mode of experience. Any thoughts on this > folks? ===== Sorry Howard, I don't see any contradiction. Had the Buddha refered to the six sense bases as "vipaka", then there would have been a contradiction. I read this Sutta as the Buddha saying that kamma is a condition for the six sense bases; in other words, the six sense bases are kammaja-rupa. Interested in comments and corrections. Metta, Rob M:-) 19712 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Howard, I find the "cause - effect" approach to kamma to be misleading. Let me propose a different perpective on kamma. Every microsecond, millions of javana cittas in millions of thought processes arise. The cetana cetasika in each javana citta does two things: - Creates a kammic seed - Reinforces an accumulation (mental habit) Since many of the kammic seeds can last multiple lifetimes, we all have a gazillion kammic seeds waiting for the right conditions to arise so that they can develop into vipaka. No matter how "saintly" we may have been, we all have lots of "this-lifetime-ending kammic seeds" hanging around waiting for the right conditions to arise. On 9-11, for a few thousand people, conditions arose which allowed "this-lifetime-ending kammic seeds" to develop. Though, technically, there was a cause-effect relationship between the specific volitional activity and the "this-lifetime-ending vipaka", trying to understand this relationship is well beyond me. I believe that this is one of the stages of understanding that the Buddha developed on the night of His enlightenment. I find it useful to contemplate that cetana also reinforces an accumulation. What happens to us happens because of conditions and kammic seeds. How we react to what happens to us (and the new kammic seeds that we create) is dependent on our accumulations. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > For the constituents of a conventional event (such as the 9- 11 > massacre) to be kamma vipaka, the kamma must have been a condition for their > arising. It is not enough that the kamma preceded the event. > When A attacks B, and B subsequently counter-attacks, the subsequent > attack on A had the attack on B as condition. When a person is enraged, and > hurts himself due to his rage-induced lack of control, that hurt is kamma > vipaka. The point is that there must be a causal connection between kamma and > corresponding vipaka. When that is lacking between kamma and a subsequent > event, it is inappropriate to call the event, or aspects of it, vipaka of > that kamma. I hope this clarifies what I've been writing about. 19713 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi, Rob - In a message dated 2/17/03 7:50:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > I see "old kamma" as the kamma which was active at the time of > rebirth-linking. This kamma made us human and gave us the six sense > bases. When, in the Paticcasamuppada, they talk about the six sense > bases arising dependent on nama-rupa, we are talking about the 29 > kamma-producing cittas which create rupa. The six sense bases are > kammaja-rupa, as is the masculine/feminine rupa and the life faculty > rupa, jivitindriya. Once this "old kamma" performs it's function at > the time of rebirth linking, it keeps on repeating itself (in other > words, we don't spontaneously change gender :-) ). > > ========================== Ahhh. This is good - perhaps not even a contortion at all! ;-)) What the Buddha had in mind might indeed have been the sense organs at birth being an "incarnating" of old kamma. I find this to be a plausible reading. So, one should understand kamma vipaka as mental, including such things as feelings (with some things being felt as pleasant, others as unpleasant, and still others as neutral), interest (or lack of) with regard to particular phenomena, and attention (or lack thereof) with regard to particular phenomena - this last would include tending to notice some things but not others. What about reactions of craving and aversion? They, themselves, are not cetana. Does that mean they are vipaka and not kamma? That seems right to me: Craving and aversion are vipaka, but cetana having the craving or aversion as condition would be new, akusala kamma. One other question: Does the restriction of the term 'kamma vipaka' to mental phenomena occur in the Sutta Pitaka? And does the term 'kammaja-rupa' occur in the Sutta Pitaka? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19714 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kusala and akusala (was, Intention, willing and no-control) Hi Sarah, Thanks for clarifications on "kusala" and how it may or may not apply to an arahant. My question arose from the phrase "good actions of an Arahant and his meditative states" in Ven ~Nanatiloka's definition of kusala. I was wondering what "good" means when it doesn't relate to kamma. I understand from your reply that good means accompanied by at least 19 of the 25 sobhana cetasikas. Makes sense to me. Thanks. Larry 19715 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > So, one should understand kamma vipaka as mental, including such > things as feelings (with some things being felt as pleasant, others as > unpleasant, and still others as neutral), interest (or lack of) with regard > to particular phenomena, and attention (or lack thereof) with regard to > particular phenomena - this last would include tending to notice some things > but not others. ===== Vipaka is a type of citta which includes the cetasikas: - vedana (feeling) - sanna (perception) - cetana (coordinating role only, in a vipaka citta there is no "willing" that creates kamma) - ekaggata (focus) - jivitindriya (life) - manasikara (attention) ===== > What about reactions of craving and aversion? They, themselves, are > not cetana. Does that mean they are vipaka and not kamma? That seems right to > me: Craving and aversion are vipaka, but cetana having the craving or > aversion as condition would be new, akusala kamma. ===== The Buddha said, "Cetana is kamma, thus I say, O monks; for as soon as cetana arises, one does the action, be it by body, speech or mind." Likewise in the technical analysis of the Paticcasamuppada, kamma is equated with the cetasika cetana. An important clarification here. In every citta, cetana arises and has a role of coordinating the various cetasikas and citta to work as a team. Only in javana cittas (those with roots), does cetana have an additional responsibility of "willing" and thereby creating kamma. The commentary likens cetana to "a boss who directs workers and also does his shere of the work as well; it is exceedingly energetic." In other words, in vipaka or kiriya cittas, cetana is only a boss (coordinating role only). In akusala or kusala cittas, cetana also does his share of the work (exceedingly energetic). You have correctly identified craving (lobha) and aversion (dosa) as "reactions"; they are not part of vipaka citta. Lobha and dosa are "roots" and vipaka cittas are rootless. All types of "reactions" (akusala and kusala) are javana cittas and create kamma. ===== > One other question: Does the restriction of the term 'kamma vipaka' to > mental phenomena occur in the Sutta Pitaka? And does the term 'kammaja-rupa' > occur in the Sutta Pitaka? ===== Sorry, don't know. Metta, Rob M :-) 19716 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements --- Dear howard, RobM gave many useful details. The realm of birth and also the sense organs such as eye base, ear base, heart base, tongue base are all conditioned by kamma. Someone may have excellent eyesight because of the good kamma that conditioned the eye base but at various times experience unsightly objects - The mental experience is at those moments akusala vipaka and the kamma that conditioned that vipaka is different from the kamma that conditioned the eyebase (even though they arise at the same moments). So complex and yet because of ignorance we imagine we are somewhat in control of situations. In fact kamma produces its various results supported by other conditions. By understanding this there is some detachment from the ups and downs of life, the puppet masters (craving and delusion) perhaps start to be glimpsed. Without this profound detachment based on understanding there will always be a fighting or a flowing with the flood of samsara- based on the view of self . I believe the path of insight is one of comprehending these conditioned factors and that means a gradual crossing of the flood. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 2/17/03 4:33:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > > Vipaka is a term that applies to the mental result of kamma. But > > kamma also produces some rupa - as has been said many times on this > > forum - such as eye base(cakkhu pasada ) etc. These phenomena > > although conditioned by kamma are not called vipaka. > > Robert > > > ========================== > So, Robert, you are saying that various sorts of dhamma arise with > kamma as condition, but only mental results are called vipaka? But isn't the > realm of one's birth a basic case of kamma vipaka? The realm of birth doesn't > strike me as a mental phenomenon. > > With metta, > Howard 19717 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Rob - In a message dated 2/17/03 8:20:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I find the "cause - effect" approach to kamma to be misleading. Let > me propose a different perpective on kamma. > > Every microsecond, millions of javana cittas in millions of thought > processes arise. The cetana cetasika in each javana citta does two > things: > - Creates a kammic seed > - Reinforces an accumulation (mental habit) > > Since many of the kammic seeds can last multiple lifetimes, we all > have a gazillion kammic seeds waiting for the right conditions to > arise so that they can develop into vipaka. No matter how "saintly" > we may have been, we all have lots of "this-lifetime-ending kammic > seeds" hanging around waiting for the right conditions to arise. > > On 9-11, for a few thousand people, conditions arose which > allowed "this-lifetime-ending kammic seeds" to develop. > > Though, technically, there was a cause-effect relationship between > the specific volitional activity and the "this-lifetime-ending > vipaka", trying to understand this relationship is well beyond me. I > believe that this is one of the stages of understanding that the > Buddha developed on the night of His enlightenment. > > I find it useful to contemplate that cetana also reinforces an > accumulation. What happens to us happens because of conditions and > kammic seeds. How we react to what happens to us (and the new kammic > seeds that we create) is dependent on our accumulations. > > Comments? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I have a couple. The word 'vipaka' means result. In what way was the dieing of the 3000 the result of their previous kamma? I can understand how a kammic seed might result in a particular mental state under appropriate conditions, but I do not see how it results in an event such as that of 9-11. When and if Bin Laden is incarcerated for his crimes, I will see that event as kammaja-rupa, because the incarceration will have resulted, in part, from his original criminal action. I cannot say the same for the death of the 3000 - not because they had not committed akusala kamma at some point in the past that had not yet come to fruition (we all have such), but because there just is no connection between the kammic seed and the alleged result. A friend of mine arrived at the first tower minutes after it was hit, and was sent away. He had arrived late because something had come up to delay him. Others who died that day, such as the grandson of a friend of the family, had not been delayed. Did my friend's "good kamma" delay him? Did it "know" what was going to happen? Is kamma a god-like force? My answer to each of these three questions is "no". I do not deny such things as "this-lifetime-ending kammic seeds". I only insist on relatedness, connectedness, and mechanisms for occurrence. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19718 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi, Rob - In a message dated 2/17/03 8:59:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > So, one should understand kamma vipaka as mental, including > such > >things as feelings (with some things being felt as pleasant, > others as > >unpleasant, and still others as neutral), interest (or lack of) > with regard > >to particular phenomena, and attention (or lack thereof) with > regard to > >particular phenomena - this last would include tending to notice > some things > >but not others. > > ===== > > Vipaka is a type of citta which includes the cetasikas: > - vedana (feeling) > - sanna (perception) > - cetana (coordinating role only, in a vipaka citta there is > no "willing" that creates kamma) > - ekaggata (focus) > - jivitindriya (life) > - manasikara (attention) > > ===== > > > What about reactions of craving and aversion? They, > themselves, are > >not cetana. Does that mean they are vipaka and not kamma? That > seems right to > >me: Craving and aversion are vipaka, but cetana having the craving > or > >aversion as condition would be new, akusala kamma. > > ===== > > The Buddha said, "Cetana is kamma, thus I say, O monks; for as soon > as cetana arises, one does the action, be it by body, speech or > mind." Likewise in the technical analysis of the Paticcasamuppada, > kamma is equated with the cetasika cetana. > > An important clarification here. In every citta, cetana arises and > has a role of coordinating the various cetasikas and citta to work > as a team. Only in javana cittas (those with roots), does cetana > have an additional responsibility of "willing" and thereby creating > kamma. The commentary likens cetana to "a boss who directs workers > and also does his shere of the work as well; it is exceedingly > energetic." In other words, in vipaka or kiriya cittas, cetana is > only a boss (coordinating role only). In akusala or kusala cittas, > cetana also does his share of the work (exceedingly energetic). > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Good. I've learned something here! -------------------------------------------------- > > You have correctly identified craving (lobha) and aversion (dosa) > as "reactions"; they are not part of vipaka citta. Lobha and dosa > are "roots" and vipaka cittas are rootless. All types of "reactions" > (akusala and kusala) are javana cittas and create kamma. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh. Okay. As I think about it, I realize that there is, indeed, cetana involved with craving and aversion. There is the will to grasp and the will to push away. In fact, this is *very* clear. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------ > > ===== > > > One other question: Does the restriction of the term 'kamma > vipaka' to > >mental phenomena occur in the Sutta Pitaka? And does the > term 'kammaja-rupa' > >occur in the Sutta Pitaka? > > ===== > > Sorry, don't know. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > =============================== Thanks, Rob. I've learned much from this post of yours! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19719 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi, Robert - In a message dated 2/17/03 9:06:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > --- > Dear howard, > RobM gave many useful details. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I heartily agree! ----------------------------------------------- The realm of birth and also the sense > > organs such as eye base, ear base, heart base, tongue base are all > conditioned by kamma. Someone may have excellent eyesight because of > the good kamma that conditioned the eye base but at various times > experience unsightly objects - The mental experience is at those > moments akusala vipaka and the kamma that conditioned that vipaka is > different from the kamma that conditioned the eyebase (even though > they arise at the same moments). So complex and yet because of > ignorance we imagine we are somewhat in control of situations. In > fact kamma produces its various results supported by other > conditions. > By understanding this there is some detachment from the ups and downs > of life, the puppet masters (craving and delusion) perhaps start to > be glimpsed. > Without this profound detachment based on understanding there will > always be a fighting or a flowing with the flood of samsara- based on > the view of self . I believe the path of insight is one of > comprehending these conditioned factors and that means a gradual > crossing of the flood. > RobertK > ============================ Thanks, Robert. Very helpful. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19720 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > > As Nina said, there are other tests in life of > greater significance. > I would chirp, there are other more useful things to be developed than driving or cooking skills, but they are based on results of kamma / accumulations anyway... kom 19721 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, I have a couple. The word 'vipaka' means result. In what way was > the dieing of the 3000 the result of their previous kamma? I can understand > how a kammic seed might result in a particular mental state under appropriate > conditions, but I do not see how it results in an event such as that of 9-11. ===== Let's consider what happened to a single victim. They were sitting down at their desk, starting to work with a gazillion kammic seeds. An airplane hits the tower and creates a condition. Because of that condition (among other conditions), the kammic seed which can end this lifetime arises for that individual. Everybody in the world (including the 3000 victims of 9-11) has lifetime-ending kammic seeds. In the case of 9-11, the airplane was a common condition for many of these kammic seed to develop at roughly the same time. The sun, rain, soil and seasons are common conditions that impact all of the seeds in the forest at the same time. The type of tree that grows in the forest depends on the seeds, but all seeds need sun, rain, soil and seasons. Each of the 9-11 victims had a different set kammic seeds caused by different past volitional activities. However, all of these people (and all other people) have, at some time or other in their past lifetimes, performed some kind of volitional activity which created a "lifetime-ending kammic seed". ===== > When and if Bin Laden is incarcerated for his crimes, I will see that event > as kammaja-rupa, because the incarceration will have resulted, in part, from > his original criminal action. ===== I think it might be a dangerous over-simplification to link Bin Landen's possible incarceration to the workings of kamma. ===== I cannot say the same for the death of the 3000 > - not because they had not committed akusala kamma at some point in the past > that had not yet come to fruition (we all have such), but because there just > is no connection between the kammic seed and the alleged result. ===== The kammic seed could have been created many lifetimes in the past. The result (lifetime ending vipaka) must have been connected to the original kammic seed, though only a Buddha can see the connection. Again, I think that we are getting caught up in a "cause - effect" paradigm. That is one way of looking at kamma - vipaka, but only a Buddha can understand kamma clearly from this perspective. I find the paradigm of "conditions" to be more satisfying. ===== > A friend of mine arrived at the first tower minutes after it was hit, > and was sent away. He had arrived late because something had come up to delay > him. Others who died that day, such as the grandson of a friend of the > family, had not been delayed. Did my friend's "good kamma" delay him? Did it > "know" what was going to happen? Is kamma a god-like force? My answer to each > of these three questions is "no". I do not deny such things as > "this-lifetime-ending kammic seeds". I only insist on relatedness, > connectedness, and mechanisms for occurrence. ===== Your friend's "good kamma" did not delay him. Conditions arose which caused your friend to be delayed. Had those delaying conditions not arisen, it is possible that your friend would have had this lifetime ended because he would have encountered the condition of the airplane. Conditions arise naturally, like the weather. Conditions don't look at the past actions of individuals and decide how to respond. The rain soaks everybody. Does this help Howard? Metta, Rob M :-) 19722 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Rob - In a message dated 2/17/03 10:30:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Yes, I have a couple. The word 'vipaka' means result. In > what way was > >the dieing of the 3000 the result of their previous kamma? I can > understand > >how a kammic seed might result in a particular mental state under > appropriate > >conditions, but I do not see how it results in an event such as > that of 9-11. > > ===== > > Let's consider what happened to a single victim. They were sitting > down at their desk, starting to work with a gazillion kammic seeds. > An airplane hits the tower and creates a condition. Because of that > condition (among other conditions), the kammic seed which can end > this lifetime arises for that individual. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Rob, that victim was engulfed by the explosion of the fuel contained in a fully fueled transcontinental airplane, or was buried under tons of rubble. That was quite enough to kill him. No fruiting seed was required in addition! Rob, he was KILLED! --------------------------------------------------- > > Everybody in the world (including the 3000 victims of 9-11) has > lifetime-ending kammic seeds. In the case of 9-11, the airplane was > a common condition for many of these kammic seed to develop at > roughly the same time. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Their seeds did nothing, Rob. ---------------------------------------------------- > > The sun, rain, soil and seasons are common conditions that impact > all of the seeds in the forest at the same time. The type of tree > that grows in the forest depends on the seeds, but all seeds need > sun, rain, soil and seasons. > > Each of the 9-11 victims had a different set kammic seeds caused by > different past volitional activities. However, all of these people > (and all other people) have, at some time or other in their past > lifetimes, performed some kind of volitional activity which created > a "lifetime-ending kammic seed". > > ===== > > >When and if Bin Laden is incarcerated for his crimes, I will see > that event > >as kammaja-rupa, because the incarceration will have resulted, in > part, from > >his original criminal action. > > ===== > > I think it might be a dangerous over-simplification to link Bin > Landen's possible incarceration to the workings of kamma. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: You could be right in this. ------------------------------------------------- > > ===== > > I cannot say the same for the death of the 3000 > >- not because they had not committed akusala kamma at some point > in the past > >that had not yet come to fruition (we all have such), but because > there just > >is no connection between the kammic seed and the alleged result. > > ===== > > The kammic seed could have been created many lifetimes in the past. > The result (lifetime ending vipaka) must have been connected to the > original kammic seed, though only a Buddha can see the connection. > > Again, I think that we are getting caught up in a "cause - effect" > paradigm. That is one way of looking at kamma - vipaka, but only a > Buddha can understand kamma clearly from this perspective. I find > the paradigm of "conditions" to be more satisfying. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Why am I reminded of statements to the effect "God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform!"? I find this "condition analysis" to be meaningless. I don't buy it in the slightest. ------------------------------------------------ > > ===== > > > A friend of mine arrived at the first tower minutes after > it was hit, > >and was sent away. He had arrived late because something had come > up to delay > >him. Others who died that day, such as the grandson of a friend of > the > >family, had not been delayed. Did my friend's "good kamma" delay > him? Did it > >"know" what was going to happen? Is kamma a god-like force? My > answer to each > >of these three questions is "no". I do not deny such things as > >"this-lifetime-ending kammic seeds". I only insist on relatedness, > >connectedness, and mechanisms for occurrence. > > ===== > > Your friend's "good kamma" did not delay him. Conditions arose which > caused your friend to be delayed. Had those delaying conditions not > arisen, it is possible that your friend would have had this lifetime > ended because he would have encountered the condition of the > airplane. Conditions arise naturally, like the weather. Conditions > don't look at the past actions of individuals and decide how to > respond. The rain soaks everybody. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with all you just wrote, Rob. I couldn't have said it better! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- > > Does this help Howard? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, the last stuff you wrote did! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19723 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) Hi Howard, Looks like we disagree again! This is great! I have never learned anything from anybody who agreed with me. I really enjoyed the exchange the last time that we disagreed. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Rob, that victim was engulfed by the explosion of the fuel contained > in a fully fueled transcontinental airplane, or was buried under tons of > rubble. That was quite enough to kill him. No fruiting seed was required in > addition! Rob, he was KILLED! > --------------------------------------------------- ===== The fire or rubble impacted the victim's body. The death (cuti) citta arose because conditions (including what happened to the body) allowed it to arise. There cannot be death without a cuti citta. The falling away of the cuti citta was a condition for the arising of the patisandhi (rebirth linking) citta which started a new lifetime. I apologize if the analytical approach that I am taking to such an emotionally-charged incident seems insensitive. ===== > > > > Everybody in the world (including the 3000 victims of 9-11) has > > lifetime-ending kammic seeds. In the case of 9-11, the airplane was > > a common condition for many of these kammic seed to develop at > > roughly the same time. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Their seeds did nothing, Rob. > ---------------------------------------------------- ===== Their seeds developed into vipaka (whatever happens to us is vipaka). That is all that seeds ever do. ===== > > The kammic seed could have been created many lifetimes in the past. > > The result (lifetime ending vipaka) must have been connected to the > > original kammic seed, though only a Buddha can see the connection. > > > > Again, I think that we are getting caught up in a "cause - effect" > > paradigm. That is one way of looking at kamma - vipaka, but only a > > Buddha can understand kamma clearly from this perspective. I find > > the paradigm of "conditions" to be more satisfying. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Why am I reminded of statements to the effect "God works in mysterious > ways his wonders to perform!"? I find this "condition analysis" to be > meaningless. I don't buy it in the slightest. > ------------------------------------------------ ===== To me, the statement "God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform!" brings with it certain connotations: 1. God has an "agenda" 2. God does not mean for us to understand His agenda 3. God takes actions to implement His agenda 4. Outcomes are according to God's agenda (not our responsibility) My Buddhist perspective is: 1. There is no "agenda"; simply laws of nature 2. Beings such as ourselves, with lots of dust in our eyes, cannot understand the laws of nature, but the laws of nature can be comprehended (when we reach Buddhahood). 3. It is a law of nature that when conditions are met, a seed can develop. The development of a seed is not the "will of God", it is not the "will of the seed" and it is not the "will of the conditions"; it is simply a law of nature. 4. Outcomes (our current situation) is vipaka It is through conditions that the links of Dependent Origination are connected, not through cause-effect relationships. As an example, let's take the first link, "Through ignorance are conditioned the karma-formations" (WARNING, I AM ABOUT TO GET TECHNICAL): Ignorance is moha in the 12 akusala cittas. Kamma-formations refers to the active formation of wholesome or unwholesome kamma through volitional activities. There are three types of kamma-formations: - demeritorious (cetana in 12 akusala cittas) - meritorious (cetana in 8 kamavacara kusala cittas and 5 rupavacara kusala cittas) - imperturbable (cetana in 4 arupavacara kusala cittas) Ignorance conditions kusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: - Object Condition: When one comprehends by means of insight that ignorance leads to unhappy states (kamavacara and rupavacara) - Natural Decisive Support Condition: When ignorance (conceit, vanity, etc.) motivates one to good deeds (kamavacara, rupavacara and arupavacara) Delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: - Root Condition: Moha is a root of all akusala cittas - Object Condition: When one is deluded into thinking that ignorance is a happy state - Object Predominance Condition / Decisive Support of Object Condition: When one remembers a past akusala (deluded) state but does not see it as akusala - Proximity Condition / Contiguity Condition: There is no separation in time or space between the arising of moha and the arising of the associated citta and cetasikas - Co-nascence Condition: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas arise together - Mutuality Condition: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas mutually support and mutually reinforce each other - Support Condition: Moha supports the other akusala cetasikas - Natural Decisive Support Condition: Moha, together with greed or aversion, motivate one to perform bad deeds - Repetition Condition: Moha in the first akusala javana citta conditions delusion in the second and so on - Association Condition: Moha is associated with its cittas and cetasikas through a common base, common base, common arising and common falling away - Presence Condition / Non-Disappearance Condition: The presence of moha allows the citta and other cetasikas to arise - Absence Condition / Disappearance Condition: When the first akusala javana citta falls away, this creates the condition for the second akusala javana citta to arise (up to the seventh akusala javana citta) Howard, the above analysis is a bit technical, but I wanted to illustrate that conditions and "condition analaysis" is at the core of Dependent Origination, not cause-effect. I am human in this lifetime. Why? Not because of a "God", but rather because conditions arose at the end of my previous lifetime which allowed an appropriate kammic seed to develop. I do not have the insight to know what those conditions were or what past volitional action I did to create that kammic seed. I'm okay with that. Howard, I think that I can I summarize our difference of opinion as follows: - Howard wants to take a cause-effect approach to understanding kamma - Howard feels that a conditions approach to kamma may be technically accurate, but is of limited value - Rob wants to take a conditions approach to understanding kamma - Rob feels that a cause-effect approach to kamma may be technically accurate, but is of limited value Howard, have I correctly interpreted your position? Metta, Rob M :-) 19724 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:12am Subject: Howard's Access Concentration? Dear Howard How are you? You wrote: "With meditation on the body (on the breath and bodily sensations) I often reach access concentration, and *possibly* the 1st jhana on occasion, but it was only via mantra meditation that I ever got beyond this level. (I seem to have an affinity towards sound.)" It is quite intriguing to hear that you have often reached access concentration (upacaa samaadhi). As Buddhaghosa said in Visuddhimaggo, it is very difficult for a human being to reach even the level of access concentration, let alone the jhaana level. But, you also said that you used mantra (an alien approach in the Buddha's teachnings) to go beyond the level of access concentration, I wonder if you could describe the signs of your access concentration. And, as you teach mathematics (and sciences?) and are likely to follow the scientific method in your profession, I also wonder if you have tested your concentration if it was indeed an access concentration. If you haven't already done so, you could follow the following procedure to test your concentration. Hypothesis - "The upacaa samaadhi is transferable." Prediction - "You must be able to generate the signs of upacca samaadhi with any standard meditational object." Test - Use one of the ten kasi.na objects as your meditational object. Evaluate - Check the signs of your concentration in your test against those described in Visuddhimaggo. If you could generate the same signs described in Visuddhimaggo, then your concentration is indeed upaccaa samaadhi. Otherwise, it is not access concentration. Looking forward to your test results, and good luck to you! With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Larry - A word/sound pattern is only one possibility for meditation subject, and, in fact, I think it may *not* have been among the 40 that the Buddha listed. It is the case that my one unambiguously jhanic experience, which had elements of 5th and 6th jhana, happens to have been induced by mantra meditation. With meditation on the body (on the breath and bodily sensations) I often reach access concentration, and *possibly* the 1st jhana on occasion, but it was only via mantra meditation that I ever got beyond this level. (I seem to have an affinity towards sound.) With metta, Howard 19725 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Howard, Thanks for your reply and the second post of your self-correction. Could you explain more clearly how Pannatti does arise and how it passess away? When someone says in Japanese,one who knows it understands it.The same meaning again is said by the other person in Mandarin,one using it will well understand it.If the same sentence is said in Panjabi then the same thing will happen.At that particular moment one who knows all these languages will understand it only in one sense (meaning,essence). One who have enough power(Jhana and has Paracitta-vijjanana) will know the meaning without language.Pannatti is a matter of debate I think.How will you explain all about these? With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - >Pannatta is not a real thing or it is not a Paramattha Sacca.It has no lifespan.It does not arise or pass away ... then ... But, of course, there *are* concepts. > Whenever we think of a tree or a table or a house, there is a concept, and > whenever we "see" one of these, we are applying a concept as a template to a > bundle of just-passed visual experiences. Both the concepts themselves and > the application of them to "bundles of just-passed experiences" actually > occur. So, there *are* pa~n~natti in the sense of mentally constructed > phenomena that are used as templates applied to aggregates of direct > experiences. These pa~n~natti DO arise and pass away, for they exist and are > conditioned, and all conditioned dhammas are impermanent! > Now, the word 'pa~n~natta' is *also* used for the alleged *referent* > of a concept. Even when that is a paramattha dhamma, it is not an existent in > the mode that it is grasped by the pa~n~natta, for that mode of (conceptual) > grasping is merely indirect and inferential. Of course, the referent of a > *complex* concept such as 'tree' isn't even amenable to direct experiencing > but *only* via the mental construct of 'tree'. But the conventional tree is > not nothing at all, because it is based on an aggregate of actual, > interrelated, direct experiences. Conventional objects such as trees, though > not existing *as such*, independent of our conceptualization, still can be > considered to be impermanent; to the extent that they exist, which is merely > conventional, they are derivatively impermanent, because the underlying > "realities" are impermanent. The "tree" is seen to grow from a seed, to > constantly change, with leaves growing and falling off, with branches > accupying varying conditions - swaying in the breeze. That is all, of course, > merely a conventional manner of speaking, but it reflects the reality of the > impermanence of the paramattha dhammas underlying "the tree". I think we > tread on dangerous ground when we speak of things other than nibbana as > neither arising nor ceasing. > > With metta, > Howard 19726 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) Hi, Rob - In a message dated 2/18/03 12:31:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Looks like we disagree again! This is great! I have never learned > anything from anybody who agreed with me. I really enjoyed the > exchange the last time that we disagreed. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >--------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Rob, that victim was engulfed by the explosion of the fuel > contained > >in a fully fueled transcontinental airplane, or was buried under > tons of > >rubble. That was quite enough to kill him. No fruiting seed was > required in > >addition! Rob, he was KILLED! > >--------------------------------------------------- > > ===== > > The fire or rubble impacted the victim's body. The death (cuti) > citta arose because conditions (including what happened to the body) > allowed it to arise. There cannot be death without a cuti citta. The > falling away of the cuti citta was a condition for the arising of > the patisandhi (rebirth linking) citta which started a new lifetime. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand what you are saying here, Rob. But let me point out something: What is happening is that the kammic seed is "discharged" as a result of the death occurring, but the death occurred because of the explosion or rubble. The seed didn't contribute to the death. There is no means for it to have done so. It didn't "put" the victim at that particular place, at that particular time, in order for the death to occur! The original kamma which produced the "seed" had no effect on the death occurring - the actions (kamma) of the Al Qaida hijackers took care of that! The cuti citta arose because of life-terminating conditions. Are you proposing that the same massive explosion or tons of rubble would have failed to produce death were there no "seed" present? If so, I'd like to know how that would be so. [On the other hand, if the whole kammic business amounted to 1) an original bad deed (say killing) had been done, 2) a "seed" was produced as result, and 3) when appropriate conditions occurred, the "seed" was released, then the kamma had no effect on a conventional event - it merely produced something (the "seed") which subsequently ceased, and it might as well be ignored.] ----------------------------------------------------- > > I apologize if the analytical approach that I am taking to such an > emotionally-charged incident seems insensitive. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not at all. That is not an issue in the slightest. ------------------------------------------------------- > > ===== > >> > >>Everybody in the world (including the 3000 victims of 9-11) has > >>lifetime-ending kammic seeds. In the case of 9-11, the airplane > was > >>a common condition for many of these kammic seed to develop at > >>roughly the same time. > >> > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Their seeds did nothing, Rob. > >---------------------------------------------------- > > ===== > > Their seeds developed into vipaka (whatever happens to us is > vipaka). That is all that seeds ever do. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Exactly what vipaka? What was the effect of the seed, and how was that effect accomplished (by the *seed*, not by conditions that would have done the same thing without any seed)? ------------------------------------------------------------ > > ===== > > >>The kammic seed could have been created many lifetimes in the > past. > >>The result (lifetime ending vipaka) must have been connected to > the > >>original kammic seed, though only a Buddha can see the > connection. > >> > >>Again, I think that we are getting caught up in a "cause - > effect" > >>paradigm. That is one way of looking at kamma - vipaka, but only > a > >>Buddha can understand kamma clearly from this perspective. I > find > >>the paradigm of "conditions" to be more satisfying. > >------------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Why am I reminded of statements to the effect "God works in > mysterious > >ways his wonders to perform!"? I find this "condition analysis" to > be > >meaningless. I don't buy it in the slightest. > >------------------------------------------------ > > ===== > > To me, the statement "God works in mysterious ways his wonders to > perform!" brings with it certain connotations: > 1. God has an "agenda" > 2. God does not mean for us to understand His agenda > 3. God takes actions to implement His agenda > 4. Outcomes are according to God's agenda (not our responsibility) > > My Buddhist perspective is: > 1. There is no "agenda"; simply laws of nature > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: If we are talking about "natural laws", we should know something about the details of how they work. -------------------------------------------------------- > 2. Beings such as ourselves, with lots of dust in our eyes, cannot > understand the laws of nature, but the laws of nature can be > comprehended (when we reach Buddhahood). > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep. Leave it to God. (Rob, we can understand other laws of nature in great detail. why can we not understand how a kammic seed is needed for the death of one blown to pieces by a massive explosion?) ------------------------------------------------------- > 3. It is a law of nature that when conditions are met, a seed can > develop. The development of a seed is not the "will of God", it is > not the "will of the seed" and it is not the "will of the > conditions"; it is simply a law of nature. > 4. Outcomes (our current situation) is vipaka > > It is through conditions that the links of Dependent Origination are > connected, not through cause-effect relationships. As an example, > let's take the first link, "Through ignorance are conditioned the > karma-formations" (WARNING, I AM ABOUT TO GET TECHNICAL): > > Ignorance is moha in the 12 akusala cittas. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I thought it was ignorance of the four noble truths and of the tilakkhana. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Kamma-formations refers to the active formation of wholesome or > unwholesome kamma through volitional activities. There are three > types of kamma-formations: > - demeritorious (cetana in 12 akusala cittas) > - meritorious (cetana in 8 kamavacara kusala cittas and 5 > rupavacara kusala cittas) > - imperturbable (cetana in 4 arupavacara kusala cittas) > > Ignorance conditions kusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: > - Object Condition: When one comprehends by means of insight that > ignorance leads to unhappy states (kamavacara and rupavacara) > - Natural Decisive Support Condition: When ignorance (conceit, > vanity, etc.) motivates one to good deeds (kamavacara, rupavacara > and arupavacara) > > Delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: > - Root Condition: Moha is a root of all akusala cittas > - Object Condition: When one is deluded into thinking that > ignorance is a happy state > - Object Predominance Condition / Decisive Support of Object > Condition: When one remembers a past akusala (deluded) state but > does not see it as akusala > - Proximity Condition / Contiguity Condition: There is no > separation in time or space between the arising of moha and the > arising of the associated citta and cetasikas > - Co-nascence Condition: Moha and the associated citta and > cetasikas arise together > - Mutuality Condition: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas > mutually support and mutually reinforce each other > - Support Condition: Moha supports the other akusala cetasikas > - Natural Decisive Support Condition: Moha, together with greed or > aversion, motivate one to perform bad deeds > - Repetition Condition: Moha in the first akusala javana citta > conditions delusion in the second and so on > - Association Condition: Moha is associated with its cittas and > cetasikas through a common base, common base, common arising and > common falling away > - Presence Condition / Non-Disappearance Condition: The presence of > moha allows the citta and other cetasikas to arise > - Absence Condition / Disappearance Condition: When the first > akusala javana citta falls away, this creates the condition for the > second akusala javana citta to arise (up to the seventh akusala > javana citta) > > Howard, the above analysis is a bit technical, but I wanted to > illustrate that conditions and "condition analaysis" is at the core > of Dependent Origination, not cause-effect. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand the difference between conditionality and causality as a substantial "force". Let me repeat here what I wrote to Connie: *************************************** What I mean by a "causal connection" is a relationship the four main characteristics of which are (taken from Samyutta Nikaya 2.25, and as reported by Kalupahana) the following: "... objectivity (tathata), necessity (avitathata), invariability (ana~n~nathata), and conditionality or interdependence (idappaccayata). It is a relation of the general form of dependent origination: When there is this, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. When this is not, neither is that. With the cessation of this, that ceases. [S.II.28,65] Causality in this sense does not require some hidden "causal power", but only the objectivity, necessity, invariability, and conditionality of the relationship between the conditions and their result. ******************************************* > > I am human in this lifetime. Why? Not because of a "God", but rather > because conditions arose at the end of my previous lifetime which > allowed an appropriate kammic seed to develop. I do not have the > insight to know what those conditions were or what past volitional > action I did to create that kammic seed. I'm okay with that. > > Howard, I think that I can I summarize our difference of opinion as > follows: > - Howard wants to take a cause-effect approach to understanding > kamma > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: True, if one understands "cause-effect" in the correct sense. ------------------------------------------------------ > - Howard feels that a conditions approach to kamma may be > technically accurate, but is of limited value > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not true. I consider the "conditions approach" to kamma-vipaka (as you have described it) as one which makes the kamma-vipaka relation entirely worthless and of no interest or relevance! ;-)) -------------------------------------------------------- > - Rob wants to take a conditions approach to understanding kamma --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. --------------------------------------------------------- > - Rob feels that a cause-effect approach to kamma may be > technically accurate, but is of limited value ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, there is some nice symmetry here! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard, have I correctly interpreted your position? > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Please see my previous comments in this regard. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is one final point I'd like to make, Rob. The Buddha stated clearly and repeatedly that not all that happens to one is due to one's own kamma. He specifically gave *assault by others* as one alternative. That fits the situation we are discussing quite well. Why is this being ignored? Was the Buddha wrong? ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19727 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:07am Subject: (5) Nibbana As Absolute Peace Dear Dhamma Friends, It is totally impossible to describe Nibbana.It is unthinkable,unimaginable but it can surely be experienced by an individual who has enough Parami and has passed through the necessary path at least three stages. Peace itself is not enough to describe Nibbana and even absolute peace is not a synonym for Nibbana even though I give the heading like this.Most people wrongly interpret Nibbana with some irrelevant matters. Mere absence of Dukkha is not Nibbana.Some time ago,people who reached higher Jhanacittas presumed their achievement as near Nibbana or true Nibbana.Even worse,the highest Jhanacitta that is the fourth Arupajhanacitta is extremely quiet and calms to the best.So it might be confused with Nibbana.This view is totally wrong.If a Puthujana obtains that Arupajhana he will be born(that means he will exist in his next existance) as Arupa-brahma in which case as he is a Puthujana then he will lose his apportunity to attain Sotapattimaggacitta in that Bhumi. To talk about Nibbana is extremely difficult and it is almost impossible to understand. There were a turtle and a fish.They met in an ocean.They both knew well about the water they experienced.One day,the turtle reached the shore and he crept up to the land.Then he learned well about the land.When he return to the ocean met again with the fish and he told all about the land he experienced to the fish. As the fish never experienced the land all he heard from the turtle were all impossible and unthinkable and unimaginable but the land did exist and the turtle really experienced it but the fish could not understand about the land what it meant, what it really was,and so on.He asked the turtle that whether the land was wet,the land could be swun through,the land was clear enough so that the light could pass through and so on.And he could not accept what the turtle said and he assumed the land as impossible thing.Actually the fish weighted the knowledge of the land with his own knowledge of the water he was in. Ariyan who experienced Nibbana can talk about Nibbana but Puthujana will never understand with his Lokiyanana.But there exists Nibbana.It can be experienced and there clearly IS the way to attain IT.That is The Noble Eight-fold Path. The practice of Mahasatipathana will one day leads the practitioner to Nibbana.Nibbana is Asankhata so Kamma,Citta,Utu and Ahara cannot affect Nibbana. It can be experienced by Anagamiphala-puggala and Arahattaphalapuggala with their present life for 7 days the process which is called as ''Niroda-samapatta'' even before their Parinibbana. Therefore someone who is suspicious about Nibbana can abolish his by trying to obtain Anagamimaggacitta and practicing ''Niroda- samapatta'' when he will definitely experience Nibbana. May you all have enough Parami to attain Anagamimaggacitta or Arahattamaggacitta and experience Nibbana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 19728 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's Access Concentration? Hi, Suan - To answer your query, I presume the state is access concentration. Whatever it is, it has the following features: Great calm, great joy, great ease of staying on the breath, awareness of other phenomena but not being bothered or distracted by them, and, sometimes, a kind of ecstasy as well. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/18/03 9:14:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > Dear Howard > > How are you? > > You wrote: > > "With meditation on the body (on the breath and bodily sensations) > I often reach access concentration, and *possibly* the 1st jhana on > occasion, but it was only via mantra meditation that I ever got > beyond this level. (I seem to have an affinity towards sound.)" > > It is quite intriguing to hear that you have often reached access > concentration (upacaa samaadhi). > > As Buddhaghosa said in Visuddhimaggo, it is very difficult for a > human being to reach even the level of access concentration, let > alone the jhaana level. > > But, you also said that you used mantra (an alien approach in the > Buddha's teachnings) to go beyond the level of access concentration, > I wonder if you could describe the signs of your access > concentration. > > And, as you teach mathematics (and sciences?) and are likely to > follow the scientific method in your profession, I also wonder if you > have tested your concentration if it was indeed an access > concentration. > > If you haven't already done so, you could follow the following > procedure to test your concentration. > > Hypothesis - "The upacaa samaadhi is transferable." > > Prediction - "You must be able to generate the signs of upacca > samaadhi with any standard meditational object." > > Test - Use one of the ten kasi.na objects as your meditational object. > > Evaluate - Check the signs of your concentration in your test against > those described in Visuddhimaggo. If you could generate the same > signs described in Visuddhimaggo, then your concentration is indeed > upaccaa samaadhi. Otherwise, it is not access concentration. > > Looking forward to your test results, and good luck to you! > > With kind regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > http://www.bodhiology.org > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19729 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, Htoo - In the following you ask "Could you explain more clearly how Pannatti does arise and how it passess away?" No, I don't think I can. I don't quite understand what you are asking for. When I think of a tree, that is the arising of the concept 'tree', and when I cease to think of it, that is the ceasing of hat concept. It is just the same as when I experience hardness, that is the arising of the rupa of hardness, and when I cease to experience it, that is the cessation of it. When I become a better vipassanika, perhaps I will be better able to answer you. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/18/03 9:27:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for your reply and the second post of your self-correction. > Could you explain more clearly how Pannatti does arise and how it > passess away? > > When someone says in Japanese,one who knows it understands it.The > same meaning again is said by the other person in Mandarin,one using > it will well understand it.If the same sentence is said in Panjabi > then > the same thing will happen.At that particular moment one who knows > all these languages will understand it only in one sense > (meaning,essence). > > One who have enough power(Jhana and has Paracitta-vijjanana) will > know the meaning without language.Pannatti is a matter of debate I > think.How will you explain all about these? > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Htoo - > > >Pannatta is not a real thing or it is not a Paramattha Sacca.It has > no lifespan.It does not arise or pass away ... > then ... But, of course, there *are* concepts. > >Whenever we think of a tree or a table or a house, there is a > concept, and > >whenever we "see" one of these, we are applying a concept as a > template to a > >bundle of just-passed visual experiences. Both the concepts > themselves and > >the application of them to "bundles of just-passed experiences" > actually > >occur. So, there *are* pa~n~natti in the sense of mentally > constructed > >phenomena that are used as templates applied to aggregates of > direct > >experiences. These pa~n~natti DO arise and pass away, for they > exist and are > >conditioned, and all conditioned dhammas are impermanent! > > Now, the word 'pa~n~natta' is *also* used for the alleged > *referent* > >of a concept. Even when that is a paramattha dhamma, it is not an > existent in > >the mode that it is grasped by the pa~n~natta, for that mode of > (conceptual) > >grasping is merely indirect and inferential. Of course, the > referent of a > >*complex* concept such as 'tree' isn't even amenable to direct > experiencing > >but *only* via the mental construct of 'tree'. But the conventional > tree is > >not nothing at all, because it is based on an aggregate of actual, > >interrelated, direct experiences. Conventional objects such as > trees, though > >not existing *as such*, independent of our conceptualization, still > can be > >considered to be impermanent; to the extent that they exist, which > is merely > >conventional, they are derivatively impermanent, because the > underlying > >"realities" are impermanent. The "tree" is seen to grow from a > seed, to > >constantly change, with leaves growing and falling off, with > branches > >accupying varying conditions - swaying in the breeze. That is all, > of course, > >merely a conventional manner of speaking, but it reflects the > reality of the > >impermanence of the paramattha dhammas underlying "the tree". I > think we > >tread on dangerous ground when we speak of things other than > nibbana as > >neither arising nor ceasing. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19730 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:07am Subject: concept and insight Dear Jon, In Bgk we learnt that at the second stage of insight even the space in between tiny groups of rupa can be discerned. I understand, because how otherwise could groups be distinguished. Still,I cannot help thinking : In that case, when touching hardness one could experience through the bodysense different groups of rupa. I have a kind of wrong imagination, because it is panna that knows characteristics after touching. I know the answer: when time comes... And as A. Sujin said, we do not have to think of groups. Still, I would like your opinion, and could you bring it up again in Bgk? I found it a difficult subject. Thank you, Nina. 19731 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:07am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 26 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 26 If we want to realize the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, if we want to eradicate defilements and penetrate the four noble Truths, we should carefully consider the Dhamma contained in these stanzas. They deal with the eradication of defilements so that we have forbearing patience. We read: ²Even wise men may quarrel, But quickly they can become closely united again.² Even among wise people there may be reasons for them to be moody and angry, but quickly they can amend for this and become closely united. This is because they are wise. When we have passed away, we have forgotten all the events of this life, but when we are still alive, we still remember what happened. Do we remember events in a wise way or in a foolish way? If we are wise, even though we remember a wrong action which was done, we can forgive. Even though wise people may quarrel, they can quickly become closely united, they can forgive one another. They can become close friends with each other again, they can give support to each other from then on. This is because they understand the Dhamma. With regard to foolish people, they break apart like earthen vessels which are untempered. They are unable to calm down their hatred. We read that the Bodhisatta said: If someone knows the wrong by which he offended someone else, and he expresses in words that he was wrong, both people can live in greater harmony, their friendship cannot be destroyed. We should know the wrong by which we offended someone else and give expression to our wrong. We should not merely know that we were wrong, if we know this but do not give expression to our regret, we are still brooding. Sometimes we may keep on thinking about what happened and be irritated. But if a person who offended someone else and expresses that he was wrong, both people can live in greater harmony, they will understand each other more clearly. There will be no more problems between them, their close friendship cannot be destroyed. We read: If someone, when another person offends him, can cause both to be united in harmony, he is considered as a person who takes upon himself a weighty and worthy task. This means that if a person has forgiven someone else, and the other person, inspite of this, still offends, he can cause both himself and the other person to reconciled and live in harmony, and thus, he is someone who is superior, who fulfills a weighty task. Therefore, someone should really have paññå so that he can consider and see how he should behave in a way which is to the benefit of others. If he lacks paññå, even though the Bodhisatta spoke as in the above-quoted Jåtaka, or the Buddha spoke about beneficial conduct, he will not follow those advices, he will not be inclined to do what is beneficial. 19732 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and concepts Dear Howard and Smallchap, op 15-02-2003 20:52 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> >> op 13-02-2003 20:25 schreef htootintnaing op >> htootintnaing@y...: >>> >>> Aniccata is one of four Lakkhana-rupas. > ============================ H: In fact, it's just a concept, isn't it? We never directly observe > impermanence. (snipped) Likewise, dependent arising > is concept-only. There occur dependently arisen dhammas, but dependent > origination is concept-only. These are, of course, well grounded concepts, > not imaginary, and, in fact, of supreme importance, but they are concepts, > nonetheless. In abhidhamma, everything is either paramattha dhamma or > pa~n~natta. Impermanence and paticcasamupada are pa~n~natti. (All the more > reason to avoid speaking of pa~n~natti as nonexistent, I'd say.) N: The khandhas, impermanence, knowledge of the ownership of kamma (kammasakata ~naa.na), Dependent Origination, they all seem concepts to us, don't they? A good point you bring up here. In Bgk, I said to A. Sujin, that the khandhas seem to be a concept, groups containing a whole of dhammas. She explained that we may think of khandha as a whole, it seems as if it is a concept. It is a concept so long as we have not yet directly experienced the khandhas. When the second stage of insight is reached the khandhas can be directly experienced, dhammas that arise and fall away, that are past, present and future. We were also talking about groups of rupa. A. Sujin said,: ³You do not have to think of a group. We should not try to understand that word. When there is an idea of group, it is thinking. We do not have to count groups. Develop understanding of visible object: it is not the reality that experiences. The nåma experiences it. See the difference between nåma and rúpa. Why should we think of groups? It is a stage of insight knowledge that understands what groups are. People have different abilities. We do not have the wisdom of a Buddha, but that does not mean that all these realities cannot be experienced by insight knowledge." We are bound to have expectations to experience the arising and falling away of realities, however, the Tipitaka points to elimination, to the eradication of defilements. If we think of our progress, we are thinking of ourselves. When there is even one moment of understanding there is no condition to think of ourselves. Each moment of understanding is very precious, we should be grateful to the Buddha who taught us the Dhamma. H: To awaken to the truth of impermanence is actually to lose the belief > in permanence and, ultimately, the sense of permanence with regard to > conditioned dhammas. To awaken to the truth of not-self, is to lose the > belief in (and ultimately the sense of) a core to be found in the "person" or > in any dhamma, to lose the tendency towards reification. At least this is how > I see the matter. N: The question is only, how? To come back to concepts and ideas we have about realities: dependent origination is all about realities, it explains relations between realities. Impermamence: it is a characteristic pertaining to realities. Knowledge of the ownership of kamma: this is directly realized when one has reached a stage of insight. Now, words are still needed to express the characteristics of realities. When time comes, when sufficient conditions have been accumulated, panna can directly experience all that seems a concept just now. Then no words are needed. Yes, for me, it is also very difficult to grasp. The difference between nama and rupa has to be clearly distinguished by panna. Rupa has to be known as rupa, but...you will say that they cannot be separated according to phenomenology. I understand your point of view. What, if you see phenomenology as an enterprise with detachment. You have to start with detachment and detachment is the goal. This is very difficult because it goes against our nature. Panna has to arise with alobha, it accompanies kusala citta with detachment all the way. I would say, no "I" who wants to know, just let it come by conditions. You know the conditions: listening, considering.Theoretical understanding, pariyatti, includes wise consideration of the dhamma one hears.Then you will find out what rupa really is. Different from what you thought at first. Nama is pure nama, no rupa blended in. Hardness does not know anything. When shall we understand that hardness in a rock or in the body is exactly the same? This must lead to detachment. Hardness is a characteristic of rupa, it is unalterable. Now comes Smallchap's question: S: In this case, is it correct to say that one cannot attain udayabbayaanupassanaa-~naa.na (arising and falling away of dhammas) before one attains Nama-rupa-pariccheda-~naa.na, Paccaya-pariggaha-~naa.na, and sammassana~naa.na? N: That is correct. What falls away? One nama or one rupa at a time can be realized as impermament. Citta with panna can know only one object at a time, either a nama or a rupa. We see in all the suttas: six doorways are explained all the time, as being separate. At each following stage of insight there is a little more detachment from the idea of person. Detachment is needed to be aware of what naturally arises. I was reminded in Bgk: if we think, O no, not this object, there can already be wrong practice, silabbata paramasa. May we all help each other to walk the right Path, Nina. 19733 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg]speech Hi Larry, op 16-02-2003 02:55 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks for the clarification. I think I see the difference between > concept and speech. Speech is a reality, an activity that causes > results, while concept is abstract and has no causal function. But > speech is made up of concepts. This is the part I don't understand. Does > Patisambhidamagga have anything to say about the relationship between > speech and concept? N: There is a difference between the rupa speech intimation that hasthe function in conditioning the utterance of speech. As to the contents of speech, this is another subject. We can speak about realities or about ideas or concepts, such as the world, peace, etc. Nina. 19734 From: bodhi342 Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:17am Subject: Re: (5) Nibbana As Absolute Peace Dear Htoo and All, I found your excellent analogy to explain why Nibbana is indescribable, very interesting. All descriptions that try to encompass or capture the essence of the ultimate unconditioned reality necessarily fail. I would like to extend your analogy by considering the following possibilities: That first turtle would 'know' the land from its own experience, and would likely go back there by the same route. That is completely natural, understandable, and indeed, expected. So is its own assumption that only it knows the way to the land. Is it possible for other turtles, or even other animals, say crocodiles, penguins etc. to also have experienced both land and ocean? And if so, could they have got on to the same land at different locations, at different times, using different means? I would encourage calm consideration of the implications of these possibilities because they have both practical application and lend themselves to the type of testing that the Buddha recommended. metta, dharam 19735 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 1:15pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Howard: What I mean by a "causal connection" is a relationship the four main characteristics of which are (taken from Samyutta Nikaya 2.25, and as reported by Kalupahana) the following: "... objectivity (tathata), necessity (avitathata), invariability (ana~n~nathata), and conditionality or interdependence (idappaccayata). Thanks, Howard. I'm not sure what I meant by 'linear relationship', either, but am happy with the above, not that I understand it, but it gives me a direction. I haven't found SN II.25. Would you have it's name by any chance? Sorry, if it's not on-line, in English, I can't read it. Would that be David Kalupahana? peace, connie 19736 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Connie - In a message dated 2/18/03 4:08:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@h... writes: > > Thanks, Howard. > > I'm not sure what I meant by 'linear relationship', either, but am happy > with the above, not that I understand it, but it gives me a direction. > I haven't found SN II.25. Would you have it's name by any chance? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I'm sorry. I know I've seen the sutta, itself, independent of Kalupahana's quoting from it, because I've read the entire Samyutta Nikaya, but I don't recall the name. ------------------------------------------------ > Sorry, if it's not on-line, in English, I can't read it. Would that be > David Kalupahana? -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that's him. -------------------------------------------- > > peace, > connie > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19737 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:13pm Subject: Re: (5) Nibbana As Absolute Peace Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing " wrote: < snip > Mere absence of Dukkha is not Nibbana.Some time ago,people who reached higher Jhanacittas presumed their achievement as near Nibbana or true Nibbana.Even worse,the highest Jhanacitta that is the fourth Arupajhanacitta is extremely quiet and calms to the best.So it might be confused with Nibbana.This view is totally wrong. KKT: But the 9th Jhana, the Cessation of Sensation and Perception, is considered as identical with Nibbana, is it not? Metta, KKT 19738 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi, Robert - In a message dated 2/17/03 4:33:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > kammaja or kamma-samutthána ============================ Is there anything unusual about these terms? Neither could be found in the Pali Text Society's on-line dictionary. (They did appear in Nyanatiloka's dictionary.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19739 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 5:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Dear Howard, I am not sure about the Tipitaka but kammaja and samutthana are common terms in the Abhidhamma commentaries when they explain the different ways matter can arise. http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_6.htm Kammajam upádinnarúpam; itaram anupádinnarúpam. translation " Rupa caused by kamma is grasped at, other types are not grasped at" [So that sensitive matter that makes up our eyes, ears, etc., which are produced by kamma, is especially clung to. (Note that the commentaries also say that other matter is clung to but these kamma produced types are clung to more deeply)] For samutthana, e.g. : . Kammam, cittam, utu, áháro c'áti cattári rúpasamutthánáni náma. Translation: Material phenomena arise in four ways: kamma, citta, temperature, and food. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 2/17/03 4:33:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > > kammaja or kamma-samutthána > ============================ > Is there anything unusual about these terms? Neither could be found in > the Pali Text Society's on-line dictionary. (They did appear in Nyanatiloka's > dictionary.) > 19740 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 5:14pm Subject: Way 52, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1. Clear Comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 65 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html If, when going to his alms collecting place, the bhikkhu's thought of meditation is contemplation on the Buddha's qualities [buddhanussati kammatthanam], he, on arriving at the relic-shrine, enters the shrine's precincts, without having put aside his thought of meditation on the Buddha. But should his thought of meditation be something other than the Buddha-subject, he having stood at the foot of the stairway leading to the shrine-terrace, put by his thought of meditation as if it were goods hand-carried, and acquired the joy begotten of the Buddha-subject of meditation, goes up the stairway. If the relic-shrine is a big one, it should be worshipped at four places, when the bhikkhu has gone round it three times to the right. If it is a small shrine, it should be worshipped by the meditator in eight places when he has gone round it three times to the right just as in the case of the big shrine. By a bhikkhu who, having worshipped a relic-shrine, has reached a Bodhi-tree shrine even the Bodhi-tree should be worshipped. And he should worship the Bodhi-tree showing meek demeanour as though he were in the very presence of the Buddha, the Bhagava. In this way, that monk, having worshipped relic-shrine and Bodhi-tree shrine, goes to the place where he had put by his first subject of meditation, namely, to the bottom of the stairway. There, having taken up the subject of meditation he had put by earlier, and robed himself (with the upper robe and the shoulder cloak held together and worn as one, that is, with the upper robe falling within the shoulder-cloak at all edges), near the village with the thought of meditation uppermost in mind, he enters the village for alms. Then, people, after seeing the bhikkhu, say: "Our venerable one has come," and having gone forward to meet the bhikkhu, taken his bowl, conducted him to the sitting-hall (hall where meals are served to the bhikkhus in a village) or to a house and made him take a seat, offer gruel to him. Thereafter, they wash and anoint his feet, and till rice is ready sit in front of him and ask him questions or become desirous of listening to a talk on the Dhamma from him. Even if the people do not ask him to speak to them on the Dhamma, the commentators say that a talk on the Dhamma should be given to the people in order to help them. The bhikkhus should expound the Dhamma for the purpose of assisting the folk with the grace of the Dhamma, thinking, "If I do not expound the Dhamma to them, who will?" There is no Dhamma-talk separate from the thought of meditation. [Tika] This is said to strengthen the dictum of the commentators mentioned above. Therefore, after expounding the Dhamma even with the thought of meditation uppermost in mind, after partaking of the food, with just the thought of meditation uppermost in mind he leaves the village followed by the people who in spite of his requesting them to stop accompanying him. Then, after turning back those who followed him, he takes the road to his dwelling-place. [T] "After expounding the Dhamma even with the thought of meditation uppermost in mind" = After expounding the Dhamma just in accordance with the character of the thought of meditation that is being attended to by oneself, by way of sticking to that thought. The method of exegesis is the same in regard to the next expression concerning food. After giving thanks. Here too the governing expression is: Even with the thought of meditation uppermost in mind. "Then, just at the place of departure from the village." The point at which the bhikkhu actually gets out of the village. Then, novices and young bhikkhus who had taken their meal outside the village, having left the village earlier than this bhikkhu see this bhikkhu coming. And they, after going forward to meet him, take his bowl and robe. It is said that bhikkhus of old did this duty without looking at the face of the returning bhikkhu and thinking: (this is) our preceptor (or) our teacher. In ancient times, they did this duty according to the arriving-limit (the arriving division, section, or company). As the elder bhikkhu came the younger ones performed this duty not looking to see who the elder was. Those novices and young bhikkhus question the elder thus: "Reverend Sir, who are these people to you? Are they relatives on the maternal side? Are they relatives on the paternal side?" -- "Having seen what, do you query?" -- "Their affection and respect for you." -- "Friends, what even parents find it hard to do these people do for us. Our very robes and bowls are just due to them. Owing to these people we know no fear on occasions of fear and know no lack of food on occasions of famine. There are no people so helpful to us as these folk." Speaking well of these people, thus, he goes. This bhikkhu is spoken of as a person who carries forth (takes along with him) the subject of meditation when he leaves his dwelling but does not return with the thought of meditation. 19741 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Connie and Howard, Here is the sutta Kalupahana referenced: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-020.html Below is the relevant section. I inserted the pali. The translation is slightly different: "Now what is dependent co-arising? From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands -- this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality [idappaccayataa]. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain, & says, 'Look.' From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death. "From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth... "From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming... "From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance... "From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving... "From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling... "From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact... "From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media... "From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form... "From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness... "From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands -- this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain, & says, 'Look.' From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. What's there in this way is a reality [TATHATAA], not an unreality [AVITATHATAA], not other than what it seems [ANA~N~NATHATAA], conditioned by this/that [IDAPPACCAYATAA]. This is called dependent co-arising." Larry ---------------------------------- Howard wrote: I realize that I didn't directly answer this question in my previous reply. What I mean by a "causal connection" is a relationship the four main characteristics of which are (taken from Samyutta Nikaya 2.25, and as reported by Kalupahana) the following: "... objectivity (tathata), necessity (avitathata), invariability (ana~n~nathata), and conditionality or interdependence (idappaccayata). It is a relation of the general form of dependent origination: When there is this, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. When this is not, neither is that. With the cessation of this, that ceases. [S.II.28,65] Causality in this sense does not require some hidden "causal power", but only the objectivity, necessity, invariability, and conditionality of the relationship between the conditions and their result. With metta, Howard 19742 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Thanks, Robert! With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/18/03 8:03:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > I am not sure about the Tipitaka but > kammaja and samutthana are common terms in the Abhidhamma > commentaries when they explain the different ways matter can arise. > http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_6.htm > > Kammajam upádinnarúpam; itaram anupádinnarúpam. > translation " Rupa caused by kamma is grasped at, other types are not > grasped at" > [So that sensitive matter that makes up our eyes, ears, etc., which > are produced by kamma, is especially clung to. (Note that the > commentaries also say that other matter is clung to but these kamma > produced types are clung to more deeply)] > > For samutthana, e.g. : > . Kammam, cittam, utu, áháro c'áti cattári rúpasamutthánáni náma. > Translation: Material phenomena arise in four ways: > kamma, > citta, > temperature, and > food. > Robertk > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Robert - > > > >In a message dated 2/17/03 4:33:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rjkjp1@y... > >writes: > > > >>kammaja or kamma-samutthána > >============================ > > Is there anything unusual about these terms? Neither could > be found in > >the Pali Text Society's on-line dictionary. (They did appear in > Nyanatiloka's > >dictionary.) > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19743 From: robmoult Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Howard: > I understand what you are saying here, Rob. But let me point out > something: What is happening is that the kammic seed is "discharged" as a > result of the death occurring, but the death occurred because of the > explosion or rubble. > The seed didn't contribute to the death. There is no means for it to > have done so. It didn't "put" the victim at that particular place, at that > particular time, in order for the death to occur! The original kamma which > produced the "seed" had no effect on the death occurring - the actions > (kamma) of the Al Qaida hijackers took care of that! The cuti citta arose > because of life-terminating conditions. Are you proposing that the same > massive explosion or tons of rubble would have failed to produce death were > there no "seed" present? If so, I'd like to know how that would be so. [On > the other hand, if the whole kammic business amounted to 1) an original bad > deed (say killing) had been done, 2) a "seed" was produced as result, and 3) > when appropriate conditions occurred, the "seed" was released, then the kamma > had no effect on a conventional event - it merely produced something (the > "seed") which subsequently ceased, and it might as well be ignored.] > ----------------------------------------------------- ===== Howard, you make some excellent points that I need to think about for a bit. ===== > > > ===== > > > > Their seeds developed into vipaka (whatever happens to us is > > vipaka). That is all that seeds ever do. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Exactly what vipaka? What was the effect of the seed, and how was that > effect accomplished (by the *seed*, not by conditions that would have done > the same thing without any seed)? ===== Gotta think about this too. ===== > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > My Buddhist perspective is: > > 1. There is no "agenda"; simply laws of nature > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > If we are talking about "natural laws", we should know something about > the details of how they work. ===== We know the principles that they operate on, but not the details. ===== > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > 2. Beings such as ourselves, with lots of dust in our eyes, cannot > > understand the laws of nature, but the laws of nature can be > > comprehended (when we reach Buddhahood). > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yep. Leave it to God. (Rob, we can understand other laws of nature in > great detail. why can we not understand how a kammic seed is needed for the > death of one blown to pieces by a massive explosion?) ===== As I mentioned, I am thinking about this one :-) ===== > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > 3. It is a law of nature that when conditions are met, a seed can > > develop. The development of a seed is not the "will of God", it is > > not the "will of the seed" and it is not the "will of the > > conditions"; it is simply a law of nature. > > 4. Outcomes (our current situation) is vipaka > > > > It is through conditions that the links of Dependent Origination are > > connected, not through cause-effect relationships. As an example, > > let's take the first link, "Through ignorance are conditioned the > > karma-formations" (WARNING, I AM ABOUT TO GET TECHNICAL): > > > > Ignorance is moha in the 12 akusala cittas. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I thought it was ignorance of the four noble truths and of the > tilakkhana. > ---------------------------------------------------- ===== You are correct; that is a definition of moha in general. When talking about dependent origination, I tend to automatically insert a definition of the link, because it is not always obvious. For example, though "feeling" arises in every citta, when "feeling" is discussed in the context of dependent origination, we are only talking about the vedana cetasika in vipaka cittas. ===== > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I understand the difference between conditionality and causality as a > substantial "force". Let me repeat here what I wrote to Connie: > *************************************** > What I mean by a "causal connection" is a relationship the four main > characteristics of which are (taken from Samyutta Nikaya 2.25, and as > reported by Kalupahana) the following: "... objectivity (tathata), necessity > (avitathata), invariability (ana~n~nathata), and conditionality or > interdependence (idappaccayata). It is a relation of the general form of > dependent origination: > > When there is this, that is. > With the arising of this, that arises. > When this is not, neither is that. > With the cessation of this, that ceases. [S.II.28,65] > > Causality in this sense does not require some hidden "causal power", > but only the objectivity, necessity, invariability, and conditionality of the > > relationship between the conditions and their result. > ******************************************* ===== I am learning here! Thanks. ===== > > > > Howard, I think that I can I summarize our difference of opinion as > > follows: > > - Howard wants to take a cause-effect approach to understanding > > kamma > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > True, if one understands "cause-effect" in the correct sense. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > - Howard feels that a conditions approach to kamma may be > > technically accurate, but is of limited value > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not true. I consider the "conditions approach" to kamma- vipaka (as you > have described it) as one which makes the kamma-vipaka relation entirely > worthless and of no interest or relevance! ;-)) > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > - Rob wants to take a conditions approach to understanding kamma > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay. > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > - Rob feels that a cause-effect approach to kamma may be > > technically accurate, but is of limited value > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, there is some nice symmetry here! ;-)) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There is one final point I'd like to make, Rob. The Buddha stated > clearly and repeatedly that not all that happens to one is due to one's own > kamma. He specifically gave *assault by others* as one alternative. That fits > the situation we are discussing quite well. Why is this being ignored? Was > the Buddha wrong? ===== Thanks for the reminder. I had interpreted this "not everything is due to one's own kamma" as saying that in addition to kamma-niyama, what happens to us can be as a result of utu-niyama or dhamma- niyama. In other words, the reason that it rained on my birthday has nothing to do with my kamma, it was utu-niyama. Perhaps this is the answer to the "fire and rubble" question above. The body was damaged because of dhamma-niyama, the damaged body is unable to support the mind due to dhamma-niyama and this is the condition for the death. Anything that enters though one of the five sense doors (but not ideas entering through the mind-door) must be a result of kamma (vipaka cittas at work in the sense-door citta process). However, not everything happening to us enters though one of the five sense doors. I would like to study this further. Do you have any sutta references (or references in other texts) which talk about "not everything is due to one's own kamma", especially referencing "assault by others". Metta, Rob M :-) 19744 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:06pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hey, Howard ~ Kalupahana says Buddha rejected my idea that "past and the future exist in the present or even the view that a thing exists during the past, the present, and the future as the results of unwarranted interpretation of linguistic usage." His article on 'The Buddhist conception of time and temporality' ends: "Summing up the whole discussion, I may say that (1) early Buddhism presented an empiricist and relativistic conception of time; (2) the Abhidharma scholasticism produced an absolutistic conception mainly because of its speculative approach, and (3) the Maadhyamikas, as a result of their transcendentalism, denied the reality of time." peace, connie 19745 From: robmoult Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:26pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Connie, Mind if I intrude here? It appears as we have Howard as a common friend. In "Dhamma Theory Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma" http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm Y. Karunadasa's made the following comment: Another doctrinal controversy that has left its mark on the Theravada version of the dhamma theory is the one concerning the theory of tri-temporal existence (sarvamastivada). What is revolutionary about this theory, advanced by the Sarvastivadins, is that it introduced a metaphysical dimension to the doctrine of dhammas and thus paved the way for the erosion of its empirical foundation. For this theory makes an empirically unverifiable distinction between the actual being of the dhammas as phenomena and their ideal being as noumena. It assumes that the substances of all dhammas persist in all the three divisions of time -- past, present, and future -- while their manifestations as phenomena are impermanent and subject to change. Accordingly, a dhamma actualizes itself only in the present moment of time, but "in essence" it continues to subsist in all the three temporal periods. As is well known, this resulted in the transformation of the dhamma theory into a svabhavavada, "the doctrine of own-nature." It also paved the way for a veiled recognition, if not for a categorical assumption, of the distinction between substance and quality. What interests us here is the fact that although the Theravadins rejected this metaphysical theory of tri-temporal existence, including its qualified version as accepted by the Kasyapiyas, it was not without its influence on the Theravada version of the dhamma theory. Nyanaponika also has an interesting essay on "The Problem of Time" in his "Abhidhamma Studies". Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Hey, Howard ~ > Kalupahana says Buddha rejected my idea that "past and the future exist > in the present or even the view that a thing exists during the past, the > present, and the future as the results of unwarranted interpretation of > linguistic usage." His article on 'The Buddhist conception of time and > temporality' ends: "Summing up the whole discussion, I may say that > (1) early Buddhism presented an empiricist and relativistic conception > of time; (2) the Abhidharma scholasticism produced an absolutistic > conception mainly because of its speculative approach, and (3) the > Maadhyamikas, as a result of their transcendentalism, denied the reality > of time." > peace, > connie 19746 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:31pm Subject: A Book to everyone>> Dear everyone, I am Kiana. During these holidays I read a book about Buddha. It is "Ten Lifes of the Buddha". I really want to introduce these book to all of you. Because it is very meaningful, and it is written two thousand years ago! There can be many things changed in between two thousand years, but one thing won't change for a really long time is - human nature and the good & bad qualities of humans. In that book, there are many stories, the one that I like the most is "Mahajanaka the Lost Prince". It is about the king who died and the elder prince will be the king but he was jealous of his brother's popularity and tried to kill him. This is human nature. Even nowadays, there are many people jobless and they are fighting for one job, trying to kick the other out and job on his own. I think nothing will be more horrible than human nature. There are more stories and pictures in this book. I think you will enjoy it when you are reading this book. Love, Kiana 19747 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:35pm Subject: I want to learn more about the eight fold path Dear James, Thank you for you letter and for your story that you wrote about how you got into Buddhism. Well, I'm not a Christian and I'm Buddhist. Did I tell you that I'm Thai? If not then there you are! Where in America are you from? I'm sorry to hear about your brother and sister, I think that your brother was on drugs because of his friends. Did your friends ever tell you to try illegal drugging? How old were your siblings when they past away? When I was younger, I wanted to be a Christian because all my friends were (peer pressure) but later on, I realized that just because all my friends were Christian doesn't mean that I should be Christian too. There is just one problem which is that I think my family is too religious....but I think being Buddhist is kind of cool. Do you know about the eight fold path? I had to learn a bit about it last year and I thought it was pretty interesting becasue in the eight fold path it shows the different truths about being alive. Can you tell me a bit more because I don't think I got enough infomation. Thx ;) BYE! From Jan Tanyatip Cheravanont 19748 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Swee Boon, I’m enjoying reading all the other discussions on this thread, how about you? --- "nidive " wrote: > Kamma is hard to understand. When I say "Just this is existence. > There is no self to be found.", I am NOT saying it from an > intellectual point of understanding. And I don't intend to clarify, > because I am unable to clarify it any further by way of words. ..... Ok, no problem. We certainly agree on the “no self to be found” and the importance of kamma condition. ..... > > But I just want to reproduce a sutta quote which James had brought > up before. > > 7. "'Of kamma I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; kamma is > the matrix; kamma is my kinsman; kamma is my refuge. Whatever kamma > I perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be heir.' This must be > reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/protection.html#s1 > > Please reflect, when the Buddha says "Of kamma I am constituted.", ..... Ok, I’m reflecting. This is from the Dasadhamma Sutta, AN bk of 10s (A.v.87) PTS translation gives for these same lines: “I am responsible for my deed (kammassako’mhi), I am the heir to my deed, the womb of my deed, the kinsman of my deed, I am he to whom my deed comes home(kamma-pa.tisara.no).” We can also read similar or same(?) expressions in MN135 (M.203): “..beings are owners of their actions, heirs of their actions; they originate from their actions, are bound to their actions, have their actions as their refuge. It is action that distinguishes as inferior and superior.” In this sutta just as in the commentary about Maha Moggallana, we read in more detail about the effects of kamma. The first example is about the person who kills living beings and is murderous. After death, there is rebirth in ‘an unhappy destination’ such as a hell-plane. If by chance, rebirth is again as a human, life will be short-lived. The reverse applies in each example. For the reverse of this first example, for the one who is gentle and kindly and avoids harm, rebirth is in a heavenly plane or if it is again as a human, life will be long-lived. In other words, we’re reading about the development of wholesome states, avoidance of evil and the results of kusala and akusala kamma patha. ..... > is there an entity called "I"? If there isn't an entity called "I", > then what is that ? How is that different from kamma? ..... The “I” and “people” and so on are of course conventional designations for the stream of namas and rupas - the 3 rounds we’ve discussed recently of kamma vatta, vipaka vatta and kilesa vatta. ..... > Kamma is indeed one reality and one condition amongst many. > Nevertheless, it is the chief reality and chief condition that ties > us to samsara; it itself is samsara. The Buddha singled it out as > one of the ten essentials to be reflected upon again and again by > one who has gone forth. ..... I agree that it’s a very important condition as stressed in this sutta and in the Dasadhamma Sutta (Discourse on the Ten Dhammas or Conditions as it is called in PTS version) Is it the chief condition that ties us to samsara? Perhaps I would suggest the first of the 24 paccaya (root condition) is the chief condition - i.e lobha and moha in particular being the ties. The six roots of lobha, dosa, moha and then alobha, adosa and amoha or panna are referred to as the roots for wholesome and unwholesome consciousness. No kamma can be instigated without roots.They condition the cittas, other mental factors and also associated rupas by being roots. Interesting considerations. ..... > May you reflect well upon kamma again and again. ..... Thanks, Swee Boon. I agree it’s very useful and very deep as Rob M is stressing too. Always glad to hear your ideas. Metta, Sarah ======= 19749 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) Hi, Rob - In a message dated 2/18/03 10:59:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > I would like to study this further. Do you have any sutta references > (or references in other texts) which talk about "not everything is > due to one's own kamma", especially referencing "assault by others". > > ============================ My mind is like a sieve when it comes to remembering sutta references - I'm sorry. But I do recall that at least one such sutta was quoted on DSG. Perhaps someone else will come up with a reference. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19750 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Connie - In a message dated 2/19/03 1:13:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@h... writes: > Hey, Howard ~ > Kalupahana says Buddha rejected my idea that "past and the future exist > in the present or even the view that a thing exists during the past, the > present, and the future as the results of unwarranted interpretation of > linguistic usage." His article on 'The Buddhist conception of time and > temporality' ends: "Summing up the whole discussion, I may say that > (1) early Buddhism presented an empiricist and relativistic conception > of time; (2) the Abhidharma scholasticism produced an absolutistic > conception mainly because of its speculative approach, and (3) the > Maadhyamikas, as a result of their transcendentalism, denied the reality > of time." > peace, > connie > =========================== Thanks! Where is this article available? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) Weight Age Gender Female Male 19751 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Rob (and Connie) - In a message dated 2/19/03 1:33:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Connie, > > Mind if I intrude here? It appears as we have Howard as a common > friend. > > In "Dhamma Theory Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma" > http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm > Y. Karunadasa's made the following comment: > > Another doctrinal controversy that has left its mark on the > Theravada version of the dhamma theory is the one concerning the > theory of tri-temporal existence (sarvamastivada). What is > revolutionary about this theory, advanced by the Sarvastivadins, is > that it introduced a metaphysical dimension to the doctrine of > dhammas and thus paved the way for the erosion of its empirical > foundation. For this theory makes an empirically unverifiable > distinction between the actual being of the dhammas as phenomena and > their ideal being as noumena. It assumes that the substances of all > dhammas persist in all the three divisions of time -- past, present, > and future -- while their manifestations as phenomena are > impermanent and subject to change. Accordingly, a dhamma actualizes > itself only in the present moment of time, but "in essence" it > continues to subsist in all the three temporal periods. As is well > known, this resulted in the transformation of the dhamma theory into > a svabhavavada, "the doctrine of own-nature." It also paved the way > for a veiled recognition, if not for a categorical assumption, of > the distinction between substance and quality. What interests us > here is the fact that although the Theravadins rejected this > metaphysical theory of tri-temporal existence, including its > qualified version as accepted by the Kasyapiyas, it was not without > its influence on the Theravada version of the dhamma theory. > > > > Nyanaponika also has an interesting essay on "The Problem of Time" > in his "Abhidhamma Studies". > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ================================= Thanks for this, Rob. Yes, this "existing throughout time" is characteristic of the Sarvastivadins, and it is clearly substantialist and eternalist. In fact, this is one of the reasons Mahayana schools consider it hinayanist, though some Mahayana schools also ignorantly include Theravada under that pejorative. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19752 From: Jaran Jainhuknan Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:11am Subject: Discussion on Satipatthana at the Foundation week 5 no 2 (13:00min) K Busabongrampai (Q): Continuation of my question from last week, there are 8 maggas arising with lokuttara citta (during the Enlightment) and only 5 or 6 magga when satipatthana arises. My question is "how many path factors that are arising with vipassana ~na~na?" A Sujin: Is vipassana ~na~na a magga citta, supermundane conciousness? K Busabongrampai: No, it's not a magga citta. A Sujin: So how many magga factors? K Busabongrampai: Is it five? A Sujin: Is there a need to know how many magga factors at the vipassana ~na~na moment? At the moment of vipassana ~na~na or even of satipatthana, it is beyond the theory. What matters is now, but we almost always overlook [the characteristic of dhamma at] this moment. When satisa.mpajjhanna arises, do we need to know how many cetasikas co-arising? K Busabongrampai: No, not at all. A Sujin: So long as it is not magga citta, all three virati cannot arise at the same time. Only pa~n~na can tell. Often when we study dhamma, we are caught in detail of the interesting theory. But we also need to consider if we can understand [realize, know, experience] as described. Those we don't know and have some doubts now will be apparent when we experience the characteristics of sabhava dhamma. Until that happens, we are bound to doubts and to be caught in the detail of the concept [as in theory] of dhamma which is not the direct experience of characteristics of dhamma. K Busabongrampai: So I think the answer to my question should be only five path factors because of the absence of the three virati cetasikas. A Sujin: We can always continue to think, to ponder and discuss about it. The question is for understaning the realities, what must coarise [with citta]? And what level of pa~n~na can tell [what coarising with that particular vipassana ~na~na]? K Busabongrampai: A moment ago K Sunan asked about anatta-ness. For us to whom satipatthana begin to arise, the pa~na~na is too weak to understand the nature of non-self. But the moment after satipatthana, it seems that we can retionalize that it [dhamma] is anatta more easily. K Busabongrampi: A question about anatta, at the very beginning when satipatthana just begins to arise, the anatta-ness perhaps has not arisen. Can the subsequent thoughts contemplate and retional the anatta-ness and the dhamma may appear as anatta more clearly than usual? A Sujin: It is impossible to think and have the same understanding as the arising of vipassana ~na~na that penetrates the characteristics of dhamma. K Ratchada (Q): Regarding the understanding of the distinction (demarkation) of nama and rupa [nama-rupapariccheda~na~na], at the time of sati being aware of, say, nama, is this already considered distinction? Or does pa~n~na have to be able to tell the attributes of nama from that of rupa? A Sujin: It's not the name that can tells. A skillful person is steadfast of being honest to know whether or not at this moment of, say, seeing, he is able to experience realities as they are. At the moment of seeing, there are both seeing and what is being seen, ... and both now quickly have fallen away. Similarly, at the moment of hearing, there is hearing and what is being heard. If we are to experience the realities, we will experience the characteristics of hearing that it is the element that ``knows'' an object and what is heard as the element that is being experienced. All of these happen in daily, ordinary life. However, for beginners the arising of sati may be very far apart. For example, sati may arise at certain moments of hearing but not seeing. Between the moments of satipatthana, there is thinking. Although thinking always arises after seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching, we hardly know the quality of thinking. If vipassana ~na~na is to arise now to penetrate the characteristics of dhamma, it will understand the quality of dhamma as usual only more profoundly with finer detail. Vipassana ~na~na understand the characteristics of thinking that it is different from seeing, hearing etc. What it means by demarkation (distinction) of nama and rupa is that no matter what the dhamma is, it is always an element. Nama element always appear as mentality and never as materiality, penetrates the nama dhamma in the nama-rupa pariccheda ~na~na it cannot (does not) avoid experiencing the object at that moment without discrimination. At that moment, through the mind-door pa~n~na understands clearly the nature of mentality and materiality. Even for thinking (contemplating), vipassana~na~na can arise to be aware of it and panna can study its characteristics. At the moment of thinking, it is a natural phenomenon; thinking is an element, not self, knowing an object. When vipassana~na~na falls away, that person knows that thinking cannot be controlled because the understanding prior to the arising of nama-rupaparicchada~na~na and after it are different. Furthermore, pa~na~na at the level of vipassana nana cannot choose to experience an element, but it arise due to conditions. 19:15min 19753 From: nidive Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:28am Subject: Re: "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Sarah, > I'm enjoying reading all the other discussions on this thread, > how about you? I am enjoying them too. > Is it the chief condition that ties us to samsara? Perhaps I would suggest > the first of the 24 paccaya (root condition) is the chief condition - i.e > lobha and moha in particular being the ties. The six roots of lobha, dosa, > moha and then alobha, adosa and amoha or panna are referred to as the > roots for wholesome and unwholesome consciousness. No kamma can be > instigated without roots.They condition the cittas, other mental factors > and also associated rupas by being roots. Interesting considerations. I am not going to disagree with you if you see it this way. But just a comment here: The Buddha though having eradicated the roots of attachment, aversion and ignorance, yet: Is cetana by way of conascent kamma-condition present in the Buddha? IMHO, I think the answer is yes. Is cetana by way of asynchronous kamma-condition present in the Buddha? IMHO, I think the answer is no. Is vipaka by way of asynchronous kamma-condition present in the Buddha? IMHO, I think the answer is yes. In this way, I see kamma being the chief reality and chief condition that ties us to samsara. For even the Buddha Gotama while alive was still bound to this samsaric existence for the last time. Buddha Gotama was still kamma though the three unwholesome roots were eradicated. But Sarah, I am not sure if the three wholesome roots are eradicated by an arahant. I don't think so, but perhaps you can elaborate/clarify here. By kamma the world moves, By kamma men (& women) live, And by kamma are all beings bound, As by its pin the rolling chariot wheels. http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid3.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19754 From: nidive Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight. Co. Dear Nina, Thank you for posting the references. I am still mulling over this issue. For now my interpretation is: (1) insight preceded by tranquility -develops the jhanas and then contemplates with insight the five aggregates associated with those jhanas; -achieves tranquility through access/jhanic concentration; (2) tranquility preceded by insight -develops insight into the five aggregates in dissociation with the jhanas (since jhanas are not developed); -achieves tranquility through momentary concentration equal to that of access concentration; (3) insight and tranquility in tandem -develops the jhanas but develops insight into the five aggregates in dissociation with the jhanas; -achieves tranquility through access/jhanic concentration; (4) restlessness concerning the Dhamma well under control -develops insight into the mental defilements and restraints them through painful habitual restraint; -develops insight further when mental defilements have been suppressed successfully; -achieves tranquility through constant suppression of the mental defilements, namely the five hindrances. Two/Three days ago, I read in Abhidhamma.ORG: ------------------------------------------------------- If Sariputta was notable for his lasting sense of gratitude, he was no less so for his capacity for friendship. With Maha Moggallana, the friend and companion of his youth, he maintained a close intimacy, and many were the conversations they held on the Dhamma. One of these, which is of special interest as throwing light on the process of Venerable Sariputta's attainment, is recorded in the Anguttara Nikaya, Catukka-nipata, No. 167. It relates that once the Venerable Maha Moggallana went to see the Elder and said to him: "There are four ways of progress, brother Sariputta: difficult progress, with sluggish direct-knowledge; difficult progress, with swift direct-knowledge; easy progress, with sluggish direct-knowledge; easy progress, with direct-knowledge. "By which of these four ways of progress, brother, was your mind freed from the cankers without remnants of clinging?" To which the Venerable Sariputta replied: "By that of those four ways of progress, brother, which is easy and has swift direct-knowledge." The explanation of this passage is that if the suppression of the defilements preparatory to absorption or insight takes place without great difficulty, progress is called "easy" (sukha-patipada); in the reverse case it is "difficult" or "painful" (dukkha-patipada). If, after the suppression of the defilements, the manifestation of the Path, the goal of insight, is quickly effected, the direct-knowledge (connected with the Path) is called "swift" (khippabhiñña); in the reverse case it is "sluggish" (dandabhiñña). In this discourse the Venerable Sariputta's statement refers to his attainment of Arahantship. His attainment of the first three Paths, however, was, according to the commentary to the above text, connected with "easy progress and sluggish direct-knowledge." http://www.abhidhamma.org/life_of_sariputta.htm ------------------------------------------------------- I think the fourth (4) type of practitioner is a practitioner whose progress is "difficult". "Difficult" because the suppression of the mental defilements preparatory to the Magga-Citta is produced through constant, forceful, habitual and painful restraint. In contrast, the (1), (2) and (3) type of practitioners are practitioners whose progress is "easy". "Easy" because the suppression of the mental defilements preparatory to the Magga-Citta is produced through right concentration practice. The purpose of practising jhanas is not to produce the jhanas. But rather, it is to make "easy" the suppression of the mental defilements prior to the Magga-Citta during the Lokuttara Process. Therefore, momentary concentration of strength equal to that of access concentration is still needed for the pure insight practitioner who is without forceful restraint of the mental defilements. It is interesting to note the "similarity" between the jhana and lokuttara process. Jhana Process (First Jhana for the First Time): 1. moment of bhavanga 2. moment of vibration 3. moment of cutting-off 4. moment of mental advertance to counterpart sign through mind-door 5. moment of preliminary work (parikamma) 6. moment of access (upacara) 7. moment of conformity (anuloma) 8. moment of change-of-lineage 9. moment of jhana 10. moment of bhavanga (repeated) Lokuttara Process 1. moment of bhavanga 2. moment of vibration 3. moment of cutting-off 4. moment of mental advertance to formations as impermanent, suffering or selfless through mind-door 5. moment of preliminary work (parikamma) 6. moment of access (upacara) 7. moment of conformity (anuloma) 8. moment of change-of-lineage (gotrabhu) 9. moment of magga 10. moment of phala (repeated 2 or 3 times) 11. moment of bhavanga (repeated) The moment of access (upacara) in the Jhana Process suppresses the five hindrances (mental defilements). Even so, the moment of access (upacara) in the Lokuttara Process must also suppress the five hindrances (mental defilements). And this suppression cannot happen without us practising concentration to the level where these mental defilements can be suppressed easily. Even if panna has reached the level where it can issue in the Lokuttara Process, yet in one who has no concentration that can suppress the mental defilements effectively just for those few moments, Magga can never arise. The arising of Magga depends on the effective suppression of the mental defilements at those critical moments. Panna is not enough. There's no supramundane concentration for one with no mundane insight. And there's no supramundance insight for one with no mundane concentration. But one with both mundane concentration and mundane insight, he/she is on the verge of Unbinding. Just my thoughts. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19755 From: nidive Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:38am Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Howard, > The point is that there must be a causal connection between kamma > and corresponding vipaka. When that is lacking between kamma and a > subsequent event, it is inappropriate to call the event, or > aspects of it, vipaka of that kamma. I hope this clarifies what > I've been writing about. How are you sure that the victims of 911 had not burnt to death another person with flammable materials in one of their past lives? How are you sure that the victims of 911 had not buried to death another person with soil, mud, clay, bricks, etc. in one of their past lives? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19756 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:50am Subject: Re: new member Hi, Theresa ~ Amara is far too modest sometimes. Please take a look at her website: www.dhammastudy.com . welcome, connie 19757 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 0:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight. Co. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " <> (2) tranquility preceded by insight > -develops insight into the five aggregates in dissociation with the > jhanas (since jhanas are not developed); > -achieves tranquility through momentary concentration > equal to that of access concentration; > >> In contrast, the (1), (2) and (3) type of practitioners are > practitioners whose progress is "easy". "Easy" because the > suppression of the mental defilements preparatory to the Magga- Citta > is produced through right concentration practice. > > The purpose of practising jhanas is not to produce the jhanas. But > rather, it is to make "easy" the suppression of the mental > defilements prior to the Magga-Citta during the Lokuttara Process. > > Therefore, momentary concentration of strength equal to that of > access concentration is still needed for the pure insight > practitioner who is without forceful restraint of the mental > defilements. > _____________________________ Dear Swee boon, What do you understand by momentary concentration (khaninka samadhi); in theory , practice and daily life? RobertK 19758 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 0:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 9:38 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment > Hi Howard, > > > The point is that there must be a causal connection between kamma > > and corresponding vipaka. When that is lacking between kamma and a > > subsequent event, it is inappropriate to call the event, or > > aspects of it, vipaka of that kamma. I hope this clarifies what > > I've been writing about. > > How are you sure that the victims of 911 had not burnt to death > another person with flammable materials in one of their past lives? > > How are you sure that the victims of 911 had not buried to death > another person with soil, mud, clay, bricks, etc. in one of their > past lives? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > > > Hi Swee Boon, Howard... Swee Boon, of course who can be sure of anything LOL...but here is what you are suggesting....Somehow in the first tower all those who had put another person to death by fire where in the 20th floor and above. I think almost all of the fire deaths were above where the planes crashed into the buildings. Now in the second building there were more of those who had burned alive others in past lives so the plane had to strike at the 18th floor. Of course this assumes that folks worked on the higher floors, primarily because they had burned to death another person in a past life. Now as I said, it is very difficult maybe even impossible to be sure of anything as complicated as kamma, or as simple as why I like ice cream for that matter LOL, but I think it is fair to say that I am very, very sure that people did not organize themselves within the twin towers based on wither or not they had either burned to death or buried to death someone in a past life....Ray 19759 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --- Dear Ray, Are you suggesting that when people die in floods, or by terrorist acts, plane crashes etc. or that when others become suddenly rich, live long lives etc. that these were fortuitos events and not due to the workings of kamma? Is this moment of seeing now conditioned by past kamma? robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" wrote: > > > Hi Swee Boon, Howard... > > Swee Boon, of course who can be sure of anything LOL...but here is what > you are suggesting....Somehow in the first tower all those who had put > another person to death by fire where in the 20th floor and above. I think > almost all of the fire deaths were above where the planes crashed into the > buildings. Now in the second building there were more of those who had > burned alive others in past lives so the plane had to strike at the 18th > floor. Of course this assumes that folks worked on the higher floors, > primarily because they had burned to death another person in a past life. > Now as I said, it is very difficult maybe even impossible to be sure of > anything as complicated as kamma, or as simple as why I like ice cream for > that matter LOL, but I think it is fair to say that I am very, very sure > that people did not organize themselves within the twin towers based on > wither or not they had either burned to death or buried to death someone in > a past life....Ray 19760 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 1:11 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment > --- > Dear Ray, > Are you suggesting that when people die in floods, or by terrorist > acts, plane crashes etc. or that when others become suddenly rich, > live long lives etc. that these were fortuitos events and not due to > the workings of kamma? > Is this moment of seeing now conditioned by past kamma? > robertk Hi Robertk, what I am suggesting is that sometimes accidents are just that accidents. Clearly the canon states that many circumstances we find ourselves in are in fact due to the workings of kamma, but I think it also states that the arising of such circumstances are not only due to kamma. The location specific method of death within the twin towers seems to bear this our IMO. Yes I agree that this moment of seeing now is conditioned by past kamma...Ray 19761 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:45pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Thank you for the sutta reference and Pali, Larry. Much appreciated. Rob M and Howard, Thank you both for letting me swim around with my foot in mouth and being gracious about it. Didn't mean to drag you off in another direction... just happened to be reading the 9-11 posts in the archives when these other 2 threads came up. Kalupahana on: "The Buddhist conception of time and temporality" http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/kalupa.htm "The Buddhist conceptions of subject and object and their moral implications" http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/kalupa1.htm "Causality: The Central Philosophy of Buddhism" http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/david6.htm These are all found on the http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/cf_eng.htm page. peace, connie 19762 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:37pm Subject: Cognitive Neuroscience and Abhidhamma Hi All, I was preparing for my weekly Abhidhamma class and once of my web searches led me to a synopsis of an article, "On the stages of perception: towards a synthesis of cognitive neuroscience and the Buddhist Abhidhamma tradition" that was published in "Journal of Consciousness Studies" Vol 4, No 2 in 1997. I sent an email to the author, Brian L. Lancaster at Liverpool John Moores University, asking his for the full paper and he responded immediately with a copy (1.3Meg). The reply also said: "We're just launching an online version of our MSc in Consciousness & transpersonal Psychology. You, or others you have contact with, may be interested. So please spread the word. Check it out at http://cwis.livjm.ac.uk/ctp/ctpdistance/welcome.html (NB the link to the application form is not yet set up)." Some of you might be interested in this. If you would like a copy of the paper emailed to you, please send me an email at rob.moult@j... and I will forward it. Metta, Rob M :-) 19763 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:54pm Subject: Re: new member Sorry, posted to wrong group. peace, connie 19764 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:10pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --- Dear Connie, Could you say what you like about these articles. Maybe quote some passages. thanks robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Thank you for the sutta reference and Pali, Larry. Much appreciated. > > Rob M and Howard, > Thank you both for letting me swim around with my foot in mouth and > being gracious about it. Didn't mean to drag you off in another > direction... just happened to be reading the 9-11 posts in the archives > when these other 2 threads came up. > > Kalupahana on: > "The Buddhist conception of time and temporality" > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/kalupa.htm > > "The Buddhist conceptions of subject and object and their moral > implications" > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/kalupa1.htm > > "Causality: The Central Philosophy of Buddhism" > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/david6.htm > > These are all found on the http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/cf_eng.htm > page. > > peace, > connie 19765 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/19/2003 12:38:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > > The point is that there must be a causal connection between kamma > > and corresponding vipaka. When that is lacking between kamma and a > > subsequent event, it is inappropriate to call the event, or > > aspects of it, vipaka of that kamma. I hope this clarifies what > > I've been writing about. > > How are you sure that the victims of 911 had not burnt to death > another person with flammable materials in one of their past lives? > > How are you sure that the victims of 911 had not buried to death > another person with soil, mud, clay, bricks, etc. in one of > their > past lives? -------------------------------- Howard: I'm not at all sure that they had not. My point is: By what means, did such a prior deed result in the 9-11 event? Or, to look at it another way: How did the prior bad deeds put them where they were on 9-11 so that they would fall victim to the attack? Did the kamma seeds know about the upcoming attack!? ;-) -------------------------------- > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon =============================== With metta, Howard 19766 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Ray (and Robert) - In a message dated 2/19/2003 4:23:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, rhendrickson1@e... writes: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 1:11 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment > > > > --- > > Dear Ray, > > Are you suggesting that when people die in floods, or by terrorist > > acts, plane crashes etc. or that when others become suddenly rich, > > live long lives etc. that these were fortuitos events and not due to > > the workings of kamma? > > Is this moment of seeing now conditioned by past kamma? > > robertk > > Hi Robertk, what I am suggesting is that sometimes accidents are just that > accidents. Clearly the canon states that many circumstances we find > ourselves in are in fact due to the workings of kamma, but I think it also > states that the arising of such circumstances are not only due to kamma. > The location specific method of death within the twin towers seems to bear > this our IMO. Yes I agree that this moment of seeing now > is conditioned by > past kamma...Ray ============================== Yes, I would agree with that as well - I would not be seeing what I am curently seeing had I not, for example, been born into this realm (due to prior kusala kamma). I would not be seeing the monitor screen had I not sat down in front of it, and the people who died in the towers on 9-11 wouldn't have had they not gone there that day. The kamma leading to being born here, the sitting down, and the going to work were all volitional actions, and they were conditions for subsequent experiences. That's all. Nothing mysterious. With metta, Howard 19767 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Connie - In a message dated 2/19/2003 4:45:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@h... writes: > > Thank you for the sutta reference and Pali, Larry. Much appreciated. > > Rob M and Howard, > Thank you both for letting me swim around with my foot in mouth and > being gracious about it. Didn't mean to drag you off in another > direction... just happened to be reading the 9-11 posts in the archives > when these other 2 threads came up. > > Kalupahana on: > "The Buddhist conception of time and temporality" > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/kalupa.htm > > "The Buddhist conceptions of subject and object and their moral > implications" > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/kalupa1.htm > > "Causality: The Central Philosophy of Buddhism" > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/david6.htm > > These are all found on the > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/cf_eng.htm > page. > > peace, > connie ======================== Thanks very much for the links! With metta, Howard 19768 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ray (and Robert) - > > > > > Hi Robertk, what I am suggesting is that sometimes accidents are just that > > accidents. Clearly the canon states that many circumstances we find > > ourselves in are in fact due to the workings of kamma, but I think it also > > states that the arising of such circumstances are not only due to kamma. > > The location specific method of death within the twin towers seems to bear > > this our IMO. Yes I agree that this moment of seeing now > > is conditioned by > > past kamma...Ray > ============================== > Yes, I would agree with that as well - I would not be seeing what I am curently seeing had I not, for example, been born into this realm (due to prior kusala kamma). I would not be seeing the monitor screen had I not sat down in front of it, and the people who died in the towers on 9-11 wouldn't have had they not gone there that day. The kamma leading to being born here, the sitting down, and the going to work were all volitional actions, and they were conditions for subsequent experiences. That's all. Nothing mysterious. > _________ Dear Ray Before I reply to this could you confirm that you have the same understanding as Howard writes above? Robertk 19769 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment > > ============================== > > Yes, I would agree with that as well - I would not be seeing > what I am curently seeing had I not, for example, been born into this > realm (due to prior kusala kamma). I would not be seeing the monitor > screen had I not sat down in front of it, and the people who died in > the towers on 9-11 wouldn't have had they not gone there that day. > The kamma leading to being born here, the sitting down, and the going > to work were all volitional actions, and they were conditions for > subsequent experiences. That's all. Nothing mysterious. > > _________ > Dear Ray > Before I reply to this could you confirm that you have the same > understanding as Howard writes above? > Robertk > Hi Howard and Robert, Yes Robert, my understanding is the same as Howard expresses above. Looking forward to reading your response...Ray 19770 From: smallchap Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: awareness and concepts Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > S: In this case, is it correct to say that one cannot attain > udayabbayaanupassanaa-~naa.na (arising and falling away of dhammas) before > one attains Nama-rupa-pariccheda-~naa.na, Paccaya-pariggaha- ~naa.na, and > sammassana~naa.na? > N: That is correct. S: Thnak you for the clarification. I appreciate it very much. >N: What falls away? One nama or one rupa at a time can be > realized as impermament. Citta with panna can know only one object at a > time, either a nama or a rupa. We see in all the suttas: six doorways are > explained all the time, as being separate. > At each following stage of insight there is a little more detachment from > the idea of person. Detachment is needed to be aware of what naturally > arises. I was reminded in Bgk: if we think, O no, not this object, there can > already be wrong practice, silabbata paramasa. > May we all help each other to walk the right Path, S: Thank you for the reminder once more. With sammadhi as the supporting factor to cause the mind to be aleart yet passive, and with an equanimous attitude, one should be able to walk away from the pitfalls. One question here. What do you mean by silabbata paramasa? I am sure here it does not mean attachment to rules and rituals. One more question. It is said that at the stage of sankhaarupekkhaa- ~naa.na, one is able to 'see' nama and rupa as two separate entiies. How does one 'see' these two as separate entities? I mean, is nama clearly 'see' itself separated from rupa? smallchap 19771 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --- Dear Ray and Howard, Thanks for explaining your views on kamma. Just to make sure I understand you I quote a little from the Dhammapada atthakattha below. I think you agree that it is standard Theravada teaching, and then does it fit with your comments? http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm#threegroupsof A group of bhikkhus were on their way to pay homage to the Buddha and they stopped at a village on the way. Some people were cooking alms- food for those bhikkhus when one of the houses caught fire and a ring of fire flew up into the air. At that moment, a crow came flying, got caught in the ring of fire and dropped dead in the central part of the village. The bhikkhus seeing the dead crow observed that only the Buddha would be able to explain for what evil deed this crow had to die in this manner. After taking alms-food they continued on their journey to pay homage to the Buddha, and also to ask about the unfortunate crow. The Buddha answer to the first group: "Bhikkhus, once there was a farmer who had an ox. The ox was very lazy and also very stubborn. It could not be coaxed to do any work; it would lie down chewing the cud or else go to sleep. The farmer lost his temper many times on account of this lazy, stubborn animal; so in anger he tied a straw rope round the neck of the ox and set fire to it, and the ox died. On account of this evil deed the, farmer had suffered for a long time in niraya. and in serving out the remaining part of his punishment, he had been burnt to death in the last seven existences." Then, a bhikkhu remarked, "O indeed! There is no escape from evil consequences for one who has done evil, even if he were in the sky, or in the ocean, or in a cave." To him, the Buddha said, "Yes, Bhikkhu! You are right; even in the sky or anywhere else, there is no place which is beyond the reach of evil consequences." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 127. Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in the cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where one may escape from the consequences of an evil deed. At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti Fruition. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" wrote: > > > ============================== > > > Yes, I would agree with that as well - I would not be seeing > > what I am curently seeing had I not, for example, been born into this > > realm (due to prior kusala kamma). I would not be seeing the monitor > > screen had I not sat down in front of it, and the people who died in > > the towers on 9-11 wouldn't have had they not gone there that day. > > The kamma leading to being born here, the sitting down, and the going > > to work were all volitional actions, and they were conditions for > > subsequent experiences. That's all. Nothing mysterious. > > > _________ > > Dear Ray > > Before I reply to this could you confirm that you have the same > > understanding as Howard writes above? > > Robertk > > > Hi Howard and Robert, > > Yes Robert, my understanding is the same as Howard expresses above. > Looking forward to reading your response...Ray 19772 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) In a message dated 2/19/2003 6:32:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 2/18/03 10:59:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > I would like to study this further. Do you have any sutta references > > (or references in other texts) which talk about "not everything is > > due to one's own kamma", especially referencing "assault by others". > > > > > ============================ > My mind is like a sieve when it comes to remembering sutta > references > - I'm sorry. But I do recall that at least one such sutta was quoted on > DSG. > Perhaps someone else will come up with a reference. > > With metta, > Howard > The Sutta is in Book 4 of Samyutta Nikaya. Vedanasamyutta # 21. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, The Connected Discourse of the Buddha, it is on pages 1278 -- 1279. TG 19773 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > The Sutta is in Book 4 of Samyutta Nikaya. Vedanasamyutta # 21. In Bhikkhu > Bodhi's translation, The Connected Discourse of the Buddha, it is on pages > 1278 -- 1279. I am on the road. Is there an on-line version? Metta, Rob M :-) 19774 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:27pm Subject: Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one) Hi All, From the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18): "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye." This a macro, soteriological perspective highlighting (note the changes in sentence tense): - the "paticcasamuppada present effect" (naturally arising phenomena) of "Dependent on ... there is feeling." - the "paticcasamuppada present cause" (our reaction) of "What one feels ... that one mentally proliferates." - how the present cause binds us to samsara; "With what one has ... cognizable through the eye." The commentary identifies "perceives" with labeling (naming). "Thinks about" is identified as vitakka (I assume a different usage than the cetasika vitakka). "Mentally proliferates" is papanca. I am contemplating how this works from a micro, citta-process perspective. Here is a quote from "Reality and Concepts" by Khun Sujin: When the vithi-cittas of a sense-door process have fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are cittas of the mind-door process. The first series of cittas of the mind- door process which arise after a sense-door process experience a sense object which has only just fallen away, they do not have a concept as object. In each series of mind-door process cittas there are two or three kinds of vithi-cittas, namely: one moment of mind- door adverting-consciousness, seven moments of javana-cittas and two moments of tadalambana-cittas. When the first series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there is a another series of mind-door process cittas, which can have as object a concept (such as shape and form, or the image of something as a "whole") on account of a sense object. When this series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away there are bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are more rounds of minddoor process cittas which follow. They know the meaning of something, they know words and names. In between the different series there are bhavanga-cittas. When we know that we see people or different things, the citta experiences a concept, not a paramattha dhamma which is rupa. The object which is a paramattha dhamma appearing through the eyes are only different colours. When the vithi-cittas of the mind-door process know that there are beings, people and different things, then the cittas have pannattis, concepts, as object. They know what a particular thing is. Let's start with a sense-door citta-process though the eye door. What is the object of this process? It is a visible object; a small dot (think of the dots of a TV screen). From a scientific perspective, I think of the input from a single optical sensor on the back of the retina. Though the eye-door citta process has javana cittas, there is not much kamma created at this stage. There could be clinging to sense objects (i.e. the desire to have visual sensations), but nothing "higher level" (i.e. I like roses) going on. Let's add in a few dots from more sense-door citta-processes. More weak kamma. With a collection of dots, we are now starting to "construct" a whole picture. Constructing a whole picture is done by a series of mind-door processes. These mind-door processes also create weak kamma as the volition (cetana) involved is very weak. Once the whole picture is complete, there are a series of mind-door citta-processes which perceive colour and shading (still very weak volition). With a whole picture, complete with colour and shading in place, the next set of thought processes conceive a shape. Another set of mind-door thought processes are involved as we name the object (it is a "flower"). The naming or "designation" process is still "weak". I suspect that this is the "perceiving" stage from the Honeyball Sutta. The next set of mind-door citta-processes are involved with "judgement"; (it is a "rose"), a refining of the naming process. The naming is further refined in the next step of mind-door citta-processes called the "classification" stage; (it is a "red rose"). The "judgement" and "classification" stages are probably the "thinking about" stage from the Honeyball Sutta. We have had one set of sense-door citta-processes (collecting the dots) and six sets of mind-door citta-processes (construction, perception, conception, designation, classification, judgement). All of these citta-processes have created weak kamma because of the limited strength of the volition involved. The next stage is the point at which kamma (volition) becomes strong. So far, the mind has been "expanding outward"; the next stage is when the mind starts "expanding upwards on the base it has created". As the mind "expands upwards", "volition gets stacked on top of volition" and the cumulative effect becomes very powerful; it creates strong kamma. The next stage is "mental proliferation" (papanca). In the example above, the mind jumps from "red rose" to "red roses are associated with romances", "I like red roses" and so on. Sense-door citta-processes make up a very small percentage of our citta-processes and contribute an even smaller percentage to our accumulations and kammic seeds. Mind-door citta-processes are far more important, both in terms of quantity and kammic impact. Here is what I am confused about: After the eye-door citta processes have "collected all the dots", we have mind-door citta process which "connects the dots" and constructs an image. What is the object of these mind-door citta processes? It is a concept, but what concept is it? We have a number of mental impressions left over by the eye-door citta processes, we have the concepts of relationships between dots (together / separate / etc.) and we have a constructed image being created. A little later in the process we will have a similar problem when we have the mind-door citta process which labels or names the constructed image. What is the object for these mind-door citta processes? It is a concept, but what concept is it? Is it the constructed image? Is the "past mental impression used for comparison"? Is it the closeness of the match? What I am thinking is that the concept of these mind-door processes must be the "relationship"; unfortunately, a "relationship" has to "point to" at least two different things such as: - Two dots - existing constructed image and element from database of names Unlike paramatthas which seem to be quite "simple" and "limited" in scope, a concept as an object of a mind door citta process can probably be quite complex. Perhaps the object of the mind door citta process is the relationship PLUS the two different things pointed to. Does anybody have any ideas or comments on this, or am I so confused that I can't even express myself clearly enough to formulate an intelligible question? Metta, Rob M :-) 19775 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:29pm Subject: Re: Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one) Dear RobM Kom wrote about this awhile back: | "As taught by Tan A. Sujin the namas (mentality)can experience objects through the six | dvaras, via the process of panja-dvara-javana-vithi (1), and mano- | dvara-javana-vithi (2). When an object is experienced as paramatha | aramana by the cittas in the panja-dvara-javana-vithi process, it is also | experienced, also as poramatha aramana, in the mano-dvara-javana- | vithi process. |It is only some vithis later that the mano-dvara-javana-vithi (3) cittas start experiencing pannati (concepts) as conditioned by the earlier cittas | experiencing the poratha aramana. The aramana for the cittas at this point is no longer paramatha: it is not real----it does not rise, it does not fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will never exist. | | | Before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), and (2) | processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we can deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of cittas) to condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It must take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara- javana | vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the citta to | start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. | | The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), experiencing | the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see an unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then we may attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of taking paramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, namable concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on to. | | Hence, to add to my original comments, the paramatha aramana doesn't | become sharper. How can it becomes sharper when it rises and falls away | virtually immediately? Only pannati(concept) becomes "sharper": the cittas | process the aramana object so it become identifiable and namable, and | hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively "clearer" in "our" | mind. | | The other points that I was attempting to add before is that, seeing | without satipathana glues us very steadfastly to the concepts of people, | animal, and self. If our eyes are open, it appears that an object that we see doesn't rise or fall away. It is there: constant and unchanging. It is so hard to understand that what we are seeing is no longer there. By | the time we see a shape, the object that we actually saw is no longer | there. By the time we remember the name, the object is no longer there." endquote by Kom I want to add that all of this is theory but it can be absolutely known as the way things really are. Thinking about it won't convince us but when there is thinking these processes are happening and can be insighted directly to the degree that is appropriate to whatever level of understanding one has. I believe it is all so true. RobertK |________ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: > Hi All, > > From the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18): > "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, > that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally > proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, > perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man > with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the > eye." > > This a macro, soteriological perspective highlighting (note the > changes in sentence tense): > - the "paticcasamuppada present effect" (naturally arising > phenomena) of "Dependent on ... there is feeling." > - the "paticcasamuppada present cause" (our reaction) of "What one > feels ... that one mentally proliferates." > - how the present cause binds us to samsara; "With what one has ... > cognizable through the eye." > > The commentary identifies "perceives" with labeling (naming). > > "Thinks about" is identified as vitakka (I assume a different usage > than the cetasika vitakka). > > "Mentally proliferates" is papanca. > > I am contemplating how this works from a micro, citta-process > perspective. > > Here is a quote from "Reality and Concepts" by Khun Sujin: > When the vithi-cittas of a sense-door process have fallen away, > there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are cittas > of the mind-door process. The first series of cittas of the mind- > door process which arise after a sense-door process experience a > sense object which has only just fallen away, they do not have a > concept as object. In each series of mind-door process cittas there > are two or three kinds of vithi-cittas, namely: one moment of mind- > door adverting-consciousness, seven moments of javana-cittas and two > moments of tadalambana-cittas. When the first series of mind-door > process cittas has fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in > between, and then there is a another series of mind-door process > cittas, which can have as object a concept (such as shape and form, > or the image of something as a "whole") on account of a sense > object. When this series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away > there are bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are more rounds > of minddoor process cittas which follow. They know the meaning of > something, they know words and names. In between the different > series there are bhavanga-cittas. When we know that we see people or > different things, the citta experiences a concept, not a paramattha > dhamma which is rupa. The object which is a paramattha dhamma > appearing through the eyes are only different colours. When the > vithi-cittas of the mind-door process know that there are beings, > people and different things, then the cittas have pannattis, > concepts, as object. They know what a particular thing is. > > > Let's start with a sense-door citta-process though the eye door. > What is the object of this process? It is a visible object; a small > dot (think of the dots of a TV screen). From a scientific > perspective, I think of the input from a single optical sensor on > the back of the retina. Though the eye-door citta process has javana > cittas, there is not much kamma created at this stage. There could > be clinging to sense objects (i.e. the desire to have visual > sensations), but nothing "higher level" (i.e. I like roses) going on. > > Let's add in a few dots from more sense-door citta-processes. More > weak kamma. With a collection of dots, we are now starting > to "construct" a whole picture. Constructing a whole picture is done > by a series of mind-door processes. These mind-door processes also > create weak kamma as the volition (cetana) involved is very weak. > > Once the whole picture is complete, there are a series of mind-door > citta-processes which perceive colour and shading (still very weak > volition). > > With a whole picture, complete with colour and shading in place, the > next set of thought processes conceive a shape. > > Another set of mind-door thought processes are involved as we name > the object (it is a "flower"). The naming or "designation" process > is still "weak". I suspect that this is the "perceiving" stage from > the Honeyball Sutta. > > The next set of mind-door citta-processes are involved > with "judgement"; (it is a "rose"), a refining of the naming > process. The naming is further refined in the next step of mind- door > citta-processes called the "classification" stage; (it is a "red > rose"). The "judgement" and "classification" stages are probably > the "thinking about" stage from the Honeyball Sutta. > > We have had one set of sense-door citta-processes (collecting the > dots) and six sets of mind-door citta-processes (construction, > perception, conception, designation, classification, judgement). All > of these citta-processes have created weak kamma because of the > limited strength of the volition involved. > > The next stage is the point at which kamma (volition) becomes > strong. So far, the mind has been "expanding outward"; the next > stage is when the mind starts "expanding upwards on the base it has > created". As the mind "expands upwards", "volition gets stacked on > top of volition" and the cumulative effect becomes very powerful; it > creates strong kamma. The next stage is "mental proliferation" > (papanca). In the example above, the mind jumps from "red rose" > to "red roses are associated with romances", "I like red roses" and > so on. > > Sense-door citta-processes make up a very small percentage of our > citta-processes and contribute an even smaller percentage to our > accumulations and kammic seeds. Mind-door citta-processes are far > more important, both in terms of quantity and kammic impact. > > Here is what I am confused about: > After the eye-door citta processes have "collected all the dots", we > have mind-door citta process which "connects the dots" and > constructs an image. What is the object of these mind-door citta > processes? It is a concept, but what concept is it? We have a number > of mental impressions left over by the eye-door citta processes, we > have the concepts of relationships between dots (together / > separate / etc.) and we have a constructed image being created. > > A little later in the process we will have a similar problem when we > have the mind-door citta process which labels or names the > constructed image. What is the object for these mind-door citta > processes? It is a concept, but what concept is it? Is it the > constructed image? Is the "past mental impression used for > comparison"? Is it the closeness of the match? > > What I am thinking is that the concept of these mind-door processes > must be the "relationship"; unfortunately, a "relationship" has > to "point to" at least two different things such as: > - Two dots > - existing constructed image and element from database of names > > Unlike paramatthas which seem to be quite "simple" and "limited" in > scope, a concept as an object of a mind door citta process can > probably be quite complex. Perhaps the object of the mind door citta > process is the relationship PLUS the two different things pointed to. > > Does anybody have any ideas or comments on this, or am I so confused > that I can't even express myself clearly enough to formulate an > intelligible question? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 19776 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:49pm Subject: Re: Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one) Hi Rob K, This is good stuff. In the section below, Kom describes the "concept" as "evolving" and "getting sharper". How does this happen at a mind-door citta-process level? I guess that this is my question. A mind-door citta-process starts with a single object (a concept) and it maintains the same object (same concept) throughout the citta- process. How does a mind-door citta-process allow a concept to evolve, change, get sharper? In order for a concept to evolve (or a concept to be formed from a paramattha), there must be an opportunity for something to be added (a layer of conceptual proliferation?). How does a mind-door citta-process allow something to be added to its object? Rob K, thanks for the opportunity to re-ask my question in a (hopefully) simpler way. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > | Before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), > and (2) > | processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we > can deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of > cittas) to condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It > must take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara- > javana > | vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the citta to > | start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. > | > | The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), > experiencing > | the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see > an unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then > we may attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of > taking paramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, > namable concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on > to. > Only pannati(concept) becomes "sharper": > the cittas > | process the aramana object so it become identifiable and namable, > and > | hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively "clearer" in "our" > | mind. 19777 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one) In a message dated 2/19/2003 8:33:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi All, > > From the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18): > "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, > that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally > proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, > perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man > with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the > eye." > > This a macro, soteriological perspective highlighting (note the > changes in sentence tense): > - the "paticcasamuppada present effect" (naturally arising > phenomena) of "Dependent on ... there is feeling." > - the "paticcasamuppada present cause" (our reaction) of "What one > feels ... that one mentally proliferates." > - how the present cause binds us to samsara; "With what one has ... > cognizable through the eye." > > The commentary identifies "perceives" with labeling (naming). > > "Thinks about" is identified as vitakka (I assume a different usage > than the cetasika vitakka). > > "Mentally proliferates" is papanca. > > I am contemplating how this works from a micro, citta-process > perspective. > > Here is a quote from "Reality and Concepts" by Khun Sujin: > When the vithi-cittas of a sense-door process have fallen away, > there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are cittas > of the mind-door process. The first series of cittas of the mind- > door process which arise after a sense-door process experience a > sense object which has only just fallen away, they do not have a > concept as object. In each series of mind-door process cittas there > are two or three kinds of vithi-cittas, namely: one moment of mind- > door adverting-consciousness, seven moments of javana-cittas and two > moments of tadalambana-cittas. When the first series of mind-door > process cittas has fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in > between, and then there is a another series of mind-door process > cittas, which can have as object a concept (such as shape and form, > or the image of something as a "whole") on account of a sense > object. When this series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away > there are bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are more rounds > of minddoor process cittas which follow. They know the meaning of > something, they know words and names. In between the different > series there are bhavanga-cittas. When we know that we see people or > different things, the citta experiences a concept, not a paramattha > dhamma which is rupa. The object which is a paramattha dhamma > appearing through the eyes are only different colours. When the > vithi-cittas of the mind-door process know that there are beings, > people and different things, then the cittas have pannattis, > concepts, as object. They know what a particular thing is. > > > Let's start with a sense-door citta-process though the eye door. > What is the object of this process? It is a visible object; a small > dot (think of the dots of a TV screen). From a scientific > perspective, I think of the input from a single optical sensor on > the back of the retina. Though the eye-door citta process has javana > cittas, there is not much kamma created at this stage. There could > be clinging to sense objects (i.e. the desire to have visual > sensations), but nothing "higher level" (i.e. I like roses) going on. > > Let's add in a few dots from more sense-door citta-processes. More > weak kamma. With a collection of dots, we are now starting > to "construct" a whole picture. Constructing a whole picture is done > by a series of mind-door processes. These mind-door processes also > create weak kamma as the volition (cetana) involved is very weak. > > Once the whole picture is complete, there are a series of mind-door > citta-processes which perceive colour and shading (still very weak > volition). > > With a whole picture, complete with colour and shading in place, the > next set of thought processes conceive a shape. > > Another set of mind-door thought processes are involved as we name > the object (it is a "flower"). The naming or "designation" process > is still "weak". I suspect that this is the "perceiving" stage from > the Honeyball Sutta. > > The next set of mind-door citta-processes are involved > with "judgement"; (it is a "rose"), a refining of the naming > process. The naming is further refined in the next step of mind-door > citta-processes called the "classification" stage; (it is a "red > rose"). The "judgement" and "classification" stages are probably > the "thinking about" stage from the Honeyball Sutta. > > We have had one set of sense-door citta-processes (collecting the > dots) and six sets of mind-door citta-processes (construction, > perception, conception, designation, classification, judgement). All > of these citta-processes have created weak kamma because of the > limited strength of the volition involved. > > The next stage is the point at which kamma (volition) becomes > strong. So far, the mind has been "expanding outward"; the next > stage is when the mind starts "expanding upwards on the base it has > created". As the mind "expands upwards", "volition gets stacked on > top of volition" and the cumulative effect becomes very powerful; it > creates strong kamma. The next stage is "mental proliferation" > (papanca). In the example above, the mind jumps from "red rose" > to "red roses are associated with romances", "I like red roses" and > so on. > > Sense-door citta-processes make up a very small percentage of our > citta-processes and contribute an even smaller percentage to our > accumulations and kammic seeds. Mind-door citta-processes are far > more important, both in terms of quantity and kammic impact. > > Here is what I am confused about: > After the eye-door citta processes have "collected all the dots", we > have mind-door citta process which "connects the dots" and > constructs an image. What is the object of these mind-door citta > processes? It is a concept, but what concept is it? We have a number > of mental impressions left over by the eye-door citta processes, we > have the concepts of relationships between dots (together / > separate / etc.) and we have a constructed image being created. > > A little later in the process we will have a similar problem when we > have the mind-door citta process which labels or names the > constructed image. What is the object for these mind-door citta > processes? It is a concept, but what concept is it? Is it the > constructed image? Is the "past mental impression used for > comparison"? Is it the closeness of the match? > > What I am thinking is that the concept of these mind-door processes > must be the "relationship"; unfortunately, a "relationship" has > to "point to" at least two different things such as: > - Two dots > - existing constructed image and element from database of names > > Unlike paramatthas which seem to be quite "simple" and "limited" in > scope, a concept as an object of a mind door citta process can > probably be quite complex. Perhaps the object of the mind door citta > process is the relationship PLUS the two different things pointed to. > > Does anybody have any ideas or comments on this, or am I so confused > that I can't even express myself clearly enough to formulate an > intelligible question? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > Hi Rob Is it possible to over-analyse a sutta with too much detail? I think the Buddha taught so that we could understand the "priciples" of nature and psychology in sufficient detail to achieve the purpose of that teaching. If the principles of dependent origination and causality (in general) are understood so that insight into impermanence, affliction, and no-self can uproot delusion/craving states, than that's all that's needed...and that's what needs to be focussed on. IMO The extract from the Honeyball sutta you quoted seems like a straightforward presentation of causality, focusing on mental activities, and directed toward the subject: "perceptions and notions that beset a person." (These perceptions and notions are those dealing with self-view/delusion and the suffering that results therefrom.) This Sutta (The Honeyball) goes straight to the heart of the matter by indicating that no sorrow/suffering can arise when there is no foundation for experience. One might also surmise from this sutta that Nibbana is not some "existent lofty un-state state," but rather -- the end of experience. I figure you were looking for an explanation from an Abhidhamma point of view. I just proferred this style of explanation as a counterpart for consideration. Not so much to consider the Sutta, although that would be nice, but to consider methods of analysis. TG PS... I'd talk longer, but I have to go now and take an asprin after reading your post. ;-) 19778 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one) Hi TG, Sorry about the headache; I put the "(a long one)" in the header to warn people. Let me try to re-ask the question in a short way: This Sutta explains that the mind "builds" upon what is perceived (conceptual proliferation). From an Abhidhamma analysis perspective, how does a mind conceptually profiferate? I am not asking about stages of mind-door citta-processes here (construction, perception, conception, designation, classification, judgement), I am asking about taking a concept as an input to a single mind-door citta- process and getting a bigger, clearer, more-complete, more-deluded concept as an output (which of course acts as an input to another mind-door citta process). I apologize for the awkward and long-winded way in which I asked the question. I wanted to establish some background informaiton (which I was pleased to see was largely verified by Kom's post forwarded by Rob K). Any ideas? Metta, Rob M :-) 19779 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:28pm Subject: Re: Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one) --- Dear RobM, If I can just repeat a piece from your original post:"Sense-door citta-processes make up a very small percentage of our citta-processes and contribute an even smaller percentage to our accumulations and kammic seeds. Mind-door citta-processes are far more important, both in terms of quantity and kammic impact." And even in a sense door process - such as seeing - the actual moments of seeing consciousness are just a flash. Nina mentioned this recently. Through ignorance it seems that seeing lasts for a long time but really the whole world is completely dark except for brief flashes of colours appearing through the eyedoor intermittantly. Even the moments of insight that understand seeing are themselves dark (they are not cakkhu-vinnana). But now the mind-door processes are hidden by ignorance. Acharn Sujin explains that during true vipassana nana it is like it is reversed. The mind-door becomes apparent and so the actual aloneness and uncontrollability is known. Not something to hurry. On your questions remember that all the arahants still know concepts, they know what a rose is, what its name is. But there is no papanca - there is no mana, ditthi and craving (the three papanca). They may still use complex thinking when they explain the Abhidhamma, but void of papanca. However, the wordling uninstructed or deluded about the Buddha's teaching will surely imagine those concepts to be real. So many billions of moments of cittas that occur just to realise- this is a rose. Who could make it happen; who could stop it happening? And who could ever begin to understand it without the arising of a Sammasambuddha to point the way. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: Hi Rob K, This is good stuff. In the section below, Kom describes the "concept" as "evolving" and "getting sharper". How does this happen at a mind-door citta-process level? I guess that this is my question. A mind-door citta-process starts with a single object (a concept) and it maintains the same object (same concept) throughout the citta- process. How does a mind-door citta-process allow a concept to evolve, change, get sharper? In order for a concept to evolve (or a concept to be formed from a paramattha), there must be an opportunity for something to be added (a layer of conceptual proliferation?). How does a mind-door citta-process allow something to be added to its object? Rob K, thanks for the opportunity to re-ask my question in a (hopefully) simpler way. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > | Before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), > and (2) > | processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we > can deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of > cittas) to condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It > must take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara- > javana > | vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the citta to > | start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. > | > | The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), > experiencing > | the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see > an unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then > we may attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of > taking paramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, > namable concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on > to. > Only pannati(concept) becomes "sharper": > the cittas > | process the aramana object so it become identifiable and namable, > and > | hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively "clearer" in "our" > | mind. --- End forwarded message --- 19780 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Rob M, Great to have you back and to read your interesting and imaginative comments on difficult subjects like kamma and Abhidhamma here: wrote: > I was very surprised to read in a recent post by Sarah that in > his "Introduction to Conditional Relations", U Narada called the > Abhidhamma "the word of the Buddha". I think that U Narada was > taking some "artistic license". ..... I’d like to know what you make of these extracts then in this regard: 1)recently quoted by Nina in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15484.html "We read about Sariputta in Wheel 90-92: ***** 3)From Atthasalini transl (‘Expositor’, PTS p.6) “Now when he laid down the table of contents he foresaw that, two hudnred and eighteen years after his death, Tissa, Moggali’s son, seated in the midst of one thousand bhikkhus, would elaborate the Kathavatthu....So Tissa, Moggali’s son, expounded the book not by his own knowledge but according to the table of contents laid down, as well as by the method given, by the Teacher. Hence the entire book became the WORD OF THE BUDDHA.” ***** 4)From Atth transl p.11 “The following points in the Patthana should be considered:....Of these the twenty-two triplets and the hundred couplets taught by the omniscient Buddha are the directly spoken words of the conqueror and form the table of contents for the seven books. Then whence arose the other forty-two couplets? By whom were they laid down and taught? They originated with Sariputta, Generalissimo of the Law, having been laid down and taught by him. But he did not lay them down through his own self-evolved knowledge. They have been gathered from the Eka-Nipata and duka-Nipata of the Anguttara-Nikaya, the Sangiti and Dasuttarasuttantas of the Digha-Nikaya, in order to help students of the Abhidhamma in their references to the Suttantas.” ***** Rob:> My understanding, from reading the Atthasalini, is that the Buddha > taught Abhidhamma to the Gods in Tavatimsa Heaven for three months, > in gratitude to his former mother. Each day, when it was time for > His alms-round, He created a Buddha after His own image and willed > that the created Buddha teach the Dhamma so much while the Buddha > came to earth. After alms-round, the Buddha met Sariputta and told > Sariputta that so much of the Dhamma had been taught during the > interval. Effectively, the Buddha passed along a "Table of Contents" > (The Matika?)and Sariputta (being so endowed with knowledge) filled > in the rest for his 500 followers (who of course gained > enlightenment). > > In summary, there are three versions of Abhidhamma: > - Taught by the Buddha in Tavatimsa Heaven (long) > - Taught by the Buddha to Sariputta (short) > - Taught by Sariputta to 500 monks (medium, passed to us) > > If we take this account as fact, then the "Abhidhamma" (as we know > it) was not the "word of the Buddha", but came from Sariputta. ..... S:I agree with the facts and understand that literally speaking, the Abhidhamma was taught by Sariputta. The same could also be said about those parts of the Suttanta expunded by Sariputta in detail, such as the entire Patisambhidamagga. In an earlier post I wrote (and welcome any of your comments): “Often in the suttas too, we read many references to the Buddha’s Teachings as explained by his key disciples such as in the Nakulipita Sutta where the words were elaborated by Sariputta.In the Atthasalini, it gives the following example from DN: “ ‘Bhikkhus, learned is Mahakaccana, profoundly wise is Mahakaccana. If you had asked me the same question, I would have answered exactly as he has done.’ Thus since the time when the Teacher gave his approval, the whole suttanta became the word of the Buddha. And it is the same with the suttas expounded by Ananda and others.” ***** (Also see note at end of post* regarding the early divisions of texts ) S:As you suggested, the Great disciples were ‘endowed with knowledge’ such that they needed to hear relatively little. One more quote about Ananda this time from the Atthasalini p.19: “The Elder Ananda was indeed of wide experience, a student of the Three Pitakas, and could learn, recite and preach, as he stood, one thousand five hundred stanzas or sixty thousand feet, as easily as though he were gathering creepers and flowers....None but the Buddha was able to teach, or attain the distinction of teaching this elder the actual text, word by word.....” As a simple example, if a Burmese monk has memorised the Abhidamattha Sangaha, he may hear one word such as 'rupa' or 'vedana' and immediately be able to give all the details from the text. Perhaps in a similar way, a Great Disciple has not only memorised but thoroughly comprehended the entire Teachings to date, so that relatively few words would be necessary to expound the details contained in the Abhidhamma. Just my ideas (becoming a little speculative;-)), anyway. ..... S:I greatly appreciate all the comments in the rest of your post, most of which are reluctantly snipped. Just a couple - ..... Rob:> Nevertheless, the Tavatimsa heaven incident occured during the > seventh vassa (rainy season retreat), so the Buddha would have been > around for correct any mistakes made by Sariputta. The Abhidhamma > must have been recited and retaught many times in the subsequent > years while the Buddha was still alive. ..... This is a good point. I also understand that the Abhidhamma is always taught by Buddhas in this heavenly realm in its entirety. Details of previous Buddhas and the 30 'regulations' for 'Self-Awakened' Buddhas, including the teaching of Abhidhamma in this realm, is given in the Mahuratthavilaasinii, the commentary to the Buddhavamsa (Chronicle of Buddhas), transl into Eng (PTS) as 'The Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning. "These, thirty exactly, are regulation for all Buddhas". The very last 'regulation' is "the final nibbana after having attained the twenty-four hundred thousand crores of attainments." ..... Rob:> The words are not as important as the message. If we get caught up > in the words, we become scholars. Being a scholar doesn't help us > get rebirth in a good plane, nor does it help us escape from > Samsara. Nothing wrong with being a scholar (Sariputta was one), but > it is not enough. If we focus on the message, (hopefully) we > translate this focus into action; study -> practice -> realization > (pariyatti -> patipatti -> pativedha). ..... S: These are very helpful points and I agree that the points made here easily become academic. We both share a great appreciation of the contents of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, but I'm just pointing out these quotes as for some people it is discouraging if they have the idea that the Abhidhamma was only taught by 'later' bhikkhus. In regard to your good reminders, let me finally add this one (again;-)) from the Atthasalini p.31” “The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma makes his mind run to exces in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequently he gets mental distraction.” Good reminders for us all and thank you for your other helpful ones. Look forward to any more comments. Metta, Sarah *Note: In an earlier series, I also wrote about how the Khudakka Nikaya (of the Suttanta) included in the First Council recital includes the Abhidhamma texts: “In the Atthasalini, we read: “Which is the Khuddaka Nikaya? the whole of the Vinaya-Pitaka, Abhidhamma-Pitaka, and the fifteen divisions.....beginning with Khuddakapatha, Dhammapada, all the remaining words of the Buddha, excluding the four Nikayas....” In both the Bahiranidana and the Atthasalini, detail is given of the explanation in detail of how the 84,000 units of dhamma-vinaya text is formed and this includes how: “Thus as rehearsed at the council, the Abhidhamma is Pitaka by Pitaka classification, Khuddaka-Nikaya by Nikaya classification, Veyyakarana by part classification and constitutes two or three thousand untis of text by the classification of textual units” and “In the Abhidhamma each trinal or dual classification, as well as each clasification of conscious intervals, forms one unit of text.” “ ***** More detail in this earlier post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m8647.html ============================================================= 19781 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Smallchap and Sarah about vipassana practice Hi Eddie(Smallchap, Dinesh and All), Glad to read all your comments and links on this thread. I don’t think I’ve lived up to my honoured spot in the subject heading yet;-) ..... --- Eddie Lou wrote: > Hi, All, > > One possibility is - vipassana practice itself, > whether under guidance or not. > > I myself know precious few of practical vipassana, > which is how Gotama attained Full and Final > enlightment. ..... You may find it helpful to look at the following old messages with definitions of ‘vipassana’. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6954 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8170 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3663 There are others too under ‘vipassana’ at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Let us know if anything is not clear or you disagree with any of the points - as Rob M just mentioned (to Howard),we often learn most from the disagreements;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 19782 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Swee Boon, thanks for your further comments: wrote: > The Buddha though having eradicated the roots of attachment, > aversion and ignorance, yet: > > Is cetana by way of conascent kamma-condition present in the Buddha? > IMHO, I think the answer is yes. ..... yes ..... > Is cetana by way of asynchronous kamma-condition present in the > Buddha? IMHO, I think the answer is no. ..... no ..... > Is vipaka by way of asynchronous kamma-condition present in the > Buddha? IMHO, I think the answer is yes. ..... yes....lots of agreement so far;-) ..... > In this way, I see kamma being the chief reality and chief condition > that ties us to samsara. For even the Buddha Gotama while alive was > still bound to this samsaric existence for the last time. Buddha > Gotama was still kamma though the three unwholesome roots were > eradicated. ..... This may be a quibble only - I would say the arahant if free from the ties of samsara, the cycle birth and death, when the last of the defilements are eradicated. As you say, there are still conditions for vipaka cittas and rupas conditioned by kamma to arise. There is no kusala or akusala kamma performed by the arahant, however, as we agree. There are only sobhana kiriya cittas which are ‘inoperative’ and thus there are no more links in the paticca samuppada (dependent origination) cycle. (I still don’t follow you when you say “Gotama was still kamma”, but am happy to let it rest). ..... > But Sarah, I am not sure if the three wholesome roots are eradicated > by an arahant. I don't think so, but perhaps you can > elaborate/clarify here. ..... Good question! As I understand, as there are no more kusala cittas, only kiriya (inoperative)cittas, accompanied by sobhana(‘beautiful’)mental factors, we can refer to sobhana hetus (beautiful or wholesome roots), but not to kusala roots. There must be roots for cittas in the javana process. ..... > > By kamma the world moves, > By kamma men (& women) live, > And by kamma are all beings bound, > As by its pin the rolling chariot wheels. > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid3.html ..... Thank you - a very good reminder indeed. With the other discussions going on, perhaps we also need to consider the roles of supportive and obstructive kamma, favourable and unfavourable factors, meaning kusala or akusala kamma have more or fewer chances to bring their results. These were discussed before once or twice and are all given in detail in the Sammohavinodani, the commentary to the Vibhanga (Book of Analysis).Nina also adds some of these details under kamma condition in 'Conditions': http://www.zolag.co.uk/condf.pdf Let me share one on the root of attachment (always accompanied by the root of ignorance too): The Cause of Suffering: “Monks, what is the noble truth about the origin of suffering? Just this craving, leading to rebirth, accompanied by pleasure and emotion, and finding satisfaction now here now there, namely the craving for sense-pleasure, the craving for new life and the craving for annihilation.” DN 11,308 ..... I think in any case we agree that these 2 conditions (hetu or root and kamma) are very, very important conditioning factors. Metta, Sarah. p.s A friend off-list asked me to post a list or a link to a list of the 24 conditions. They are listed in this post of Shin’s: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/640 =========================================================== 19783 From: Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Robert (and Ray) - In a message dated 2/19/03 10:25:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > Dear Ray and Howard, > Thanks for explaining your views on kamma. Just to make sure I > understand you I quote a little from the Dhammapada atthakattha > below. I think you agree that it is standard Theravada teaching, and > then does it fit with your comments? > http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm#threegroupsof > A group of bhikkhus were on their way to pay homage to the Buddha and > they stopped at a village on the way. Some people were cooking alms- > food for those bhikkhus when one of the houses caught fire and a ring > of fire flew up into the air. At that moment, a crow came flying, got > caught in the ring of fire and dropped dead in the central part of > the village. The bhikkhus seeing the dead crow observed that only the > Buddha would be able to explain for what evil deed this crow had to > die in this manner. After taking alms-food they continued on their > journey to pay homage to the Buddha, and also to ask about the > unfortunate crow. > > The Buddha answer to the first group: "Bhikkhus, once there was a > farmer who had an ox. The ox was very lazy and also very stubborn. It > could not be coaxed to do any work; it would lie down chewing the cud > or else go to sleep. The farmer lost his temper many times on account > of this lazy, stubborn animal; so in anger he tied a straw rope round > the neck of the ox and set fire to it, and the ox died. On account of > this evil deed the, farmer had suffered for a long time in niraya. > and in serving out the remaining part of his punishment, he had been > burnt to death in the last seven existences." > Then, a bhikkhu remarked, "O indeed! There is no escape from evil > consequences for one who has done evil, even if he were in the sky, > or in the ocean, or in a cave." To him, the Buddha said, "Yes, > Bhikkhu! You are right; even in the sky or anywhere else, there is no > place which is beyond the reach of evil consequences." > Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: > Verse 127. Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in the > cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where one > may escape from the consequences of an evil deed. > > At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti > Fruition. > Robertk > =========================== A possible scenario: The farmer, a man consumed by anger, killed an ox by fire. This left an indelible mark, a seed, in the farmers's mindstream. This terrible deed led firstly to rebirth as an animal, a crow. Later on, encountering fire, the crow, instead of avoiding the fire, was distracted somehow (he was predisposed to miss the danger of fire), and he flew right into it - he was consumed by the fire - more correctly (and poetically), he was consumed by his anger. Does kamma leave mental seeds, and do those seeds have effects? Yes, but always by some actual means, some actual mechanism. This is how I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19784 From: Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) Hi, TG - Thanks for the following. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/19/03 10:43:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > >============================ > > My mind is like a sieve when it comes to remembering sutta > >references > >- I'm sorry. But I do recall that at least one such sutta was quoted on > >DSG. > >Perhaps someone else will come up with a reference. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > > The Sutta is in Book 4 of Samyutta Nikaya. Vedanasamyutta # 21. In > Bhikkhu > Bodhi's translation, The Connected Discourse of the Buddha, it is on pages > 1278 -- 1279. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19785 From: bodhi342 Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Howard and All, This is an interesting dialogue, and I do not want to interrupt its flow. My questions below are peripheral to the main thrust of this argument, and intended to seek clarification only. Please help me sort out some confusing aspects in relation to what is said elsewhere on dsg about Abhidhamma. How is "This left an indelible mark, a seed, in the farmers's mindstream" reconciled with understanding of Anatta? If we believe, in no-self, why should we be bothered with kammic seeds etc. persisting from existence cycle to existence cycle? Why should we be concerned with concepts such as 'punishment' (mentioned in a prior message) for the old farmer for past misdeeds? How is concern about kamma consistent with concentrating on what is just occuring in the moment? How is the the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent with the expectation that we should test any teaching against reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and references to devas etc.] I guess I am looking more for logical explanations, instead of quotation from suttas, to buttress a viewpoint. Thanks. metta, dharam 19786 From: Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 4:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Dharam - In a message dated 2/20/03 11:14:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, bodhi342@y... writes: > Hi Howard and All, > > This is an interesting dialogue, and I do not want to interrupt its > flow. My questions below are peripheral to the main thrust of this > argument, and intended to seek clarification only. Please help me > sort out some confusing aspects in relation to what is said elsewhere > on dsg about Abhidhamma. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm the wrong person to ask about the relationship of anything to abhidhamma. I am not an abhidhammika. But I will comment on a few points you raise. ---------------------------------------------- > > How is "This left an indelible mark, a seed, in the farmers's > mindstream" reconciled with understanding of Anatta? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand the use of the term "seed" as metaphorical. What I believe is the case is that inclinations/tendencies are replicated from mindstate to mindstate until, when finally conditions are right, they "bear fruit" and no longer replicate. ------------------------------------------------ > > If we believe, in no-self, why should we be bothered with kammic > seeds etc. persisting from existence cycle to existence cycle? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that the full and precise details of kamma are important to the goal of the Dhamma. But I do think that wrong understandings of kamma - and I make no presumption here of who is right and who is wrong - can thwart one's progress. I particularly am concerned about any views which may lead to a sense of hopelessness and fatalism. ----------------------------------------------- > > > Why should we be concerned with concepts such as 'punishment' > (mentioned in a prior message) for the old farmer for past misdeeds? > > How is concern about kamma consistent with concentrating on what is > just occuring in the moment? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Of primary importance, as I see it, is following the training program laid out by the Buddha. Intellectual considerations, while of definite importance in helping us understand the Dhamma, pale in comparison to moment to moment attending to what arises. ------------------------------------------------- > > How is the the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent > with the expectation that we should test any teaching against > reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and > references to devas etc.] > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: This was merely a vehicle for understanding of principles, and trying to determine what makes sense. (I leave it for others to decide whether we are dealing with mythical events or not in this case. It really doesn't matter to the issue.) -------------------------------------------- > > I guess I am looking more for logical explanations, instead of > quotation from suttas, to buttress a viewpoint. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that both are useful. One disclaimer: We shouldn't be all too sure about our logic. For one thing, the reasoning may be flawed. For another, out premisses, particularly our unstated (or even unrealized) premisses are often based on the three poisons. ----------------------------------------------- Thanks.> > > metta, > dharam > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19787 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:05am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 27 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 27 We read further on in the Commentary: Someone may be offended by another person who is overcome by anger, who commits a wrong but does not even apologize. However, the person who is wronged may cause the other and himself to be reconciled and united in friendship by speaking the following words, ³You should come, you should learn the recitation, listen to the explanations (of the Dhamma), and be diligent in mental development. What is the reason that you have become estranged?² This is his view, it is his nature to be full of loving-kindness. He is superior, he can be considered as someone who fulfills a weighty task, because he undertakes the task of friendship. The Bodhisatta exhorted in that way the recluse who was his father. From then on the recluse who was his father trained himself and devoted himself to ascetical practices. However, that was only in his past life, and in his present life he acted as he used to act. When his son pushed him with his head in his back he became angry and impatient. He turned back and started anew from the same point and walked from there on again so that they arrived in the Jeta Grove when it was already dark. This shows us that nobody can control dhammas, no matter whether they are akusala or kusala. Sometimes there are conditions for the arising of many kusala dhammas. At other times there are conditions for the arising of akusala which has not yet been eradicated. During one lifespan someone may have tried to train himself to eliminate defilements, but if defilements have not been completely eradicated, there are still latent tendencies like germs which can be the condition for their arising. Therefore, someone¹s actions will be in accordance with the strength of those defilements. If someone has listened to the Dhamma time and again, he will see that the Dhamma the Buddha taught is profound, that it is difficult to understand it and to penetrate the characteristics of realities which the ariyans have clearly realized. Thus we can see the characteristic of patience which is kusala as it is to be applied in daily life. There must be patience to be able to see that the Dhamma we heard is difficult to understand, but that nevertheless understanding can grow gradually, that it grows all the time. Then one day in the future we shall receive the result of patience which is the highest ascetism, that is, when we are able to realize the four noble Truths, just as all the ariyans. A person with paññå will see with regard to his own life that it is essential to have the utmost patience in each situation. One should have patience to refrain from aversion, displeasure, regret or feeling slighted by the action and speech of someone else, patience in all situations, also with regard to the issues of life and death. When someone understands the Dhamma he will see the significance of patience, patience to be diligent in the study of the Dhamma, to listen to the Dhamma and to investigate and consider it. We should study and practise the Dhamma with sincerity, sincerity which can lead to becoming the perfection of truthfulness, dealt with in the next chapter. ******** End of Ch 7. 19788 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and concepts Dear Howard, Smallchap and all, a correction to be made: It is at sammassana nana, the third stage of tender insight, that the arising and falling of the khandhas is directly experienced. Nina op 18-02-2003 19:07 schreef nina van gorkom op nilo@e...: > we may think of khandha as a whole, it seems as if it is a concept. It is a > concept so long as we have not yet directly experienced the khandhas. When > the second stage of insight is reached the khandhas can be directly > experienced, dhammas that arise and fall away, that are past, present and > future. 19789 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussion on Satipatthana at the Foundation week 5 no 2 op 19-02-2003 16:11 schreef Jaran Jainhuknan op jjn@b...: Dear Jaran, Thank you very much. I especially like the reminder of the moment, always the moment: A Sujin:< Is there a need to know how many magga factors at > the vipassana ~na~na moment? At the moment of vipassana > ~na~na or even of satipatthana, it is beyond the theory. > What matters is now, but we almost always overlook [the > characteristic of dhamma at] this moment. When > satisa.mpajjhanna arises, do we need to know how many > cetasikas co-arising?> N: And this one, can we hear enough of this? Daily life can't be stressed enough. being seen, ... and both now quickly have fallen away. > Similarly, at the moment of hearing, there is hearing and > what is being heard. If we are to experience the realities, > we will experience the characteristics of hearing that it is > the element that ``knows'' an object and what is heard as > the element that is being experienced. All of these happen > in daily, ordinary life.> N: True, we have doubts when caught in the details, until realities are experienced by insight, such as doubts about kamma and vipaka, doubts about vipassana nana, what it is like, how it can penetrate characteristics. You quote: detail of the concept [as in theory] of dhamma which is not > the direct experience of characteristics of dhamma. N: With appreciation, Nina. 19790 From: Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and concepts Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/20/03 1:07:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, Smallchap and all, > a correction to be made: > It is at sammassana nana, the third stage of tender insight, that the > arising and falling of the khandhas is directly experienced. > Nina > > op 18-02-2003 19:07 schreef nina van gorkom op nilo@e...: > > >we may think of khandha as a whole, it seems as if it is a concept. It is > a > >concept so long as we have not yet directly experienced the khandhas. When > >the second stage of insight is reached the khandhas can be directly > >experienced, dhammas that arise and fall away, that are past, present and > >future. > > > ========================== Is that the stage called "bhanga"? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19791 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:26am Subject: Anatta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342 " wrote: > > If we believe, in no-self, why should we be bothered with kammic > seeds etc. persisting from existence cycle to existence cycle? > > Why should we be concerned with concepts such as 'punishment' > (mentioned in a prior message) for the old farmer for past misdeeds? > > How is concern about kamma consistent with concentrating on what is > just occuring in the moment? > > How is the the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent > with the expectation that we should test any teaching against > reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and > references to devas etc.] > > Thanks. > _________________ "I guess I am looking more for logical explanations, instead of > quotation from suttas, to buttress a viewpoint." Dear Dharam, The Tipitaka and commentaries are the words of the Buddha and arahants - why would you want to go past these in favour of the explanations of others? Nevertheless I give a simple reply with the understanding that this is far inferior to what has been handed down and recorded by the monks. You ask about how kamma fits with anatta, no-self? We could ask how could there be anatta without kamma. Anatta is simply another way to say conditioned - that all dhammas arise due to various conditions and cannot arise when those conditions are absent. Kamma is a basic condition. You ask how it applies to the present moment? What is occuring now, at this instant? Is seeing consciousness arising? If it is then that is vipaka, the result of kamma. Is there thinking after the seeing; is there liking or disliking of what is seen or thought about? If so that is kilesa (defilement) that may lead to new kamma , or even be kamma , here and now. I talked about this in the three rounds of kamma, kilesa and vipaka vatta. If kamma is not understood 'anatta' is simply a word. It becomes a concept to think about rather than the actual fact of moments as they are. I can write more about this if you wish. RobertK 19792 From: robmoult Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:11pm Subject: Attention Suan Hi Suan, I tried replying to your message and attaching the paper (only 250K after zipping) but my message kept getting kicked back. The error message is quite cryptic, but I think that I am being treated as "SPAM" by your email system. Please email me another email address for me to use. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Our company just installed a SPAM filter, but I don't think that it would block outgoing messages. I even tried setting up a new Yahoo! Mail address and send it out from there; same problem. 19793 From: Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Way 53, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1. Clear Comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 67 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html If to a bhikkhu who performs the duties detailed above, betimes, (there arises an intense feeling of discomfort owing to hunger) if his kamma-produced caloricity becomes very strong (pajjalati, lit, flames up and lays hold of the derived, assimilated material of the body owing to the absence of undigested food in the stomach, if sweat exudes from his body and if he is unable to concentrate on his subject of meditation, he takes his bowl and the robe quite early in the morning, worships the relic shrine speedily, and enters the village to get gruel just when the village herds go out of their pens for pasturing. After he gets the gruel he goes to sitting-hall and drinks it. Then, with the swallowing of just two or three mouthfuls, the kamma-produced caloricity letting go the material of the body -- i.e., the inner lining of the stomach [udara patalam] lays hold of the property of the food taken in. And that bhikkhu, having got to the assuagement of the distress of the caloric process like a man bathed with a hundred pots of cool water, having partaken of the (rest of the) gruel with the thought of meditation uppermost in mind, washed bowl and mouth, attended to the subject of meditation till the later forenoon meal, wandered for alms in the remaining places -- in the places where he got no gruel and so where he could still go for alms -- and taken the meal with just the thought of meditation uppermost in mind, returns, having taken up just that subject of meditation which is thence forward present in his mind. This person is called the one who does not carry forth but returns with the thought of meditation. [Tika] "Kamma-produced caloricity" [kammajja tejo] is an expression referring to the function of that part of the alimentary tract where the bile helps digestion and from which vital heat spreads -- the grahani according to Ayurveda. It is stated that the commentator said kamma-produced caloricity concerning "the seizure," the name of the alimentary function explained above [gahanim sandhayaha]. [T] "Becomes very strong means": generates a condition of heat. [T] "Subject of meditation does not get on to the road of contemplative thought" owing to the disappearance of concentration of the wearied body through hunger-fatigue. [T] When in the stomach, indeed, property like cooked rice (called the underived, the unassimilated or that which is not due to pre-clinging) is absent; kamma-produced caloricity gets hold of the inner lining of the stomach. That causes the utterance of words like the following: "I am hungry; give me food." [T] When food is taken, kamma-produced caloricity having let go the inner lining of the stomach, gets hold of the food-property. Then the living being becomes calm. Therefore in the commentaries kamma-produced caloricity is spoken of as (a malignant spirit, a devourer of the living, frequenting pools, fording-places and the like and known by the shadow it casts on the water) a shadow-demon. And bhikkhus, like this one, who, after drinking gruel and exerting themselves in the development of insight, reached the state of Arahantship in the Buddha's Dispensation are past all numbering (so many have they been). In the Island of the Lion Race, alone [sihala dipe yeva], there is not a seat of sitting-hall in the various villages which is not a place where a bhikkhu, having sat and drunk gruel, attained Arahantship (tesu tesu gamesu asanasalaya na tam asanam atthi yattha yagum pivitva arahattam patta bhikkhu natthi]. [T] "And bhikkhus, like this one," and so forth. With these words the commentator points out the state of benefit of the bhikkhu attending to the thoughts of meditation, even, in the way aforesaid. But a bhikkhu who is a loose liver [pamada vihari, lit. liver in negligence, carelessness or indolence], who is a slacker [nikkhitta dhuro, lit. One who has thrown away the yoke -- or the burden of right exertion -- and so is an irresponsible person], having broken all observances [sabba vattani bhinditva] whilst living spiritually frozen through the fivefold bondage of mind [pañca vidha ceto vinibandha baddha citto viharanto], having entered the village for alms without having even shown a sign of the fact that there is a thing called a subject of meditation (of contemplation), and having walked about and eaten his meal in unbefitting company, comes out of the village an empty fellow. This bhikkhu is called a person who neither carries forth nor returns with the thought of meditation. Who is spoken of with the words "This one carries forth and carries back" must be known just through the means of the observance of carrying forth and carrying back (the subject of meditation from the beginning to the end of the journey to and from the village). [T] "Just through the means of the observance of carrying forth and carrying back" means: By way of whatsoever going for and returning from alms-gathering only with the thought of meditation. 19794 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:26pm Subject: Kalupahana (was Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment) Hi, Robert ~ --- Dear Connie, Could you say what you like about these articles. Maybe quote some passages. thanks robert > Kalupahana on: > "The Buddhist conception of time and temporality" > "The Buddhist conceptions of subject and object and their moral implications" > "Causality: The Central Philosophy of Buddhism" ---- There were a couple of other articles by or about Kalupahana from other sites I didn't list. One was "Di^nnaaga's theory of immaterialism". I don't remember any other names right now and didn't bother to put them in my half dozen screenfulls of notes under 'Kalupahana'. This first quote from 'time and temporality' is my favorite and Howard wondered where he could find. I just thought he might be interested in the others as well since he's mentioned Kalupahana before and made me curious. I like it because it makes me ask myself what I really think when I say "all things are present". His [Buddha's] criticism runs thus: Monks, there are these three linguistic conventions or usages of words or terms which are distinct, have been distinct in the past, are distinct at present and will be distinct in the future and which are not ignored by the recluses and brahmans who are wise. Which three? Whatever form (ruupa) there has been, which has ceased to be, which is past and has changed is called, reckoned or termed "has been" (ahosi); it is not reckoned as "it exists" (atthi) nor as "it will be" (bhavissati). (The same is said about the other four aggregates--sensation, perception, dispositions and consciousness.)... Whatever form is not arisen, not come to be, is called, reckoned or termed is "it will be" (bhavissati) and is not reckoned as "it exists" or as "it has been." ...Whatever form has become and has manifested itself is called, reckoned or termed as "it exists" (atthi) and is not reckoned as "it has been" or as "it will be."(30) It is very clear from this passage that the theory according to which the past and the future exist in the present or even the view that a thing exists during the past, the present, and the future are the results of unwarranted interpretation of linguistic usage. I like this one regarding "telling the future in Buddhism": As is well known, omniscience (sabba~n~nutaa), as later understood, was not claimed by the Buddha. We come across only two instances when the Buddha made any kind of prediction into the future with much certainty. One is the prediction that a 'stream entrant' (sotaapanna) is certain (niyata) to attain enlightenment (sambodhiparaayana), and the other is that a person who has eliminated craving and thus attained enlightenment will not be reborn (khii.na jaati, nfpara.m itthattaaya). Miscellaneous: the group of conditions (hetusamuuha) referred to in the texts, both Paali and Chinese, do not refer to a difference between hetu (cause) and pratyaya (condition) "nearly eighteen of the twenty-four causal correlations enumerated in the Pa.t.thaana have counterparts in the Sarvaastivaada and Yogaacaara theories. We have not been able to find parallels for six of the relations enumerated by the Theravaadins. However, in addition to those mentioned, the Yogaacaara list contains thirteen more relations for which parallels are not traceable in the Theravaada Abhidhamma" "even extrasensory perceptions and emancipation are not considered supernatural occurrences in Buddhism. They are natural causal occurrences" causality and form, the two aspects of the object (aalambanasya dvibhaaga) which are necessary to prove its existence (astitva) From time immemorial this objective aspect (vi.sayaruupa) and the force which transforms consciousness into the subject-object relationship, that is, the sense organ, continue to be mutually conditioned. Therefore, according to Di^nnaaga, this subject-object discrimination (generally called vikalpa) carries more reality than the material external object, which has no reality whatsoever. Here there is no denial of the validity of sense perception. I know none of that really answers 'what I like about the articles'. Hope you don't mind. Maybe it gives you some idea of what I think I don't know. peace, connie 19795 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:38pm Subject: Re: About Christmas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > How are you? I've got a toy from my teacher, a > doll. That doll dosen't work too much for me. You are > lucky that you got a wallet from your parents. I've > got nothing from my parents because I don't celebrate > Christmas. > > What is a Buddhist temple? I've never been in > one.. Why do you like to go to the Buddhist temple? > Good luck. > > Love, > Janet Hi Janet, Sorry that it has taken me a while to respond. I am glad that you got a doll for Christmas from your teacher but I am not sure what you mean that it doesn't `work for you'. I thought dolls just laid there! :-) When I was a little boy I didn't like dolls, I liked little toy cars the most. Especially to play with them in 'dirt cities' with my friends. :-) But I also liked my microscope and chemistry set. Well, let me get to your question. What is a Buddhist temple and why do I like to go there? Well, there are different kinds of Buddhist temples, and I don't know about them all, so I will tell you about mine. My Buddhist temple, Wat Promkunaram, is a temple where monks live to practice and teach the teachings of the Buddha and people can go there to learn them. You see, when the Buddha first started teaching people about Buddhism and there were a few monks, there weren't any Buddhist temples. The monks would live and sleep outdoors, or they would build little huts for themselves called `Kutis'. However, the Buddha became very popular and there were a lot of monks, and people wanted them to be nearby to answer questions and help solve problems (since monks are very peaceful and wise), so some rich people who believed in the Buddha's teachings asked him if they could build temples for the monks. The Buddha agreed…with certain rules for the temples and how they were to be used by the monks. At my temple, I go there to learn meditation, learn Buddhism from the monks, and to offer my service to the monks…just like when the Buddha was alive that is what laypeople would do. My temple does a lot for me so I do a lot for it. Here are some of things I do at my Buddhist temple: Paint, clean, cook, wash dishes, plant flowers, cut trees, assist/organize meditation retreats, film and edit special events, repair computers, prepare financial reports, assist with immigration issues, tutor in English, transport monks to events, donate books and Buddhist art objects, arrange college scholarships for monks, etc. Most of the people who come to the Buddhist temple come on just Sunday, but some people come to the temple a lot. I go to the temple as often as I can and help as much as I can. I have been a temple disciple of Wat Promkunaram for about eight years now. I do all of these things because it makes me happy to be helping the world. When you assist in the teaching and the encouragement of the Buddha's teachings, there is nothing more fulfilling than that…at least to me. I hope this answers your question, Janet. Take care of yourself and I hope you got that doll to work! :-) Love, James 19796 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:41am Subject: Back again Dear James, I am actually full of questions, I love asking questions. I think the new cook poem is really gross! Eating turtle and monkey meat? GROSS! Actually Chinese in the mainland do eat all those stuff but not me! The food in the poem is quite gross. Here are some of my questions: Are you really coming to Hong Kong? Can you explain more about the 8-foot-path? Is it something to memorize? Do you put your sister's picture on the alter? What does light unto ourselves mean?(In your letter to Kiana) Love Janice 19797 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:43am Subject: Janice's letter Dear Kom, Thank you for answering my question! Now I realized about the vocabulary you taught me! How big was the real Buddha? What color was the real Buddha? Does the Buddha really have its own language? Metta, Janice 19798 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:45am Subject: teachings Dear Christine, Thank you for your answer. Heidi is a French Poodle.(i think that's what you meant .) Can you please tell me more about the teachings taught by the the Buddha that could be like blessings? Are there any other teachings taught by the Buddha that you really like? metta, Hilary 19799 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 6:47am Subject: Re: Dear --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear James, > > I read your letter number 18681 you wrote to Janice. > It's my first time writing a letter to you. I just > chose any letters you sent to different people and now > I am making a reply. Because this is my first letter, > I will introduce myself. My name is Ki Yong Kim from > Korea. I am 14 years old this year. Please introduce > yourself when you make a reply. I think this is the > longest letter I ever read. WOW. I read that you write > poems! And I read one of your poems about your car and > it was quite funny. > > I have some questions. I never knew there were > American monks! I thought Americans are all > Christians. Why do American become Buddhist monks? I > don't think I have anymore questions because you never > wrote a letter to me before and I don't have anything > more to talk about. Sorry. I will reply when you do~ > Bye > > From, Ki Yong Hi Star Kid Ki Yong! Well, very nice to meet you. Since you would like a formal introduction, here goes: My name is James Mitchell from Phoenix, Arizona, USA. I am a teacher (English, Speech, Drama, and Technology) and I am originally from Kansas City, Missouri, USA. I moved to Phoenix when I graduated college because I wanted to live in the desert. Yes, I write very long letters because I love to communicate. I believe that most people have lost the art of communication, so I try to compensate for them! ƒº just kidding. I just have a lot of things to share. I am glad that you liked my poem. Now, to answer your questions¡Kwhich is also going to take a very long letter! Yes, there are American monks, but not a whole lot of them. Being a Buddhist monk is not a tradition in America, and is actually completely foreign to the American way of thinking. The first European settlers who came to America did so to escape religious and social persecution in England. They were Christians that didn¡¦t believe in the authority of the Church of England and didn¡¦t like the power and corruption of the aristocracy found there. Some people in England had a lot of money and power because of the families they were born into, and they didn¡¦t work at all; while other people were continually poor because of the families they were born into, and they had to work for the rich people. The people who escaped this system to come to America established the idea that it wasn¡¦t the family that one was born into that was important, but how hard someone worked that should determine success. Not only that, but success from work was the proper way to worship God and to demonstrate that one was blessed. So America still has a ¡¥Work Ethic¡¦ that is deeply ingrained in the thinking of most of the people. Monks who are not supposed to work but are supposed to live off of the charity of other people go against that work ethic in a very strong way. To a great extent, Americans would view an American monk as someone who is just too lazy to work and not a person worthy of respect or support. However, the Buddha¡¦s teachings go against this way of thinking because he taught that it isn¡¦t money or success that determines a person¡¦s worth, or even spiritual enlightenment that determines a person¡¦s worth, he taught that there isn¡¦t any such thing as ¡¥a person¡¦s worth¡¦¡K.because there is nothing constant in each of us to assign a worth to. He taught that work and monasticism and charity should be based on kindness and love rather than trying to determine and build individual worth. This is often easier said than done. American monks are a very rare breed indeed because they go against two levels of wrong thinking: 1. The American Work Ethic and 2. Individual Worth. Americans become monks for different reasons. Some of those reasons might be good and some might be bad; just like the reasons anyone in any other culture might become monks. But any American who decides to become a monk has a lot of willpower and is really different. When I was going to become a monk, I got a lot of different reactions from people. Some people told me that I was too intelligent to become a monk (like monks are supposed to be stupid or something); and some people told me that I was too physically attractive to become a monk (like monks are supposed to be ugly). Only a handful of the people I know were supportive of me becoming a monk. Ultimately I didn¡¦t become a monk because I learned that I am too independent to become a monk¡KI may become a hermit instead...hehehe...just kidding¡Kor maybe not. Well, this has been a rather long letter and I don¡¦t even know if I have answered your questions. Maybe there aren¡¦t specific answers for your questions, but I hope you have a better idea now. Take care of yourself and study hard! Love, James 19800 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 8:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight. Co. Hi RobertK, > What do you understand by momentary concentration (khaninka samadhi); > in theory , practice and daily life? In theory, there must be an object of reference. For example, according to Mahasi Sayadaw, the object of reference is the arising and subsiding of the abdomen. No matter what other senses impinge on the mind, the meditator is to only take note of the impingements and return to noticing the object of reference. If a meditator papancizes on an impingement and fails to return back to the object of reference for an extended period of time, then concentration is poor. If a meditator is able to concentrate on the object of reference to such an extent that papancizing of the other sense impingements are suppressed, then concentration is good. Also, if a meditator papancizes on the object of reference, then concentration is also poor because papancizing on it introduce a train of thoughts that is separate from the noticing of it. In practice and daily life, I feel that I have already practised such concentration in my past lives; it's like a natural ability. When I was about 7-8 years old, I always liked to watch the clouds pass by the bedroom window while I lay on my bed. It's not that the clouds are *nice* to watch or that the blue sky is *nice* to see. But as I concentrate on the movement of the clouds, there is a kind of inner peace that develops in the mind. This movement of the clouds is my object of reference. Another instance is a time when I was shampooing my head. As I concentrate on the movement of my hands going around touching my head, a sudden realization dawns that there is no self that directs my hands to go around my head. I then realized that this mind is nothing more than a "monkey" that goes around doing its own business without any self to direct it. I know then that there is direction without a director; there is control without a controller. I can still realize this not-selfness when I raise my concentration to such a level. But at other times, this not-selfness is not readily apparent. Usually, I take a mental object as my object of reference. When I am walking, I like to engage in thoughts on a particular subject, especially aspects of the Dhamma. As I think, I am also mindful of where I should land my feet next. Although the train of thoughts is not disrupted, but it is certainly slower than when I am sitting down. Sometimes when thinking deeply about an aspect of the Dhamma while walking slowly around the house, a kind of bodily rapture down the spine diffusing to the body can occur. Why this occurs, I do not know. But there is no fear when it occurs. Earlier on, I was thinking of how to write my reply to you while I was washing my clothes. As I concentrated on this mental object, I was also mindful of the procedure for washing my clothes. But this kind of concentration is not strong. Sometimes, when concentrating on a mental object, I can be distracted by another mental object. When this happens, I know that concentration is poor. And this usually happens when there is worry over some other thing or there is restlessness. Sometimes, when concentrating on a mental object, I can be so absorbed in it to such an extent that I do not even know that another person is calling my name, even though I know that there is some noises/sounds. It is only when the person comes very near me and call my name then I "wake up" from my "trance". Most of the times, there is litte concentration. Especially when working (when everything is rush, rush, rush) and also when I indulge in the five sensual senses. This is my understanding of momentary concentration. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19801 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Howard, > How did the prior bad deeds put them where they were on 9-11 so that > they would fall victim to the attack? Did the kamma seeds know about > the upcoming attack!? The kamma seeds obviously did not put them where they were on 911. If it did, then it would contradict Sivaka sutta (whatever happens is all caused by what was done in the past). They were there because of cetana (read new kamma). They were not there because of vipaka (results of kamma). The victims' presence at the WTC on 911 was not caused by what was done in the past. A person's absence at the WTC on 911 was also not caused by what was done in the past. Is the Buddha's presence at the foot of the mountain where Devadatta threw down the huge boulder intending to kill the Buddha caused by what was done in the past? Certainly not. It is caused by cetana (read new kamma) by way of conascent kamma-condition. A Buddha cannot be killed by the assault of another person. Why? Because there is no supporting vipaka for such a thing to happen. Vipaka cannot cause someone to be at the WTC on 911. But if a person is at the WTC on 911 and there is no supporting vipaka for his untimely death, he would still survive. You might think this to be very unlikely, but the results of kamma is imponderable. That is why it is said: 'Of kamma I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; kamma is the matrix; kamma is my kinsman; KAMMA IS MY REFUGE. Whatever kamma I perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be heir.' Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19802 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:59am Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Howard, > A possible scenario: The farmer, a man consumed by anger, killed an ox > by fire. This left an indelible mark, a seed, in the farmers's mindstream. > This terrible deed led firstly to rebirth as an animal, a crow. Later on, > encountering fire, the crow, instead of avoiding the fire, was distracted > somehow (he was predisposed to miss the danger of fire), and he flew right > into it - he was consumed by the fire - more correctly (and poetically), he > was consumed by his anger. A rebirth kammic seed and a life-destructive kammic seed need not be the same seed. For example, the rebirth of Maha-Mogallana is due to a kusala kammic seed but his destructive death is due to an akusala kammic seed. There is no relation between these two seeds then. > Does kamma leave mental seeds, and do those seeds have effects? Yes, > but always by some actual means, some actual mechanism. This is how I see it. But I still don't get what you mean when you say that not all that happens to one is vipaka. Aren't you saying previously that the deaths of the victims of 911 are not their vipaka? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19803 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipassana Dear smallchap, see below. op 20-02-2003 03:22 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: > > S: With sammadhi as the > supporting factor to cause the mind to be aleart yet passive, and > with an equanimous attitude, one should be able to walk away from the > pitfalls. N: As I see it, it is panna that clearly discerns when there is attachment and when there is detachment, and also, what leads to detachment from self. Panna knows, understands. It is accompanied by samadhi, but samadhi focusses on the object panna understands, panna is the leader. The equanimous attitude, to be more precise, there are many kinds and degrees of equanimity, upekkha. But I think you mean in conventional sense, not being distressed by one's clinging. S: One question here. What do you mean by silabbata paramasa? > I am sure here it does not mean attachment to rules and rituals. N: In the Buddha's time some people behaved like a dog and believed they could get a result from this practice. The word stands for wrong practice, practice that does not lead to the goal: detachment from the wrong view of self, and the eradication of all defilements. We have to verify whether a certain practice is based on the teachings and we have to find out whether it leads to detachment from the concept of self. That is, the idea of, I do it, I practice. Some people may select the objects of sati and panna, but this will not lead to the goal. Let us first see what the objects of sati and panna are. "Path of Discriminatyion", I, Treatise on Knoiwledge, Ch 1: All: "Bhikkhus, all is to be directly known. And what is that all that is to be directly known? ...{201 dhammas}: Materiality, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness is to be directly known...Craving for visible objects, sounds...odours...flavours...tangible objects..ideas is to be directly known." Lobha is the second noble Truth, it has to be known. When? Now, when it appears. It is so difficult to detect because it can be very subtle. When it is not subtle but more intense it may happen that we do not want it to be true. But it is reality and if there is no awareness, it cannot be realized as non-self. If one tries to suppress akusala, how can it be known as it is? The all should be known, no exception. Even the tendency to suppress akusala should be known: it is a conditioned nama. This is very important. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (IV, Salayatanavagga, Second Fifty, Ch 2, § 70: Then the vennerable Upavåna came to see the Exalted One:- " 'Of immediate use is the Norm (Dhamma)! Of immediate use is the Norm!' is the saying, lord. Pray, lord, to what extent is the Norm of immediate use, apart from time, bidding one come and see, leading on (to the Goal), to be experienced, each for himself, by the wise?" "Now here (under my teaching), Upavåna, when a brother sees an object with the eye, he experiences objects, conceives a passion for objects, and of that passion for objects which exists for him personally he is aware, 'I have personally a passion for objects.'..." The same is said with regard to the other doorways. The Buddha then explains that when there is no desire for objects, he is aware that there is no desire. If we realize akusala as only a conditioned nama it is most helpful, even now. We do not have aversion about it; aversion means, still more akusala. At the moment of awareness, the citta is kusala. This is the Middle Way: not avoiding to know akusala. If one avoids to know it, it is very dangerous, because it causes delusion. One believes that there are no tendencies to akusala, that one is so good. Even when sati and panna are still very much of a beginner, it is already beneficial to be aware of akusala. When we see it as a conditioned reality we can also understand others when they say disagreeable things or commit bad actions. The cittas which motivates speech and action arose because of accumulated tendencies, and they have fallen away already when we are thinking about someone's speech or action. It will be easier to forgive. Any time is time for practice. Are we distracted? That is a reality. In Bangkok we were reminded about wrong practice. When there is a moment of awareness, we should ask ourselves: do I want more? If we try to find ways and means to have more awareness, it is wrong practice, it prevents us to see the anattaness, also of sati and panna. Or we may take thinking of the stages of insight for insight, for direct understanding. Then we are led by lobha and we may go into the wrong direction. So many ways to go wrong, because we have accumulated ignorance and clinging for aeons. So long as we are not sotapannas there will all the time be the inclination to wrong practice. It should be detected as such. Next time about sankhaarupekkhaa. Nina. 19804 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:47am Subject: Comfort Dear Group, In the Scriptures, there is a mention of Admirable Friends and Association with the Wise, as being SO important that it is "the whole of the holy life". Why so? How can one can tell who is Wise? What is 'association with' - can reading posts on various Yahoo groups really be put in that category? Maybe our being born in these times, with access to computer technology, is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, there is easy access to viewing The Truthspeaker's words, but, on the other hand, the Sangha that many of us have access to is just squiggles on a screen. It is left up to the individual to assess the truth or otherwise of anything that comes in through the eye door - and how much of it is Wrong View? The Blessed One corrected Ananda when he said Admirable Friends were half the holy life and, instead, He emphasised that Admirable Friends were the whole of the holy life. One reason could be that contact with committed Dhamma friends is the best way to keep the Dhamma in the forefront of one's mind. Are there other benefits? In everyday life, a friend is someone before whom I can think aloud, that is, someone who cares for me, wishes the best for me, and with whom I can have a transparent relationship with no fear of judgment and no need to pretend to be better or worse than I am. I once asked a question about courage in the scriptures ... perhaps what I was also looking for was 'comfort in the scriptures'. If we are, for example, having a miserable experience in our work lives, who can we turn to? DSG has usually somewhere over 270 members, but most are unknown and don't communicate. Of those that do post, many [have so little trust that they] use false names and email tags which don't even reveal their gender. [Can you imagine any group meeting in real life covered in cloaks and masks, mostly silent, some using voice distortion devices, and saying "trust us, we're your admirable friends"?] I have occasionally had the experience of things not going right in life, and of wanting to obtain guidance and talk things over from a buddhist perspective. This doesn't happen because confidentiality and trust are two major parts of friendship, and my only option would be to become a public diversion by posting to a list with hundreds of unknown members. It seems it is 'bad form' and inconsiderate for a Buddhist to mention their own worries. 'Sometime', 'somewhere' you performed the kamma and current suffering is your 'just deserts'. Never completely figured out how this works with anatta. Never completely figured out how worldly suffering is 'all just a story, just thinking'. It's feels unbearably real. I can't see any 'protection' in buddhism either. Looking back, I'm sure that prayer used to often work, whatever the mechanism. I can't seem to find anything much in the teachings about 'comfort' or 'peace of mind' - except those references to the practically unattainable Nibanna, so far in the future for most that it isn't any comfort at all. Formal meditation seems to have some emotional benefits, at least as a 'wellness tool'. Apart from that, mostly I feel Buddhism currently seems to offer stoicism -'no control' and 'endurance'. metta, Christine 19805 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:21pm Subject: (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Dear Ray, Howard and Dharam, As I said before kamma is a main conditioning factor and hence a core aspect of understanding anatta, no-self. In an earlier post I quoted the Dhammapada atthakatha: http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm#threegroupsof In this a farmer tied a straw rope round the neck of the ox and set fire to it, and the ox died. ""On account of this evil deed the, farmer had suffered for a long time in niraya, and in serving out the remaining part of his punishment, he had been burnt to death in the last seven existences." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 127. Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in the cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where one may escape from the consequences of an evil deed. At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti Fruition. _____ Dharam you asked: ""Why should we be concerned with concepts such as 'punishment' for the old farmer for past misdeeds?"" Often in the suttas the Buddha teaches the Dhamma in conventional terms (vohara vacana) and so refers to human beings and animals etc. Certainly, as you realise, these have no reality and are merely concepts used for convenience. In the case of such terms as punishment (unpleasant result) we know that in the true sense there is no one who receives results but that results arise by conditions: From the Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention for mere arising of fruit (vipaka);" And Vis. XIX20 "There is no doer of a deed Or one who reaps the deeds result: Phenomena alone flow on- No other view than this is right." This is basic Dhamma and I am glad you bought it up as otherwise we might turn away from the stories in the Dhammapada of Jataka commentaries not realising their profundity. Indeed you write: "How is the the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent with the expectation that we should test any teaching against reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and references to devas etc.]" In part I think this is answered above but to clarify further. We may think of devas and such as mythical but the greatest myth is the idea that `we' exist now. Thus when I read the Dhammapada or the Jataka I look at it in this way, which is also the way that life is here and now. The Abhidhamma- which should inform our understanding whenever we consider- shows us that what we thought were trees and people and animals and devas even ourself are only conditioned, evanescent aggregates (khandas). I think knowing this we read the story in a different way: That it is that the story is an illustration of the workings of conditionality, especially that condition called kamma. You further ask: "How is concern about kamma consistent with concentrating on what is just occuring in the moment?" Well when there is concentrating on the present this can be with right view or wrong view. Someone may know breath or subtle sensations in the body or heat or seeing but with no insight. So one who has some background in Dhamma knows – at least theoretically - that "The mental and material are really here, but here there is no human being to be found,for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll just suffering piled up like grass and sticks"(visuddimagga xvii31). And further than this one must know that nama(mentality) and rupa (matter) are conditioned to arise by conditions such as kamma. Now we cannot know what kamma done in what life produced this momnt of seeing consciousness. It could have been kamma done 100,000 millions of aeons ago that was the dominant condition. But I believe developed insight can see how conditions work. "The succession of kamma and its result is only [fully]clear in its true nature to the Buddha's . But the succession of kamma and its result can be known in part by one practising insight" Vis. Xix17 Back to the present moment: Didn't we, before we heard Dhamma, think that `our' body and mind, which we all know are here now, were something good? But in fact they are killers: "therefore the wise should see the aggregates (the five khandas, nama and rupa) as murderers." Visuddhimagga XiV230 When we talk about such matter(ruap) as the eyebase, earbase etc which are produced by kamma (done in past lives) it is again the same as discussing anatta. "All formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. For the do not come from anywhere prior to their arrival nor do they go anywhere after their fall. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence and after their fall their individual essence is completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery been exercisable over them since they exist dependent on conditions and in between the past and future". No control and powerlessness is the sign of anatta. And again this relates to right insight into the present moment. Someone with wrong understanding will try to control or change the present moment rather than insighting it as it is now, rather than understanding the conditionality of each moment. Back to the story about the farmer: "At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti Fruition." We might wonder how such an apparently simple story could lead directly to enlightenment. It is because this discourse teaches conditionality and anatta – and for those with accumulations must lead to insight into the conditioned nature of this moment. Dharam: "I guess I am looking more for logical explanations, instead of quotation from suttas, to buttress a viewpoint. Thanks." I hope this is along the lines of what you are looking for. Happy to clarify if you wish. RobertK 19806 From: m. nease Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Rob, Really outstanding post. Can you cite from the texts on "No control and powerlessness is the sign of anatta"? I think this could be very useful but have no direct textual collaboration (sorry if I've missed, forgotten or overlooked this in previous posts). In Pali, I've found for 'powerless': abala; dubbala; asamattha; sattihiina (haven't had time to search for these in the texts yet). Do we have any Pali for 'no control'? Thank you, sir, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:21 PM Subject: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Dear Ray, Howard and Dharam, As I said before kamma is a main conditioning factor and hence a core aspect of understanding anatta, no-self. In an earlier post I quoted the Dhammapada atthakatha: http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm#threegroupsof In this a farmer tied a straw rope round the neck of the ox and set fire to it, and the ox died. ""On account of this evil deed the, farmer had suffered for a long time in niraya, and in serving out the remaining part of his punishment, he had been burnt to death in the last seven existences." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 127. Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in the cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where one may escape from the consequences of an evil deed. At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti Fruition. _____ Dharam you asked: ""Why should we be concerned with concepts such as 'punishment' for the old farmer for past misdeeds?"" Often in the suttas the Buddha teaches the Dhamma in conventional terms (vohara vacana) and so refers to human beings and animals etc. Certainly, as you realise, these have no reality and are merely concepts used for convenience. In the case of such terms as punishment (unpleasant result) we know that in the true sense there is no one who receives results but that results arise by conditions: From the Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention for mere arising of fruit (vipaka);" And Vis. XIX20 "There is no doer of a deed Or one who reaps the deeds result: Phenomena alone flow on- No other view than this is right." This is basic Dhamma and I am glad you bought it up as otherwise we might turn away from the stories in the Dhammapada of Jataka commentaries not realising their profundity. Indeed you write: "How is the the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent with the expectation that we should test any teaching against reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and references to devas etc.]" In part I think this is answered above but to clarify further. We may think of devas and such as mythical but the greatest myth is the idea that `we' exist now. Thus when I read the Dhammapada or the Jataka I look at it in this way, which is also the way that life is here and now. The Abhidhamma- which should inform our understanding whenever we consider- shows us that what we thought were trees and people and animals and devas even ourself are only conditioned, evanescent aggregates (khandas). I think knowing this we read the story in a different way: That it is that the story is an illustration of the workings of conditionality, especially that condition called kamma. You further ask: "How is concern about kamma consistent with concentrating on what is just occuring in the moment?" Well when there is concentrating on the present this can be with right view or wrong view. Someone may know breath or subtle sensations in the body or heat or seeing but with no insight. So one who has some background in Dhamma knows - at least theoretically - that "The mental and material are really here, but here there is no human being to be found,for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll just suffering piled up like grass and sticks"(visuddimagga xvii31). And further than this one must know that nama(mentality) and rupa (matter) are conditioned to arise by conditions such as kamma. Now we cannot know what kamma done in what life produced this momnt of seeing consciousness. It could have been kamma done 100,000 millions of aeons ago that was the dominant condition. But I believe developed insight can see how conditions work. "The succession of kamma and its result is only [fully]clear in its true nature to the Buddha's . But the succession of kamma and its result can be known in part by one practising insight" Vis. Xix17 Back to the present moment: Didn't we, before we heard Dhamma, think that `our' body and mind, which we all know are here now, were something good? But in fact they are killers: "therefore the wise should see the aggregates (the five khandas, nama and rupa) as murderers." Visuddhimagga XiV230 When we talk about such matter(ruap) as the eyebase, earbase etc which are produced by kamma (done in past lives) it is again the same as discussing anatta. "All formed bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. For the do not come from anywhere prior to their arrival nor do they go anywhere after their fall. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence and after their fall their individual essence is completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery been exercisable over them since they exist dependent on conditions and in between the past and future". No control and powerlessness is the sign of anatta. And again this relates to right insight into the present moment. Someone with wrong understanding will try to control or change the present moment rather than insighting it as it is now, rather than understanding the conditionality of each moment. Back to the story about the farmer: "At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti Fruition." We might wonder how such an apparently simple story could lead directly to enlightenment. It is because this discourse teaches conditionality and anatta - and for those with accumulations must lead to insight into the conditioned nature of this moment. Dharam: "I guess I am looking more for logical explanations, instead of quotation from suttas, to buttress a viewpoint. Thanks." I hope this is along the lines of what you are looking for. Happy to clarify if you wish. RobertK 19807 From: Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 0:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comfort Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/21/03 1:50:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > In the Scriptures, there is a mention of Admirable Friends and > Association with the Wise, as being SO important that it is "the > whole of the holy life". Why so? How can one can tell who is Wise? > What is 'association with' - can reading posts on various Yahoo > groups really be put in that category? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: With respect to your last question, I'd answer "Most likely, or at least for the most part, no." As far as *who* is "wise", I'd say its anyone who is 1) a good person, and 2) "further along" than we are. I personally think the most likely place to find such kalyanamitta, though certainly not exclusively, is at a monastery with monks who have a fine reputation for gentleness, serious practice, and good teaching skills. --------------------------------------------------- > Maybe our being born in these times, with access to computer > technology, is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, there is easy > access to viewing The Truthspeaker's words, but, on the other hand, > the Sangha that many of us have access to is just squiggles on a > screen. It is left up to the individual to assess the truth or > otherwise of anything that comes in through the eye door - and how > much of it is Wrong View? > > The Blessed One corrected Ananda when he said Admirable Friends were > half the holy life and, instead, He emphasised that Admirable > Friends were the whole of the holy life. One reason could be that > contact with committed Dhamma friends is the best way to keep the > Dhamma in the forefront of one's mind. Are there other benefits? In > everyday life, a friend is someone before whom I can think aloud, > that is, someone who cares for me, wishes the best for me, and with > whom I can have a transparent relationship with no fear of judgment > and no need to pretend to be better or worse than I am. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. This is why the person needs to be a good person, a gentle and loving person, and one who has wisdom. ------------------------------------------------------ > > I once asked a question about courage in the scriptures ... perhaps > what I was also looking for was 'comfort in the scriptures'. If we > are, for example, having a miserable experience in our work lives, > who can we turn to? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Any loving, intelligent, loyal, and wise friend, and not necessarily a Buddhist. ------------------------------------------------- DSG has usually somewhere over 270 members, but > > most are unknown and don't communicate. Of those that do post, many > [have so little trust that they] use false names and email tags which > don't even reveal their gender. [Can you imagine any group meeting > in real life covered in cloaks and masks, mostly silent, some using > voice distortion devices, and saying "trust us, we're your admirable > friends"?] > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Christine, this is just a discussion group - a wonderful one, but basically only that. If you get to know a few of the folks sufficiently to trust and like them, and to have them as "distant friends", that's a terrific "extra". There are several people on this and other lists whom I have come to value considerably, in differing ways, as I'm sure you have. But direct, personal contact is what is needed for urgent matters, I think. ------------------------------------------------ > > I have occasionally had the experience of things not going right in > life, and of wanting to obtain guidance and talk things over from a > buddhist perspective. This doesn't happen because confidentiality > and trust are two major parts of friendship, and my only option would > be to become a public diversion by posting to a list with hundreds > of unknown members. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: So don't write on those matters to the list as a whole. Write to one or two or three list members, separately or as a group, people in whom you have the needed trust. ------------------------------------------------- > It seems it is 'bad form' and inconsiderate for a Buddhist to mention > their own worries. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: What part of the canon do you find *that* in? ;-) -------------------------------------------------- 'Sometime', 'somewhere' you performed the kamma > > and current suffering is your 'just deserts'. Never > completely figured out how this works with anatta. Never completely > figured out how worldly suffering is > 'all just a story, just thinking'. It's feels unbearably real. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Suffering is suffering! And compassion is what is called for in response, whatever one's "technical" theories might be! I've been reading about a lovely, 17-year-old Mexican girl who came to the U.S. (to Duke University Hospital) to receive a heart and lung transplant, for without it she had only six months to live. Some moron mismatched the organs, and her body immediately started to reject the transplanted organs. Miraculously, a day or so later they obtained and transplanted correct organs, but she is now in grave condition, and may not make it. This is heart breaking! Was her original faulty bodily condition the consequence of intentional action of the young lady in this or a previous lifetime? I don't know, but I would assume probably so. But so what? We all have aeons of bad deeds in our history! All the easier to empathize! Her circumstances are heartbreaking whatever the kammic facts may be. And which of us, if we could do so, wouldn't try to take way the suffering of this child and of her parents!! ---------------------------------------------------- I > > can't see any 'protection' in buddhism either. Looking back, I'm > sure that prayer used to often work, whatever the mechanism. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I've found great comfort in Buddhism. But that was for *myself*, when it was erroneously thought that I had colon cancer. For that, deciding not to desire, not to hope, not even for continued life, worked beautifully and completely for me. But if someone else, someone dear to me had been involved instead of me, this skillful means would likely not have been sufficient. But I sincerely believe that for others who have practiced longer and better than I, it *would* work. I think that the practice of the Buddha's Dhamma is a sure means (I actually believe it to be *the* means) to bring us to the point that suffering is removed from our life. --------------------------------------------------- > > I can't seem to find anything much in the teachings about 'comfort' > or 'peace of > mind' - except those references to the practically unattainable > Nibanna, so > far in the future for most that it isn't any comfort at all. Formal > meditation seems to have some emotional benefits, at least as > a 'wellness tool'. Apart from that, mostly I feel Buddhism > currently seems to offer stoicism -'no control' and 'endurance'. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that such suppression, such closing off of feeling, is Buddhism at all! There is no joy or peace to be found in a dried out, hollowed out husk of a person. Comfort comes from the Dhamma in many ways. I mentioned one way above, with regard to consciously avoiding wanting things to be a particular way. Comfort comes from seeing that nothing has substance, nothing lasts, and that nothing is worthwhile clinging to (whereas all sentient beings are worthy of loving!). Comfort comes from the calm that grows out of deep concentration. It comes from the joy of metta and the other divine abidings. There is *so* much comfort to be found. ---------------------------------------------------- > > > metta, > Christine > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19808 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Rob, > > Really outstanding post. Can you cite from the texts on "No control and > powerlessness is the sign of anatta"? ___ Dear Mike, Thanks. There are quite a few areas where this is inferred or made explicit: "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the exercise of power,. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of opposing self" (see vis. note 3 xxi) "Those same five aggregates are anatta because of the words 'what is painful is no self' Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibilty to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of anatta" sammohavinodani 60. Here is another about how anatta is understood: "the characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (nanadhatuvinbbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness.... But when resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of anatta appears in accordance with its true essential nature" Sammohavinodani59-60) Another quote worth remembering is one by you that Ken highlighted: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17299 ""I thought Mike's comment was very deep: "'I' don't mind giving up the idea of self, just so long as 'I'm' allowed to choose to do so (and receive the credit)...!" RobertK I think this could be very useful but > have no direct textual collaboration (sorry if I've missed, forgotten or > overlooked this in previous posts). > > In Pali, I've found for 'powerless': abala; dubbala; asamattha; sattihiina > (haven't had time to search for these in the texts yet). Do we have any > Pali for 'no control'? > > Thank you, sir, > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:21 PM > Subject: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment > > > Dear Ray, Howard and Dharam, > As I said before kamma is a main conditioning factor and hence a core > aspect of understanding anatta, no-self. > In an earlier post I quoted the Dhammapada atthakatha: > > http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm#threegroupsof > In this a farmer tied a straw rope round > the neck of the ox and set fire to it, and the ox died. ""On account > of > this evil deed the, farmer had suffered for a long time in niraya, > and in serving out the remaining part of his punishment, he had been > burnt to death in the last seven existences." > Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: > Verse 127. Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in the > cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where one > may escape from the consequences of an evil deed. > > At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti > Fruition. > _____ > Dharam you asked: ""Why should we be concerned with concepts such > as 'punishment' for the old farmer for past misdeeds?"" > > Often in the suttas the Buddha teaches the Dhamma in conventional > terms (vohara vacana) and so refers to human beings and animals etc. > Certainly, as you realise, these have no reality and are merely > concepts used for convenience. In the case of such terms as > punishment (unpleasant result) we know that in the true sense there > is no one > who receives results but that results arise by > conditions: From the > Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention for mere > arising of fruit (vipaka);" > And Vis. XIX20 "There is no doer of a deed Or one who reaps the deeds > result: Phenomena alone flow on- No other view than this is right." > This is basic Dhamma and I am glad you bought it up as otherwise we > might turn away from the stories in the Dhammapada of Jataka > commentaries not realising their profundity. > > Indeed you write: > "How is the the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent > with the expectation that we should test any teaching against > reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and > references to devas etc.]" > > In part I think this is answered above but to clarify further. We may > think of devas and such as mythical but the greatest myth is the idea > that `we' exist now. Thus when I > read the Dhammapada or the Jataka I look at it in this > way, which is also the way that life is here and now. > The Abhidhamma- which should inform our understanding whenever we > consider- shows us that > what we thought were trees and people and animals and devas > even ourself are only conditioned, > evanescent aggregates (khandas). I think knowing this we read the > story in a > different way: That it is that the story > is an illustration of the workings of conditionality, > especially that condition called kamma. > You further ask: > "How is concern about kamma consistent with concentrating on what is > just occuring in the moment?" > > Well when there is concentrating on the present this can be with > right view or wrong view. Someone may know breath or subtle > sensations in the body or heat or seeing but with no insight. > > So one who has some background in Dhamma knows - at least > theoretically - that "The mental and material are really here, but > here there is no human being to be found,for it is void and merely > fashioned like a doll just suffering piled up like grass and > sticks"(visuddimagga xvii31). > > And further than this one must know that nama(mentality) and rupa > (matter) are conditioned to arise by conditions such as kamma. > > Now we cannot know what kamma done in what life produced this momnt > of seeing consciousness. It could have been kamma done 100,000 > millions of aeons ago that was the dominant condition. But I believe > developed insight can see how conditions work. "The succession of > kamma and its result is only [fully]clear in its true nature to the > Buddha's . But the succession of kamma and its result can be known in > part by one practising insight" Vis. Xix17 > > > Back to the present moment: Didn't we, before we heard Dhamma, think > that `our' body and mind, which we all know are here now, were > something good? But in fact they are killers: "therefore the wise > should see the aggregates (the five khandas, nama and rupa) as > murderers." Visuddhimagga XiV230 > When we talk about such matter(ruap) as the eyebase, earbase etc > which are produced by kamma (done in past lives) it is again the same > as discussing anatta. "All formed bases should be regarded as having > no provenance and no destination. For the do not come from anywhere > prior to their arrival nor do they go anywhere after their fall. On > the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence and > after their fall their individual essence is completely dissolved. > And they occur without mastery been exercisable over them since they > exist dependent on conditions and in between the past and future". > > No control and powerlessness is the sign of anatta. And again this > relates to right insight into the present moment. Someone with wrong > understanding will try to control or change the present moment rather > than insighting it as it is now, rather than understanding the > conditionality of each moment. > > Back to the story about the farmer: "At the end of the discourse all > the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti Fruition." > We might wonder how such an apparently simple story could lead > directly to enlightenment. It is because this discourse teaches > conditionality and anatta - and for those with accumulations must > lead to insight into the conditioned nature of this moment. > > Dharam: "I guess I am looking more for logical explanations, instead > of > quotation from suttas, to buttress a viewpoint. Thanks." > > I hope this is along the lines of what you are looking for. Happy to > clarify if you wish. > RobertK > > 19809 From: Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment "On account of this evil deed the farmer had suffered for a long time in niraya" Hi all, Isn't suffering a cause, not a result? Unpleasant body feeling is a result but suffering is an unpleasant mental feeling with dosa and moha and these are javana and arise due to conditioning factors other than kamma. Larry 19810 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --Dear Mike, I overlooked the last part of your post: -In Pali, I've found for 'powerless': abala; dubbala; asamattha; > sattihiina > > (haven't had time to search for these in the texts yet). Do we > have any > > Pali for 'no control'? " ________ I wrote this a while back based on the Dhammapada: The Buddha said (my translation): 279: "Sabbe dhamma anattati, yada paññaya passati; atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya"ti. All dhammas are not-self: when one sees this with insight then one is detached (or disenchanted, nibbindati)from dukkha, This is the Path (magga)to Purity (visuddhi). The commentary says: Tattha sabbe dhammati pañcakkhandha eva adhippeta. Here(tattha)by all (sabbe)phenomena (dhammati), five aggregates (pancakkhandha) is meant (adhippeta). Anattati "ma jiyantu ma miyantu"ti vase vattetum na sakkati avasavattanatthena anatta attasuñña assamika anissarati attho. Are not-self (anattati) because Birth(jiyantu), decay and death (miyantu) are not able to have power exercised over them (vase vattetum na). In the sense of powerlessness( avasavattanatthena ) anatta, void of self (attasuñña ). RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > > > Really outstanding post. Can you cite from the texts on "No > control and > > powerlessness is the sign of anatta"? > ___ > Dear Mike, > Thanks. There are quite a few areas where this is inferred or made > explicit: "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the > exercise of > power,. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of > voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of > opposing self" (see vis. note 3 xxi) > "Those same five aggregates are anatta because of the words 'what is > painful is no self' Why? Because there is no exercising power over > them. The mode of insusceptibilty to having power exercised over them > is the characteristic of anatta" sammohavinodani 60. > > Here is another about how anatta is understood: > "the characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping > in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements > (nanadhatuvinbbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness.... > But when resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by > resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of anatta > appears in accordance with its true essential nature" > Sammohavinodani59-60) > > Another quote worth remembering is one by you that Ken highlighted: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17299 > ""I > thought Mike's comment was very deep: "'I' don't mind giving up the > idea of self, just so long as 'I'm' allowed to choose to > do so (and receive the credit)...!" > RobertK > > I think this could be very useful but > > have no direct textual collaboration (sorry if I've missed, > forgotten or > > overlooked this in previous posts). > > > > > > > > Thank you, sir, > > > > mike > > > > Weight Age Gender Female Male 19811 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:31pm Subject: Re: Attention Suan: Thanks, Robert Dear Robert Thank you for your kind alert. It is due to the suspension of my website and web e-mail by the hosting service provider. I myself knew the situation only last night when I opened the website as my e-mails, including the one from you, did not arrive. I thought that the hosting service provider would send me a Renewal Reminder in advance. But, they didn't. They just suspended the hosting services including e-mail service. I have notified them of my intention to renew their hosting service. I am waiting for their reply. For the time being, please kindly use my dial-up e-mail service: suanluzaw@a... With kind regards, Suan ------------------------------------- Hi Suan, I tried replying to your message and attaching the paper (only 250K after zipping) but my message kept getting kicked back. The error message is quite cryptic, but I think that I am being treated as "SPAM" by your email system. Please email me another email address for me to use. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Our company just installed a SPAM filter, but I don't think that it would block outgoing messages. I even tried setting up a new Yahoo! Mail address and send it out from there; same problem. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: 19812 From: Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 7:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Hi All The following quote's from the Visuddhimagga, Chapter 18, # 31... "Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless, and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless, and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the ancients said: The mental and material are really here, But here there is no human being to be found, For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll, Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks." So according to the Visuddhimagga we cannot even be curious or interested in things...in the highest sense. Apparently there are just conditions pushing other conditions along. If it is regarded that "I" am doing it, it is self-view and delusion guiding that thinking. Virtually all the time for us unenlightened one's, it is self-view and delusion guiding thought and therefore an overwhelming sense of self control arises and persists. TG 19813 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Book to everyone>> Hi, Kiana, You have come to the right place to learn about the closest model about truth, instead of being mired in ignorance, which is should I say inherent in all of us. Human nature (pathetic - pettiness, jealousy and selfishness in a race to be even the last to be laid off in a workplace, the list goes on and on) is dangerous but once you learn more about how it comes about from Buddhism's perspective, you will automatically and naturally love to learn more about Buddhism. But no hatred though, that is so great about Buddhism. It is also called unnatural or should I say 'Un - human nature'. I agree with you as I see this human nature is here to stay, it has been like that before, is now and will be so in the future. Those who are lucky enough to get to know the truth will escape from this repetitious, vicious cycle we are in - called in Pali - Samsara, driven by aggregate of all our own action or Kamma. If you are new to these Pali terms, do not worry you will learn at your own pace. No hurry, Buddhism is very gentle and warm. By the way, personally I do not agree or like any religion, which is or can be like groupie, ganging together, I consider Buddhism not a religion though, but a truth seeking. I mean the real truth. Because you have to go against your natural (animalistic ?) tendency. The early you slowly realize the better and you will find true Inner tranquility - even if just occassional very rewarding. Stick around with us who are also looking for that truth. I myself would like to verify if it is really true or not. Thanks, Metta, Eddie --- Star Kid wrote: > Dear everyone, > > I am Kiana. During these holidays I read a book > about > Buddha. It is "Ten Lifes of the Buddha". I really > want > to introduce these book to all of you. Because it is > very meaningful, and it is written two thousand > years > ago! > > There can be many things changed in between two > thousand years, but one thing won't change for a > really long time is - human nature and the good & > bad > qualities of humans. > > In that book, there are many stories, the one that I > like the most is "Mahajanaka the Lost Prince". It is > about the king who died and the elder prince will be > the king but he was jealous of his brother's > popularity and tried to kill him. > > This is human nature. Even nowadays, there are many > people jobless and they are fighting for one job, > trying to kick the other out and job on his own. > > I think nothing will be more horrible than human > nature. > > There are more stories and pictures in this book. I > think you will enjoy it when you are reading this > book. > > Love, > Kiana 19814 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Correct me if I am wrong. I think NEO Swee Boon means to say "But if a person > is at the WTC on 911 and there is no supporting > vipaka for his > untimely death, he would still survive." that person will just happen not be at the disaster location at that bad time. There will something (say delay, time conflict or for any kind of reason - look so supernatural or superstitious - but actually not so but simple cause and effect at work. Some use "Condition" and I must admit I am not so knowledgeable yet. Eddie --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Howard, > > > How did the prior bad deeds put them where they > were on 9-11 so > that > > they would fall victim to the attack? Did the > kamma seeds know > about > > the upcoming attack!? > > The kamma seeds obviously did not put them where > they were on 911. > If it did, then it would contradict Sivaka sutta > (whatever happens > is all caused by what was done in the past). > > They were there because of cetana (read new kamma). > They were not > there because of vipaka (results of kamma). > > The victims' presence at the WTC on 911 was not > caused by what was > done in the past. > > A person's absence at the WTC on 911 was also not > caused by what was > done in the past. > > Is the Buddha's presence at the foot of the mountain > where Devadatta > threw down the huge boulder intending to kill the > Buddha caused by > what was done in the past? Certainly not. It is > caused by cetana > (read new kamma) by way of conascent > kamma-condition. > > A Buddha cannot be killed by the assault of another > person. Why? > Because there is no supporting vipaka for such a > thing to happen. > > Vipaka cannot cause someone to be at the WTC on 911. > But if a person > is at the WTC on 911 and there is no supporting > vipaka for his > untimely death, he would still survive. You might > think this to be > very unlikely, but the results of kamma is > imponderable. > > That is why it is said: > > 'Of kamma I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; > kamma is > the matrix; kamma is my kinsman; KAMMA IS MY REFUGE. > Whatever kamma > I perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be > heir.' > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19815 From: connie Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:30am Subject: Re: Comfort Hi, Christine ~ Ok if I think out loud with you? Thanissaro's article at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/authenticity.html talks about: "Those factors, listed in SN LV.5, are: association with people of integrity, listening to the true Dhamma, appropriate attention, and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. " It's a good article and speaks to some of the points you brought up. Where I come from, if you were 'in bad form', they'd smile and say (roughly translated), "Oh, the obstacles and devils are coming for you! Congratulations! What a great opportunity!" (and tell you to chant more). The obstacles/devils are any hindrance to your practice... you get a flat tire on your way to the meditation center, you're discouraged because your life's not going the way you like, whatever the 'story, just thinking' is. Not so much that what happens is 'your just desserts' as it is a chance to take another look at the buffet and pick another dessert. You have to eat some of everything on your plate? I say we practice for death... whether it is the death of the next instant or the one at the end of our life, because how we die determines so much of the next life/story. That's what I get from the patisandhi-, bhavanga- and cuti-cittas all taking the same maranasanna-nimitta from the last episode. That it is the anatta-ness and impermanence that provide the hope because if the conditions are right, Anything can happen. Some days, dropping dead has been the best Anything I could hope for and sooner or later I remember that this life is the most precious one imaginable. It's dukkha? Even when the so-called 8-winds are blowing my way and I could live happily ever after? Whoa! I want out. Oh, I forgot... I'm already out. How's that possible? I'm already Deathless and just too stubborn to admit it? For one thing, I live in the past. By the time I've made up my mind about what's going on, it's over. "The mind is the fore runner" and I lag behind. I think I'm doing something about what comes next, but it's a joke. That no control thing. How do I get close enough to the present to See that there is really just cause and condition, vipaka-namakkhandha and katatta-rupa or whatever it is? Because I think the answer to me lies in kamma. I just don't quite know how to go about setting up conditions, trying to organize the future. Visible object appeared to be seen. Mind started to run with it. Kamma jumped in. Depending on how far gone in javana the thought was determines when the vipaka will come in... this life, next one or some othertime before The End. The other option is that nothing comes of it... ahosi, washed out kamma, no vipaka. Anything there? Dead-end. Oh. Where to be reborn? Suddhavasa plane? I hear you get in the saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi or panna line to get there. Sorry. I meant to go to bed last night and got all stuck in a book. But that's how I think to myself. Small wonder I'm still here. peace, connie 19816 From: m. nease Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 9:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Excellent, Robert--just what I was looking for. Thanks-- mike p.s. I'm not familiar with Sammohavinodani--part of the Abhidhammapitaka? Thanks again... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --Dear Mike, I overlooked the last part of your post: -In Pali, I've found for 'powerless': abala; dubbala; asamattha; > sattihiina > > (haven't had time to search for these in the texts yet). Do we > have any > > Pali for 'no control'? " ________ I wrote this a while back based on the Dhammapada: The Buddha said (my translation): 279: "Sabbe dhamma anattati, yada paññaya passati; atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya"ti. All dhammas are not-self: when one sees this with insight then one is detached (or disenchanted, nibbindati)from dukkha, This is the Path (magga)to Purity (visuddhi). The commentary says: Tattha sabbe dhammati pañcakkhandha eva adhippeta. Here(tattha)by all (sabbe)phenomena (dhammati), five aggregates (pancakkhandha) is meant (adhippeta). Anattati "ma jiyantu ma miyantu"ti vase vattetum na sakkati avasavattanatthena anatta attasuñña assamika anissarati attho. Are not-self (anattati) because Birth(jiyantu), decay and death (miyantu) are not able to have power exercised over them (vase vattetum na). In the sense of powerlessness( avasavattanatthena ) anatta, void of self (attasuñña ). RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > > > Really outstanding post. Can you cite from the texts on "No > control and > > powerlessness is the sign of anatta"? > ___ > Dear Mike, > Thanks. There are quite a few areas where this is inferred or made > explicit: "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the > exercise of > power,. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of > voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of > opposing self" (see vis. note 3 xxi) > "Those same five aggregates are anatta because of the words 'what is > painful is no self' Why? Because there is no exercising power over > them. The mode of insusceptibilty to having power exercised over them > is the characteristic of anatta" sammohavinodani 60. > > Here is another about how anatta is understood: > "the characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping > in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements > (nanadhatuvinbbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness.... > But when resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by > resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of anatta > appears in accordance with its true essential nature" > Sammohavinodani59-60) 19817 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 10:16am Subject: RE: [dsg] Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka tale) Hi Janice, > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > > How big was the real Buddha? I don't know how big the Buddha was. I haven't come across the description of how tall the Buddha was (maybe others can help). There were many descriptions about the Buddha, but I don't remember seeing how tall. > What color was the real Buddha? His skin color is said to be golden, probably not the metallic golden that you see in temples, but it is said to be brightly golden. > Does the Buddha really have its own language? The Buddha is said to speak the language known as Maghadha, which was a live, spoken language 2,500 years ago. Now, this language is no longer spoken generally, but it is used primarily to transmit the teachings of the Buddha. It is known as Pali (instead of Maghadha). Besides learning about the physical characteristics of the Buddha, and the language he spoke, we also learn that the Buddha's teachings are very deep. The Buddha taught us all kinds of stuffs, including why people are happy and miserable. He also taught what is good (causes that would be good results) and what is bad (causes that would bring bad results). For example, this tale (from : Matakabhatta Jataka (Jataka No. 18) The Goat That Laughed and Wept One day, while the Buddha was staying in Jetavana, some bhikkhus asked him if there was any benefit in sacrificing goats, sheep, and other animals as offerings for departed relatives. "No, bhikkhus," replied the Buddha. "No good ever comes from taking life, not even when it is for the purpose of providing a Feast for the Dead." Then he told this story of the past. Long, long ago, when Brahmadatta was reigning in Baranasi, a brahman decided to offer a Feast for the Dead and bought a goat to sacrifice. "My boys," he said to his students, "take this goat down to the river, bathe it, brush it, hang a garland around its neck, give it some grain to eat, and bring it back." "Yes, sir," they replied and led the goat to the river. While they were grooming it, the goat started to laugh with a sound like a pot smashing. Then, just as strangely, it started to weep loudly. The young students were amazed at this behavior. "Why did you suddenly laugh," they asked the goat, "and why do you now cry so loudly?" "Repeat your question when we get back to your teacher," the goat answered. The students hurriedly took the goat back to their master and told him what had happened at the river. Hearing the story, the master himself asked the goat why it had laughed and why it had wept. "In times past, brahman," the goat began, "I was a brahman who taught the Vedas like you. I, too, sacrificed a goat as an offering for a Feast for the Dead. Because of killing that single goat, I have had my head cut off 499 times. I laughed aloud when I realized that this is my last birth as an animal to be sacrificed. Today I will be freed from my misery. On the other hand, I cried when I realized that, because of killing me, you, too, may be doomed to lose your head five hundred times. It was out of pity for you that I cried." "Well, goat," said the brahman, "in that case, I am not going to kill you." "Brahman!" exclaimed the goat. "Whether or not you kill me, I cannot escape death today." "Don't worry," the brahman assured the goat. "I will guard you." "You don't understand," the goat told him. "Your protection is weak. The force of my evil deed is very strong." The brahman untied the goat and said to his students, "Don't allow anyone to harm this goat." They obediently followed the animal to protect it. After the goat was freed, it began to graze. It stretched out its neck to reach the leaves on a bush growing near the top of a large rock. At that very instant a lightning bolt hit the rock, breaking off a sharp piece of stone which flew through the air and neatly cut off the goat's head. A crowd of people gathered around the dead goat and began to talk excitedly about the amazing accident. A tree deva[5] had observed everything from the goat's purchase to its dramatic death, and drawing a lesson from the incident, admonished the crowd: "If people only knew that the penalty would be rebirth into sorrow, they would cease from taking life. A horrible doom awaits one who slays." With this explanation of the law of kamma the deva instilled in his listeners the fear of hell. The people were so frightened that they completely gave up the practice of animal sacrifices. The deva further instructed the people in the Precepts and urged them to do good. Eventually, that deva passed away to fare according to his deserts. For several generations after that, people remained faithful to the Precepts and spent their lives in charity and meritorious works, so that many were reborn in the heavens. The Buddha ended his lesson and identified the Birth by saying, "In those days I was that deva." The Buddha also taught other profound teachings. He taught that when there is seeing, what is seen is an element - just something that appears to the eyes, and what sees is also another element - just seeing which sees what is seen. But we misunderstood what those elements are. We misunderstand that what is seen as something else, like I see a person, a horse, a toy, etc. We also misunderstand what sees: we take it that it is I who sees - we don't understand that seeing is also just another element. Without hearing the Buddha's teachings, we cannot understand this, but if we hear, and truly understand what he says, then reaching the end of suffering becomes possible for us. I hope you haven't fallen asleep by the time you get here :-). Hope you write again. kom 19818 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 10:00am Subject: Re: Hello --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James, > > I'm Hilary and I'm 11.I've read the letters you've > written. You seem like some type of Buddhism and a > great poet. Can you please answer a couple of > questions on my mind about Buddhism? O.K, first of all > what do buddhists do when they go to temples? I know > they pray but do they do anything like dance,readings, > songs, or things like that? My next question will > probably occur to next year's Chinese New Year.Do > buddhist do anything special during Chinese New Year. > I would love to hear some more things about Buddhism > in the letters you write. > > From, > Hilary > > > P.S - please send me some poems too. Hi Star Kid Hilary! Yes, I would agree with you that I am `some type of Buddhist'. What type that is I don't think I am sure most of the time! ;-) I am also glad that you like my poetry. Since you ask about Buddhist temples, I will attach a poem at the end of this letter that I wrote about my temple. Sorry…it isn't funny though. But I will also include a funny one for you...:-) Well, it already sounds like you know a lot of the things that occur inside a Buddhist temple. But just to clear up two things: There is no dancing and no singing. Monks are not allowed to dance and sing nor are they allowed to watch dancing and singing. This is probably one of the things that non-Buddhists don't understand the most about Buddhist monks because of the close ties in other religions with dancing and singing. Most of the time, dancing and singing are used as a means for people to have fun and forget their problems. Monks are not supposed to have fun at the expense of forgetting what is going on in their lives and minds. Monks do chant, which could be considered a type of singing, but it is not really. Chanting isn't done for fun but as a reminder of the Buddha's teachings. Monks are looking for a type of happiness that is deeper than that which comes from dancing and singing. Don't feel sad for monks that they can't dance and sing; you should feel sorry for the rest of us who must have such things in order to be happy. People mainly go to Buddhist temples to talk to the monks, ask questions, learn Buddhism, meditate, and talk with other Buddhists. Probably the most unusual things that people do at my temple are fortune-telling and astrology. I don't know all the details of this, because I don't do it, but there is a cup with wooden sticks that people shake and some of the sticks fall out. By reading those sticks, they will know their fortune from little slips of paper that the sticks tell them to pull out of an altar. I think it is called the "I Ching", but I am not sure. People can also see some of the monks who are trained in Buddhist astrology to have a reading of their astrology chart done for them. I am not sure if this is done too much now because the monk who was really good at it went to a different temple. Buddhists don't do one particular thing for the New Year because it isn't a Buddhist holiday. I will soon be celebrating the Thai New Year at my temple which is also called the Water Celebration. We will splash water on each other to bring in the New Year. So you see, there are many different ways to bring in the New Year…and many New Years. I celebrate New Years all year long! ;-) Half the time, I'm not sure what year it is! ;-) Metta, James Reflections of Wat Promkunaram by James Mitchell Buddha statues surround friends welcoming me fortress of red carpet and sweet incense smoke quiet solitude and golden glow countenance forever in meditation reflections of the Buddha within. Monks surround thin figures in saffron robes yellow-orange swirling in edges of sight soft voices in foreign tongue coming and going out of bare rooms quiet echoes. Time surrounds mysterious mystery mind becomes confused time flows differently minute like an hour day like a second time is timeless finally realize clocks must lie. Thoughts surround pesky flies on a picnic day when they go away deep meditation breathing transparent body shifting elements with shifting mind pain in legs and back burns fire hot hotter and hotter and fire and fire then slowly cools campfire leaving bare, cold ground sitting in a cool blanket of conquered pain transformed into dancing electricity release...little by little... the galloping desire to move mindful that there is no where to go except to the end. *********** What to Remember in School by Kenn Nesbitt Forget that two times four is eight. Forget the name of every state. Forget the answers on the test. Forget which way is east or west. Forget the myths of ancient Rome. Forget to bring your books from home. Forget the words you learned to spell. Forget to hear the recess bell. Forget your homeroom teacher's name. Forget the after-school game. Forget which team's supposed to win. Forget to turn your homework in. Forget the distance to the moon. Forget how many days in June. Forget the capital of France. But don't forget to wear your pants! 19819 From: Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Hi TG, You wrote: "Virtually all the time for us unenlightened one's, it is self-view and delusion guiding thought and therefore an overwhelming sense of self control arises and persists." L: I agree; it certainly seems that way. However, I think the experience of "self" is the experience of cittas with roots (consciousness with attraction or aversion and ignorance). As such any rootless citta would be the experience of not-self. As you know, all cittas that are the result (vipaka) of kamma are rootless. So a fair amount of our experience is the experience of anatta; we just don't notice it, I think, because javana cittas are repeated. Paradoxically, the experience of self is a reality, sometimes known as ego, but "self" itself is only a concept and categorized as not real. In a way, the experience of rootless cittas is better than satipatthana, if the satipatthana is with-roots (roots can also be the opposite of lobha, dosa, moha). An arahant's experience is all rootless. Response? Larry 19820 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga --- Dear TG, A great quote and your comments too. Yes, there are just mental factors, elements that have no desire to arise etc. but are simply arising by conditions and performing their different functions. Wrong view believes that we are desiring but it is simply a conditioned element, lobha performing its function. Or wrong view believes that we are not desiring while it is only alobha performing its function. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi All > > The following quote's from the Visuddhimagga, Chapter 18, # 31... > > "Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless, and without curiosity, > and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and > wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this > mentality-materiality is void, soulless, and without curiosity, and while it > walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it > seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be > regarded. Hence the ancients said: > The mental and material are really here, > But here there is no human being to be found, > For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll, > Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks." > > So according to the Visuddhimagga we cannot even be curious or interested in > things...in the highest sense. Apparently there are just conditions pushing > other conditions along. If it is regarded that "I" am doing it, it is > self-view and delusion guiding that thinking. Virtually all the time for us > unenlightened one's, it is self-view and delusion guiding thought and > therefore an overwhelming sense of self control arises and persists. > > TG > > > 19821 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 0:13pm Subject: Re: Comfort --- Dear Christine, I really liked what Connie said below. Actually when I was in Thailand someone asked me why I was devoted to Buddhism and I said because cuti-citta(death moment) is coming. I think it doesn't matter much whether we are happy or sad in Dhamma; the point is to keep going. Anguttara Nikaya IV.5 Anusota Sutta "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow. " The first step before giving up the attachment to all sensual pleasures is the giving up of attachment to the wrong view of self and so learning about Abhidhamma , which is the taste of anatta, is basic to this. It cannot happen fast. The true good friend in Dhamma is the Buddha and he is still here for us when we study and contemplate his words. RobertK "Life begins on the other side of despair" Jean-paul Satre, The Flies, 1942 In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Hi, Christine ~ > > Ok if I think out loud with you? > > Thanissaro's article at > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/authenticity.html > talks about: > "Those factors, listed in SN LV.5, are: > association with people of integrity, > listening to the true Dhamma, > appropriate attention, and > practice in accordance with the Dhamma. " > > It's a good article and speaks to some of the points you brought up. > > Where I come from, if you were 'in bad form', they'd smile and say > (roughly translated), "Oh, the obstacles and devils are coming for you! > Congratulations! What a great opportunity!" (and tell you to chant > more). The obstacles/devils are any hindrance to your practice... you > get a flat tire on your way to the meditation center, you're discouraged > because your life's not going the way you like, whatever the 'story, > just thinking' is. Not so much that what happens is 'your just > desserts' as it is a chance to take another look at the buffet and pick > another dessert. You have to eat some of everything on your plate? > > I say we practice for death... whether it is the death of the next > instant or the one at the end of our life, because how we die determines > so much of the next life/story. That's what I get from the patisandhi-, > bhavanga- and cuti-cittas all taking the same maranasanna-nimitta from > the last episode. That it is the anatta-ness and impermanence that > provide the hope because if the conditions are right, Anything can > happen. Some days, dropping dead has been the best Anything I could > hope for and sooner or later I remember that this life is the most > precious one imaginable. It's dukkha? Even when the so-called 8- winds > are blowing my way and I could live happily ever after? Whoa! I want > out. Oh, I forgot... I'm already out. How's that possible? I'm > already Deathless and just too stubborn to admit it? > > For one thing, I live in the past. By the time I've made up my mind > about what's going on, it's over. "The mind is the fore runner" and I > lag behind. I think I'm doing something about what comes next, but it's > a joke. That no control thing. How do I get close enough to the > present to See that there is really just cause and condition, > vipaka-namakkhandha and katatta-rupa or whatever it is? Because I think > the answer to me lies in kamma. I just don't quite know how to go about > setting up conditions, trying to organize the future. > > Visible object appeared to be seen. Mind started to run with it. Kamma > jumped in. Depending on how far gone in javana the thought was > determines when the vipaka will come in... this life, next one or some > othertime before The End. The other option is that nothing comes of > it... ahosi, washed out kamma, no vipaka. Anything there? Dead- end. > Oh. Where to be reborn? Suddhavasa plane? I hear you get in the > saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi or panna line to get there. > > 19822 From: robmoult Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 0:27pm Subject: Am I Correct? (was Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one)) Hi All, I have been thinking about (mentally proliferating over?) the question I posed earlier: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: > This Sutta explains that the mind "builds" upon what is perceived > (conceptual proliferation). From an Abhidhamma analysis perspective, > how does a mind conceptually profiferate? I am not asking about > stages of mind-door citta-processes here (construction, perception, > conception, designation, classification, judgement), I am asking > about taking a concept as an input to a single mind-door citta- > process and getting a bigger, clearer, more-complete, more-deluded > concept as an output (which of course acts as an input to another > mind-door citta process). I think that I now have a plausable answer. I suspect that it is the cetasika "sanna" that performs this task. Consider that, according to the Atthasalini, this cetasika has the characteristic of "noting" or "perceiving by an act of general conclusion" and a function of "recognizing what has been previously noted" or "making marks as a condition for repeated perception". The mind-door citta-process is simpler than the sense-door citta process. This cittas involved are: - Vibrating and Arresting Bhavanga Cittas - Mind-Door Adverting Citta (same as Determining Citta in Sense-Door Citta-Process) - Seven Javana Cittas (to create kamma) - Two Registration Cittas (optional; included for a "clear" object, not included for an "obscure" object) There is only one place where the "building onto the object" can happen; the mind-door adverting citta. Any task that this citta has to be performed by one of its cetasikas. The cetasikas in this citta are: - Phassa (contact) - Vedana (feeling); neutral feeling in this case - Sanna (perception/recognition) - Cetana (only coordinates, does not "will" in this rootless citta) - Ekaggata (concentration) - Jivitindriya (life faculty) - Manasikara (attention; the arising of wise attention, yoniso manisikara, conditions kusala javana cittas to follow and the arising of unwise attention ayoniso manasikara, conditions akusala javana cittas to follow) - Vitakka (applied thinking) - Vicara (discursive thinking) - Adhimokkha (Determination / Decision) - Viriya (Energy / Effort / Exertion) If we look down this list, Sanna stands out as being responsible for "building the object". A couple of other interesting observations: - Except for the "smile producing citta of an Arahant" (I am still a bit confused about this one), the mind-door adverting citta is the only rootless citta to include the cetasika of viriya (energy / effort / exertion). - The mind-door adverting citta is a functional (kiriya) citta, which means it is not associated with the workings of kamma. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 19823 From: robmoult Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 0:34pm Subject: Re: Attention Suan: Thanks, Robert Hi Suan, Tried twice, but got the same failure notice with this new email address that I got with the previous email address. Please send me a third email address or advise when the first two are functional again. Metta, Rob M :-) 19824 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 1:27pm Subject: RE: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > I think the experience > of "self" is the experience of cittas with roots > (consciousness with > attraction or aversion and ignorance). As such > any rootless citta would > be the experience of not-self. I think the citta that truly experiences anattaness of realities are those in javana process, arising with wisdom. Even a vipaka citta experiences realities without delusion, it doesn't comprehend the anattaness of realities. Remember the 3 simile of sanna, citta, and wisdom? In a house with a pile of gold coin (or valuable gems), sanna is like a baby, who knows the shape and color and context of the coin, but doesn't know what the coin is. Citta is like a householder. Not only he knows what the baby knows, but also knows what a coin is. A jeweler is like wisdom. He knows what the baby and the householder know, but he also knows the differences between fake and genuine coins. Panna comprehends all around and penetrates, including anattaness of reality which is not comprehended outside the realm of a Buddha. > lobha, dosa, moha). An > arahant's experience is all rootless. Response? The non-jhanic javana process of an Arahant can be two: 1) Maha-kiriya (with all the factors identical to maha-kusala, including the roots) 2) Hasitupada (the rootless smiling citta of an arahant) The Buddha abides in metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha, all rooted cittas. The roots of an arahant are different from non-arahants, the roots don't bind the arahants to samsara. kom 19825 From: Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:16pm Subject: RE: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Hi Kom, I thought "root" means "causes a result". When you say an arahant's javana cittas are with roots does that mean they cause results or is root just another name for javana (repeating) cittas? Can panna arise, in a mundane mode, with an assumption of "self"? If so, this is what I meant by saying vipaka cittas are better, experiencially, than satipatthana if satipatthana is with-roots (causes results). I agree panna as in a magga citta would be the best informed. Still, I think true experience is not rare but common because vipaka cittas are true. And, I think what we usually mean by "self" is lobha, dosa, moha (and their opposites) as roots. So, even on a mundane level, we could see what anatta looks like by catching a glimpse of vipaka cittas. Btw, are all objects (arammana) kamma result (vipaka)? Larry 19826 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Hi Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > Hi Kom, > > I thought "root" means "causes a result". When > you say an arahant's > javana cittas are with roots does that mean they > cause results or is > root just another name for javana (repeating) cittas? Root, hetu, means the 6 cetasikas: lobha, dosa, and moha as asobhana hetus, and alobha, adosa, and amoha as the sobhana hetus. The Arahant javanas, except for Hasitupada, always have the two sobhana roots, and sometimes with wisdom as well. Only roots in Kusala and Akusala can cause vipaka: an arahant has only kiriya and vipaka cittas. Roots are also present in some vipaka cittas (like tadalambana, bhavanga, cuti, patisandhi) which we have, and there too, they don't cause results (because they are already results). > Can panna arise, in a mundane mode, with an > assumption of "self"? If so, Yes, but it is more (to me) like, it is panna that still doesn't know that its object is not-self. > Btw, are all objects (arammana) kamma result (vipaka)? > Aramana can be rupas, cittas, cetasikas, nibbana, and concepts. Some rupa that are aramanas arise because of kamma, but they are not called vipaka. Only some cittas and cetasikas are vipaka. Nibbana is unconditioned. Concept doesn't have its own sabhava (doesn't exist), and it is said to be unconditioned (it doesn't rise, doesn't fall). Some will argue that without the mind, there would be no concept. But really, even with the mind, there is still no concept because it doesn't exist. kom 19827 From: Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 0:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga In a message dated 2/22/2003 11:14:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi TG, > > You wrote: "Virtually all the time for us unenlightened one's, it is > self-view and delusion guiding thought and therefore an overwhelming > sense of self control arises and persists." > > L: I agree; it certainly seems that way. However, I think the experience > of "self" is the experience of cittas with roots (consciousness with > attraction or aversion and ignorance). As such any rootless citta would > be the experience of not-self. As you know, all cittas that are the > result (vipaka) of kamma are rootless. So a fair amount of our > experience is the experience of anatta; we just don't notice it, I > think, because javana cittas are repeated. Paradoxically, the experience > of self is a reality, sometimes known as ego, but "self" itself is only > a concept and categorized as not real. In a way, the experience of > rootless cittas is better than satipatthana, if the satipatthana is > with-roots (roots can also be the opposite of lobha, dosa, moha). An > arahant's experience is all rootless. Response? > > Larry > Hi Larry I think your analysis above is very admirable. But the way I see it, by and large the "reality" of our existence is that we see things as "self." Analyzing what cittas may or may not be actually generating self-view during the minute fractions-of-a-second that they arise and cease; seems to me like analyzing a running automobile engine and saying that the pistons that are not currently being "exploded upon" are not running/driving the engine. Perhaps a technically correct observation, but utterly missing the point of the engine system. Analysis is only for the purpose of making the mind "let go." Its not for the purpose of analysis at all. I think the style of analysis you presented would not help "my" mind "let go." But if it is helping "your" mind "let go," that's great! TG 19828 From: Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 7:07pm Subject: RE: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga H Kom, Thanks for the clarification. I take it hetu doesn't mean causal in all cases. Is lobha considered vipaka if it is experienced objectively? Is the difference between kusala roots and sobhana roots one of mundane and supramudane (lokya, lokuttara)? Why is lobha a root citta? Is it because lobha cetasika is mistaken for a citta (subject)? thanks, Larry 19829 From: Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No-self, no-control, from Visuddhimagga Hi TG, I agree. Philosophical, abstract analysis is a crutch but maybe it could point someone in the direction of valueing simple attentiveness. It amounts to valueing value-neutral. It's hard to make a case for it. Larry 19830 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 8:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Steve, RobM, Sarah, Kom, Howard and All, Steve: Apologies to you and everyone, it has taken a while to respond - worldly conditions, you know.Your reminder that the Abhidhamma was mentioned in the Nun's Pacittiya was great to read, and led to me following up other references. Many thanks. RobM: Missed you too :-) Glad you're active on the dsg again, always look for your posts. Thanks for this one - I feel satisfied after the responses I've received about Abhidhamma being mentioned in Sutta, Vinaya and Commentaries, that it was an integral part of the Dhamma from early in the Buddha's Teaching 'career' - the seventh vassa (rainy season retreat). I'm glad I asked. I'm not yet a great one for the intricacies of Abhidhamma, but I begin to see that it is not possible to understand the Suttas correctly without a basic level of Abhidhammic understanding. I've been browsing your Abhidhamma Class Notes and finding them helpful. Is there any way you can make a link to each of the Chapter headings, so if someone is wanting to look up a particular topic (say Kamma) they can just download the chapter concerned rather than the whole set of lessons? If there isn't, I'm happy the way it is. Sarah: Your posts and the links you provided were extremely helpful. In addition to reading them, I've also read the others in dsg Useful Posts. (The Useful Posts are such a great asset). I'm grateful for the energy you and others have to repeatedly respond on this topic. May you never lose patience. I don't feel discouraged any longer after reading your replies to RobM, Nina and myself on this topic. Thank you. Kom and Howard: Thanks for these bits :-) - H: "for the most part, the Abhidhamma Pitaks contains a detailed systemization of the teachings recorded in the suttas." K: "if we truly know and understand the evidence that is appearing right in front of us, then we are less likely to be shaken: the evidence is indisputable. Wisdom is a truly wonderful quality: it allows us to see things as they are, as the Buddha has taught them." Helps me get things in perspective. :-) metta, Christine 19831 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 8:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comfort Hi Howard and all, I think the underlying issue in my post was the loneliness of day to day practice in a non-buddhist country. Mostly I don't doubt the Teachings, they are truth and mostly I notice growth and change towards understanding (at least when I look back). I have a circle of good friends, I have colleagues trained in therapy and counselling skills (as am I), relatives who would be there for me - but all non-buddhist. They do not have the same outlook or understanding of external or internal conditions, there cannot be the same easy discussion without the need to get off-track in explaining buddhist meanings in detail - even situational ethics are a little different. (e.g. in buddhism ignorance of the law brings a greater penalty, work situations are viewed differently (abortion, euthanasia, violence)), and therefore there is no guidance or empathy relating to the Teachings. I get by on Australian and Queensland Law and my profession's Code of Ethics. [BTW,I would say it is more difficult for a woman than a man to just call in for a talk with the local Bhikkhu.] Thanks for getting me to think more deeply about what this List is to me and what expectations are reasonable to hold of other members. I have met over twenty members now, shared meals and tall stories, teasing and laughter, talked around campfires, swam and bushwalked and cooked with some, travelled in planes trains buses and cars in three or four countries with others, shared rooms with others (Hi Azita, and "friends" of Smokey Joe), hugged them all, met spouses and kids, and even had arguments with a few. I've received friendship, guidance and support from all, and a precious enlargement of my understanding of Dhamma from a few. So, I guess it's a little more than a mailing list to me. But I take your point about what is appropriate to post, and hope I never overstep the mark. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: 19832 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 8:44pm Subject: Re: Comfort Hi Connie and all, Thinking out loud is fine by me - most of my posts are just thinking out loud to get my thoughts in order and try to gain a little understanding. I appreciate the link to Thanissaro's article on the Authenticity of the Pali Canon. The additional links to all the suttas he uses and the link to Study Guide to Stream Entry in the article are a valuable gift and I thank you. With my limited understanding, I agree that there is really no control, especially that there is *no-one* who can decide, independent of conditions, to do anything. I wonder, then, *who it is* and *how it is* that one gets to seek out and listen to the Dhamma and cultivate Dhamma friends in the first place.. Seems to be a decision and intention and action by *someone* there. Yes - I usually regard the obstacles that arise in life as challenges, but lately this old saying springs to mind more often, "I usually take one day at a time - but just lately several days have attacked me at once." :-) Regarding the cuti-cittas - don't you think the idea that a momentary thought flashing into the mind could send one to an unfortunate rebirth, is terrifying? I'm not disputing the fact, but, just imagining a whole life spent in unselfish service to others and a stray thought takes over at death, and one ends up (very briefly) as a laboratory rat. Is there really anything we can do about it, considering 'no control'? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" 19833 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 9:04pm Subject: Re: Comfort Dear Robert, Thank you for the Anusota Sutta "With the Flow" - such a modern expression but a world apart in meaning and consequences. To 'go with the flow' as a colloquial expression meaning to take the easy route free of obstacles, not creating pain for oneself sounds great - but it is, in fact, literally being swept to destruction and continuing the round of suffering rebirths, for the sake of easy 'satisfaction' and 'happiness' now. Something to think about. Perhaps the need for comfort is just the old desire for results, for clarity, for freedom from doubt, for peace that arises and causes unhappiness. When you say "I think it doesn't matter much whether we are happy or sad in Dhamma; the point is to keep going" - your matter-of-factness makes me smile Robert, but, of course, it is so true. Thank you. Death doesn't worry me. You're here one instant and not here the next. But this stuff about the last thought determining the next rebirth does. Somehow most things in Buddhism (once you get used to them) seem to follow a certain logic, a predictable lawfulness, even have a certain justice. But the cuti-citta ... there doesn't seem to be logic, lawfulness or justice - just blind chance. One wonders why consequences could not be closer to the initiating action. Or why there isn't a Statute of Limitations... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, > I really liked what Connie said below. Actually when I was in > Thailand someone asked me why I was devoted to Buddhism and I said > because cuti-citta(death moment) is coming. > I think it doesn't matter much whether we are happy or sad in Dhamma; > the point is to keep going. > Anguttara Nikaya IV.5 > Anusota Sutta > "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the > case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and > doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though > it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in > tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called > the individual who goes against the flow. " > > The first step before giving up the attachment to all sensual > pleasures is the giving up of attachment to the wrong view of self > and so learning about Abhidhamma , which is the taste of anatta, is > basic to this. It cannot happen fast. > The true good friend in Dhamma is the Buddha and he is still here for > us when we study and contemplate his words. > RobertK > "Life begins on the other side of despair" Jean-paul Satre, The > Flies, 1942 19834 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, Co ,no 5 Nina Thanks for this series of translations from the commentary. It is very useful to have this perspective. It helps me realise how I tend to read into a sutta, based on my own (limited) understanding, things that seem to me like the obvious inference but which are not in fact directly stated. By the way, have you noticed how often a reference in the suttas to sitting cross-legged etc is related to anapanasati in paticular, rather than to any other object of samatha? It would be interesting to see to what extent this holds true elsewhere, and if so, to consider what the significance of this would be. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > ... > almsround after all the (other) bhikkhus had gone. The text states: > (Raahulabhadda.m), a~n~natarasmi.m > rukkhamuule nisinna.m, seated at the foot of a certain tree; he saw > him, as was said, when he came afterwards. > Then, why did he exhort him to develop Mindfulness of Breathing? > Because it > is suitable for sitting. It is said that the Thera had not observed > that the Buddha had spoken about the meditation subject of matter > (ruupakamma.t.thaana.m) to Rahula. He thought that for him who was > seated in > that way, glued on his seat and immovable, this subject of > meditation in a > sitting posture was suitable, and thus he spoke to him in that way. > As regards the word, aanaapaanasati, mindfulness of breathing, he > explained: > "After you have grasped inbreathing and outbreathing, and attained > the fourth or the fifth stage of jhana, and you have developed > vipassana, insight, reach arahatship." > ***** > Nina. 19835 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 10:33pm Subject: Re: teachings Hi Star Kid Hilary, Thank you for your letter. So Heidi is a French poodle with a Swiss/German name who lives in the Hong Kong SAR. I hope she doesn't get confused. :-) Did you know that the Buddha spoke Pali? Some of the words he might have used for Dog are: sunakha, suvaana, saarameya, and kukkura. A blessing taught by the Buddha is: "May all beings be happy and safe, May they all have tranquil minds, Whatsoever pulsates with the breath of life - The frail or strong, without exception - The long, the large, the medium-sized, the short, the thin or fat. Those visible, and invisible, those living far away or nearby; Beings who are already born and those yet unborn. May they all be happy!" One of the Buddha's teachings that I like very much is also, at the same time, one I sometimes don't like very much! It's called Kamma. It means that every thought, word and action we mean to do brings a result to us. If I have bad thoughts, words or actions, I don't get away with one single thing, even if I did it in secret. [that's the bit I don't like .:-)]. But it also means that every good thought, every kind word, every kind action is not lost or forgotten. Even if no-one else noticed. [that's the bit I like.] I sometimes think of it as a sort of invisible suitcase ... a Kamma suitcase. If you save a few ants from the bath tub, or share your lunch out of kindness, or stop yourself from stealing something when no-one would ever find out - the record of the actions all get put in the Kamma suitcase. :-) If we gossip about someone, or think mean thoughts, or hit someone, it all gets put in the suitcase also. And whether we want to or not, we always carry the invisible Kamma suitcase with us. But if we don't mean to do something - like if we accidentally wash the bath tub out before we realise there had been ants there, or accidentally sit on someone's glasses and break them - then no record goes in the Kamma suitcase because we didn't mean to do it. The results of all the good and bad words, thoughts and actions start to come out of the suitcase - sometimes straight away, sometimes not - but sooner or later. Then, if it is an unpleasant result that we experience, we need to have patience and understanding. I hope you try to be good! and I hope this makes sense to you Hilary. metta (loving kindness), Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Thank you for your answer. > Heidi is a French Poodle.(i think that's what you > meant .) Can you please tell me more about the > teachings taught by the the Buddha that could be like > blessings? Are there any other teachings taught by the > Buddha that you really like? > > metta, > Hilary 19836 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Herman Thanks for the sutta quote [see below]. You ask: "Are you at odds in any way with the contents of this sutta?" Not at all. But note that the words of the sutta do not go on to explain what is meant here by 'abandon' and 'develop' or, to put it another way, how the 'abandoning' or 'development' in question is to be accomplished. In my view it would be a mistake to assume that these terms are intended to carry their normal everyday meaning. We need to bring to bear what is said elsewhere in the Tipitaka, particularly in the commentary to this sutta (not available in English, unfortunately) to get a correct picture. This is a good example of what is referred to in the texts as a 'teaching in brief'. As to the sort of thing that might be intended here, Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' states that, according to the Patisambhida Magga , 'abandoning' or 'overcoming' (pahaana) is of 5 kinds: "pahána: 'overcoming', abandoning. There are 5 kinds of overcoming: (1) overcoming by repression (vikkhambhana-pahána), i.e. the temporary suspension of the 5 hindrances (nívarana) during the absorptions, (2) overcoming by the opposite (tadanga-pahána), (3) overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahána), (4) overcoming by tranquillization (patipassaddhi-pahána), (5) overcoming by escape (nissarana-pahána)." I have pasted below the detailed description of each kind of abandoning given in the entry. As can be seen from this material, permanent abandoning (i.e., other than the meaning at (1)) and insight ('development'?) are really 2 sides of the same coin. Jon From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' (1) "Among these, 'overcoming by repression' is the pushing back of adverse things, such as the 5 mental hindrances (nívarana), etc., through this or that mental concentration (samádhi), just as a pot thrown into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside.... (2) " 'Overcoming by the opposite' is the overcoming by opposing this or that thing that is to be overcome, by this or that factor of knowledge belonging to insight (vipassaná), just as a lighted lamp dispels the darkness of the night. In this way, the personality-belief (sakkáyaditthi) is overcome by determining the mental and corporeal phenomena ... the view of uncausedness of existence by investigation into the conditions... the idea of eternity by contemplation of impermanency ... the idea of happiness by contemplation of misery.... (3) "If through the knowledge of the noble path the fetters and other evil things cannot continue any longer, just like a tree destroyed by lightning, then such an overcoming is called 'overcoming by destruction' " (Vis.M. XXII, 110f.). (4) When, after the disappearing of the fetters at the entrance into the paths, the fetters, from the moment of fruition (phala) onwards, are forever extinct and stilled, such overcoming is called the 'overcoming by tranquillization'. (5) "The 'overcoming by escape' is identical with the extinction and Nibbána" (Pts.M. I. 27). --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Jon and Howard, ... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-019.html > > "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what > is > unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, > I > would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it > is > possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what > is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were > conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what > is > unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is > conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is > unskillful.' > "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is > skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I > would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is > possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what > is > skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive > to > harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' > But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to > benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" ... > > Are you at odds in any way with the contents of this sutta? 19837 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] AN IV, 41/Right concentration (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: ... > SB: > Right Concentration should be understood as: > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? > There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising &falling > away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such > its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its > origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their > origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its > origination, such its disappearance.' > This is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html > > Jon: > An interesting passage. My paraphrase of it would be as follows: > At any moment of insight into the impermanence (arising and falling > away) of any of the fundamental phenomena (5 khandhas), right > concentration is also being developed. > > I'd be interested to know if this is your reading also. > > Jon > ============================ Howard: This certainly presents "right concentration" as concentrating on the flow of dhammas together with the observing of exactly *what* is arising at any time, and seeing the arising and the falling away. There is no doubt about it. Jon: Could you expand a little on the idea of concentrating on the flow of dhammas. Is it something mentioned in the texts? Just for comparison, the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation reads as follows: "And what is the development of concentration that leads to the destruction of the taints? Here, a monk dwells contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging: 'Such is form, such its arising, such its passing away. ..." The expression 'dwells contemplating' somehow carries a different emphasis than 'remains focussed on'. As I see it, however, it is the aspect of rising and falling away that is the object of this contemplation/focus, rather than the flow of successive [different] dhammas (i.e., it could be in relation to numerous moments of, say, just visible object or seeing consciousness). Howard: There are other places where, with just as little doubt, the Buddha explicitly defines right concentration as the 1st four jhanas. In fact, he explicitly talks about the 4th jhana, the jhana characterized by equanimity, to be the state of perfect malleability and flexibility of mind for dhammic investigation, and this last may be what can lead us out of an apparent contradiction. Jon: I hope you won't think I'm avoiding the issue here, Howard, but I find it of doubtful value to discuss what is said in particular suttas without having the actual text of the sutta, since so much depends on context. Howard: Of course, one answer is that the Buddha considers the term 'right concentration' to be somewhat flexible. But another is that he considers both definitions to be correct and non-contradictory. There are suttas in which the ability to peruse the flow of dhammas remains unabated in the jhanas. (I quoted one once, but I forget which sutta it was. Jon: I'd be interested to know what these suttas are, if you come across the references anytime. Howard: But one sutta suggestive of what I am saying is the Anupada Sutta ... In that sutta, many ordinary-state abilities are said to remain even up through the jhana of no-thingness. With regard to that the sutta states the following: <